Your last paragraph I think is totally on point, odub, and i think thats what i was trying to get at when i said that its much more difficult to predict the consensus choices now.
I don't agree with the 'test of time' thing, tho... http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:IuU3...t=clnk&cd=1 berube article that may relate to this. The 'test of time' is just what people - like us - decide in between an albums release and whatever point in the future (say 15 years) we imagine these sorts of things will be 'settled'. So its discussions like this one right here that decide these sorts of arguments - like when people came to the conclusion that, you know what, Reasonable Doubt is dope, where were we when it dropped? (I actually think RD is totally overrated in Jay's catalogue but thats another story)
As far as I'm concerned, the quality of the hip-hop album hasn't decreased, in a general sense - i think you have stronger years and weaker ones, but i'd take '03 over '96, and '94 over '05. But I just don't buy the whole 'hip-hop no longer has good albums' thing.
I don't mean to be overenthusiastically booster-ing 00s rap music; when i say i can name a list of 4-5 mic rap albums from the 00s, i mean a list whose size would be comparable to one you could make for the early 90s. Sure, plenty of rap albums I think are great are imperfect, but thats true of early 90s 'classics' too. Like I said, classic status sands the edges off of an album. Thats why people will (wrongly) argue that Reasonable Doubt > Vol. 3, or Chronic > Chronic 2001 (On singles I'll go with the former, as an album I pull the latter out WAYYY more often).
I firmly believe par example Trap Muzik is a 5 mic album, and his last two are solid 4-4 and a half efforts. We'll see if folks come around to that kind of thinking, but whether or not they do - I think Trap Muzik is just as good as any of the classic early 90s rap releases you could put it up against. I don't have anything against old rap, its just that sometimes this whole 'rap albums aren't as good as they used to be, back when Premier was the best producer out there!' thing gets almost as suffocating as the baby boomers going on about how all music today pales in comparison to the beatles. Who gives a shit?
What if I want a classic album that doesn't sound like it was made in New York?
Thats why people will (wrongly)rightly[/b] argue that Reasonable Doubt > Vol. 3, or Chronic > Chronic 2001
You might have a closer debate around "RD" vs. "Vol 3" though, as far as I'm concerned, "Vol 3" is a close fourth behind "Reasonable Doubt," "Blueprint" and "The Black Album." But dude, as much as I like "Chronic 2001" - and it does have great production, "The Chronic" is a game-changing, paradigm-shifting album not to mention being an amazing effort aesthetically. To rank "2001" ahead of "The Chronic" is only possible in the absence of history.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off All For One. but the other 50% is heat.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off Doggystyle. but the other 50% is heat.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off Wolf In Sheep's Clothing. but the other 50% is heat.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off Cypress Hill. but the other 50% is heat.
And so forth.
It's an exaggeration, obviously - but you can definitely cut 25% off of almost every "classic" rap album. The whole argument that modern joints "only have 5 or 6 bangers" is flawed, because it only seems so obvious because albums now have 30 tracks! How many "bangers" are on "Paid In Full?" and how many of those were a year old when the album dropped? How many classics on "All for One?" This shit ain't new - hip hop just has that old arena-rock "double LP" syndrome and dudes are spreading theyselves thin as fat-free mayo.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off All For One. but the other 50% is heat.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off Doggystyle. but the other 50% is heat.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off Wolf In Sheep's Clothing. but the other 50% is heat.
they couldve cut out like 50% of the tracks off Cypress Hill. but the other 50% is heat.
And so forth.
It's an exaggeration, obviously - but you can definitely cut 25% off of almost every "classic" rap album. The whole argument that modern joints "only have 5 or 6 bangers" is flawed, because it only seems so obvious because albums now have 30 tracks! How many "bangers" are on "Paid In Full?" and how many of those were a year old when the album dropped? How many classics on "All for One?" This shit ain't new - hip hop just has that old arena-rock "double LP" syndrome and dudes are spreading theyselves thin as fat-free mayo.
This is what makes "Illmatic" so ill. Less is sometimes more. LPs with more than 12 songs tend to have a least some hot-dog filler material. The problem is that labels provide much less artist development these days than say, 10-15 years ago. Production coordination had a lot to do with the classics of yesteryear.
Why are so few singing the praises of San Quinn's album?
Is your copy of that album different from mine?
Seriously. I mean I have always had love for Quinn despite his annoying voice and lackluster delivery. For real, since the early GLP days, etc. And he has always repped hard for the Bay, especially when no one was really checking for Bay rap. In other words, I want to like this album.
