My point is that we shouldn't treat him like he's insane. An insane person, by virtue of the term, is not completely responsible for his or her actions (hence, an insanity plea in a murder case).
Rather, I think we should treat Richards as a completely rational and sane person who also harbors some ugly racist views. Which, unfortunately, is reflective of millions of other people who are similarly rational and sane people who harbor some completely reprehensible views on other people and should thus, be held accountable for them.
That's why I find this whole, "I'm anti-semitic/homophobic/racist/sexist BUT I'm also an alcoholic" defense to be such bullshit: it's people avoiding responsibility for their actions.
So yeah, I'm just saying: let's not treat Richards like he's crazy. He may have lost his temper but I think what he said is actually the realest revelation of what's in his mind rather than the idea that he was temporarily taken over by aliens.
This is 2 pages buried here, but just to respond to your response.
Last I checked you weren't a psychologist. Neither am I. So assessing Richards' mental state is really neither here nor there. Still, I'd say Richards may have some psychological issues on top of harboring racist views. This isn't to my mind the same as "excusing" his actions (or even more thorny, whether he can be "forgiven").
Racist tendencies are still present in US society, which he doubtless harbors. But his expression of such sentiments was way off the charts. We aren't talking about hanging a union jack here, or things said over drinks at a bar. He is a professional comedian who publicly lost it. Which is why a video record hits home: he may indeed be a "sane" racist in the privacy of his home, but his expression of these views was completely taboo, and he knows it. That's the insane part, and what (I think) you and fatback were going back and forth about, and what I meant by my statement earlier. I just don't think that there's any explanation he can give that will really explain anything.
thats that sienfield curse. Everybody who worked on that show are living it pretty rough right now. larry crane did alright and sienfield doesn't really need to do anything, but all the supporting characters got the shaft. You know michael richards is mad bitter and salty now which probably was the root of this tirade. It must be terrible to find a job when everybody just pigeon holes you telling you to just do "kramer". pretty much career suicide after sienfield. hence major case of the salty balls.
I see/hear things like this and usually follow this chain of thought. I have witnessed many examples of when people get really angry, or upset, or are on edge, they lash out at the most obvious thing, and that's often gender (you stupid bitch), homophobia (that's gay, or the other f word) or race (enter the N word). It's often a good indicator of deep seated prejudice because we are not that in-control of our usual social monitors!
I can't believe anyone would so exercise themselves in the interests of a single common racist.
And yet, I seem to recall how certain people on this board were quick to forgive an actual murderer like Tookie Williams, apparently because he was really contrite.
sounds like the only valid excuse I can think of, were you expecting him to say something else?
and another question, would any of you "Fuck-a-Kramer" types going to forgive him if he said the right combination of words?
PS this thread really is soulstrut Catnip, I compare this to when Bill O'Reilly revels in another "thugged out rapper" getting arrested on drug or violence charges.
I can't believe anyone would so exercise themselves in the interests of a single common racist.
And yet, I seem to recall how certain people on this board were quick to forgive an actual murderer like Tookie Williams, apparently because he was really contrite.
I can't believe anyone would so exercise themselves in the interests of a single common racist.
And yet, I seem to recall how certain people on this board were quick to forgive an actual murderer like Tookie Williams, apparently because he was really contrite.
My point is that we shouldn't treat him like he's insane. An insane person, by virtue of the term, is not completely responsible for his or her actions (hence, an insanity plea in a murder case).
Rather, I think we should treat Richards as a completely rational and sane person who also harbors some ugly racist views. Which, unfortunately, is reflective of millions of other people who are similarly rational and sane people who harbor some completely reprehensible views on other people and should thus, be held accountable for them.
That's why I find this whole, "I'm anti-semitic/homophobic/racist/sexist BUT I'm also an alcoholic" defense to be such bullshit: it's people avoiding responsibility for their actions.
So yeah, I'm just saying: let's not treat Richards like he's crazy. He may have lost his temper but I think what he said is actually the realest revelation of what's in his mind rather than the idea that he was temporarily taken over by aliens.
This is 2 pages buried here, but just to respond to your response.
Last I checked you weren't a psychologist. Neither am I. So assessing Richards' mental state is really neither here nor there. Still, I'd say Richards may have some psychological issues on top of harboring racist views. This isn't to my mind the same as "excusing" his actions (or even more thorny, whether he can be "forgiven").
