Plaese to point me to an instance, in this thread, of separation of art and artist.
Here's what I said way back on page 2:
Idiotic that so many people are unable to separate Michael Richards from Cosmo Kramer, a fictitious character that Richards played. I'll have no problem watching Seinfeld.
Well, I already knew you was good peeps, so there you go.
Richards tried to pull a Lenny Bruce, but real anger and true feelings fucked it all up...dude was/is worng, no doubt about it.
Yeah, I agree w/ you. Maybe a "retroactive" Lenny Bruce but you could tell he tried to spin it once he knew how horribly wrong he'd gone.
Does anyone know, has Richards *ever* done stand-up or is this a new venture as some of the other comedians alluded to. I'm thinking he's always been: actor/improv comic/ensemble comic.
Ag crowd + nervous/rookie stand-up act who thinks he's the schitt + pent-up shit = complete meltdown.
I finally got to watch that clip last night. Its was fuzzy so I couldn't read the subtitles, and also the audio was kind of distorted. He looked pretty psycho up there though.
On this whole forgiveness thing... the only people that can forgive him are the people in the audience that he called Nigger. And why should they? Because he said he was sorry? boo fucking hoo.
Kramer is not important. He's worthless. People are upset like he's some cultural icon because he opened the door funny on a TV show. wow.
Plaese to point me to an instance, in this thread, of separation of art and artist.
Here's what I said way back on page 2:
Idiotic that so many people are unable to separate Michael Richards from Cosmo Kramer, a fictitious character that Richards played. I'll have no problem watching Seinfeld.
Perhaps it's best not to put Richards in the context of the comedic genius of Cosmo Kramer (a classic TV character) but in the context of one of his earlier roles. Maybe people give him credit for being a pretty smart dude with deep-seeded beliefs but in reality he is just an ignorant MF. WHATEVER, he still made a funny janitor in UHF
dude does have a short trigger....remember he was in Fridays? Remember the (in)famous Andy Kaufman sketch, he had some serious rage in his eyes and looked like he wanted to curb Kaufman.(I know this is an obscure reference to some really old performance, but perhaps some of y'all remember it...maybe there is a youtube of it...)
dude does have a short trigger....remember he was in Fridays? Remember the (in)famous Andy Kaufman sketch, he had some serious rage in his eyes and looked like he wanted to curb Kaufman.(I know this is an obscure reference to some really old performance, but perhaps some of y'all remember it...maybe there is a youtube of it...)
Exactly....and for a split second I thought he was doing some Kauffman/Buddy Love attack the audience routine.......but he wasn't
Actually, that would be a pretty sweet idea for a show. "Pissing Off The Kramer Guy". It would be a reality show where the whole point is to make him go absolutely apeshit and then sit back and enjoy the show. And each episode you could have different types of people make him lose it, to see what he says. By the end of season 1 you would have blacks, jews, mexicans, the handicapped, old people, gays, middle easterners, people with freckles, stutterers, the seriously obese, vinyl nerds, newborn babies, a platypus, a hippy, etc. And the person that makes him say the most insanely foul shit wins a million dollars. Unless its the platypus, because they don't use people money.
Actually, that would be a pretty sweet idea for a show. "Pissing Off The Kramer Guy". It would be a reality show where the whole point is to make him go absolutely apeshit and then sit back and enjoy the show. And each episode you could have different types of people make him lose it, to see what he says. By the end of season 1 you would have blacks, jews, mexicans, the handicapped, old people, gays, middle easterners, people with freckles, stutterers, the seriously obese, vinyl nerds, newborn babies, a platypus, a hippy, etc. And the person that makes him say the most insanely foul shit wins a million dollars. Unless its the platypus, because they don't use people money.
Has anyone seen this show "Last Comic Standing"......dude who won this past year was seriously disabled with something like Muscular Dystrophy which gave him the advantage as he could tell jokes that no "normal" person could tell and get away with without being called a bigot. Great stuff!!
Man, I must be an insensitive prick. Cause, I wish more things like this would happen. There are so many serious issues involved and supressed anger, resentment and hidden ignorance in society today. It's to bad that dispecable acts like this happen. But we really should be bringing shit like this out into the open and addressing it.
Whats strange is, I believe comedy is one good way to do this. But it's sad that Richard's totally negative, ignorant and hurtful temporary loss of sanity will move us yet another step back, instead of forward.
