you are really hung up on having some sort of slam on my words ain't you?
I don't have the slightest clue what this means.
b/w
I took "whatever the consensus is my thoughts on the issue are close to that of Olivers" to be a blanket statement along the lines of the "I share damn near every sentiment expressed in that song." My apologies if I misinterpreted either of these quotes.
I think that NYOIL also is going at the black women that just play themselves in porn vids as well as internet sites that have black women totally whoring themselves for little to no money. For example, a friend of mine forwarded me a link to a porn video that showed a black woman being gang-banged by some white men with KKK hoods on! They were calling her names that were well beyond degrading. This was video that was done I believe last year. Black women like super head and Melissa Ford whore themselves in videos everyday. There are so many young black girls watching this and copying what they see. As he (NYOIL) said, "we have young queens watching this.." Don't get me wrong, young white girls watch this as well, but I believe that young black girls are affected by these images more. I am a firm believer that most of the very young girls that live in my neighborhood (flatbush) are learning alot of their disgusting behavior from not only their parents, but also the music and videos that they are exposed to on a daily basis. By the way, I am sure their parents are exposed to same shite.
As a 37 year old black man, I def. offended by alot of the music and visuals of black music as NYOIL. I see the effects of it everyday I step outside my apt. I understand that calling for individuals to be lynched is very extreme, but in my opinion these are extreme times. I also don't wanna harp on just black music either because I know it is a small (but significant) part of the black community's misery. This is just my humble opinion!
you are really hung up on having some sort of slam on my words ain't you?
I don't have the slightest clue what this means.
b/w
I took "whatever the consensus is my thoughts on the issue are close to that of Olivers" to be a blanket statement along the lines of the "I share damn near every sentiment expressed in that song." My apologies if I misinterpreted either of these quotes.
if you had read the entire post you'd see I had taken the section I agreed with and then spoke upon it. To hopefully not be comepletely linked with Olivers thoughts I put that they were "close", not exact.
as for Nyoils song, I find it hard to beleive that you really thought I was a proponent of lynchings. The songs message seems to be that the popular rapper characterization of being thugs and crack dealers is one that he is sick of. He also seemed to feel that it has influence on its audience, I agree with both these ideas.
I feel that you came out extremely defensive on this topic straight off the bat. I really don't understand why, and despite the feeling that I should assume its because it hit some sort of sorespot for you I'd rather just ask what your problem with the song is and hope that you give an honest answer.
Did any of you actually LISTENED to the song ? Seems no one pays attention to the verses, or at least watch the video. Most rappers shown in the video don't talk about crack anyway.
Nyoil does NOT talk about "crack rap", the song is about minstrel rap. can anyone seriously refute the fact that in its popular representation rap music has turned ninto a sad minstrel show ?
I think that NYOIL also is going at the black women that just play themselves in porn vids as well as internet sites that have black women totally whoring themselves for little to no money. For example, a friend of mine forwarded me a link to a porn video that showed a black woman being gang-banged by some white men with KKK hoods on! They were calling her names that were well beyond degrading. This was video that was done I believe last year. Black women like super head and Melissa Ford whore themselves in videos everyday. There are so many young black girls watching this and copying what they see. As he (NYOIL) said, "we have young queens watching this.." Don't get me wrong, young white girls watch this as well, but I believe that young black girls are affected by these images more. I am a firm believer that most of the very young girls that live in my neighborhood (flatbush) are learning alot of their disgusting behavior from not only their parents, but also the music and videos that they are exposed to on a daily basis. By the way, I am sure their parents are exposed to same shite.
As a 37 year old black man, I def. offended by alot of the music and visuals of black music as NYOIL. I see the effects of it everyday I step outside my apt. I understand that calling for individuals to be lynched is very extreme, but in my opinion these are extreme times. I also don't wanna harp on just black music either because I know it is a small (but significant) part of the black community's misery. This is just my humble opinion!
