Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Phil, I don't think anyone here would have trouble hearing the differences between "Bassline" and "Marley Scratch".
The problem is that the term that you use to characterize that difference is a) not very descriptive, and b) value-laden.
faux, everything that I can tell you is all in my quote up above. I am sure it is not a good enough description for you and certainly many other people who are reading this. In actuality, I have used way too many words in trying to properly describe what I mean by "that real shit". What I am talking about is something that is not that tangible. It is a FEELING. Primo would know what I'm talking about, because we share this feeling. I'm pretty sure that Brian Coleman, who wrote the book "Rakim Told Me" also shares this feeling. DJ Ivory, Biz Markie, Large Professor, Paul Nice... I don't think I would have to give a detailed description of this to any of these people, they would know instantly what I'm talking about, just like it seems that Big Stacks and 33thirdcom understood me.
When you insist on referring to records like "Marley Scratch" as "real," the implication is that everything else is fake, and what's more, somehow inferior... and a lot of us reject that.
That is very understandable, and I wish that I could comfort all of you and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. But we're dealing with the truth here today, and there is not enough truth being told when it comes to hip hop music lately. As I have explained too many times already (hopefully someday this will sink in), when I talk about "that real shit" I am talking about raw, rugged sounding hip hop music. I am calling it "that real shit" because that is what those of us who came up on that music and lived that lifestyle would call it. Everything else is not necessarily fake and inferior- some is just a different style- but to us, most of everything else IS fake and / or inferior. We want "that real shit", mane!
I feel that people who do not share this feeling should not even give a damn about what somebody else considers real or not- you like what you like, and that's that. I am not trying to deny any of you M.C. Hammer fans your right to listen to "2 Legit To Quit" all day everyday while you lounge in your huge colorful Hammer pants eating popcorn chicken. Or any of you Webbie, Mike Jones, Slim Thug or Dipset fans, either. All of that stuff is just as real as far as what it is- it's just not that real hip hop shit! There is a difference... I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that statement.
Also, you keep invoking "back in the day," but I don't think it makes any kind of sense to judge all hip-hop by a static definition rooted in a certain historical moment. For example, if we were to judge the earliest rap records by the standard that was applied to hip-hop prior to 1979, then we'd have to conclude that classics like "That's the Joint" are also not "real," since the phenomenon of MCs rhyming over backing tracks provided by live bands bears little resemblance to what hip-hop had been prior to that point.
"That's The Joint" is real in the sense that a real m.c. crew is rhyming on it, as opposed to the Sugarhill Gang, who were a total fraud. But "That's The Joint" is NOT representative of what real hip hop was about in 1980, or whatever year it came out in. Very few of those early hip hop records give an accurate snapshot of what real hip hop was like in that era. The Mike And Dave records are the real deal, the Live Convention records, "Flash It To The Beat" and a few others. But to truly understand where hip hop comes from, you have to listen to the live tapes from that time period, not most of the records. This is something that unfortunately is understood by very few people today. Those rappers did not like most of the records they were making back then with the disco bands and all that. The "real shit" back then was cutting up breaks, not guitar players and horn sections. Things evolved and changed even just from that time up until the Primo beat choppin' era, but we're still talking about a certain rawness in the way that the music is presented, whether on turntables or put through a sampler, that makes "that real shit" what it is. I'd like to make it clearer to everyone, but honestly- if you ain't diggin' it by now then you probably won't dig it no matter what I say. And really, you shouldn't care. Just keep enjoying Chamillionaire, Young Jeezy and whatever else you're into- nobody can be blamed for liking what they like. Just don't blame me either for reppin' "that real shit"!
Phil, just so you know, I've understood what you're saying from your first post (actually, from before that, because we've had this discussion a few times). It's just fun to argue with you.
WHERES MY G*U*N* records mang!!! Let me give these kids an alternative to the Dipset and Jeezy shit I stock
(btw, if you want to throw in an On Tempo Jack OG, just cause we're good like that, I ain't mad.)
Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Phil, I don't think anyone here would have trouble hearing the differences between "Bassline" and "Marley Scratch".
The problem is that the term that you use to characterize that difference is a) not very descriptive, and b) value-laden.
faux, everything that I can tell you is all in my quote up above. I am sure it is not a good enough description for you and certainly many other people who are reading this. In actuality, I have used way too many words in trying to properly describe what I mean by "that real shit". What I am talking about is something that is not that tangible. It is a FEELING. Primo would know what I'm talking about, because we share this feeling. I'm pretty sure that Brian Coleman, who wrote the book "Rakim Told Me" also shares this feeling. DJ Ivory, Biz Markie, Large Professor, Paul Nice... I don't think I would have to give a detailed description of this to any of these people, they would know instantly what I'm talking about, just like it seems that Big Stacks and 33thirdcom understood me.
