MJ is back in the studio recording. Nothing he's done will prevent his album from getting released. People may not choose to buy it but do you think any institutions - retail stores, radio stations, music critics, etc. - will boycott an album by him? I'm not saying he can still pull in Thriller-numbers but MJ's career is far from dead.
As for Tom Cruise: he hit a road bump, got a scratch, maybe a sprained ankle from it. Career suicide though? Hardly. Look at the development deal he just signed.
I just remembered: Wasn't there a thread a long time ago where everyone here was trying to justify Elvis Costello's infamous use of the word? If I remember correctly, it was OK because he was drunk, wanted to piss off Stephen Stills and not everyone who has used that word is a racist or something to that effect.
I just remembered: Wasn't there a thread a long time ago where everyone here was trying to justify Elvis Costello's infamous use of the word? If I remember correctly, it was OK because he was drunk, wanted to piss off Stephen Stills and not everyone who has used that word is a racist or something to that effect.
I think the important thing to remember here is that what happened with Richards is now captured on video and proliferates online. The experience of him going off this tirade is thus experienced by anyone who wants to view it. In comparison, Costello would have to have called Ray Charles "a blind, ignorant n*****" on live TV or in a taped concert where his comment could then be captured and rebroadcast online and on TV.
Had the latter happened to Costello, I think people would have been far less generous - not /c what he said was any less offensive, but rather, the way in which we experience that racism is less immediate.
MJ is back in the studio recording. Nothing he's done will prevent his album from getting released. People may not choose to buy it but do you think any institutions - retail stores, radio stations, music critics, etc. - will boycott an album by him? I'm not saying he can still pull in Thriller-numbers but MJ's career is far from dead.
As for Tom Cruise: he hit a road bump, got a scratch, maybe a sprained ankle from it. Career suicide though? Hardly. Look at the development deal he just signed.
Well, are you talking about a "career suicide" or an industry blacklisting? Because no matter if their respective industries decide to keep playing ball with you, it's ultimately up to the public. And it's obvious that both the careers of Jacko and Cruise have suffered drastically as a result. There is no doubt about that. MJ's moreso, but that's been in steady decline over the years. But going from being THE number one selling artist of all time to the state he's in now is pretty damn remarkable. Face it, the guy's got a few fans in Europe. That's it. His career, is, for all intents and puposes... MORTE.
Cruise, on the other hand just seemed to crash and burn very quickly. Yes, he just signed a big deal with UA. But come on, this guy (like Mike) was the king of the world in his profession. Bar none. And in a very short time he's managed to alienate a HUGE contingent of his fanbase... women.... by making a few stupid and careless remarks. He's compounded his situation by acting weirder and weirder (I'll spare you the list). Roger Friedman just dubbed him the "new MJ" ironically enough. All of this has translated into bad box office. And that is, after all, the bottom line. Yes, there'll always be someone in the game willing to work wth him and spend $$$ on him. Yes. He WILL continue to generate $$$ in the US and around the world. But irreparable damage HAS been done, Oliver. To the point where I don't see him ever regaining his stature of box office king again. So no, his career is not "dead" dead. But, yeah. It is.
But irreparable damage HAS been done, Oliver. To the point where I don't see him ever regaining his stature of box office king again. So no, his career is not "dead" dead. But, yeah. It is.
Clearly, we're getting way off the original topic of the thread but hey, I'm game to play this out:
What you're saying is that if Tom Cruise is no longer the #1 box office king, that equals a dead career? That's seems like a pretty high bar to set...does that mean anyone who once was #1 but is no longer, by definition, has a moribund career?
Cruise couldn't have stayed on top forever - as he got older, there was simply bound to be someone who was going to become more popular than he was, even if he never acted like an idiot.
That wouldn't have meant his career was effectively dead. Cruise's MI3 didn't pull an Heaven's Gate. It underperformed substantially but we're talking about one film. He's made bumbles before (what was that shitty racing film, he did?) only to come back on top. SO I think it remains to be seen how badly Cruise has hurt himself by acting like an ass.
Personally, I HOPE you're actually right Paul. I'm not rooting for Tom. But I think it's too early to know how permanent the damage is.