Amir
Now all we need is a 34 year old white guy from the northwest to give his opinion on it!
I think that NYOIL also is going at the black women that just play themselves in porn vids as well as internet sites that have black women totally whoring themselves for little to no money. For example, a friend of mine forwarded me a link to a porn video that showed a black woman being gang-banged by some white men with KKK hoods on! They were calling her names that were well beyond degrading. This was video that was done I believe last year. Black women like super head and Melissa Ford whore themselves in videos everyday. There are so many young black girls watching this and copying what they see. As he (NYOIL) said, "we have young queens watching this.." Don't get me wrong, young white girls watch this as well, but I believe that young black girls are affected by these images more. I am a firm believer that most of the very young girls that live in my neighborhood (flatbush) are learning alot of their disgusting behavior from not only their parents, but also the music and videos that they are exposed to on a daily basis. By the way, I am sure their parents are exposed to same shite.
As a 37 year old black man, I def. offended by alot of the music and visuals of black music as NYOIL. I see the effects of it everyday I step outside my apt. I understand that calling for individuals to be lynched is very extreme, but in my opinion these are extreme times. I also don't wanna harp on just black music either because I know it is a small (but significant) part of the black community's misery. This is just my humble opinion!
Amir
Now all we need is a 34 year old white guy from the northwest to give his opinion on it!
I'm staying right here until I hear from THIS guy.
I feel that you came out extremely defensive on this topic straight off the bat. I really don't understand why, and despite the feeling that I should assume its because it hit some sort of sorespot for you I'd rather just ask what your problem with the song is and hope that you give an honest answer.
Rhetoric 101 as practiced by Guzzo:
1. Say something inane;
2. Wait for inanity to be pointed out;
3. Exclaim "I must have touched a sore spot!" to the person that pointed the inanity out.
I feel that you came out extremely defensive on this topic straight off the bat. I really don't understand why, and despite the feeling that I should assume its because it hit some sort of sorespot for you I'd rather just ask what your problem with the song is and hope that you give an honest answer.
I'm not sure how you got that impression, but I've just been trying to clarify whatever it is you're talking about. My mistake.
I feel that you came out extremely defensive on this topic straight off the bat. I really don't understand why, and despite the feeling that I should assume its because it hit some sort of sorespot for you I'd rather just ask what your problem with the song is and hope that you give an honest answer.
Rhetoric 101 as practiced by Guzzo:
1. Say something inane;
2. Wait for inanity to be pointed out;
3. Exclaim "I must have touched a sore spot!" to the person that pointed the inanity out.
remedial rhetoric as practiced by Faux
1. talk shit
2. add nothing of substance to whatever topic is being discussed
3. reiterate that you ahve no point and finish with either "you sound ass hurt", "Poptart" or some other faux_rillism.
now that we know where each other comes from hows about letting Noz speak for himself
i think alot of the people that are downplaying todays music and its imagery are ignoring or just not taking into account the ever increasing impact that media and marketing has on todays population as a whole and even more so on impressionable youth.
I feel that you came out extremely defensive on this topic straight off the bat. I really don't understand why, and despite the feeling that I should assume its because it hit some sort of sorespot for you I'd rather just ask what your problem with the song is and hope that you give an honest answer.
I'm not sure how you got that impression, but I've just been trying to clarify whatever it is you're talking about. My mistake.
I got that impression from your (sarcastic?) questioning of whether I was for lynchings along with the "republican rap" quote credited to you in the video link.
so once again I ask what is your problem with the video and nyoils message?
Did any of you actually LISTENED to the song ? Seems no one pays attention to the verses, or at least watch the video. Most rappers shown in the video don't talk about crack anyway.
Nyoil does NOT talk about "crack rap", the song is about minstrel rap. can anyone seriously refute the fact that in its popular representation rap music has turned ninto a sad minstrel show ?
