I didn't see a call to ban. I just thought it was a personal choice, which I respect. I respect people who take higher ground, not try to drag them down to my level so I don't have to feel guilty.
I've enjoyed a few Sienfeld episodes but I could care less. Sienfeld made fun of white people, too and the cast were anti heros. If you didn't recognize that, then you may be as fucked as their characters.
I probably wouldn't have watched another Sienfeld episode anyway. Over it.
In default-Strut mode (15 posts per page), its up to 25 pages! I just switched up to 30 posts per page so that this thread would appear more sane (only 13 pages). :5pager: + :5pager: + :5pager:
I didn't see a call to ban. I just thought it was a personal choice, which I respect. I respect people who take higher ground, not try to drag them down to my level so I don't have to feel guilty.
I've enjoyed a few Sienfeld episodes but I could care less. Sienfeld made fun of white people, too and the cast were anti heros. If you didn't recognize that, then you may be as fucked as their characters.
I probably wouldn't have watched another Sienfeld episode anyway. Over it.
I really didn't realize I was dragging people down. I respect personal choice as well. I honestly could give a rat's ass who does or doesn't watch it. I think the point I made, to which you snarkily responded, is legit.
That's fine if you don't want to watch "Seinfeld" anymore because you are that principled, but I hope no one starts equating "watching Seinfeld" with "condoning racism".
I'm boycotting stand up comics, they say things that might be construed as offensive. I've seen some stand up comics go as far as naming white people as a group and saying that, as a group, they all do something funny. Then I saw some of these same comics say that black people as a whole do something really generalized, these guys have no morals, it's not just black and white people that get mentioned in their "acts" sometimes they talk about latinos, women, fat people...all kind of groups! shit's been so prejudiced that, in light of this, I feel ashamed that I actually sat through any of it. No longer though I need to stregthen my principals. Stand up comics are dangerous individuals
I'm boycotting stand up comics, they say things that most might be construed as offensive. I've seen some stand up comics go as far as naming white people as a group and saying that, as a group, they all do something funny. Then I saw some of these same comics say that black people as a whole do something really generalized, these guys have no morals, it's not just black and white people that get mentioned in their "acts" sometimes they talk about latinos, women, fat people...all kind of groups! shit's been so prejudiced that, in light of this, I feel ashamed that I actually sat through any of it. No longer though I need to stregthen my principals. Stand up comics are dangerous individuals
WHO'S WITH ME?
Paradise...a world where the only comedian is Louie Anderson.
I'm boycotting stand up comics, they say things that might be construed as offensive. I've seen some stand up comics go as far as naming white people as a group and saying that, as a group, they all do something funny. Then I saw some of these same comics say that black people as a whole do something really generalized, these guys have no morals, it's not just black and white people that get mentioned in their "acts" sometimes they talk about latinos, women, fat people...all kind of groups! shit's been so prejudiced that, in light of this, I feel ashamed that I actually sat through any of it. No longer though I need to stregthen my principals. Stand up comics are dangerous individuals
WHO'S WITH ME?
Not supporting people who you personally find really offensive sounds reasonable to me.
I dont get this boycott of Seinfeld...I know I have said it three times already, but no one is getting rid of Ike and James LPs due to them being misogynists, why stop watching a TV show because of one actors racists feelings?
You mean Skrewdriver and yeah Shove the Dove is some catchy shit! And it's aboout hating peace too which is ridiculous and amazing.
I mean, of course part of me listens to it ironically, but then again, do you have to identify with something to appreciate it or even like it? I really dig that one Graveland album and that guy is like the most racist goon in all of black metal. I don't subscribe to either band's message at all, but I can look at it from the outside, see that their beliefs are part of this weird art going on and think it's interesting, even good. And, yknow, I'm a jew so they'd be happy to see me hacked up, but it don't matter.
You mean Skrewdriver and yeah Shove the Dove is some catchy shit! And it's aboout hating peace too which is ridiculous and amazing.
I mean, of course part of me listens to it ironically, but then again, do you have to identify with something to appreciate it or even like it? I really dig that one Graveland album and that guy is like the most racist goon in all of black metal. I don't subscribe to either band's message at all, but I can look at it from the outside, see that their beliefs are part of this weird art going on and think it's interesting, even good. And, yknow, I'm a jew so they'd be happy to see me hacked up, but it don't matter.
paul
I was waiting for Skrewdriver or Burzum to come up in this discussion. I've listened to both-- I think that most Skrewdriver output is grossly overrated. I'm wondering where the Brainbombs fans at?