I lost even a little more hope lastnight when a few on Letterman were laughing. Tho, I did gain a bit back when Seinfeld jumped in right away and told them to stop it and how it wasn't funny.
the very fact that, in a fit of anger, he decides to go on AN EXTENDED RANT about "niggers" and lynching is pretty damning evidence that...
...he's prejudiced!
Deal with it.
so you are a mind reader and a psychologist now too? who knows what was going through Kramer's head when he said those things. Keep in mind that he was on stage. Maybe he thought he was doing some next level Lenny Bruce shit. Or maybe he just has a lot of hate inside him. Who knows.
Are people really gonna stop watching Seinfeld now? I find Republicans more offensive than Kramer, should I boycott all Bruce Willis movies?
I don't get how you went from my comment to your comment.
Disconnection.
Why do you keep calling him Kramer, btw? Kramer is a TV character. Richards is the actor who played him.
And did you watch the video? Did you watch Richards' apology? It was not a "Lenny Bruce" skit.
Man, I must be an insensitive prick. Cause, I wish more things like this would happen. There are so many serious issues involved and supressed anger, resentment and hidden ignorance in society today. It's to bad that dispecable acts like this happen. But we really should be bringing shit like this out into the open and addressing it.
Whats strange is, I believe comedy is one good way to do this. But it's sad that Richard's totally negative, ignorant and hurtful temporary loss of sanity will move us yet another step back, instead of forward.
I lost even a little more hope lastnight when a few on Letterman were laughing. Tho, I did gain a bit back when Seinfeld jumped in right away and told them to stop it and how it wasn't funny.
Dor,
I actually agree with what you're saying - I think it'd be valuable for people to censor themselves less and be more frank about their actual feelings. It's the whole "wolf vs. fox" comparison that Malcolm X used to describe the Republicans vs. Democrats with. Better to have ugliness out in the open vs. hidden behind a bullshit smile.
But really - I think we need to at least be open to the idea that what happened with Richards' doesn't qualify as "comedy" - in that moment, he crossed the line out of using racism for the sake of comedy and instead, was trying to use comedy for the sake of racism.
I'm not sure how lynching jokes, in the context he made them, is supposed to be "funny" but it seemed as if Richards was trying to go there.
But really - I think we need to at least be open to the idea that what happened with Richards' doesn't qualify as "comedy" - in that moment, he crossed the line out of using racism for the sake of comedy and instead, was trying to use comedy for the sake of racism.
I'm not sure how lynching jokes, in the context he made them, is supposed to be "funny" but it seemed as if Richards was trying to go there.
Oh, no question.
What Richards was doing, was in no way comedy. It was just the venue where it took place. I see it more as a temporary loss of sanity mixed with what people do when they don't have anything better to say. They use the lowest form of ignorance and try to use it to their advantage. Which really only makes you sink to the garbage their spewing.
On a side note. One of my friends (Yeah yeah, I know I've plugged him on here a couple of times) does the whole comedy and race thing really well. It's more what I was thinking when I made the comment of how it can be used in a positive maner.
But people shouldn't totally hate on this thread. Out of the whole thing, there are small bits of worthy debate and/or discussion.
Plaese to point me to an instance, in this thread, of separation of art and artist.
one response I got from my Ike turner analogy was "Ike didnt beat women on stage in front of people"...so it is ok to practice your hate and prejudcies in private, but take it to the stage and it is wrong and everything you have done artistically in the past is then negated?
If you've never seen a video of Ike beating a woman on stage then you can't be sure that seeing that wouldn't, in your mind, negate everything he's done artistically.
Your Ike/Richards analogy was faulty to begin with.
Here's where I sound white, or at the very least, like an optimist who believes in the fundamental nature of humans to redeem themselves, despite all american racial historical evidence to the contrary:
I was kinda rooting for the dude when he first appeared on Letterman. Respect to Seinfeld telling the audience to stop laughing.
But here's where my sympathy ends: Richards' apology wasn't good. He's torn up; good, he should be. He seemed genuinely disturbed. But as much as he tried to apologize, he seemed to neglect the fundamental nature of what was wrong with his rant on that stage; he addressed 'the rage' but not 'the racism,' failed to even mention that hey, maybe referring to centuries of terror, rape, enslavement and abuse is a bigoted and wholly inappropriate response to some hecklers at a comedy club. When asked whether he would have done the same thing if the hecklers were white, he said he still would have been enraged, as if this is not about race but about self-control - and he refused to acknowledge his own racial prejudices, claiming "I'm not a racist," pleading for sympathy from folks who feel like they could get stuck in that sort of situation.
