But in terms of rational thought, I'm sure he was being quite sane at the time. Sane people call Black people all kinds of names, all the time.
Oliver come on. Is this what a PhD in ethnic studies gets you?
A sane person is being rational by telling a brother to shut the fuck up because 50 years ago he would have been lynched for speaking his mind?
No.
Matter of fact, you're not under the umbrella of rational or sane if you even think that shit to yourself.
Sorry.
You and Oliver are not talking about the same type of sanity. Oliver is talking about sanity, or lack thereof, as a clinical condition, and you're talking about sanity as it applies to rational behavior. Big difference. If your definition were used in the judicial system, our jails would be empty.
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now. Of course, Richards is pretty B-list these days in comparison so it's not like he's going to have many people pulling for him but call me cynical: I think America's love affair with celebrity is so great that practically NO ONE can do wrong for too long.
That said, I'd be happy to see his career permanently deaded over this. I mean, if George Allen could lose the senate race over "Macaca," imagine whatt this'll do to someone like Richards.
By the way, I think Fatback and my disagreement actually might stem to a difference in what I was responding to re: Aser's comment:
For a celebrity to spout off like that in a public forum was so incredibly stupid, that one could argue it would take an insane person to throw away their career like that.
Dude went on to the point beyond any sane individual would have gone. I don't think there's an explanation he can give that would really explain anything.
Actually, I don't think Richards did anythign remotely "insane". He simply expressed a sentiment that many people feel and have no problem expressing in private company. He chose a very poor forum in which to make his feelings known however. But in terms of rational thought, I'm sure he was being quite sane at the time. Sane people call Black people all kinds of names, all the time.
I'm with fatback on this. It's true that there are lots of racists in America today. But Richards is a guy who lives in hollywood and has thrived in that system. He just made himself a punchline, a punching bag and an unemployed actor in one unfunny calamitous outburst. In hollywood, in the world of celebrity, what he did was suicidal.
Also. Whoah. That was just vile--talking about lynching like that. What the hell is wrong with dude?
Seinfeld Star Loses Cool in Racist Rant by Sarah Hall Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:12:09 PM PST
Cosmo Kramer[/b], we never knew ya.
Idiotic that so many people are unable to separate Michael Richards from Cosmo Kramer, a fictitious character that Richards played. I'll have no problem watching Seinfeld.
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here Guz.
My point is that people in Hollywood can get away with shit that wouldn't fly elsewhere in society (including American politics) simply b/c of the power of celebrity. From what I've seen, the whole Gibson shit has now blown over to the point where people are shoulder-shruggin' it off like no biggie.
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here Guz.
My point is that people in Hollywood can get away with shit that wouldn't fly elsewhere in society (including American politics) simply b/c of the power of celebrity. From what I've seen, the whole Gibson shit has now blown over to the point where people are shoulder-shruggin' it off like no biggie.
Sayin'. Be ready for the promotional onslaught for his Apocalypto movie.
My point is that we shouldn't treat him like he's insane. An insane person, by virtue of the term, is not completely responsible for his or her actions (hence, an insanity plea in a murder case).
Rather, I think we should treat Richards as a completely rational and sane person who also harbors some ugly racist views.
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here Guz.
My point is that people in Hollywood can get away with shit that wouldn't fly elsewhere in society (including American politics) simply b/c of the power of celebrity. From what I've seen, the whole Gibson shit has now blown over to the point where people are shoulder-shruggin' it off like no biggie.
I was questioning why you wrote that he was anti-Semitic as if he no longer harbored prejudiced feelings towards the Jewish people. I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean the way I originally thought though.
As for whether or not the stigma of the incident caused any damage, we wont find out until Apocolipto is released.
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here Guz.
My point is that people in Hollywood can get away with shit that wouldn't fly elsewhere in society (including American politics) simply b/c of the power of celebrity. From what I've seen, the whole Gibson shit has now blown over to the point where people are shoulder-shruggin' it off like no biggie.