But it's really bad. The first track is nice. And it's funny you consider "Do That for Me" to be a dud since that was one of the only other tracks I'm really feeling.
Interesting discussion going on here... For me, 1987-1994 was definitely Golden Age for Hip-Hop, which does not necessarily mean that new stuff simply sucks and everything back in the days was great (there was plenty of crap - no doubt). However, evolution of sampling based on MPC/SP1200, style of rapping aso all really came up and had their breakthrough in this period. For me that still means, if I want to listen to battle rap I pick Lord Finesse - Funky Technician, if I want dope simple one loop-one scratch production Daily Operation aso. I can??t really see new stuff on or even above this level, although I like Stones Throw, Def Jux and PUTS,UD,J5... Regarding the rapping I don??t really expect anything anymore. There is a standard, there are good - sometimes excellent - rappers, but - to be honest - I would argue that everything is already said and there is no exceptional "new" talent around. What I am really missing is some "new" stuff, inventions, ideas. Most of the people still produce extremely simple instrumentals based on one loop, which was (if well done) new, fresh and dope around 15-20 years ago. Nowadays this is - in my opinion - simply not enough anymore. There was a recent thread on instrumental hip-hop and I think that??s a major point in this context.
Doesn??t mean that Hip-Hop sucks at all and nothing comes out, but the added value in the last years is hard to find. In my case that means I prefer to complete my "Golden Age" collection, instead of buying new stuff.
Alot of u cats are just spoiled and want to be spoon fed by the wack ass industry. I remember when there were no HIP HOP albums. You had to live it to get it. If you think we'll have another "golden age " again, keep dreamin. Cats are going to work harder at gettin the good stuff like we used to do. Shit is like gettin exotic fish.
Alot of u cats are just spoiled and want to be spoon fed by the wack ass industry. I remember when there were no HIP HOP albums. You had to live it to get it. If you think we'll have another "golden age " again, keep dreamin. Cats are going to work harder at gettin the good stuff like we used to do. Shit is like gettin exotic fish.
I don't understand this.
I am a rap LISTENER not ARTIST. Is it too much to ask that rap ARTISTS make dope music for me, the rap LISTENER?
Why is this asking to be spoon-fed? Isn't that just how it should work? Why should I have to put any effort into it - that's their job.
Alot of u cats are just spoiled and want to be spoon fed by the wack ass industry. I remember when there were no HIP HOP albums. You had to live it to get it. If you think we'll have another "golden age " again, keep dreamin. Cats are going to work harder at gettin the good stuff like we used to do. Shit is like gettin exotic fish.
I don't understand this.
I am a rap LISTENER not ARTIST. Is it too much to ask that rap ARTISTS make dope music for me, the rap LISTENER?
Why is this asking to be spoon-fed? Isn't that just how it should work? Why should I have to put any effort into it - that's their job.
True, its their job to create good work, but to become dependant on the industry to provide you the culture is kinda daunting IMO. The Mixtape game has gone bananas. I dont cop alot of them, but whenever i spaek to my peoples they say " yo did hear that mixtape where so and so killed that so and so beat" Tower records/mtv/itunes and whomever else cant be held to provide us w/ the only outlets to get good art. Youll now have to carefully read the labels of the food your eating. Some of the responsability lies on us.
Thats why people will (wrongly)rightly[/b] argue that Reasonable Doubt > Vol. 3, or Chronic > Chronic 2001
You might have a closer debate around "RD" vs. "Vol 3" though, as far as I'm concerned, "Vol 3" is a close fourth behind "Reasonable Doubt," "Blueprint" and "The Black Album." But dude, as much as I like "Chronic 2001" - and it does have great production, "The Chronic" is a game-changing, paradigm-shifting album not to mention being an amazing effort aesthetically. To rank "2001" ahead of "The Chronic" is only possible in the absence of history.
I think obv Chronic is a classic for its historical importance, no other album completely changed the game like it did. But regardless that shit is three hot singles, a couple dope album tracks and plenty of garbage. 2001 is more consistent and it bangs and sounds more modern, so I'm more likely to bump it these days.
Jay-Z is actually one of the artists that made me start to question 'the canon' because I've heard his entire catalogue (like most rap nerds) so I'm just telling you which music from his career I gravitate more towards lately; his mid-period stuff seems to define what made Jay-Z Jay-Z; Reasonable doubt is a very mid-90s record, some great rapping but none of the swagger and defining-its-time style of shit like "Money Cash Hoes" or "Big Pimpin" or anything where Jay just ripped Timbaland and Swizz tracks and sounded ruthless; I'd take "So Ghetto" over any of the Premo tracks on RD in a second, its got more attitude and swagger than anything he did with Premo before.