Here's my thing: the entire industry and tradition of American popular culture is based on the minstrel show. Look at the formation of both American popular song in the 1800s as well as the birth of American cinema, not to mention theater. It ALL goes back to minstrelsy.
Given that, I'm not sure how "popular representation" of any American cultural form has "turned into" anything. That tradition never went away - it just put away the burnt cork.
But more importantly, people act like saying: "oh, that shit is just new minstrelsy" is the END of the conversation, when really, it's the beginning of it. Because if we really REALLY wanted to talk about the legacy of minstrelsy, then we really have to tackle 1) why minstrelsy was so popular for so many years, 2) why did African Americans participate in it and 3) how can we apply the knowledge from both those legacies to current day?
Understand this: the popularity of minstrelsy, in its heyday, was never solely about outright hatred of Blackness. Such currents of racism, no doubt, were part of what it tapped into (we love what we hate sometimes) but really, the appeal of minstrelsy was in the idea that it was portraying something "authentic" about Black life - and the White Americans who patronized the shows were drawn by equal parts fascination and dread. But in a warped way, they thought what they were getting was actually some kind of reality about Black life. (Note: this also explains why freed Blacks on northern cities were also patrons of minstrel shows - it was one of the few places in popular culture where they saw themselves even reflected, even behind blackface. If you think about it, that shit is crazy deep to contemplate.
What minstrels - Black AND White - sold was, in effect, authenticity (as bizarre as that may sound). And in that respect, you can easily understand that the appeal of all kinds of Black culture, from the 1800s to present - is still based in that fascination that Blacks somehow understand or are able to express an "authentic experience" in ways that Whites cannot (b/c of industrialization, b/c of ethnic integration/assimilation, b/c of geographic dispersement). So really, you're not just talking about crack rap or gangsta rap or whateverthefuck "minstrel" rap is (my point is that almost all rap = minstrel rap). You're also talking about what appealed to people about, say, Public Enemy (even if the group themselves were as manufactured and image-conscious as any group in the history of hip-hop), as well as practically every important Black blues musician in the canon as well as practically every soul artist and jazz artist.
Minstrelsy comes out of the realization that culture = capital, both in the literal, monetary sense of the term as well as the figurative idea that culture is its own form of power besides just political or economic power. White minstrels exploited that (and continue to). Black minstrels have as well.
That doesn't make everything hunky dory but my point is that minstrelsy and its legacy runs deep, deep, deep - far deeper than most are willing to admit. Given that, it's far too facile to suggest that getting rid of rappers who rhyme about fried chicken and watermelon would suddenly dispel minstrelsy's hold on the American fascination with Blackness.
Again, just to note, who were the people most turned on by Public Enemy? It wasn't exactly poor people in inner cities. It was largely educated, middle class, non-Black folks. They had cultural critics (hardly the bastion of the urban lumpenproletariat) goin' nuts. Weren't they, in fact, "the power" that PE was trying to fight? Yup. But what sold them on P.E. was the rawness of their sound and attitude - message was immaterial (until it got anti-Semitic but that's a whole different ball of wax). What P.E. sold, what Ice Cube sold, was "realness". They just did it with a Nat Turner lick instead of rehashing Jim Crow (leave that to Jibbs though) but loud, powerful Black men have always been a fascination in our culture for the exact reason so-called "coon rappers" have been.
Let me just reiterate a previous point from another post: if you want to improve society, don't start with the culture industry. It's not where the revolution is ever going to start, let alone gain traction.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
i think alot of the people that are downplaying todays music and its imagery are ignoring or just not taking into account the ever increasing impact that media and marketing has on todays population as a whole and even more so on impressionable youth.
i think alot of the people that are downplaying todays music and its imagery are ignoring or just not taking into account the ever increasing impact that media and marketing has on todays population as a whole and even more so on impressionable youth.
true, but shit is on a whole nother level today, especially with the younger audience... Ie: cellphones, computers, videos, video ipods, game systems, portable game systems, myspace, and on and on ... everthing is either portable or everywhere you turn.
i dislike lynching. even if it's of the metaphorical variety.