To say that this won't fly in politics isn't entirely accurate; Allen didn't get elected, but he'll get a lobbying job paying him big cash by a bunch of cronies like him.
I would also like to add that maybe I'm soft and too forgiving, but hoping for dude's career to die over 2 minutes seems seriously shortsighted. It gives people no reason to rethink their positions, beliefs, and actually try to change; if you forever label him a racist bigot, then where does he have to go? If you want change, you might have to forgive along the way.
Now, as I get attacked for that last paragraph, i'm gonna go back to work. Not to pull a driveby, but I'm busy.
But in terms of rational thought, I'm sure he was being quite sane at the time. Sane people call Black people all kinds of names, all the time.
Oliver come on. Is this what a PhD in ethnic studies gets you?
A sane person is being rational by telling a brother to shut the fuck up because 50 years ago he would have been lynched for speaking his mind?
No.
Matter of fact, you're not under the umbrella of rational or sane if you even think that shit to yourself.
Sorry.
You and Oliver are not talking about the same type of sanity. Oliver is talking about sanity, or lack thereof, as a clinical condition, and you're talking about sanity as it applies to rational behavior. Big difference. If your definition were used in the judicial system, our jails would be empty.
sanity is not a clinical condition. get yourself a DSM IV TR. it is a legal term.
I would also like to add that maybe I'm soft and too forgiving, but hoping for dude's career die over 2 minutes seems seriously shortsighted. It gives people no reason to rethink their positions, beliefs, and actually try to change; if you forever label him a racist bigot, then where does he have to go. If you want change, you might have to forgive along the way.
Now, as I get attacked for that last paragraph, i'm gonna go pack to work. Not to pull a driveby, but I'm busy.
you make an excellent point, all of us who preach that we are tolerant and understanding are quick to judge and forever label a man a hateful racist prick because of a couple minutes of angry words. Mind you guys I am not defending nor apologizing for him
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here Guz.
My point is that people in Hollywood can get away with shit that wouldn't fly elsewhere in society (including American politics) simply b/c of the power of celebrity. From what I've seen, the whole Gibson shit has now blown over to the point where people are shoulder-shruggin' it off like no biggie.
I was questioning why you wrote that he was anti-Semitic as if he no longer harbored prejudiced feelings towards the Jewish people. I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean the way I originally thought though.
As for whether or not the stigma of the incident caused any damage, we wont find out until Apocolipto is released.
"Dude was anti-Semitic and sexist" = a colloquial way of saying "Mr. Gibson made remarks that were construed as anti-Semitic and sexist"
Similar to, for example:
"Dude, that burrito was totally awesome" = "Sir, that burrito made for an excellent meal."
You (Guzzo) are confusing my use of idiomatic phrasing and taking it to be literal. To use the latter example, you would have interpreted "dude, that burrito was amazing" as "the burritos at this establishment were once quite excellent, however, they have changed something in the preparation so that it is no longer the culinary delight it once was."
As for whether or not the stigma of the incident caused any damage, we wont find out until Apocolipto is released.
That's not a good measure for it UNLESS the film does blockbuster numbers. If it flops though, it's hard to argue if it will hvae done so b/c of Gibson's unpopularity or b/c he had a period flick about a centuries-old Mayan (it is Mayan, yes?) civilization, using no "name" actors, with no English dialogue. I mean, Spielberg and Tom Hanks could have co-produced that movie and it'd still potentially tank.
You (Guzzo) are confusing my use of idiomatic phrasing and taking it to be literal. To use the latter example, you would have interpreted "dude, that burrito was amazing" as "the burritos at this establishment were once quite excellent, however, they have changed something in the preparation so that it is no longer the culinary delight it once was."
This is the best post in this thread.
PS Which burrito spot are you talking about, Oliver? 'Cause I KNOW you're not sayin' El Castillito on Church fell off.