He felt unbalanced in his act that night and looked for the kind of response that gave him power over the hecklers, and in fear acted on some very deeply ingrained bigoted ideas. The idea that he's 'not a racist' is convenient - sure, nobody's a racist when they wake up on the right side of the bed, when things are going your way - the question is how you respond under pressure, when your real feelings come out, and he felt that was the only way he could respond? Racism. I don't think he is ultimately irredeemable, and he could use this experience to start a discussion about this issue. But last night on Letterman he wasn't just an awkard mess, he neglected to truly understand what his problem was - not just self-control, but a fundamental misunderstanding of race and American history and humanity.
When you get in an argument with someone of a different race and the first thing in your mind and out of your mouth is a reference to lynching and calling them the worst racial slur over and over and over qualifies you as a racist, I would say. It flowed way too easlily from him to argue otherwise.
Definitions of Racist on the Web:
* racial taunts, graffiti. * based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" * a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
I mean really, what the fuck does it take to make someone a racist?
that's what happens when you interrupt the white man
Come on. You people are really trying to debate this?
I personally don't give a fuck about Michael Richards. There are PLENTY of more important racists in power we should be concerned about. And don't misconstrue what I'm trying to say. I'm more disturbed by some of you trying to argue this.
I think of the Chappelle Show skit involving "what kind of evidence would you need to convict R. Kelly" and the level of proof was comically impossible.
I think a "true" racist would have to be someone, on video, saying, "I hate black people for no other reason that they're black" while burning a black person with a hot iron. Of course, the most powerful racists in society do their work with a pen, not a gun or billy club.
I'm saying - the n-word is pretty bad but the lynching joke was just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there. You can't come back from that.
When you get in an argument with someone of a different race and the first thing in your mind and out of your mouth is a reference to lynching and calling them the worst racial slur over and over and over qualifies you as a racist, I would say. It flowed way too easlily from him to argue otherwise.
Definitions of Racist on the Web:
* racial taunts, graffiti. * based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" * a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
I mean really, what the fuck does it take to make someone a racist?
that's what happens when you interrupt the white man
Come on. You people are really trying to debate this?
I personally don't give a fuck about Michael Richards. There are PLENTY of more important racists in power we should be concerned about. And don't misconstrue what I'm trying to say. I'm more disturbed by some of you trying to argue this.
day I think its pretty obvious why people want to sympathize with him; 1) they confuse him with his character, and his character on seinfeld was incredibly likeable, and 2) (a slightly smaller number, but) they don't neccessarily disagree with him, even if they think his response was 'out of control.'
I mean, I'm not gonna front like I wasn't hoping he would have at least realized why this was wrong. He didn't.
The dude is racist, straight up, but I'm also wary of attempts to use 'he's a racist' as a point of differentiating himself from 'us' (other white people) as if he's some fringe dude; if something useful can come out of this, don't you think its important to observe things like those statistics implying that 40% of people didn't see what he did as racist, that he's not some 'crazy' out there on the margins of white society. So while its important to damn him for what he did, i think its also important to recognize how much of america sees his RAGE as the aberration and not his RACISM
dude does have a short trigger....remember he was in Fridays? Remember the (in)famous Andy Kaufman sketch, he had some serious rage in his eyes and looked like he wanted to curb Kaufman.(I know this is an obscure reference to some really old performance, but perhaps some of y'all remember it...maybe there is a youtube of it...)
I thought it was later revealed that this whole incident was staged/worked out beforehand. Or maybe that's just Kaufman revisionism.
I'm also wary of attempts to use 'he's a racist' as a point of differentiating himself from 'us' (other white people) as if he's some fringe dude
Yeah, that's what I was implying by saying "don't misconstrue" my posts. I'm not using this to take some holier than thou stance.
All I'm trying to do is ask why, on not only this board but that other board ( ), both which deal with primarily black music, are people trying to explain away his actions? Like I said, I don't give a shit about the man, it's the peoples reactions that are most telling.
p.s. notice how it's mostly non-black people discussing this? think about that.
I mean really, what the fuck does it take to make someone a racist?
Dude, everyone is racist. It's to what degree and whether or not you can admit it to yourself.