When you insist on referring to records like "Marley Scratch" as "real," the implication is that everything else is fake, and what's more, somehow inferior... and a lot of us reject that.
That is very understandable, and I wish that I could comfort all of you and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. But we're dealing with the truth here today, and there is not enough truth being told when it comes to hip hop music lately. As I have explained too many times already (hopefully someday this will sink in), when I talk about "that real shit" I am talking about raw, rugged sounding hip hop music. I am calling it "that real shit" because that is what those of us who came up on that music and lived that lifestyle would call it. Everything else is not necessarily fake and inferior- some is just a different style- but to us, most of everything else IS fake and / or inferior. We want "that real shit", mane!
I feel that people who do not share this feeling should not even give a damn about what somebody else considers real or not- you like what you like, and that's that. I am not trying to deny any of you M.C. Hammer fans your right to listen to "2 Legit To Quit" all day everyday while you lounge in your huge colorful Hammer pants eating popcorn chicken. Or any of you Webbie, Mike Jones, Slim Thug or Dipset fans, either. All of that stuff is just as real as far as what it is- it's just not that real hip hop shit! There is a difference... I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that statement.
Also, you keep invoking "back in the day," but I don't think it makes any kind of sense to judge all hip-hop by a static definition rooted in a certain historical moment. For example, if we were to judge the earliest rap records by the standard that was applied to hip-hop prior to 1979, then we'd have to conclude that classics like "That's the Joint" are also not "real," since the phenomenon of MCs rhyming over backing tracks provided by live bands bears little resemblance to what hip-hop had been prior to that point.
"That's The Joint" is real in the sense that a real m.c. crew is rhyming on it, as opposed to the Sugarhill Gang, who were a total fraud. But "That's The Joint" is NOT representative of what real hip hop was about in 1980, or whatever year it came out in. Very few of those early hip hop records give an accurate snapshot of what real hip hop was like in that era. The Mike And Dave records are the real deal, the Live Convention records, "Flash It To The Beat" and a few others. But to truly understand where hip hop comes from, you have to listen to the live tapes from that time period, not most of the records. This is something that unfortunately is understood by very few people today. Those rappers did not like most of the records they were making back then with the disco bands and all that. The "real shit" back then was cutting up breaks, not guitar players and horn sections. Things evolved and changed even just from that time up until the Primo beat choppin' era, but we're still talking about a certain rawness in the way that the music is presented, whether on turntables or put through a sampler, that makes "that real shit" what it is. I'd like to make it clearer to everyone, but honestly- if you ain't diggin' it by now then you probably won't dig it no matter what I say. And really, you shouldn't care. Just keep enjoying Chamillionaire, Young Jeezy and whatever else you're into- nobody can be blamed for liking what they like. Just don't blame me either for reppin' "that real shit"!
Hi, Phill,
So, do you think Primo is repping that real shit today? Frankly, I don't think that he has repped anything "real" in a while. When I think of raw, rugged sounding hip hop music "N Together Now" doesn't come to mind. If anything, his music with Guru & others from the last decade sounds like a echo of the raw shit that he once made.
Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Phil, I don't think anyone here would have trouble hearing the differences between "Bassline" and "Marley Scratch".
The problem is that the term that you use to characterize that difference is a) not very descriptive, and b) value-laden.
faux, everything that I can tell you is all in my quote up above. I am sure it is not a good enough description for you and certainly many other people who are reading this. In actuality, I have used way too many words in trying to properly describe what I mean by "that real shit". What I am talking about is something that is not that tangible. It is a FEELING. Primo would know what I'm talking about, because we share this feeling. I'm pretty sure that Brian Coleman, who wrote the book "Rakim Told Me" also shares this feeling. DJ Ivory, Biz Markie, Large Professor, Paul Nice... I don't think I would have to give a detailed description of this to any of these people, they would know instantly what I'm talking about, just like it seems that Big Stacks and 33thirdcom understood me.
When you insist on referring to records like "Marley Scratch" as "real," the implication is that everything else is fake, and what's more, somehow inferior... and a lot of us reject that.