I mean, if the song was entitled "Ya'll should get the gas chamber" I wonder what Guzzo would say about that. One could, of course, use the Holocaust as a metaphorical device but whether one SHOULD is a different question. I don't equate Jim Crow-era lynching as being on the same level of the Holocaust but both are terrible, horrific remnants of history that should be tread upon lightly as rhetorical devices.
i dislike lynching. even if it's of the metaphorical variety.
I mean, if the song was entitled "Ya'll should get the gas chamber" I wonder what Guzzo would say about that. One could, of course, use the Holocaust as a metaphorical device but whether one SHOULD is a different question. I don't equate Jim Crow-era lynching as being on the same level of the Holocaust but both are terrible, horrific remnants of history that should be tread upon lightly as rhetorical devices.
Did any of you actually LISTENED to the song ? Seems no one pays attention to the verses, or at least watch the video. Most rappers shown in the video don't talk about crack anyway.
Nyoil does NOT talk about "crack rap", the song is about minstrel rap. can anyone seriously refute the fact that in its popular representation rap music has turned ninto a sad minstrel show ?
Whether the song was about minstrel rap or crack rap (and I think it had to do with both), I will say this: The rappers dude chose to show in the video seemed like very odd choices. It was a real weird, selective group of inidividuals, and definitely made me think dude might have some personal animus towards them (and not the multitude of other obvious examples of both crack and minstrel rap).
i dislike lynching. even if it's of the metaphorical variety.
I mean, if the song was entitled "Ya'll should get the gas chamber" I wonder what Guzzo would say about that. One could, of course, use the Holocaust as a metaphorical device but whether one SHOULD is a different question. I don't equate Jim Crow-era lynching as being on the same level of the Holocaust but both are terrible, horrific remnants of history that should be tread upon lightly as rhetorical devices.
Here's my thing: the entire industry and tradition of American popular culture is based on the minstrel show. Look at the formation of both American popular song in the 1800s as well as the birth of American cinema, not to mention theater. It ALL goes back to minstrelsy.
i dislike lynching. even if it's of the metaphorical variety.
I mean, if the song was entitled "Ya'll should get the gas chamber" I wonder what Guzzo would say about that. One could, of course, use the Holocaust as a metaphorical device but whether one SHOULD is a different question. I don't equate Jim Crow-era lynching as being on the same level of the Holocaust but both are terrible, horrific remnants of history that should be tread upon lightly as rhetorical devices.
maybe this is where my disconnect from Noz's POV began.
I didn't take the chorus as literal. I took it as this guy reaching for some shocking words that would best express how pissed he was at the rap situation he was addressing. For me the song was more about the actual verses and his message of popular rap being a major influence on kids and his questioning of whether civil rights heroes of the past would be happy with the portrayals they are seeing today.
I think if there was some bizarro world where Jews were the most recognized rappers of the day and they were portraying themselves as crack dealers, gangsters, murderers, and misogynists and Jewoil came out with some track attacking this imagery my views would be similar.
The chorus isn't the whole song, I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bath water.
isn't advocating violence (in this case lynching) against people whose views you do not agree with at least as bad as advocating drug sales, if not worse?
Comments
I don't have the slightest clue what this means.
b/w
I took "whatever the consensus is my thoughts on the issue are close to that of Olivers" to be a blanket statement along the lines of the "I share damn near every sentiment expressed in that song." My apologies if I misinterpreted either of these quotes.
LET'S KICK IT LIKE TAE BO
TAE PENG YAO MING
YO HUN GREE FO LEN CHING
DIS MO BE TAE PENG LEN CHING
Typing Lynching
LET'S KICK IT LIKE TAE PENG
BO! BO! BO!
officerofficerofficerOVERSEER
GREE TINGs
FROM THE TAE PENG KING HUN
I drown fools in the Secretary Pool
As a 37 year old black man, I def. offended by alot of the music and visuals of black music as NYOIL. I see the effects of it everyday I step outside my apt. I understand that calling for individuals to be lynched is very extreme, but in my opinion these are extreme times. I also don't wanna harp on just black music either because I know it is a small (but significant) part of the black community's misery. This is just my humble opinion!