I'm loving the lack of forgiveness and grace in this thread.
sayin'...
lotta first stone casting armchair judges up in here...
gonna clarify my statement. He's not justified in what he said. But, everyone sitting here cocks-in-hand and drooling over the precise analysis of career damage he's done seems so small and petty.
I'm loving the lack of forgiveness and grace in this thread.
sayin'...
lotta first stone casting armchair judges up in here...
gonna clarify my statement. He's not justified in what he said. But, everyone sitting here cocks-in-hand and drooling over the precise analysis of career damage he's done seems so small and petty.
i dont really care about the career damage but dude should have at least gotten his ass kicked
I'm loving the lack of forgiveness and grace in this thread.
What is there to forgive? Can you rehabilitate a racist person? I think it's safe to say his views are ingrained into his being at this point in his life.
to echo mord, i am really really surprised no one chucked a bottle on stage at his stupid ass. i would like to think that i would have.
i think comedian's often find it useful to shock, surprise and offend...but this shit was no comedy, just a meltdown. but all in all, im glad when shit like that happens, cause its just true colors manifesting and its good for people to see what lurks just below the surface of A LOT of people, black and white. believe it. i saw that shit just last friday in a meeting when a new hire absolutely screamed on a white girl (been working at a school for 2 years) that she will NEVER have the love and connection to the kids that he has, since he's black (and 2 weeks on the job). sooo many people got some prejudiced shit, ready to uncoil and snap out.id rather see it, then be around people who hide their racism because they know it would be unacceptable in public.
I'm loving the lack of forgiveness and grace in this thread.
sayin'...
lotta first stone casting armchair judges up in here...
gonna clarify my statement. He's not justified in what he said. But, everyone sitting here cocks-in-hand and drooling over the precise analysis of career damage he's done seems so small and petty.
i dont really care about the career damage but dude should have at least gotten his ass kicked
Well said. Good point. We all would have learned a lot from that; real chance for growth there. A real moment for race relations...
I'm loving the lack of forgiveness and grace in this thread.
sayin'...
lotta first stone casting armchair judges up in here...
gonna clarify my statement. He's not justified in what he said. But, everyone sitting here cocks-in-hand and drooling over the precise analysis of career damage he's done seems so small and petty.
show me the soulstrut debate that has shown more than one view
Is there a word or phrase that a black man can use towards a caucasion that would justify throwing the "N" word back??
no
I was reading the youtube comments under his video for as long as I could take it, and alot of people were like "but he called him a cracker too so he's just as wrong!".
No.
Not saying calling someone a cracker is ok, but the sheer history of that word outweighs any slur you could ever throw at a white person.
Is there a word or phrase that a black man can use towards a caucasion that would justify throwing the "N" word back??
no
I was reading the youtube comments under his video for as long as I could take it, and alot of people were like "but he called him a cracker too so he's just as wrong!".
No.
The sheer history of that word outweighs any slur you could ever throw at a white person.
Understood...
So do you think if Richards had used other well known and hated racial slurs other than the "N" word he would not be in such hot water???
more talented (non-black) comedians have made careers out of dropping the n-bomb. discuss.
I'd say it's about context. Dude was just venomous and flipping out, not doing his act. What comedians are you talking about tho? I can't think of many if any [/no Silverman].
more talented (non-black) comedians have made careers out of dropping the n-bomb. discuss.
context
it's not a context issue, it's an issue of allowing certain people to use the word anyway they want, even if they are insulting their own culture and heritage.
plain and simple the public holds certain standards based on color
more talented (non-black) comedians have made careers out of dropping the n-bomb. discuss.
Uh...what? Please to tell me you're not being an apologists for dude.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Here's what I want to know....
Is there a word or phrase that a black man can use towards a caucasion that would justify throwing the "N" word back??
no
I was reading the youtube comments under his video for as long as I could take it, and alot of people were like "but he called him a cracker too so he's just as wrong!".
No.
The sheer history of that word outweighs any slur you could ever throw at a white person.
Understood...
