Oh yeah The Chronic did change the game and there is a lull from tracks 10 - 13 but that lull is way better than some cats whole fuckin album. Uneven no, perfect no. But lets not turn this into a Chronic critique. Deej's crtitique was a little heavyhanded.
Don't try to pull me into your little windmill battling.
I didn't like "The Chronic" when it came out because, sonically, I just wasn't ready to be open to the aesthetic shift from the shit I really liked (aka NY Golden Era) to the rise of G-Funk and gangsta rap. My opposition to it was, for lack of a better term, ideological (and at that age, that kind of shit mattered to me a lot more than it does now).
I never, throughout the years, complained about "The Chronic" being a bad album. And I never withheld giving it its due for being influential. But for the most part, I just largely steered clear of it and it wasn't until many years down the road that I actually sat down and LISTENED TO IT and by that time, was far more open, sonically, to what the album had to bring. And you know what? It's a really good fucking album. And if there's "filler" on there, I think you need to step up lil soldier and actually state what songs on there qualify as "filler."
I mean, I don't like about half of "Low End Theory" but not because I think those songs are "filler". Nor does it dim my enthusiasm for the album as a whole (or any other album which I might deem "classic" even if I don't find it to be an end-to-end burner).
I didn't like "The Chronic" when it came out because, sonically, I just wasn't ready to be open to the aesthetic shift from the shit I really liked (aka NY Golden Era) to the rise of G-Funk and gangsta rap. My opposition to it was, for lack of a better term, ideological (and at that age, that kind of shit mattered to me a lot more than it does now).
I never, throughout the years, complained about "The Chronic" being a bad album. And I never withheld giving it its due for being influential. But for the most part, I just largely steered clear of it and it wasn't until many years down the road that I actually sat down and LISTENED TO IT and by that time, was far more open, sonically, to what the album had to bring. And you know what? It's a really good fucking album. And if there's "filler" on there, I think you need to step up lil soldier and actually state what songs on there qualify as "filler."
^^^^^^^^^^^COPPING PLEAS!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
But for the most part, I just largely steered clear of it and it wasn't until many years down the road that I actually sat down and LISTENED TO IT
Hey, I was in college at Berkeley [insert hackey sack pic here]. I didn't like all that synthesizer shit. I mean, at this point in time, I really thought the Hieros were the truth.
I was young. I cop to that plea.
By the way - on the Kris Kross tip...
When I was in Shanghai, I met this local rapper who's considered "OG" for Shanghai (meaning: he's been rapping since the '90s). His name, in English, is spelled BlaKK Bubble (I'll get to that KK part in a second). "Black Bubble" translated into Mandarin is pronounced "hay powpow" which was this guy's Chinglish version of "hip hop" (since, at the time, there was no Chinese term for "hip hop"). Basically, his name literally means "hip hop."
So I asked him, "what's up with the KK?" and he explained that it was an homage to Kris Kross because that was the first rap group he ever heard and Kris Kross was to him what Run DMC was to people in my generation. You have to keep in mind: in Shanghai (and most of China), most of the American pop music that gets "imported" is all through bootlegging or warehouse cut-outs and vendors have no clue as to what they're selling. But for big selling artists, there's more cut-outs that get released and therefore, make their way into third world markets like China. According to my local friends, the single biggest rapper amongst Chinese youth of the '90s was MC Hammer simply because his album was easy to find.
So in that sense, our Yung Deej shares something in common with billions of Chinese people in lionizing that greatness that was Kris Kross. I'm sure in Shanghai, "Warm It Up" IS a classic.
Regardless of deej's idiosyncricities (i.e. bad taste) , I think his main point still stands:
Lionizing "classic" albums at the expense of contemporary albums is an all too common phenomenon amongst "old heads" and displays their "disconnection from the streets" more than it says anything worthwhile about the "current state of hip-hop."
Regardless of deej's idiosyncricities (i.e. bad taste) , I think his main point still stands:
Lionizing "classic" albums at the expense of contemporary albums is an all too common phenomenon amongst "old heads" and displays their "disconnection from the streets" more than it says anything worthwhile about the "current state of hip-hop."
-e
Again, I'm not sure that is what's happened in this thread. I think that's the strawman that young cats like Deej are trying to prop up but no one here has said (I don't think) that "contemporary rap albums universally suck shit". I think the most controversial statement made was that there were better rap ALBUMS being made at a certain point in the past because the recording industry was more open to an album-oriented model vs. what has usually been the norm pre and post New School = singles-driven market.
But no one's said, "there are no good albums anymore."