That is very understandable, and I wish that I could comfort all of you and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. But we're dealing with the truth here today, and there is not enough truth being told when it comes to hip hop music lately. As I have explained too many times already (hopefully someday this will sink in), when I talk about "that real shit" I am talking about raw, rugged sounding hip hop music. I am calling it "that real shit" because that is what those of us who came up on that music and lived that lifestyle would call it. Everything else is not necessarily fake and inferior- some is just a different style- but to us, most of everything else IS fake and / or inferior. We want "that real shit", mane!
I feel that people who do not share this feeling should not even give a damn about what somebody else considers real or not- you like what you like, and that's that. I am not trying to deny any of you M.C. Hammer fans your right to listen to "2 Legit To Quit" all day everyday while you lounge in your huge colorful Hammer pants eating popcorn chicken. Or any of you Webbie, Mike Jones, Slim Thug or Dipset fans, either. All of that stuff is just as real as far as what it is- it's just not that real hip hop shit! There is a difference... I don't know why anybody would have a problem with that statement.
Also, you keep invoking "back in the day," but I don't think it makes any kind of sense to judge all hip-hop by a static definition rooted in a certain historical moment. For example, if we were to judge the earliest rap records by the standard that was applied to hip-hop prior to 1979, then we'd have to conclude that classics like "That's the Joint" are also not "real," since the phenomenon of MCs rhyming over backing tracks provided by live bands bears little resemblance to what hip-hop had been prior to that point.
"That's The Joint" is real in the sense that a real m.c. crew is rhyming on it, as opposed to the Sugarhill Gang, who were a total fraud. But "That's The Joint" is NOT representative of what real hip hop was about in 1980, or whatever year it came out in. Very few of those early hip hop records give an accurate snapshot of what real hip hop was like in that era. The Mike And Dave records are the real deal, the Live Convention records, "Flash It To The Beat" and a few others. But to truly understand where hip hop comes from, you have to listen to the live tapes from that time period, not most of the records. This is something that unfortunately is understood by very few people today. Those rappers did not like most of the records they were making back then with the disco bands and all that. The "real shit" back then was cutting up breaks, not guitar players and horn sections. Things evolved and changed even just from that time up until the Primo beat choppin' era, but we're still talking about a certain rawness in the way that the music is presented, whether on turntables or put through a sampler, that makes "that real shit" what it is. I'd like to make it clearer to everyone, but honestly- if you ain't diggin' it by now then you probably won't dig it no matter what I say. And really, you shouldn't care. Just keep enjoying Chamillionaire, Young Jeezy and whatever else you're into- nobody can be blamed for liking what they like. Just don't blame me either for reppin' "that real shit"!
Phil, you're not letting those of us on the other side of the argument in on anything that isn't also apparent to us--we just don't accept your characterization of it. I think most of us were--and still are--fans of the type of records that you refer to us "the real shit," but don't agree with you that "real" hip-hop is limited to that particular sound.
You're really just reiterating the point I was making when you talk about "That's the Joint." I've got "Flash It to the Beat" and "Live Convention," and I understand that those records are more accurate representations of what rap was before it was laid down on record. What I take issue with is the idea that that somehow makes "That's the Joint" a less "real" record.
So, do you think Primo is repping that real shit today? Frankly, I don't think that he has repped anything "real" in a while. When I think of raw, rugged sounding hip hop music "N Together Now" doesn't come to mind. If anything, his music with Guru & others from the last decade sounds like a echo of the raw shit that he once made.
h
To be honest, he is putting out more stuff that I'm not feeling lately than he did in the 90's. But I didn't like every single beat he put out back then, either. Primo is not a beat making robot, he's gonna have his hits and his misses just like anybody ("Ownerz was definitely a miss IMO). I still like the majority of what he's doing, though. In the last 5 years I feel that he has done some AMAZING beats.
Now, "N Together Now" was admittedly not a great Primo beat, but it was a pretty damn hot Limp Bizkit beat!
Man, it's all basically been said.........but I like Primo a lot and I think he has done a lot with his style, but it's still remained within his "style" so he's progressed but in a way.
If you listen close he's really got the beats and samples tight. He's always been the chop master, but now he's at the point where his chops are just crazy. You listen to the stuff he sampled and what he did with it and it's usually not even close to the original. This really started to show with the Group Home stuff and just got better from their. The Non Pixion stuff was ILL. Plus, a lot of people just find a loop and put a beat to it, but he already has an idea in his head of what the song will be and then he searches out the sounds that will make his song. So he's very much like Axelrod and other composers, but he's useing samples instead of musicians.
No doubt his stuff doesn't have the impact it once did, but so what......does someone really have to blow minds every year of their life.....let's see what the Neptunes are doing in 20 years.