But nothing needs to be proved about him being a racist. He already put his cards on the table and people will take what they want from it and make their own personal opinions. And besides, I'm not really interested in that. I'm more for looking into what everyday people take from this and in any way, shape or form can turn the ugliness from this and turn it into a positive. Tho, that ain't happening anytime soon I'm guessing.
I still dont understand why all this fuss when it was CLEAR as crystal that Richards and such are potentially racist. Seinfeld=no "minorities" in the cast. New York without colors is not New-York. So i never watch that show. It was discriminatory toward a certain audience, and maybe because it was jewish show after all, the set was quiet "too white" for me...anyway. Kramer had a show. Same schit...
My point : who is he anyway? Seems like he got a buzz back thanks to that incident. theres no such thing as bad publicity in Hollywood. Just publicity. All that for a talentless wannabe actor raised by the Grand Dragon principles...oh well. Louisiania is full of these people. Mississipi too. Shit, the whole World may be filled with lil Kramer. He's burned and that's it. Nobody ain't gonna do shit anyway. Maybe not giving him any jobs so he can rot in his own piss under some bridge, yea...but all this shit remove people from the real problems. The military draft...
Comments
Well, I already knew you was good peeps, so there you go.
Yeah, I agree w/ you. Maybe a "retroactive" Lenny Bruce but you could tell he tried to spin it once he knew how horribly wrong he'd gone.
Does anyone know, has Richards *ever* done stand-up or is this a new venture as some of the other comedians alluded to. I'm thinking he's always been: actor/improv comic/ensemble comic.
Ag crowd + nervous/rookie stand-up act who thinks he's the schitt + pent-up shit = complete meltdown.
my friend writes a comedy column for a newspaper, and this was his take...Dude shouldn't have been up there in the first place, in his opinion.
On this whole forgiveness thing... the only people that can forgive him are the people in the audience that he called Nigger. And why should they? Because he said he was sorry? boo fucking hoo.
Kramer is not important. He's worthless. People are upset like he's some cultural icon because he opened the door funny on a TV show. wow.
Perhaps it's best not to put Richards in the context of the comedic genius of Cosmo Kramer (a classic TV character) but in the context of one of his earlier roles. Maybe people give him credit for being a pretty smart dude with deep-seeded beliefs but in reality he is just an ignorant MF. WHATEVER, he still made a funny janitor in UHF
Awesome.....
Did I sound too white saying that???
The Cult Of Personality
Yes but in the good way, ala "not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good".
Exactly....and for a split second I thought he was doing some Kauffman/Buddy Love attack the audience routine.......but he wasn't
Has anyone seen this show "Last Comic Standing"......dude who won this past year was seriously disabled with something like Muscular Dystrophy which gave him the advantage as he could tell jokes that no "normal" person could tell and get away with without being called a bigot. Great stuff!!
Whats strange is, I believe comedy is one good way to do this. But it's sad that Richard's totally negative, ignorant and hurtful temporary loss of sanity will move us yet another step back, instead of forward.
I lost even a little more hope lastnight when a few on Letterman were laughing. Tho, I did gain a bit back when Seinfeld jumped in right away and told them to stop it and how it wasn't funny.
I don't get how you went from my comment to your comment.
Disconnection.
Why do you keep calling him Kramer, btw? Kramer is a TV character. Richards is the actor who played him.
And did you watch the video? Did you watch Richards' apology? It was not a "Lenny Bruce" skit.
Why are you being an apologist?
Dor,
I actually agree with what you're saying - I think it'd be valuable for people to censor themselves less and be more frank about their actual feelings. It's the whole "wolf vs. fox" comparison that Malcolm X used to describe the Republicans vs. Democrats with. Better to have ugliness out in the open vs. hidden behind a bullshit smile.
But really - I think we need to at least be open to the idea that what happened with Richards' doesn't qualify as "comedy" - in that moment, he crossed the line out of using racism for the sake of comedy and instead, was trying to use comedy for the sake of racism.
I'm not sure how lynching jokes, in the context he made them, is supposed to be "funny" but it seemed as if Richards was trying to go there.
Oh, no question.
What Richards was doing, was in no way comedy. It was just the venue where it took place. I see it more as a temporary loss of sanity mixed with what people do when they don't have anything better to say. They use the lowest form of ignorance and try to use it to their advantage. Which really only makes you sink to the garbage their spewing.
On a side note. One of my friends (Yeah yeah, I know I've plugged him on here a couple of times) does the whole comedy and race thing really well. It's more what I was thinking when I made the comment of how it can be used in a positive maner.