Amir
if you had read the entire post you'd see I had taken the section I agreed with and then spoke upon it. To hopefully not be comepletely linked with Olivers thoughts I put that they were "close", not exact.
as for Nyoils song, I find it hard to beleive that you really thought I was a proponent of lynchings. The songs message seems to be that the popular rapper characterization of being thugs and crack dealers is one that he is sick of. He also seemed to feel that it has influence on its audience, I agree with both these ideas.
I feel that you came out extremely defensive on this topic straight off the bat. I really don't understand why, and despite the feeling that I should assume its because it hit some sort of sorespot for you I'd rather just ask what your problem with the song is and hope that you give an honest answer.
Did any of you actually LISTENED to the song ? Seems no one pays attention to the verses, or at least watch the video. Most rappers shown in the video don't talk about crack anyway.
Nyoil does NOT talk about "crack rap", the song is about minstrel rap. can anyone seriously refute the fact that in its popular representation rap music has turned ninto a sad minstrel show ?
Now all we need is a 34 year old white guy from the northwest to give his opinion on it!
I'm staying right here until I hear from THIS guy.
Rhetoric 101 as practiced by Guzzo:
1. Say something inane;
2. Wait for inanity to be pointed out;
3. Exclaim "I must have touched a sore spot!" to the person that pointed the inanity out.
hell yes.
I was trying to make an example of what I was saying earlier. People didn't seem to understand what I was getting at.
I'm not sure how you got that impression, but I've just been trying to clarify whatever it is you're talking about. My mistake.
remedial rhetoric as practiced by Faux
1. talk shit
2. add nothing of substance to whatever topic is being discussed
3. reiterate that you ahve no point and finish with either "you sound ass hurt", "Poptart" or some other faux_rillism.
now that we know where each other comes from hows about letting Noz speak for himself
IN THE GAME OF TAE PENG
HE WHO TYPES LAST LAUGH FIRST!
I got that impression from your (sarcastic?) questioning of whether I was for lynchings along with the "republican rap" quote credited to you in the video link.
so once again I ask what is your problem with the video and nyoils message?
I don't believe I expressed an opinion on nyoil or his message in this thread.
Here's my thing: the entire industry and tradition of American popular culture is based on the minstrel show. Look at the formation of both American popular song in the 1800s as well as the birth of American cinema, not to mention theater. It ALL goes back to minstrelsy.
Given that, I'm not sure how "popular representation" of any American cultural form has "turned into" anything. That tradition never went away - it just put away the burnt cork.
But more importantly, people act like saying: "oh, that shit is just new minstrelsy" is the END of the conversation, when really, it's the beginning of it. Because if we really REALLY wanted to talk about the legacy of minstrelsy, then we really have to tackle 1) why minstrelsy was so popular for so many years, 2) why did African Americans participate in it and 3) how can we apply the knowledge from both those legacies to current day?
Understand this: the popularity of minstrelsy, in its heyday, was never solely about outright hatred of Blackness. Such currents of racism, no doubt, were part of what it tapped into (we love what we hate sometimes) but really, the appeal of minstrelsy was in the idea that it was portraying something "authentic" about Black life - and the White Americans who patronized the shows were drawn by equal parts fascination and dread. But in a warped way, they thought what they were getting was actually some kind of reality about Black life. (Note: this also explains why freed Blacks on northern cities were also patrons of minstrel shows - it was one of the few places in popular culture where they saw themselves even reflected, even behind blackface. If you think about it, that shit is crazy deep to contemplate.