I loved Blueprint when it came out and I think BP2 was underrated, but its 2006 and that soul sound that was so refreshing in '01 is super-tired now, so I don't really pull out BP as much any more. Also, Jay-Z's gone soft.
My favorite Jay song right now is "Where I'm From" off Vol. 1 though.
I'd say an argument could be made for Raising Hell, donno how much PE really changed the game (in comparison). But I probably like Nation of Millions more than either Raising Hell or Chronic as an album, so that goes to show how little historical impact is related to quality.
Thats why people will (wrongly) argue that Reasonable Doubt > Vol. 3, or Chronic > Chronic 2001 (On singles I'll go with the former, as an album I pull the latter out WAYYY more often).
Yeah, but it's probably because Vol.3 was the first album you've heard in your life.
I disagree about Z-Ro having a better album, JWMV is his masterpiece to me.
I'd take "Let The Truth Be Told". An instant classic. That record doesn't get enough shine on the strut. For people who are lamenting the passing of the golden age, stop & cop.
Comments
I don't agree with the 'test of time' thing, tho...
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:IuU3...t=clnk&cd=1
berube article that may relate to this.
The 'test of time' is just what people - like us - decide in between an albums release and whatever point in the future (say 15 years) we imagine these sorts of things will be 'settled'. So its discussions like this one right here that decide these sorts of arguments - like when people came to the conclusion that, you know what, Reasonable Doubt is dope, where were we when it dropped? (I actually think RD is totally overrated in Jay's catalogue but thats another story)
As far as I'm concerned, the quality of the hip-hop album hasn't decreased, in a general sense - i think you have stronger years and weaker ones, but i'd take '03 over '96, and '94 over '05. But I just don't buy the whole 'hip-hop no longer has good albums' thing.
I don't mean to be overenthusiastically booster-ing 00s rap music; when i say i can name a list of 4-5 mic rap albums from the 00s, i mean a list whose size would be comparable to one you could make for the early 90s. Sure, plenty of rap albums I think are great are imperfect, but thats true of early 90s 'classics' too. Like I said, classic status sands the edges off of an album. Thats why people will (wrongly) argue that Reasonable Doubt > Vol. 3, or Chronic > Chronic 2001 (On singles I'll go with the former, as an album I pull the latter out WAYYY more often).
I firmly believe par example Trap Muzik is a 5 mic album, and his last two are solid 4-4 and a half efforts. We'll see if folks come around to that kind of thinking, but whether or not they do - I think Trap Muzik is just as good as any of the classic early 90s rap releases you could put it up against. I don't have anything against old rap, its just that sometimes this whole 'rap albums aren't as good as they used to be, back when Premier was the best producer out there!' thing gets almost as suffocating as the baby boomers going on about how all music today pales in comparison to the beatles. Who gives a shit?
What if I want a classic album that doesn't sound like it was made in New York?
You might have a closer debate around "RD" vs. "Vol 3" though, as far as I'm concerned, "Vol 3" is a close fourth behind "Reasonable Doubt," "Blueprint" and "The Black Album." But dude, as much as I like "Chronic 2001" - and it does have great production, "The Chronic" is a game-changing, paradigm-shifting album not to mention being an amazing effort aesthetically. To rank "2001" ahead of "The Chronic" is only possible in the absence of history.
And so forth.
It's an exaggeration, obviously - but you can definitely cut
25% off of almost every "classic" rap album. The whole argument
that modern joints "only have 5 or 6 bangers" is flawed, because
it only seems so obvious because albums now have 30 tracks!
How many "bangers" are on "Paid In Full?" and how many of those
were a year old when the album dropped? How many classics on "All for One?"
This shit ain't new - hip hop just has that old arena-rock "double LP" syndrome
and dudes are spreading theyselves thin as fat-free mayo.
This is what makes "Illmatic" so ill. Less is sometimes more. LPs with more than 12 songs tend to have a least some hot-dog filler material. The problem is that labels provide much less artist development these days than say, 10-15 years ago. Production coordination had a lot to do with the classics of yesteryear.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Seriously. I mean I have always had love for Quinn despite his annoying voice and lackluster delivery. For real, since the early GLP days, etc. And he has always repped hard for the Bay, especially when no one was really checking for Bay rap. In other words, I want to like this album.