But people shouldn't totally hate on this thread. Out of the whole thing, there are small bits of worthy debate and/or discussion.
Your Ike/Richards analogy was faulty to begin with.
I was kinda rooting for the dude when he first appeared on Letterman. Respect to Seinfeld telling the audience to stop laughing.
But here's where my sympathy ends: Richards' apology wasn't good. He's torn up; good, he should be. He seemed genuinely disturbed. But as much as he tried to apologize, he seemed to neglect the fundamental nature of what was wrong with his rant on that stage; he addressed 'the rage' but not 'the racism,' failed to even mention that hey, maybe referring to centuries of terror, rape, enslavement and abuse is a bigoted and wholly inappropriate response to some hecklers at a comedy club. When asked whether he would have done the same thing if the hecklers were white, he said he still would have been enraged, as if this is not about race but about self-control - and he refused to acknowledge his own racial prejudices, claiming "I'm not a racist," pleading for sympathy from folks who feel like they could get stuck in that sort of situation.
He felt unbalanced in his act that night and looked for the kind of response that gave him power over the hecklers, and in fear acted on some very deeply ingrained bigoted ideas. The idea that he's 'not a racist' is convenient - sure, nobody's a racist when they wake up on the right side of the bed, when things are going your way - the question is how you respond under pressure, when your real feelings come out, and he felt that was the only way he could respond? Racism. I don't think he is ultimately irredeemable, and he could use this experience to start a discussion about this issue. But last night on Letterman he wasn't just an awkard mess, he neglected to truly understand what his problem was - not just self-control, but a fundamental misunderstanding of race and American history and humanity.
In conclusion,
It flowed way too easlily from him to argue otherwise.
Definitions of Racist on the Web:
* racial taunts, graffiti.
* based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks"
* a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others
I mean really, what the fuck does it take to make someone a racist?
Come on. You people are really trying to debate this?
I personally don't give a fuck about Michael Richards. There are PLENTY of more important racists in power we should be concerned about.
And don't misconstrue what I'm trying to say.
I'm more disturbed by some of you trying to argue this.
I think a "true" racist would have to be someone, on video, saying, "I hate black people for no other reason that they're black" while burning a black person with a hot iron. Of course, the most powerful racists in society do their work with a pen, not a gun or billy club.
I'm saying - the n-word is pretty bad but the lynching joke was just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there. You can't come back from that.
I mean, I'm not gonna front like I wasn't hoping he would have at least realized why this was wrong. He didn't.
The dude is racist, straight up, but I'm also wary of attempts to use 'he's a racist' as a point of differentiating himself from 'us' (other white people) as if he's some fringe dude; if something useful can come out of this, don't you think its important to observe things like those statistics implying that 40% of people didn't see what he did as racist, that he's not some 'crazy' out there on the margins of white society. So while its important to damn him for what he did, i think its also important to recognize how much of america sees his RAGE as the aberration and not his RACISM
really quit impressive considering:
a. Dude is washed up
b. He is now a CONFIRMED racist devil
case closed.
so what.
:5pager: x 2.5
Shouldn't we all be digging for records or something?
I thought it was later revealed that this whole incident was staged/worked out beforehand. Or maybe that's just Kaufman revisionism.
Yeah, that's what I was implying by saying "don't misconstrue" my posts.
I'm not using this to take some holier than thou stance.
All I'm trying to do is ask why, on not only this board but that other board (
p.s. notice how it's mostly non-black people discussing this? think about that.
Dude, everyone is racist. It's to what degree and whether or not you can admit it to yourself.
But nothing needs to be proved about him being a racist. He already put his cards on the table and people will take what they want from it and make their own personal opinions. And besides, I'm not really interested in that. I'm more for looking into what everyday people take from this and in any way, shape or form can turn the ugliness from this and turn it into a positive. Tho, that ain't happening anytime soon I'm guessing.
My point : who is he anyway? Seems like he got a buzz back thanks to that incident. theres no such thing as bad publicity in Hollywood. Just publicity. All that for a talentless wannabe actor raised by the Grand Dragon principles...oh well. Louisiania is full of these people. Mississipi too. Shit, the whole World may be filled with lil Kramer. He's burned and that's it. Nobody ain't gonna do shit anyway. Maybe not giving him any jobs so he can rot in his own piss under some bridge, yea...but all this shit remove people from the real problems. The military draft...