1st off, I don't know what you think is suspect about my taste, I'm not the one going on about T-Pain-laced E-40 songs. If you mean liking "Warm It Up," 1. its a thorough pop-rap joint from when I was a kid so it has sentimental classic status, like dudes who are still feelin "Bust A Move" even though its corny. 2. Its not just chinese dudes who like "Warm It Up," that shit has gotten play on plenty of throwback hip-hop sets they play on WGCI here in chicago and I wouldnt have even remembered the damn track if DJ lil john (not that lil jon) hadn't thrown it in the middle of an old school set a month or two ago. Its a classic almost by default, because its not corny like "I Missed The Bus" and it doesn't have the same corny sorority singalong I-like-big-butts "remember this!?" associations as mega-hit "Jump" and it makes you realize that one of the dudes from k-k could actually rap pretty well.
As for the tilting at windmills thing - my point wasn't to bash the chronic, which I even said was probably the most impactful rap album to ever be released but to agree with O-Dub - plenty of great albums have tracks that are skippable. So when people get all up in arms about so-called 'filler' on "King" or whatever new albums are dropping, I'm like..."and?" How is "Bankhead" any more 'filler' than "Rat-tat-tat"? As much as I hate the new E-40 single I think the album is dope (the dick sucking song also sucks) and I could see it reasonably being called 'classic' a few years from now when the dust settles.
I've been intentionally over-provacative I guess but I don't think I even disagree with most of you on the whole, I just don't think that 'golden age' albums are going to be any less classic than albums that drop now. And I think the "rap is a singles genre now" thing is a cheap condescending perspective (even if unintentionally so). I'll be the first to say that rap is full of shitty artists, shitty albums, albums with unneccessary annoying shit. But when an album hits you, it doesn't matter if the odd t-pain cameo or "High Powered" fucks things up, it can still be a great album. (PS to O-Dub: The songs I don't like as much are the ones that sound just like NWA circa Efil4zaggin - did you like those tracks more than the singles at the time? What did you think of that NWA release?)
Its like rap is the only genre where fans are always judging the albums in fractions, "Man this was dope but I can only give it a 15/19". Unless old people said its 'classic,' in which case saying its got some weak tracks is heresy.
As an aside, is there something inherently more valuable about an album-oriented artist or genre vs. a singles-oriented one? Is the album format the end-all be-all standard for "important" recorded music output?
Regardless of deej's idiosyncricities (i.e. bad taste) , I think his main point still stands:
Lionizing "classic" albums at the expense of contemporary albums is an all too common phenomenon amongst "old heads" and displays their "disconnection from the streets" more than it says anything worthwhile about the "current state of hip-hop."
-e
Speaking of 'bad taste' emil, when's the next baile grime b-more booty crunk white belt party?
Regardless of deej's idiosyncricities (i.e. bad taste) , I think his main point still stands:
Lionizing "classic" albums at the expense of contemporary albums is an all too common phenomenon amongst "old heads" and displays their "disconnection from the streets" more than it says anything worthwhile about the "current state of hip-hop."
-e
Speaking of 'bad taste' emil, when's the next baile grime b-more booty crunk white belt party?
As an aside, is there something inherently more valuable about an album-oriented artist or genre vs. a singles-oriented one? Is the album format the end-all be-all standard for "important" recorded music output?
Not at all. And there's nothing condescending about suggesting that hip-hop has largely been a singles-driven genre.
But if we're going to talk about important rap ALBUMS then the trends in the format are relevant for discussion here. This would be a very different conversation if we were talking about important rap ARTISTS, in which case, the criteria becomes based on songs rather than albums per se. There's a lot of artists who've dropped hot to def songs throughout their careers without ever coming with something that resembles a sick ass album.
That said, within the conventional world of music criticism/publications - the album is considered the "proper" format for discussion. That doesn't mean magazines have it right, I'm merely noting the convention.
Personally? I like albums. I like the idea that an album showcases different dimensions to an artist besides the ability to drop hot singles. And I don't really think the album is "dead" insofar as so long as artists actually are putting out albums (and I include mix-CDs in this too), there's always the possibility for unforeseen cuts to rise to the top on the basis of chance rather than whatever songs the label or even artist picks to hit. I like that surprise element to music-making and I think the album lends itself to that.
This all said though, I try not to be beholden to albums as the end-all, be-all. It's good to be flexible.
Do you really want to get into an argument over whether or not "Warm It Up > "U and Dat"? Seems a bit pointless - I was never ravaging your taste in any case (perhaps you're confusing my posts with someone else's. My mere point was that Kris Kross was big in China). Methinks perhaps you're being a little overly defensive over the fact that people are making fun of Kris Kross being your definitive rap group as a kid. I mean, it's not your fault you weren't born 10 years earlier.