But in terms of rational thought, I'm sure he was being quite sane at the time. Sane people call Black people all kinds of names, all the time.
Oliver come on. Is this what a PhD in ethnic studies gets you?
A sane person is being rational by telling a brother to shut the fuck up because 50 years ago he would have been lynched for speaking his mind?
No.
Matter of fact, you're not under the umbrella of rational or sane if you even think that shit to yourself.
Sorry.
You and Oliver are not talking about the same type of sanity. Oliver is talking about sanity, or lack thereof, as a clinical condition, and you're talking about sanity as it applies to rational behavior. Big difference. If your definition were used in the judicial system, our jails would be empty.
sanity is not a clinical condition. get yourself a DSM IV TR. it is a legal term.
I'm very aware that you don't diagnose people as 'insane' (I'll admit my post was sloppily worded), but it doesn't change the fact that you and Oliver are using different definitions of 'sanity', or rather, 'rationality'. You are using rational in an ultimate sense of the word, and Oliver is using it with respect to a particular individual's way of thinking. By your reasoning, everyone who committed a hate crime would be considered legally 'insane'.
I'll give you that there's a disconnect between me and O-Wang, but I'm having a hard time with your other assertion. But we should save the forensic psychopathology talk for another time.
You (Guzzo) are confusing my use of idiomatic phrasing and taking it to be literal. To use the latter example, you would have interpreted "dude, that burrito was amazing" as "the burritos at this establishment were once quite excellent, however, they have changed something in the preparation so that it is no longer the culinary delight it once was."
Proof that O-dub is already born-again SoCal.
Congrats!
Was Kramer ever funny, even on that TV show? (here's a hint: NO)
I'll tell you who's funny. That one guy with the beard that did that stand-up show on comdedy central. Also that guy with the bowl cut (no-fatback).
Is it career suicide though? 10 years ago, I would have said, "yeah, totally" but man, these days, all you need is a stint in rehab and a weepy apology on "Oprah" and you're back in everyone's good graces. Look at Mel Gibson - dude was anti-Semitic AND sexist and people are more or less treating that shit like a joke now. Of course, Richards is pretty B-list these days in comparison so it's not like he's going to have many people pulling for him but call me cynical: I think America's love affair with celebrity is so great that practically NO ONE can do wrong for too long.
That said, I'd be happy to see his career permanently deaded over this. I mean, if George Allen could lose the senate race over "Macaca," imagine whatt this'll do to someone like Richards.
By the way, I think Fatback and my disagreement actually might stem to a difference in what I was responding to re: Aser's comment:
For a celebrity to spout off like that in a public forum was so incredibly stupid, that one could argue it would take an insane person to throw away their career like that.
So what would be required of Kramer to get back into the good graces of hollywood? Jesse? Abe Foxman saved Mel Gibson's career. I don't know. It's pretty awful. And Allen wasn't ruined per se by Macaca. He was ruined because dude's sister wrote a book about what an asshole he was. And he's just an idiot.
I'll give you that there's a disconnect between me and O-Wang, but I'm having a hard time with your other assertion. But we should save the forensic psychopathology talk for another time.
Agreed.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
Which is a shame because it's impossible to logically draw the conclusion that he's a racist from the incomplete and edited piece of tape that only runs two-and-a-half minutes
"Sure, he says "nigger" an awful lot, but without the entire context of the show, we don't know what factors led up to Richards' tirade against the heckler."
gtfohwtb.
The dude who wrote that collumn is a fucking closet racist himself.
OK, I finally saw that clip. "Context" or not, that shit's inexcusable. I mean, how long would he have needed to carry on before this cat concluded that what he was saying was some hateful, racist shit? It didn't take the audience two-and-a-half minutes - they seemed to cotton on pretty quick that he wasn't joking.
So what would be required of Kramer to get back into the good graces of hollywood?