But it's really bad. The first track is nice. And it's funny you consider "Do That for Me" to be a dud since that was one of the only other tracks I'm really feeling.
But the rest is
Bring back D-Moe.
For me, 1987-1994 was definitely Golden Age for Hip-Hop, which does not necessarily mean that new stuff simply sucks and everything back in the days was great (there was plenty of crap - no doubt). However, evolution of sampling based on MPC/SP1200, style of rapping aso all really came up and had their breakthrough in this period.
For me that still means, if I want to listen to battle rap I pick Lord Finesse - Funky Technician, if I want dope simple one loop-one scratch production Daily Operation aso. I can??t really see new stuff on or even above this level, although I like Stones Throw, Def Jux and PUTS,UD,J5...
Regarding the rapping I don??t really expect anything anymore. There is a standard, there are good - sometimes excellent - rappers, but - to be honest - I would argue that everything is already said and there is no exceptional "new" talent around.
What I am really missing is some "new" stuff, inventions, ideas. Most of the people still produce extremely simple instrumentals based on one loop, which was (if well done) new, fresh and dope around 15-20 years ago. Nowadays this is - in my opinion - simply not enough anymore. There was a recent thread on instrumental hip-hop and I think that??s a major point in this context.
Doesn??t mean that Hip-Hop sucks at all and nothing comes out, but the added value in the last years is hard to find. In my case that means I prefer to complete my "Golden Age" collection, instead of buying new stuff.
Old school beats with samples is cool, but 9 times out of 10 they aint knock in the trunk.
Its apples and oranges my friends. The only thing you can be sure of is that its about to morph into something that you will hate EVEN WORSE!!
That's a surprise. I can listen to this album from start to finish without skipping a track. One of my favorite albums of recent memory.
BAN.
Do you even play Basketball?
I remember when there were no HIP HOP albums. You had to live it to get it.
If you think we'll have another "golden age " again, keep dreamin. Cats are going to work harder at gettin the good stuff like we used to do. Shit is like gettin exotic fish.
I don't understand this.
I am a rap LISTENER not ARTIST. Is it too much to ask that rap ARTISTS make dope music for me, the rap LISTENER?
Why is this asking to be spoon-fed? Isn't that just how it should work? Why should I have to put any effort into it - that's their job.
I don't know why you write shit like this if you don't believe it, 'cause it just makes you look like a cornball.
Sorry.
True, its their job to create good work, but to become dependant on the industry to provide you the culture is kinda daunting IMO. The Mixtape game has gone bananas. I dont cop alot of them, but whenever i spaek to my peoples they say " yo did hear that mixtape where so and so killed that so and so beat" Tower records/mtv/itunes and whomever else cant be held to provide us w/ the only outlets to get good art.
Youll now have to carefully read the labels of the food your eating. Some of the responsability lies on us.
I think obv Chronic is a classic for its historical importance, no other album completely changed the game like it did. But regardless that shit is three hot singles, a couple dope album tracks and plenty of garbage. 2001 is more consistent and it bangs and sounds more modern, so I'm more likely to bump it these days.
Jay-Z is actually one of the artists that made me start to question 'the canon' because I've heard his entire catalogue (like most rap nerds) so I'm just telling you which music from his career I gravitate more towards lately; his mid-period stuff seems to define what made Jay-Z Jay-Z; Reasonable doubt is a very mid-90s record, some great rapping but none of the swagger and defining-its-time style of shit like "Money Cash Hoes" or "Big Pimpin" or anything where Jay just ripped Timbaland and Swizz tracks and sounded ruthless; I'd take "So Ghetto" over any of the Premo tracks on RD in a second, its got more attitude and swagger than anything he did with Premo before.
I loved Blueprint when it came out and I think BP2 was underrated, but its 2006 and that soul sound that was so refreshing in '01 is super-tired now, so I don't really pull out BP as much any more. Also, Jay-Z's gone soft.
My favorite Jay song right now is "Where I'm From" off Vol. 1 though.
Before u give a kneejerk reaction , just remember u said "completely changed the game" not what's the better album.
You should ask DR. DRE if he was influenced by the Bomb Squad's production.
More so culturally than artisticly
i'm listening
They were at the forefront of globaliziing hip hop, especially w/ this lp.
ok
I'd take "Let The Truth Be Told". An instant classic. That record doesn't get enough shine on the strut. For people who are lamenting the passing of the golden age, stop & cop.
No wonder.