What minstrels - Black AND White - sold was, in effect, authenticity (as bizarre as that may sound). And in that respect, you can easily understand that the appeal of all kinds of Black culture, from the 1800s to present - is still based in that fascination that Blacks somehow understand or are able to express an "authentic experience" in ways that Whites cannot (b/c of industrialization, b/c of ethnic integration/assimilation, b/c of geographic dispersement). So really, you're not just talking about crack rap or gangsta rap or whateverthefuck "minstrel" rap is (my point is that almost all rap = minstrel rap). You're also talking about what appealed to people about, say, Public Enemy (even if the group themselves were as manufactured and image-conscious as any group in the history of hip-hop), as well as practically every important Black blues musician in the canon as well as practically every soul artist and jazz artist.
Minstrelsy comes out of the realization that culture = capital, both in the literal, monetary sense of the term as well as the figurative idea that culture is its own form of power besides just political or economic power. White minstrels exploited that (and continue to). Black minstrels have as well.
That doesn't make everything hunky dory but my point is that minstrelsy and its legacy runs deep, deep, deep - far deeper than most are willing to admit. Given that, it's far too facile to suggest that getting rid of rappers who rhyme about fried chicken and watermelon would suddenly dispel minstrelsy's hold on the American fascination with Blackness.
Again, just to note, who were the people most turned on by Public Enemy? It wasn't exactly poor people in inner cities. It was largely educated, middle class, non-Black folks. They had cultural critics (hardly the bastion of the urban lumpenproletariat) goin' nuts. Weren't they, in fact, "the power" that PE was trying to fight? Yup. But what sold them on P.E. was the rawness of their sound and attitude - message was immaterial (until it got anti-Semitic but that's a whole different ball of wax). What P.E. sold, what Ice Cube sold, was "realness". They just did it with a Nat Turner lick instead of rehashing Jim Crow (leave that to Jibbs though) but loud, powerful Black men have always been a fascination in our culture for the exact reason so-called "coon rappers" have been.
Let me just reiterate a previous point from another post: if you want to improve society, don't start with the culture industry. It's not where the revolution is ever going to start, let alone gain traction.
true, but shit is on a whole nother level today, especially with the younger audience... Ie: cellphones, computers, videos, video ipods, game systems, portable game systems, myspace, and on and on ... everthing is either portable or everywhere you turn.
ok, ok I can see that I am going to have to play games to get an answer.
did you or did you not make this statement about the song?
"this is the most ignorant song i???ve ever heard.
republican rap is out of control.
Comment by noz 10.14.06"
and if this is you, why did you make this statement?
I mean, if the song was entitled "Ya'll should get the gas chamber" I wonder what Guzzo would say about that. One could, of course, use the Holocaust as a metaphorical device but whether one SHOULD is a different question. I don't equate Jim Crow-era lynching as being on the same level of the Holocaust but both are terrible, horrific remnants of history that should be tread upon lightly as rhetorical devices.
Oh snap, did I just extend this another 5 pages?
That's just baiting him.
Whether the song was about minstrel rap or crack rap (and I think it had to do with both), I will say this: The rappers dude chose to show in the video seemed like very odd choices. It was a real weird, selective group of inidividuals, and definitely made me think dude might have some personal animus towards them (and not the multitude of other obvious examples of both crack and minstrel rap).
I'd like to know why it took 6 pages to get here.
Are you talking specifically about black music?
Even if you are, I disagree entirely.
maybe this is where my disconnect from Noz's POV began.
I didn't take the chorus as literal. I took it as this guy reaching for some shocking words that would best express how pissed he was at the rap situation he was addressing. For me the song was more about the actual verses and his message of popular rap being a major influence on kids and his questioning of whether civil rights heroes of the past would be happy with the portrayals they are seeing today.
I think if there was some bizarro world where Jews were the most recognized rappers of the day and they were portraying themselves as crack dealers, gangsters, murderers, and misogynists and Jewoil came out with some track attacking this imagery my views would be similar.
The chorus isn't the whole song, I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bath water.