Anyways...
1) There is a big difference between describing a track as "skippable" vs. describing it as "filler." It's the difference between someone saying, "personally, I can't really get with [insert song title here]" vs. "that song sucks." People are responding to you because they hear you saying the latter. My point is that I may not want to listen to "Let Me Ride" 10,000 times but I wouldn't call the song trash either.
But sure, I agree that there are plenty of classic albums with weak songs on them but if I recall, where you got into trouble was asserting that "Chronic 2001" was a better album than "The Chronic" because the latter had weaker shit than the former. I'd say that song-for-song analysis is not the only means by which a "classic" album is determined. (It doesn't hurt though).
2) "I just don't think that 'golden age' albums are going to be any less classic than albums that drop now."
On one level, I can respect that because I think it's important to respect the fact that just because you and your generation of listeners don't like the same things as another generation of listeners, doesn't make any one p.o.v. any more or less valid. That's why I don't ascribe to "hip hop is dead" rhetoric since clearly, for millions, it's not.
However, the whole idea of a golden era and classics is all about canons and consensus. The inherent "rightness or wrongness" of such classifications are, of course, open to criticism but bottomline, they still carry weight. I mean, we consider the golden era of funk to be 69-73 or some shit even though there continued to be funk produced to this very day. But in the minds of a critical mass of people, funk's best era was those few years. The same could be applied to jazz albums. Or blues albums. Or rock albums. Etc. Maybe this is just a sign that the dinosaurs in these respective genres have too much clout. Or maybe not. I mean, is jazz in 2006 as good as it was in 1966?
And if it's not, then why do we expect that hip-hop would be consistent throughout time? Do people really think that, say, 1989 and 1999 were equivalent hip-hop years?
1st off, I don't know what you think is suspect about my taste, I'm not the one going on about T-Pain-laced E-40 songs. If you mean liking "Warm It Up," 1. its a thorough pop-rap joint from when I was a kid so it has sentimental classic status, like dudes who are still feelin "Bust A Move" even though its corny. 2. Its not just chinese dudes who like "Warm It Up," that shit has gotten play on plenty of throwback hip-hop sets they play on WGCI here in chicago and I wouldnt have even remembered the damn track if DJ lil john (not that lil jon) hadn't thrown it in the middle of an old school set a month or two ago. Its a classic almost by default, because its not corny like "I Missed The Bus" and it doesn't have the same corny sorority singalong I-like-big-butts "remember this!?" associations as mega-hit "Jump" and it makes you realize that one of the dudes from k-k could actually rap pretty well.
As for the tilting at windmills thing - my point wasn't to bash the chronic, which I even said was probably the most impactful rap album to ever be released but to agree with O-Dub - plenty of great albums have tracks that are skippable. So when people get all up in arms about so-called 'filler' on "King" or whatever new albums are dropping, I'm like..."and?" How is "Bankhead" any more 'filler' than "Rat-tat-tat"? As much as I hate the new E-40 single I think the album is dope (the dick sucking song also sucks) and I could see it reasonably being called 'classic' a few years from now when the dust settles.
I've been intentionally over-provacative I guess but I don't think I even disagree with most of you on the whole, I just don't think that 'golden age' albums are going to be any less classic than albums that drop now. And I think the "rap is a singles genre now" thing is a cheap condescending perspective (even if unintentionally so). I'll be the first to say that rap is full of shitty artists, shitty albums, albums with unneccessary annoying shit. But when an album hits you, it doesn't matter if the odd t-pain cameo or "High Powered" fucks things up, it can still be a great album. (PS to O-Dub: The songs I don't like as much are the ones that sound just like NWA circa Efil4zaggin - did you like those tracks more than the singles at the time? What did you think of that NWA release?)
Its like rap is the only genre where fans are always judging the albums in fractions, "Man this was dope but I can only give it a 15/19". Unless old people said its 'classic,' in which case saying its got some weak tracks is heresy.
o-dub, thanks for taking the time...I didn't mean to imply that I was responding only to you in that post, a lot of ppl were throwing stuff at me in that thread so it was a general response. Kris Kross werent even 'the definitive' rap group for me! It was just the first tape I bought with my own money and I thought it was funny dude was trying to diss me for liking Jay-Z's Vol. 3 (which is seriously great). Chronic and Doggystyle were much more definitive for my experience of what rap music was. I prob am coming off as more defensive than I mean to.