Racist tendencies are still present in US society, which he doubtless harbors. But his expression of such sentiments was way off the charts. We aren't talking about hanging a union jack here, or things said over drinks at a bar. He is a professional comedian who publicly lost it. Which is why a video record hits home: he may indeed be a "sane" racist in the privacy of his home, but his expression of these views was completely taboo, and he knows it. That's the insane part, and what (I think) you and fatback were going back and forth about, and what I meant by my statement earlier. I just don't think that there's any explanation he can give that will really explain anything.
Eh, obviously none of us knows whether or not Richards is insane, just as nobody reading the previous exchange really knows whether or not you or Oliver is insane, but I'm afraid there is nothing extraordinary enough about his behavior to suggest that he is. People blurt out ill-advised things all the time.
the difference between this and the tookie case is that kramer is not receiving any criminal punishment for his actions while the tookie case was primarily a for/against death penalty discussion. i don't think anyone ever said "oh shit he murdered some people that's okay."
And yet, I seem to recall how certain people on this board were quick to forgive an actual murderer like Tookie Williams, apparently because he was really contrite.
Oh wait... I take that back... he wasn't contrite at all was he?
I can't believe anyone would so exercise themselves in the interests of a single common racist.
And yet, I seem to recall how certain people on this board were quick to forgive an actual murderer like Tookie Williams, apparently because he was really contrite.
If Kramer writes some Chilrden's Books everything will be cool.
the difference between this and the tookie case is that kramer is not receiving any criminal punishment for his actions while the tookie case was primarily a for/against death penalty discussion. i don't think anyone ever said "oh shit he murdered some people that's okay."
No doubt. This is just a silly tangent for cats who wanna try and score points and not adress the issue.
the difference between this and the tookie case is that kramer is not receiving any criminal punishment for his actions while the tookie case was primarily a for/against death penalty discussion. i don't think anyone ever said "oh shit he murdered some people that's okay."
I'm not optimistic about the chances of rational discussion with pro-death penalty Kramer apologists. Especially ones that wear their Christianity on their sleeves.
the difference between this and the tookie case is that kramer is not receiving any criminal punishment for his actions
And nor should he. Unless you want to start making "hate speech" illegal.
while the tookie case was primarily a for/against death penalty discussion. i don't think anyone ever said "oh shit he murdered some people that's okay."
No, but there were people who were forgiving of him. And that's what we're talking about.
sayin'. the fact there's is any type of speculation needed is why I really hate being apart of this place most of the time.
This is not impressive; wasn't the first time you said it, nor this time.
I mean, why would we want to question something? We shouldn't try to actually 'think' about something, maybe consider it from another angle? Man, that shit is a DRAG! And, where does THAT lead? Discussion? Debate? *gasp* Maybe even...LEARNING???
C'mon! GTFOOHWBS! Where my breakz at? We can all agree on Grover Washington, right?!
I'm not optimistic about the chances of rational discussion with pro-death penalty Kramer apologists. Especially ones that wear their Christianity on their sleeves.
please be serious.
there is hardly any christian flag waving on this board
It'd be wise for you to take a look at where you're going. I haven't put your beliefs down, so please leave mine alone.
If you don't want to see your beliefs "put down," then don't introduce them in a discussion where they don't belong. You're welcome to attempt to put down any of my beliefs that you take issue with--I'm sufficiently secure in my opinions that I don't find a challenge frightening.
And I'm definitely not pro-death penalty. Where'd you get that idea from?
Oh, from you cosigning the introduction of it to this thread. I can't help but assume that somebody who equates being opposed to the death penalty on a policy basis with personally "forgiving" people on death row (and is opposed to such forgiveness) has no real understanding of the arguments against it and is therefore in favor it.
You know, as much as I love to look at Sanford & Son, that Youtube fragment that Guzzo posted takes a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG[/b] time to finish and prove its' point (c'mon, Guzzo, people wanna at least read the rest of the damn thread before you derail it with a ten-minute clip ), but having seen every S&S episode a thousand times, I know where its' going.
I will say this...there were quite a few episodes where Redd Foxx used the "n*****" word. Nick At Nite usually edits that word out (but it stays in when local television runs it)...
Jesus, you weren't challenging my beliefs at all; you were putting them down. Do you think the people on here are that stupid?
I never gave any opinion whatsoever on the death penalty. What I did was agree with the hypocrisy of people willing to extend forgiveness to a convicted murderer while raking me over the coals for wanting to do the same thing to a piece of shit racist.
Did I ever say Tookie deserved condemnation in place of forgiveness? No. Did I ever say Tookie deserved to be put to death? No.