So do you think if Richards had used other well known and hated racial slurs other than the "N" word he would not be in such hot water???
Dunno. You might wanna ask Mel Gibson.
Even if he were just tossing n-bombs at random, rather than directing them at a particular black person in the audience, how's he (or anyone else) going to act surprised if people get angry or offended? Or that, if they do, it's somehow their fault, and they just need to be more "forgiving" and more considerate of "race relations"? Excuse me for not being Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela, but fuck Michael Richards - if he's not a racist prick, let him prove it with his actions.
more talented (non-black) comedians have made careers out of dropping the n-bomb. discuss.
context
it's not a context issue, it's an issue of allowing certain people to use the word anyway they want, even if they are insulting their own culture and heritage.
plain and simple the public holds certain standards based on color
society does hold certain standards based on color but i guarantee you there wouldnt be a huge thing about this if he randomly said "nigger" in a skit compared to yelling it at the audience. context, plain and simple.
Is there a word or phrase that a black man can use towards a caucasion that would justify throwing the "N" word back??
no
I saw the title of this thread and that it was four pages long, and I knew Rockadelic was gonna be up in here talking some stupid schitt.
And I would like to extend an invitation to all you little dudes talking this "he's clearly insane/his career is over" garbage to join the rest of us in the real world.
He's not insane--he's just a racist piece of schitt. It's a common phenomenon; no need to resort to extreme psychiatric diagnoses to explain it. Also: this is the event that will spark a comeback for him--just watch.
Uh...what? Please to tell me you're not being an apologists for dude.
No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. Shit is beyond fucked up. I'm just wondering how much of the outraged public will berate richards for this and then turn around cosign ironically racist comedians like Silverman or Carlos Mencia.
Comments
I have to disagree.
MJ is back in the studio recording. Nothing he's done will prevent his album from getting released. People may not choose to buy it but do you think any institutions - retail stores, radio stations, music critics, etc. - will boycott an album by him? I'm not saying he can still pull in Thriller-numbers but MJ's career is far from dead.
As for Tom Cruise: he hit a road bump, got a scratch, maybe a sprained ankle from it. Career suicide though? Hardly. Look at the development deal he just signed.
I think the important thing to remember here is that what happened with Richards is now captured on video and proliferates online. The experience of him going off this tirade is thus experienced by anyone who wants to view it. In comparison, Costello would have to have called Ray Charles "a blind, ignorant n*****" on live TV or in a taped concert where his comment could then be captured and rebroadcast online and on TV.
Had the latter happened to Costello, I think people would have been far less generous - not /c what he said was any less offensive, but rather, the way in which we experience that racism is less immediate.
Well, are you talking about a "career suicide" or an industry blacklisting?
Because no matter if their respective industries decide to keep playing ball with you, it's ultimately up to the public.
And it's obvious that both the careers of Jacko and Cruise have suffered drastically as a result.
There is no doubt about that.
MJ's moreso, but that's been in steady decline over the years.
But going from being THE number one selling artist of all time to the state he's in now is pretty damn remarkable. Face it, the guy's got a few fans in Europe. That's it.
His career, is, for all intents and puposes... MORTE.
Cruise, on the other hand just seemed to crash and burn very quickly.
Yes, he just signed a big deal with UA.
But come on, this guy (like Mike) was the king of the world in his profession. Bar none.
And in a very short time he's managed to alienate a HUGE contingent of his fanbase... women.... by making a few stupid and careless remarks.
He's compounded his situation by acting weirder and weirder (I'll spare you the list).
Roger Friedman just dubbed him the "new MJ" ironically enough.
All of this has translated into bad box office.
And that is, after all, the bottom line.
Yes, there'll always be someone in the game willing to work wth him and spend $$$ on him.
Yes. He WILL continue to generate $$$ in the US and around the world.
But irreparable damage HAS been done, Oliver.
To the point where I don't see him ever regaining his stature of box office king again.
So no, his career is not "dead" dead. But, yeah. It is.
sayin'...
lotta first stone casting armchair judges up in here...
Is there a word or phrase that a black man can use towards a caucasion that would justify throwing the "N" word back??
And if so, what would that be??