I didn't even mean to imply that Chronic had weaker shit than 2001 - just fewer strong tracks. 2001 hasn't been as overplayed (I mean, it was ubiquitous, but still not on the Chronic's level) and it had more hot tracks. Obviously, this is an IMO thing, but it benefited from being longer and more focused. I think my bigger complaint about the Chronic is that only a few of the songs matched up to the singles in terms of sonic cohesion and modern-ness, too many tracks that sounded like they could have been dropped on the NWA albums; Doggystyle was much more consistent in terms of the new g-funk sound.
Fair enough on skippable vs. filler - I was being more provacative (er "heavy handed" as whoever said) than I needed to be. I don't see what i've said as being any more of a heresy than dudes saying suspect things like "That chappelle movie really brought back how good hip-hop used to be," but I guess you guys are used to that by now so it gets like zero response?
As for hip-hop - I certainly don't think hip-hop's gonna be dope forever, and yeah there will be a golden age. But I don't feel like we're far enough removed to make that assertion yet that the golden age has passed; the thing that keeps me questioning is 1. All the dudes I've read who were writing stuff in '94 saying "hip-hop sucks now" 2. All the music from the late 90s and early 00s that I love that has yet to get the respect it deserves from 'heads'. To me it was just as much its own golden age, the period where popular music was great in clubs but didn't lose its street edge and the variety of sounds in terms of production had never been more diverse (certainly more diverse than the early 90s golden age in either new york or cali) - when mainstream rap opened the channels beyond those two geographies, I think its easy to say that was the beginning of a new 'golden age.' As far as I can tell rap still has its youthful audience, its political and socioeconomic edge, its creative vitality.
Also I agree with yr post above the last one 100% - for a recent example, the Yo Gotti album has a bunch of great tracks that wouldn't make much sense as singles, but as explorations of dude's persona its a pretty great release. Albums like that and Trap Muzik are the reason I have trouble thinking the rap album is dead in the 00s.
In threads like this i always end up sounding totally humorless
Whether we admit it or not, it seems like most of the older "headz" (myself included) have an elitist attitude when it comes to discussing "classics" and the modern state of rap music. Personally, I find myself involved in conversations with younger people from time to time and saying 'you don't know about ________' when discussing older material. I've realized that the way I view albums by ATCQ, PE, Dr. Dre, etc. is the same way the younger crowd views albums by Young Jeezy, T.I., Webbie, etc. Maybe the consumer today doesn't have the same level of anticipation for a release that we did in '92, but they still listen, discuss and critique albums the same way we did. Ultimately, no matter which "classic" we discuss, there will always be differences when it comes to which tracks we like or dislike even though an album is widely viewed as a "classic".
... I thought it was funny dude was trying to diss me for liking Jay-Z's Vol. 3 (which is seriously great)...
You felt disrespected because I suggested that your opinion on this particular record was linked to the moment you heard it ? You're overly sensitive. There's nothing wrong with being young. Who can deny that the first rap album you hear always had a special place ? I mean I discovered rap with Raising Hell and Licensed To Ill, and no body could convince me that King Of Rock is better than Raising Hell, or that The Fat Boys were better than the Beastie BOys. I'm sure other people feel different. I'm always surprised when I spin some random old track at a club or on the radio, to see the reaction of some people to, say Boss or Rumpletillskins. Some stuff that is half way decent to someone will bring memories back to someone else.
I think 10 years is a large enough window to determine the greatness, or lack thereof, of an album. I chose 1996 because it has a number of recognized "classics" as well as a number of quality releases. I know the debate will rage on about the quality of current rap releases versus past rap releases but I just wanted to show how strong some of the past years have been.
How many of these albums from 1996 would you consider above-average to "classics":
-A Tribe Called Quest "Beats, Rhymes and Life" -A+ "Latch-Key Child" -Al Tariq "God Connections" -Bahamadia "Kollage" -Big Noyd "Episodes Of A Hustla" -Blahzay Blahzay "Blah, Blah, Blah" -Busta Rhymes "The Coming" -Cella Dwellas "Realms 'N Reality" -Chino XL "Here To Save You All" -Crucial Conflict "The Final Tic" -De La Soul "Stakes Is High" -DJ Shadow "Endtroducing..." -Dr. Octagon "Dr. Octagonecologyst" -Dru Down "Can You Feel Me" -E-40 "Tha Hall Of Game" -Fugees "The Score" -Geto Boys "The Resurrection" -Ghostface Killah "Ironman" -Heather B "Takin Mine" -Heltah Skeltah "Nocturnal" -Jay-Z "Reasonable Doubt" -Jeru the Damaja "Wrath of the Math" -Keith Murray "Enigma" -Kwest Tha Madd Lad "This Is My First Album" -Lil 1/2 Dead "Steel on a Mission" -Lord Finesse "The Awakening" -Mobb Deep "Hell On Earth" -M.O.P. "Firing Squad" -Mr. Mike "Wicked Wayz" -Nas "It Was Written" -Nine "Cloud 9" -O.G.C. "Da Storm" -Outkast "ATLiens" -Ras Kass "Soul On Ice" -Real Live "The Turnaround: A Long Awaited Drama" -Redman "Muddy Waters" -Richie Rich "Seasoned Veteran" -The Roots "Illadelph Halflife" -Sadat X "Wild Cowboys" -Mad Skillz "From Where?" -Slum Village "Fantastic Vol. 1" -Smoothe Da Hustler "Once Upon A Time In America" -2Pac "All Eyez On Me" -2Pac/Makaveli "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory" -U.G.K. "Ridin' Dirty" -Westside Connection "Bow Down" -Xzibit "At The Speed Of Life" -Young Lay "Black 'N Dangerous"
I think 10 years is a large enough window to determine the greatness, or lack thereof, of an album. I chose 1996 because it has a number of recognized "classics" as well as a number of quality releases. I know the debate will rage on about the quality of current rap releases versus past rap releases but I just wanted to show how strong some of the past years have been.