I definitely stand by the assertion that finding something musically, or aethetically, etc., etc. rewarding doesn't indicate that you support all, most, or much of the the sentiment the artist is trying to advance. The reality is that few, if any of the musicians I listen to pass my political litmus test with a perfect score . . . And I'm generally not looking for a person's attitudes to mirror mine exactly. What's more, I think it's even possible to liisten to music where lyrics are at the forefront, enjoy the artistry and completely reject messages contained therein. Big L is one of my top ten . . probably higher than that. His cadence, economy of word, rhyme schemes. Everything on point in that regard. I think the bulk of the sentiment he expressed in rhyme is reprehensible. Also, in terms of logical debate, I may find the overarching sentiment someone is trying to advance is revolting, but I try to suspend my condemnation in such a way that I can make a critical assesment of everything the person is saying. Think about all the important social dialogues that were first widely articulated by people who have other ideas you might consider less than stellar.
Now, the concept of financially supporting individuals opens up another can of worms. And I find that I'm often pretty ambivalent about what I buy.
so how many of you "boycotters" are throwing away your Ike Turner and James Brown records?
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
Show me the video!
how about a quote form Tina about how he "busted her nose" so often she had to get surgery?
"It's a difference in cosmetic surgery and corrective surgery, right? Let's talk about cosmetic for beauty. I have had, basically, my face bashed in, and I never did anything about it," she says. "I just went through my life because I was all right. And then I started to have problems traveling with my sinuses, and I found that how my nose had healed many times," Turner explains.
Turner says Ike busted her nose "many times."
"But it was never really, really broken, but, I guess, damaged to a point that it started to heal and the healing process started to interfere with the sinuses. So when they went in to correct it, I ended up with???another nose," she says
Last night I got so angry about Kramer that I shat myself. Then I went off on a 10 minute tirade at my asshole. I kept calling it an asshole, which isn't really a diss, since thats what it is, and that made me so angry I pissed myself. Which made me even more furious, so I started to curse my penis, but the only thing I could think to call it was a 'dick', which is lame, because thats what it is. Then I was outrageously furious. I decided this was all my parents' fault, so I called up my dad and started screaming that he was a motherfucker. Then it hit me.... wait a second... oh no! I vomitted all over the place and then tore off my clothes and ran around the house screaming. I slipped in my own vomit, landed face first in my shitty underoos, and was so exhausted I fell asleep mumbling "i'm such a shithead...."
so how many of you "boycotters" are throwing away your Ike Turner and James Brown records?
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
So, if a non-white actor got up on stage and sincerely yelled the worst things about white folks you could possibly imagine, you would still support their craft by watching their TV shows?
If your principles don't kick in after that, then you're a sucker, and the real joke is on you.
so how many of you "boycotters" are throwing away your Ike Turner and James Brown records?
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
So, if a non-white actor got up on stage and sincerely yelled the worst things about white folks you could possibly imagine, you would still support their craft by watching their TV shows?
If your principles don't kick in after that, then you're a sucker, and the real joke is on you.
I'm being 100% serious.....
We've already established the fact that there is no white equivilent to the "N" word and that there is nothing that can be said to a caucasion that would equal the impact that using that word has.
So what could a "non-white" possibly say that would elicit that emotion??
That white people are evil and responsible for everything that's bad with the world??
That we're white "devils"??
That we eat a lot of mayonaise and have no rhythm??
Seriously, what can someone say derogatory about white people that isn't already being said, and accepted as appropriate??
I won't be insulted, but please give me an example of what could be said about whitey that would hurt us in the same way as Richard's words hurt the black community??
so how many of you "boycotters" are throwing away your Ike Turner and James Brown records?
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
So, if a non-white actor got up on stage and sincerely yelled the worst things about white folks you could possibly imagine, you would still support their craft by watching their TV shows?
If your principles don't kick in after that, then you're a sucker, and the real joke is on you.
If a musician beat a woman, someone's daughter, someone's mother, would you still support their craft?
Its the artist v. art argument.
All I am saying is that most folks only maintain principles that are convienent to them.