I'd start to worry about saving face if I were you. You aren't looking so good in this thread.
Comments
This is 2 pages buried here, but just to respond to your response.
Last I checked you weren't a psychologist. Neither am I. So assessing Richards' mental state is really neither here nor there. Still, I'd say Richards may have some psychological issues on top of harboring racist views. This isn't to my mind the same as "excusing" his actions (or even more thorny, whether he can be "forgiven").
Racist tendencies are still present in US society, which he doubtless harbors. But his expression of such sentiments was way off the charts. We aren't talking about hanging a union jack here, or things said over drinks at a bar. He is a professional comedian who publicly lost it. Which is why a video record hits home: he may indeed be a "sane" racist in the privacy of his home, but his expression of these views was completely taboo, and he knows it. That's the insane part, and what (I think) you and fatback were going back and forth about, and what I meant by my statement earlier. I just don't think that there's any explanation he can give that will really explain anything.
"Kramer" update: He just A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/11/20/richards.epithets.ap/index.html">apologized, saying he "lost his cool." Pretty flimsy excuse.
Like most of these cats.
I see/hear things like this and usually follow this chain of thought. I have witnessed many examples of when people get really angry, or upset, or are on edge, they lash out at the most obvious thing, and that's often gender (you stupid bitch), homophobia (that's gay, or the other f word) or race (enter the N word). It's often a good indicator of deep seated prejudice because we are not that in-control of our usual social monitors!
And yet, I seem to recall how certain people on this board were quick to forgive an actual murderer like Tookie Williams, apparently because he was really contrite.
sounds like the only valid excuse I can think of, were you expecting him to say something else?
and another question, would any of you "Fuck-a-Kramer" types going to forgive him if he said the right combination of words?
PS this thread really is soulstrut Catnip, I compare this to when Bill O'Reilly revels in another "thugged out rapper" getting arrested on drug or violence charges.
I wont forget.
How dare you point this out!
(As if anyone's even going to touch it.)
Eh, obviously none of us knows whether or not Richards is insane, just as nobody reading the previous exchange really knows whether or not you or Oliver is insane, but I'm afraid there is nothing extraordinary enough about his behavior to suggest that he is. People blurt out ill-advised things all the time.
Oh wait... I take that back... he wasn't contrite at all was he?
If Kramer writes some Chilrden's Books everything will be cool.
No doubt. This is just a silly tangent for cats who wanna try and score points and not adress the issue.
I'm not optimistic about the chances of rational discussion with pro-death penalty Kramer apologists. Especially ones that wear their Christianity on their sleeves.
And nor should he.
Unless you want to start making "hate speech" illegal.
No, but there were people who were forgiving of him. And that's what we're talking about.
example? i really don't recall much discussion beyond whether or not he should be executed.
"Insanity"
This is not impressive; wasn't the first time you said it, nor this time.
I mean, why would we want to question something? We shouldn't try to actually 'think' about something, maybe consider it from another angle? Man, that shit is a DRAG! And, where does THAT lead? Discussion? Debate? *gasp* Maybe even...LEARNING???
C'mon! GTFOOHWBS! Where my breakz at? We can all agree on Grover Washington, right?!
please be serious.
there is hardly any christian flag waving on this board
And I'm definitely not pro-death penalty. Where'd you get that idea from?
Faux is a dick....that's his schtick.
I laugh him off....you should too.
I'd hate to think that only certain religions are respected here.
Being Christian is nothing to be ashamed of.
Ignore the ignorance.
If you don't want to see your beliefs "put down," then don't introduce them in a discussion where they don't belong. You're welcome to attempt to put down any of my beliefs that you take issue with--I'm sufficiently secure in my opinions that I don't find a challenge frightening.
Oh, from you cosigning the introduction of it to this thread. I can't help but assume that somebody who equates being opposed to the death penalty on a policy basis with personally "forgiving" people on death row (and is opposed to such forgiveness) has no real understanding of the arguments against it and is therefore in favor it.
Location?
I will say this...there were quite a few episodes where Redd Foxx used the "n*****" word. Nick At Nite usually edits that word out (but it stays in when local television runs it)...
I never gave any opinion whatsoever on the death penalty. What I did was agree with the hypocrisy of people willing to extend forgiveness to a convicted murderer while raking me over the coals for wanting to do the same thing to a piece of shit racist.
Did I ever say Tookie deserved condemnation in place of forgiveness? No.
Did I ever say Tookie deserved to be put to death? No.
I'd start to worry about saving face if I were you. You aren't looking so good in this thread.