How many of these albums from 1996 would you consider above-average to "classics":
-A Tribe Called Quest "Beats, Rhymes and Life" -A+ "Latch-Key Child" -Al Tariq "God Connections" -Bahamadia "Kollage" -Big Noyd "Episodes Of A Hustla" -Blahzay Blahzay "Blah, Blah, Blah" -Busta Rhymes "The Coming" -Cella Dwellas "Realms 'N Reality" -Chino XL "Here To Save You All" -Crucial Conflict "The Final Tic" -De La Soul "Stakes Is High" -DJ Shadow "Endtroducing..." -Dr. Octagon "Dr. Octagonecologyst" -Dru Down "Can You Feel Me" -E-40 "Tha Hall Of Game" -Fugees "The Score" -Geto Boys "The Resurrection" -Ghostface Killah "Ironman" (1996) -Heather B "Takin Mine" -Heltah Skeltah "Nocturnal" -Jay-Z "Reasonable Doubt" -Jeru the Damaja "Wrath of the Math" -Keith Murray "Enigma" -Kwest Tha Madd Lad "This Is My First Album" -Lil 1/2 Dead "Steel on a Mission" -Lord Finesse "The Awakening" -Mobb Deep "Hell On Earth" -M.O.P. "Firing Squad" -Mr. Mike "Wicked Wayz" -Nas "It Was Written" -Nine "Cloud 9" -O.G.C. "Da Storm" -Outkast "ATLiens" -Ras Kass "Soul On Ice" -Real Live "The Turnaround: A Long Awaited Drama" -Redman "Muddy Waters" -Richie Rich "Seasoned Veteran" -The Roots "Illadelph Halflife" -Sadat X "Wild Cowboys" -Mad Skillz "From Where?" -Slum Village "Fantastic Vol. 1" -Smoothe Da Hustler "Once Upon A Time In America" -2Pac "All Eyez On Me" -2Pac/Makaveli "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory" -U.G.K. "Ridin' Dirty" -Westside Connection "Bow Down" -Xzibit "At The Speed Of Life" -Young Lay "Black 'N Dangerous"
How many of these albums from 1996 would you consider above-average to "classics":
-A Tribe Called Quest "Beats, Rhymes and Life" -Busta Rhymes "The Coming" -Chino XL "Here To Save You All" -De La Soul "Stakes Is High" -Dru Down "Can You Feel Me" -E-40 "Tha Hall Of Game" -Fugees "The Score" -Ghostface Killah "Ironman" (1996) -Heltah Skeltah "Nocturnal" -Jay-Z "Reasonable Doubt" -Keith Murray "Enigma" -Lil 1/2 Dead "Steel on a Mission" -Mobb Deep "Hell On Earth" -M.O.P. "Firing Squad" -O.G.C. "Da Storm" -Outkast "ATLiens" -Ras Kass "Soul On Ice" -Redman "Muddy Waters" -The Roots "Illadelph Halflife" -Slum Village "Fantastic Vol. 1" -2Pac "All Eyez On Me" -U.G.K. "Ridin' Dirty" -Westside Connection "Bow Down"
I can't believe anybody will actually describe this schitt as "above average to classic" with a straight face.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Above average:
-A Tribe Called Quest "Beats, Rhymes and Life" -Busta Rhymes "The Coming" -DJ Shadow "Endtroducing..." -Heltah Skeltah "Nocturnal" -Jeru the Damaja "Wrath of the Math" -Nas "It Was Written" -The Roots "Illadelph Halflife"
Classics:
-Outkast "ATLiens" -Ras Kass "Soul On Ice" -2Pac "All Eyez On Me" -2Pac/Makaveli "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory" -U.G.K. "Ridin' Dirty"
Comments
My favorite new poster as well.