Watching Seinfeld does not condone racism
Listening to Ike or James does not condone misogyny
But if you are self-righteous enough to think so and act on one, you best be prepared to do the other...or you are a hypocrite.
so how many of you "boycotters" are throwing away your Ike Turner and James Brown records?
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
So, if a non-white actor got up on stage and sincerely yelled the worst things about white folks you could possibly imagine, you would still support their craft by watching their TV shows?
If your principles don't kick in after that, then you're a sucker, and the real joke is on you.
I'm being 100% serious.....
We've already established the fact that there is no white equivilent to the "N" word and that there is nothing that can be said to a caucasion that would equal the impact that using that word has.
So what could a "non-white" possibly say that would elicit that emotion??
That white people are evil and responsible for everything that's bad with the world??
That we're white "devils"??
That we eat a lot of mayonaise and have no rhythm??
Seriously, what can someone say derogatory about white people that isn't already being said, and accepted as appropriate??
I won't be insulted, but please give me an example of what could be said about whitey that would hurt us in the same way as Richard's words hurt the black community??
There is no functional equivalent to the N word, given it's historical context of violence, oppression, and continued racism.[/b]
I never said it did. But for someone like myself to support Michael Richards in any way (financially or otherwise) at this point would not be a wise idea. You don't think Jerry Seinfled was at all worried that Richards' comments would have a negative affect on sales of the Seinfeld DVD that was released on Tuesday? Please...
And if you were in my (our) shoes, I think you'd have a better understanding of what I've been trying to say.
so how many of you "boycotters" are throwing away your Ike Turner and James Brown records?
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
So, if a non-white actor got up on stage and sincerely yelled the worst things about white folks you could possibly imagine, you would still support their craft by watching their TV shows?
If your principles don't kick in after that, then you're a sucker, and the real joke is on you.
Well, I think one should distinguish between the way one personally feels upon hearing a group that one belongs to being bashed and the more objective moral implications of such bashing. I think bashing historically oppressed groups is immoral, but don't find the bashing of historically empowered groups, i.e. white folks, particularly disturbing. I'm not sure that there actually is anything a minority entertainer could say about white people that would be the deciding factor in me no longer consuming their work. I might cease to take it seriously, but if I continued to find it entertaining, I'd continue to listen to or view it. Hell, I grew up listening to NGE rap, as I suspect that a lot of white dudes on this site did and, while I think a lot of the ideas propounded by the NGE about white people are ridiculous, I've never felt morally impelled to boycott rap with that type of content.
Comments
I've enjoyed a few Sienfeld episodes but I could care less. Sienfeld made fun of white people, too and the cast were anti heros. If you didn't recognize that, then you may be as fucked as their characters.
I probably wouldn't have watched another Sienfeld episode anyway. Over it.
In default-Strut mode (15 posts per page), its up to 25 pages! I just switched up to 30 posts per page so that this thread would appear more sane (only 13 pages). :5pager: + :5pager: + :5pager:
I really didn't realize I was dragging people down. I respect personal choice as well. I honestly could give a rat's ass who does or doesn't watch it. I think the point I made, to which you snarkily responded, is legit.
Lets take it to the next level..
I'm boycotting stand up comics, they say things that might be construed as offensive. I've seen some stand up comics go as far as naming white people as a group and saying that, as a group, they all do something funny. Then I saw some of these same comics say that black people as a whole do something really generalized, these guys have no morals, it's not just black and white people that get mentioned in their "acts" sometimes they talk about latinos, women, fat people...all kind of groups!
shit's been so prejudiced that, in light of this, I feel ashamed that I actually sat through any of it. No longer though I need to stregthen my principals. Stand up comics are dangerous individuals
WHO'S WITH ME?
Paradise...a world where the only comedian is Louie Anderson.
I think I'll go kill myself now.
Thanks Guzzo
How about the People's Temple Singers?
You mean Skrewdriver and yeah Shove the Dove is some catchy shit! And it's aboout hating peace too which is ridiculous and amazing.
I mean, of course part of me listens to it ironically, but then again, do you have to identify with something to appreciate it or even like it? I really dig that one Graveland album and that guy is like the most racist goon in all of black metal. I don't subscribe to either band's message at all, but I can look at it from the outside, see that their beliefs are part of this weird art going on and think it's interesting, even good. And, yknow, I'm a jew so they'd be happy to see me hacked up, but it don't matter.
paul
none of you are.