I don't know. Maybe he really is beyond redemption. I just think we live in a different age. When's the last time a celebrity really committed career suicide and it's still stuck?
So what would be required of Kramer to get back into the good graces of hollywood?
I don't know. Maybe he really is beyond redemption. I just think we live in a different age. When's the last time a celebrity really committed career suicide and it's still stuck?
Being that it's a different age is key. If it's not movies, it's TV, or radio, or a book, or magazines, or the internet...
There are so many venues now that no matter how much someone slips up, they can still get their thing off in some way.
O.J.'s book AND TV special both got shot down though...
I don't know. Maybe he really is beyond redemption. I just think we live in a different age. When's the last time a celebrity really committed career suicide and it's still stuck?
Definitely...
and at least to some extent...
Drudge is now reporting that Richards has made an appearance on tonight's Letterman. Peep...
DRUDGE READER: 'I'm in the audience for tonight's David Letterman show and they just had Michael Richards on via satellite during Seinfeld's interview to discuss his on-stage tirade. He apologized and expressed remorse at his own behavior. He seemed genuinely upset and embarrassed'... MORE...
I just talked to a buddy of mine at Harper Collins and he said it was coming out. He also said there were a bunch of protesters outside the building...
I don't see what the drama is with the OJ book. What with so many true crime novels in the racks these days. There really is no difference. From interview segments of the Goldmans, all I got out of it was that they were pissed because they wouldn't be able to touch any percentage of profits from the book sales. That's
Comments
You and Oliver are not talking about the same type of sanity. Oliver is talking about sanity, or lack thereof, as a clinical condition, and you're talking about sanity as it applies to rational behavior. Big difference. If your definition were used in the judicial system, our jails would be empty.
That said, I'd be happy to see his career permanently deaded over this. I mean, if George Allen could lose the senate race over "Macaca," imagine whatt this'll do to someone like Richards.
By the way, I think Fatback and my disagreement actually might stem to a difference in what I was responding to re: Aser's comment:
For a celebrity to spout off like that in a public forum was so incredibly stupid, that one could argue it would take an insane person to throw away their career like that.
Idiotic that so many people are unable to separate Michael Richards from Cosmo Kramer, a fictitious character that Richards played. I'll have no problem watching Seinfeld.
What do you mean "was anti-Semitic AND sexist"? A public apology may get some people to forgive you but I can guarantee that he isn't feeling any love for the Jew at TMZ.com (Harvey Levin) that blew the whistle on his actions.
I doubt Gibson will be sending Levin a thank you card for helping him open his eyes and exposing his hateful ways.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here Guz.
My point is that people in Hollywood can get away with shit that wouldn't fly elsewhere in society (including American politics) simply b/c of the power of celebrity. From what I've seen, the whole Gibson shit has now blown over to the point where people are shoulder-shruggin' it off like no biggie.
Sayin'. Be ready for the promotional onslaught for his Apocalypto movie.
Co-sizzle!
I was questioning why you wrote that he was anti-Semitic as if he no longer harbored prejudiced feelings towards the Jewish people. I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean the way I originally thought though.
As for whether or not the stigma of the incident caused any damage, we wont find out until Apocolipto is released.
To say that this won't fly in politics isn't entirely accurate; Allen didn't get elected, but he'll get a lobbying job paying him big cash by a bunch of cronies like him.
I would also like to add that maybe I'm soft and too forgiving, but hoping for dude's career to die over 2 minutes seems seriously shortsighted. It gives people no reason to rethink their positions, beliefs, and actually try to change; if you forever label him a racist bigot, then where does he have to go? If you want change, you might have to forgive along the way.
Now, as I get attacked for that last paragraph, i'm gonna go back to work. Not to pull a driveby, but I'm busy.
Do people really think this is true? If so, why, because it's no longer headline news?