Classic lines like ......."ur old"- love it.
Ur actually a breath of fresh air, even if it smells like a fart sometimes.
Keep postin dogs. Join the cypher.
Deej's crtitique was a little heavyhanded.
Don't try to pull me into your little windmill battling.
I didn't like "The Chronic" when it came out because, sonically, I just wasn't ready to be open to the aesthetic shift from the shit I really liked (aka NY Golden Era) to the rise of G-Funk and gangsta rap. My opposition to it was, for lack of a better term, ideological (and at that age, that kind of shit mattered to me a lot more than it does now).
I never, throughout the years, complained about "The Chronic" being a bad album. And I never withheld giving it its due for being influential. But for the most part, I just largely steered clear of it and it wasn't until many years down the road that I actually sat down and LISTENED TO IT and by that time, was far more open, sonically, to what the album had to bring. And you know what? It's a really good fucking album. And if there's "filler" on there, I think you need to step up lil soldier and actually state what songs on there qualify as "filler."
I mean, I don't like about half of "Low End Theory" but not because I think those songs are "filler". Nor does it dim my enthusiasm for the album as a whole (or any other album which I might deem "classic" even if I don't find it to be an end-to-end burner).
^^^^^^^^^^^COPPING PLEAS!
Intentionally disconnected???
I was young. I cop to that plea.
By the way - on the Kris Kross tip...
When I was in Shanghai, I met this local rapper who's considered "OG" for Shanghai (meaning: he's been rapping since the '90s). His name, in English, is spelled BlaKK Bubble (I'll get to that KK part in a second). "Black Bubble" translated into Mandarin is pronounced "hay powpow" which was this guy's Chinglish version of "hip hop" (since, at the time, there was no Chinese term for "hip hop"). Basically, his name literally means "hip hop."
So I asked him, "what's up with the KK?" and he explained that it was an homage to Kris Kross because that was the first rap group he ever heard and Kris Kross was to him what Run DMC was to people in my generation. You have to keep in mind: in Shanghai (and most of China), most of the American pop music that gets "imported" is all through bootlegging or warehouse cut-outs and vendors have no clue as to what they're selling. But for big selling artists, there's more cut-outs that get released and therefore, make their way into third world markets like China. According to my local friends, the single biggest rapper amongst Chinese youth of the '90s was MC Hammer simply because his album was easy to find.
So in that sense, our Yung Deej shares something in common with billions of Chinese people in lionizing that greatness that was Kris Kross. I'm sure in Shanghai, "Warm It Up" IS a classic.
Lionizing "classic" albums at the expense of contemporary albums is an all too common phenomenon amongst "old heads" and displays their "disconnection from the streets" more than it says anything worthwhile about the "current state of hip-hop."
-e
Again, I'm not sure that is what's happened in this thread. I think that's the strawman that young cats like Deej are trying to prop up but no one here has said (I don't think) that "contemporary rap albums universally suck shit". I think the most controversial statement made was that there were better rap ALBUMS being made at a certain point in the past because the recording industry was more open to an album-oriented model vs. what has usually been the norm pre and post New School = singles-driven market.
But no one's said, "there are no good albums anymore."
As for the tilting at windmills thing - my point wasn't to bash the chronic, which I even said was probably the most impactful rap album to ever be released but to agree with O-Dub - plenty of great albums have tracks that are skippable. So when people get all up in arms about so-called 'filler' on "King" or whatever new albums are dropping, I'm like..."and?" How is "Bankhead" any more 'filler' than "Rat-tat-tat"? As much as I hate the new E-40 single I think the album is dope (the dick sucking song also sucks) and I could see it reasonably being called 'classic' a few years from now when the dust settles.
I've been intentionally over-provacative I guess but I don't think I even disagree with most of you on the whole, I just don't think that 'golden age' albums are going to be any less classic than albums that drop now. And I think the "rap is a singles genre now" thing is a cheap condescending perspective (even if unintentionally so). I'll be the first to say that rap is full of shitty artists, shitty albums, albums with unneccessary annoying shit. But when an album hits you, it doesn't matter if the odd t-pain cameo or "High Powered" fucks things up, it can still be a great album. (PS to O-Dub: The songs I don't like as much are the ones that sound just like NWA circa Efil4zaggin - did you like those tracks more than the singles at the time? What did you think of that NWA release?)
Its like rap is the only genre where fans are always judging the albums in fractions, "Man this was dope but I can only give it a 15/19". Unless old people said its 'classic,' in which case saying its got some weak tracks is heresy.