Wow, ya'll really have...whats the word? I cant remember, my vocabulary is so small...help me Drewn...what was it?
I was waiting for Skrewdriver or Burzum to come up in this discussion.
I've listened to both-- I think that most Skrewdriver output is grossly overrated. I'm wondering where the Brainbombs fans at?
I definitely stand by the assertion that finding something musically, or aethetically, etc., etc. rewarding doesn't indicate that you support all, most, or much of the the sentiment the artist is trying to advance. The reality is that few, if any of the musicians I listen to pass my political litmus test with a perfect score . . . And I'm generally not looking for a person's attitudes to mirror mine exactly. What's more, I think it's even possible to liisten to music where lyrics are at the forefront, enjoy the artistry and completely reject messages contained therein. Big L is one of my top ten . . probably higher than that. His cadence, economy of word, rhyme schemes. Everything on point in that regard. I think the bulk of the sentiment he expressed in rhyme is reprehensible.
Also, in terms of logical debate, I may find the overarching sentiment someone is trying to advance is revolting, but I try to suspend my condemnation in such a way that I can make a critical assesment of everything the person is saying. Think about all the important social dialogues that were first widely articulated by people who have other ideas you might consider less than stellar.
Now, the concept of financially supporting individuals opens up another can of worms. And I find that I'm often pretty ambivalent about what I buy.
Add another page.
how about a quote form Tina about how he "busted her nose" so often she had to get surgery?
"It's a difference in cosmetic surgery and corrective surgery, right? Let's talk about cosmetic for beauty. I have had, basically, my face bashed in, and I never did anything about it," she says. "I just went through my life because I was all right. And then I started to have problems traveling with my sinuses, and I found that how my nose had healed many times," Turner explains.
Turner says Ike busted her nose "many times."
"But it was never really, really broken, but, I guess, damaged to a point that it started to heal and the healing process started to interfere with the sinuses. So when they went in to correct it, I ended up with???another nose," she says
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/23/60minutes/main1161164.shtml
Larry Fish gives a pretty good recreation on video.
fuck you, kramer.
So, if a non-white actor got up on stage and sincerely yelled the worst things about white folks you could possibly imagine, you would still support their craft by watching their TV shows?
If your principles don't kick in after that, then you're a sucker, and the real joke is on you.
I'm being 100% serious.....
We've already established the fact that there is no white equivilent to the "N" word and that there is nothing that can be said to a caucasion that would equal the impact that using that word has.
So what could a "non-white" possibly say that would elicit that emotion??
That white people are evil and responsible for everything that's bad with the world??
That we're white "devils"??
That we eat a lot of mayonaise and have no rhythm??
Seriously, what can someone say derogatory about white people that isn't already being said, and accepted as appropriate??
I won't be insulted, but please give me an example of what could be said about whitey that would hurt us in the same way as Richard's words hurt the black community??
Wordup!
- spidey
If a musician beat a woman, someone's daughter, someone's mother, would you still support their craft?
Its the artist v. art argument.
All I am saying is that most folks only maintain principles that are convienent to them.
Watching Seinfeld does not condone racism
Listening to Ike or James does not condone misogyny
But if you are self-righteous enough to think so and act on one, you best be prepared to do the other...or you are a hypocrite.
There is no functional equivalent to the N word, given it's historical context of violence, oppression, and continued racism.[/b]
I never said it did. But for someone like myself to support Michael Richards in any way (financially or otherwise) at this point would not be a wise idea. You don't think Jerry Seinfled was at all worried that Richards' comments would have a negative affect on sales of the Seinfeld DVD that was released on Tuesday? Please...
And if you were in my (our) shoes, I think you'd have a better understanding of what I've been trying to say.
Well, I think one should distinguish between the way one personally feels upon hearing a group that one belongs to being bashed and the more objective moral implications of such bashing. I think bashing historically oppressed groups is immoral, but don't find the bashing of historically empowered groups, i.e. white folks, particularly disturbing. I'm not sure that there actually is anything a minority entertainer could say about white people that would be the deciding factor in me no longer consuming their work. I might cease to take it seriously, but if I continued to find it entertaining, I'd continue to listen to or view it. Hell, I grew up listening to NGE rap, as I suspect that a lot of white dudes on this site did and, while I think a lot of the ideas propounded by the NGE about white people are ridiculous, I've never felt morally impelled to boycott rap with that type of content.