Then again, Michael Richards is making Mel Gibson look like Matt Lauer right about now.
sanity is not a clinical condition. get yourself a DSM IV TR. it is a legal term.
you make an excellent point, all of us who preach that we are tolerant and understanding are quick to judge and forever label a man a hateful racist prick because of a couple minutes of angry words. Mind you guys I am not defending nor apologizing for him
"Dude was anti-Semitic and sexist" = a colloquial way of saying "Mr. Gibson made remarks that were construed as anti-Semitic and sexist"
Similar to, for example:
"Dude, that burrito was totally awesome" = "Sir, that burrito made for an excellent meal."
You (Guzzo) are confusing my use of idiomatic phrasing and taking it to be literal. To use the latter example, you would have interpreted "dude, that burrito was amazing" as "the burritos at this establishment were once quite excellent, however, they have changed something in the preparation so that it is no longer the culinary delight it once was."
That's not a good measure for it UNLESS the film does blockbuster numbers. If it flops though, it's hard to argue if it will hvae done so b/c of Gibson's unpopularity or b/c he had a period flick about a centuries-old Mayan (it is Mayan, yes?) civilization, using no "name" actors, with no English dialogue. I mean, Spielberg and Tom Hanks could have co-produced that movie and it'd still potentially tank.
This is the best post in this thread.
PS Which burrito spot are you talking about, Oliver? 'Cause I KNOW you're not sayin' El Castillito on Church fell off.
Did it?
I'm very aware that you don't diagnose people as 'insane' (I'll admit my post was sloppily worded), but it doesn't change the fact that you and Oliver are using different definitions of 'sanity', or rather, 'rationality'. You are using rational in an ultimate sense of the word, and Oliver is using it with respect to a particular individual's way of thinking. By your reasoning, everyone who committed a hate crime would be considered legally 'insane'.
Who would that be?
Because seriously, soulstrut by and large consist of some of the most intolerant folks I've yet to encounter.
I cannot tolerate that opinion, sir.
Proof that O-dub is already born-again SoCal.
Congrats!
Was Kramer ever funny, even on that TV show? (here's a hint: NO)
I'll tell you who's funny. That one guy with the beard that did that stand-up show on comdedy central. Also that guy with the bowl cut (no-fatback).
So what would be required of Kramer to get back into the good graces of hollywood? Jesse? Abe Foxman saved Mel Gibson's career. I don't know. It's pretty awful. And Allen wasn't ruined per se by Macaca. He was ruined because dude's sister wrote a book about what an asshole he was. And he's just an idiot.
Agreed.
OK, I finally saw that clip. "Context" or not, that shit's inexcusable. I mean, how long would he have needed to carry on before this cat concluded that what he was saying was some hateful, racist shit? It didn't take the audience two-and-a-half minutes - they seemed to cotton on pretty quick that he wasn't joking.
I don't know. Maybe he really is beyond redemption. I just think we live in a different age. When's the last time a celebrity really committed career suicide and it's still stuck?
Being that it's a different age is key. If it's not movies, it's TV, or radio, or a book, or magazines, or the internet...
There are so many venues now that no matter how much someone slips up, they can still get their thing off in some way.
O.J.'s book AND TV special both got shot down though...
Definitely...
and at least to some extent...
Drudge is now reporting that Richards has made an appearance on tonight's Letterman.
Peep...
DRUDGE READER: 'I'm in the audience for tonight's David Letterman show and they just had Michael Richards on via satellite during Seinfeld's interview to discuss his on-stage tirade. He apologized and expressed remorse at his own behavior. He seemed genuinely upset and embarrassed'... MORE...
I just talked to a buddy of mine at Harper Collins and he said it was coming out. He also said there were a bunch of protesters outside the building...
I don't see what the drama is with the OJ book. What with so many true crime novels in the racks these days. There really is no difference. From interview segments of the Goldmans, all I got out of it was that they were pissed because they wouldn't be able to touch any percentage of profits from the book sales. That's