Clearly, we're getting way off the original topic of the thread but hey, I'm game to play this out:
What you're saying is that if Tom Cruise is no longer the #1 box office king, that equals a dead career? That's seems like a pretty high bar to set...does that mean anyone who once was #1 but is no longer, by definition, has a moribund career?
Cruise couldn't have stayed on top forever - as he got older, there was simply bound to be someone who was going to become more popular than he was, even if he never acted like an idiot.
That wouldn't have meant his career was effectively dead. Cruise's MI3 didn't pull an Heaven's Gate. It underperformed substantially but we're talking about one film. He's made bumbles before (what was that shitty racing film, he did?) only to come back on top. SO I think it remains to be seen how badly Cruise has hurt himself by acting like an ass.
Personally, I HOPE you're actually right Paul. I'm not rooting for Tom. But I think it's too early to know how permanent the damage is.
gonna clarify my statement. He's not justified in what he said. But, everyone sitting here cocks-in-hand and drooling over the precise analysis of career damage he's done seems so small and petty.
What is there to forgive? Can you rehabilitate a racist person? I think it's safe to say his views are ingrained into his being at this point in his life.
to echo mord, i am really really surprised no one chucked a bottle on stage at his stupid ass. i would like to think that i would have.
i think comedian's often find it useful to shock, surprise and offend...but this shit was no comedy, just a meltdown. but all in all, im glad when shit like that happens, cause its just true colors manifesting and its good for people to see what lurks just below the surface of A LOT of people, black and white. believe it.
i saw that shit just last friday in a meeting when a new hire absolutely screamed on a white girl (been working at a school for 2 years) that she will NEVER have the love and connection to the kids that he has, since he's black (and 2 weeks on the job). sooo many people got some prejudiced shit, ready to uncoil and snap out.id rather see it, then be around people who hide their racism because they know it would be unacceptable in public.
racists, show thy selves.
Well said. Good point. We all would have learned a lot from that; real chance for growth there. A real moment for race relations...
show me the soulstrut debate that has shown more than one view
I was reading the youtube comments under his video for as long as I could take it, and alot of people were like "but he called him a cracker too so he's just as wrong!".
No.
Not saying calling someone a cracker is ok, but the sheer history of that word outweighs any slur you could ever throw at a white person.
Understood...
So do you think if Richards had used other well known and hated racial slurs other than the "N" word he would not be in such hot water???
I'd say it's about context. Dude was just venomous and flipping out, not doing his act. What comedians are you talking about tho? I can't think of many if any [/no Silverman].
And Rock,
That's a good question. I don't know.
it's not a context issue, it's an issue of allowing certain people to use the word anyway they want, even if they are insulting their own culture and heritage.
plain and simple the public holds certain standards based on color
Uh...what? Please to tell me you're not being an apologists for dude.
Dunno. You might wanna ask Mel Gibson.
Even if he were just tossing n-bombs at random, rather than directing them at a particular black person in the audience, how's he (or anyone else) going to act surprised if people get angry or offended? Or that, if they do, it's somehow their fault, and they just need to be more "forgiving" and more considerate of "race relations"? Excuse me for not being Mother Teresa or Nelson Mandela, but fuck Michael Richards - if he's not a racist prick, let him prove it with his actions.
I saw the title of this thread and that it was four pages long, and I knew Rockadelic was gonna be up in here talking some stupid schitt.
And I would like to extend an invitation to all you little dudes talking this "he's clearly insane/his career is over" garbage to join the rest of us in the real world.
He's not insane--he's just a racist piece of schitt. It's a common phenomenon; no need to resort to extreme psychiatric diagnoses to explain it. Also: this is the event that will spark a comeback for him--just watch.
No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. Shit is beyond fucked up. I'm just wondering how much of the outraged public will berate richards for this and then turn around cosign ironically racist comedians like Silverman or Carlos Mencia.
Oh, please. Several people in this thread have already publicly made up their minds and have essentially buried the guy.
Let him prove with actions? Let him let him.
Glad I didn't disappoint....I think this time I surpassed myself for sheer stupidity.
thats what I'm sayin!