It has been tooken there.
Not at all. And there's nothing condescending about suggesting that hip-hop has largely been a singles-driven genre.
But if we're going to talk about important rap ALBUMS then the trends in the format are relevant for discussion here. This would be a very different conversation if we were talking about important rap ARTISTS, in which case, the criteria becomes based on songs rather than albums per se. There's a lot of artists who've dropped hot to def songs throughout their careers without ever coming with something that resembles a sick ass album.
That said, within the conventional world of music criticism/publications - the album is considered the "proper" format for discussion. That doesn't mean magazines have it right, I'm merely noting the convention.
Personally? I like albums. I like the idea that an album showcases different dimensions to an artist besides the ability to drop hot singles. And I don't really think the album is "dead" insofar as so long as artists actually are putting out albums (and I include mix-CDs in this too), there's always the possibility for unforeseen cuts to rise to the top on the basis of chance rather than whatever songs the label or even artist picks to hit. I like that surprise element to music-making and I think the album lends itself to that.
This all said though, I try not to be beholden to albums as the end-all, be-all. It's good to be flexible.
Do you really want to get into an argument over whether or not "Warm It Up > "U and Dat"? Seems a bit pointless - I was never ravaging your taste in any case (perhaps you're confusing my posts with someone else's. My mere point was that Kris Kross was big in China). Methinks perhaps you're being a little overly defensive over the fact that people are making fun of Kris Kross being your definitive rap group as a kid. I mean, it's not your fault you weren't born 10 years earlier.
Anyways...
1) There is a big difference between describing a track as "skippable" vs. describing it as "filler." It's the difference between someone saying, "personally, I can't really get with [insert song title here]" vs. "that song sucks." People are responding to you because they hear you saying the latter. My point is that I may not want to listen to "Let Me Ride" 10,000 times but I wouldn't call the song trash either.
But sure, I agree that there are plenty of classic albums with weak songs on them but if I recall, where you got into trouble was asserting that "Chronic 2001" was a better album than "The Chronic" because the latter had weaker shit than the former. I'd say that song-for-song analysis is not the only means by which a "classic" album is determined. (It doesn't hurt though).
2) "I just don't think that 'golden age' albums are going to be any less classic than albums that drop now."
On one level, I can respect that because I think it's important to respect the fact that just because you and your generation of listeners don't like the same things as another generation of listeners, doesn't make any one p.o.v. any more or less valid. That's why I don't ascribe to "hip hop is dead" rhetoric since clearly, for millions, it's not.
However, the whole idea of a golden era and classics is all about canons and consensus. The inherent "rightness or wrongness" of such classifications are, of course, open to criticism but bottomline, they still carry weight. I mean, we consider the golden era of funk to be 69-73 or some shit even though there continued to be funk produced to this very day. But in the minds of a critical mass of people, funk's best era was those few years. The same could be applied to jazz albums. Or blues albums. Or rock albums. Etc. Maybe this is just a sign that the dinosaurs in these respective genres have too much clout. Or maybe not. I mean, is jazz in 2006 as good as it was in 1966?
And if it's not, then why do we expect that hip-hop would be consistent throughout time? Do people really think that, say, 1989 and 1999 were equivalent hip-hop years?
thanks for taking the time...I didn't mean to imply that I was responding only to you in that post, a lot of ppl were throwing stuff at me in that thread so it was a general response. Kris Kross werent even 'the definitive' rap group for me! It was just the first tape I bought with my own money and I thought it was funny dude was trying to diss me for liking Jay-Z's Vol. 3 (which is seriously great). Chronic and Doggystyle were much more definitive for my experience of what rap music was. I prob am coming off as more defensive than I mean to.
I didn't even mean to imply that Chronic had weaker shit than 2001 - just fewer strong tracks. 2001 hasn't been as overplayed (I mean, it was ubiquitous, but still not on the Chronic's level) and it had more hot tracks. Obviously, this is an IMO thing, but it benefited from being longer and more focused. I think my bigger complaint about the Chronic is that only a few of the songs matched up to the singles in terms of sonic cohesion and modern-ness, too many tracks that sounded like they could have been dropped on the NWA albums; Doggystyle was much more consistent in terms of the new g-funk sound.
Fair enough on skippable vs. filler - I was being more provacative (er "heavy handed" as whoever said) than I needed to be. I don't see what i've said as being any more of a heresy than dudes saying suspect things like "That chappelle movie really brought back how good hip-hop used to be," but I guess you guys are used to that by now so it gets like zero response?
As for hip-hop - I certainly don't think hip-hop's gonna be dope forever, and yeah there will be a golden age. But I don't feel like we're far enough removed to make that assertion yet that the golden age has passed; the thing that keeps me questioning is 1. All the dudes I've read who were writing stuff in '94 saying "hip-hop sucks now" 2. All the music from the late 90s and early 00s that I love that has yet to get the respect it deserves from 'heads'. To me it was just as much its own golden age, the period where popular music was great in clubs but didn't lose its street edge and the variety of sounds in terms of production had never been more diverse (certainly more diverse than the early 90s golden age in either new york or cali) - when mainstream rap opened the channels beyond those two geographies, I think its easy to say that was the beginning of a new 'golden age.' As far as I can tell rap still has its youthful audience, its political and socioeconomic edge, its creative vitality.
Also I agree with yr post above the last one 100% - for a recent example, the Yo Gotti album has a bunch of great tracks that wouldn't make much sense as singles, but as explorations of dude's persona its a pretty great release. Albums like that and Trap Muzik are the reason I have trouble thinking the rap album is dead in the 00s.
In threads like this i always end up sounding totally humorless
You felt disrespected because I suggested that your opinion on this particular record was linked to the moment you heard it ?
You're overly sensitive. There's nothing wrong with being young. Who can deny that the first rap album you hear always had a special place ?
I mean I discovered rap with Raising Hell and Licensed To Ill, and no body could convince me that King Of Rock is better than Raising Hell, or that The Fat Boys were better than the Beastie BOys. I'm sure other people feel different.
I'm always surprised when I spin some random old track at a club or on the radio, to see the reaction of some people to, say Boss or Rumpletillskins. Some stuff that is half way decent to someone will bring memories back to someone else.
Now children!
So did I. What was the point in noting this though?
How many of these albums from 1996 would you consider above-average to "classics":
-A Tribe Called Quest "Beats, Rhymes and Life"
-A+ "Latch-Key Child"
-Al Tariq "God Connections"
-Bahamadia "Kollage"
-Big Noyd "Episodes Of A Hustla"
-Blahzay Blahzay "Blah, Blah, Blah"
-Busta Rhymes "The Coming"
-Cella Dwellas "Realms 'N Reality"
-Chino XL "Here To Save You All"
-Crucial Conflict "The Final Tic"
-De La Soul "Stakes Is High"
-DJ Shadow "Endtroducing..."
-Dr. Octagon "Dr. Octagonecologyst"
-Dru Down "Can You Feel Me"
-E-40 "Tha Hall Of Game"
-Fugees "The Score"
-Geto Boys "The Resurrection"
-Ghostface Killah "Ironman"
-Heather B "Takin Mine"
-Heltah Skeltah "Nocturnal"
-Jay-Z "Reasonable Doubt"
-Jeru the Damaja "Wrath of the Math"
-Keith Murray "Enigma"
-Kwest Tha Madd Lad "This Is My First Album"
-Lil 1/2 Dead "Steel on a Mission"
-Lord Finesse "The Awakening"
-Mobb Deep "Hell On Earth"
-M.O.P. "Firing Squad"
-Mr. Mike "Wicked Wayz"
-Nas "It Was Written"
-Nine "Cloud 9"
-O.G.C. "Da Storm"
-Outkast "ATLiens"
-Ras Kass "Soul On Ice"
-Real Live "The Turnaround: A Long Awaited Drama"
-Redman "Muddy Waters"
-Richie Rich "Seasoned Veteran"
-The Roots "Illadelph Halflife"
-Sadat X "Wild Cowboys"
-Mad Skillz "From Where?"
-Slum Village "Fantastic Vol. 1"
-Smoothe Da Hustler "Once Upon A Time In America"
-2Pac "All Eyez On Me"
-2Pac/Makaveli "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory"
-U.G.K. "Ridin' Dirty"
-Westside Connection "Bow Down"
-Xzibit "At The Speed Of Life"
-Young Lay "Black 'N Dangerous"
I don't know if I'd call all of the above records classic, but they're not bad to play from time to time.
I can't believe anybody will actually describe this schitt as "above average to classic" with a straight face.
-A Tribe Called Quest "Beats, Rhymes and Life"
-Busta Rhymes "The Coming"
-DJ Shadow "Endtroducing..."
-Heltah Skeltah "Nocturnal"
-Jeru the Damaja "Wrath of the Math"
-Nas "It Was Written"
-The Roots "Illadelph Halflife"
Classics:
-Outkast "ATLiens"
-Ras Kass "Soul On Ice"
-2Pac "All Eyez On Me"
-2Pac/Makaveli "The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory"
-U.G.K. "Ridin' Dirty"