And as for that real shit.....I agree with Phil.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
I didn't read the whole thread, but.....
He's scared to really sample. PERIOD.
He hasn't rocked a break or full blown two - four bar sample in a while..
Y'all violated straight up and down and now he's scared to REALLY sample.
AND IT'S NOT THE TIMES. If mass appeal or whatever came out now it would be good. Maybe not a hit, but good.
If his beats he makes now came out back then, it would be a wack primo beat.
He's banging out beats using one kick, one snare, and a piano note and trying to make full beats.
Sampling is an expensive business nowadays. If you're cranking out mixtapes full of sample beats like Dipset, then you can go buckwild jacking everyone and anyone and not give a fuck about ever clearing it. Otherwise, be ready to give up your publishing. Bear in mind that Gang Starr never sold a whole lot of records, either. If I'm right, Primo made most of his cash off remixes and outside production work, for which he'd have got a fee and possibly points. If you're looking for an example of Primo changing up his style, look at how he's moved from the loops of "Daily Operation" to the slice-and-dice style of much of his recent (last six or seven years) work, and consider whether that development was driven as much by economics as it was by any artistic impulse. I don't think he's scared to sample so much as he can't really afford to - man's gotta eat.
As for a dope Primo beat from the last few years, I'll go with "A Part Of My Life" by Bumpy Knuckles. I heard an AZ tune a while back that was obviously a Primo beat and had the feel of the best of his recent shit, but I dunno if that's the same joint O-Dub and Soulman were discussing, as I don't remember the title. It might have been a single, though, because I've seen a video for it. And volumen's just reminded me that Non-Phixion's "Rock Stars", where he bounced that Barkays sample all over the set, was pretty fucking tight as well.
Phil, you're not letting those of us on the other side of the argument in on anything that isn't also apparent to us--we just don't accept your characterization of it. I think most of us were--and still are--fans of the type of records that you refer to us "the real shit," but don't agree with you that "real" hip-hop is limited to that particular sound.
Well, you don't have to accept my characterization of it. I have no control over what anyone accepts or chooses not to accept. I can only tell you what it is from my perspective, and although I am definitely not the king of hip hop or anything, I think my history is enough for my point of view to deserve a certain amount of respect and consideration. Somebody can just wake up one day and say, "oh, Gwen Stefani's 'Hollaback Girl' is real hip hop." Now, of course you're gonna think that's ridiculous just as much as I do. But that person who's saying it may be serious as a heart attack. And other people may say it, too. And more people. And still more people. Until it's gets to the point that the general consensus is that Gwen Stefani's "Hollaback Girl" actually IS real hip hop! Maybe that is a ludicrous example, but I'm using that so that maybe you can have some understanding of the outrage a dude like me feels when something that is clearly NOT "real hip hop" is presented as such. Much of the disagreement we are having is probably just semantics- our definitions of hip hop music is not the same, I guess. I really don't understand what it is you are not getting about my viewpoint, faux. Do you think that I should feel that something like the Young Jeezy album is just as real hip hop as the Ultramagnetic "Critical Beatdown" album? It's not. This does not mean that it is not necessarily a good album for what it is, it is just not a real hip hop album. It does not matter what year it was made in. "Supreme Clientele" was a real hip hop album. That last De La Soul album was a real hip hop album. There are other recent ones, I am just drawing a blank right now. We are talking about a particular kind of sound and feeling. Does it honestly bother you that somebody says that the Young Jeezy album is not real hip hop, and if so, why? It's the music you like, you think it's good music... cool! It doesn't HAVE to be real hip hop, does it?
You're really just reiterating the point I was making when you talk about "That's the Joint." I've got "Flash It to the Beat" and "Live Convention," and I understand that those records are more accurate representations of what rap was before it was laid down on record. What I take issue with is the idea that that somehow makes "That's the Joint" a less "real" record.
"Flash It To The Beat" and "Live Convention" are not just more accurate representations of what rap was before it was laid down on record. They are more accurate of what it was during the early years when rap was first being put on record. One good example of this would be the aforementioned "Flash It To The Beat" in comparison to the Sugarhill studio version, "Flash To The Beat". There really is no comparison- the Bozo Meko joint is the real shit, the Sugarhill version is close to being doo doo, and everybody (or at least those "real headz") knew this at the time that these records came out. Another example would be the Crash Crew's "High Powered Rap" vs. Flash's "Freedom". The Crash's version had a loop of "Get Up And Dance" that gave the record the same feeling as if you heard them rocking this in the parks. Flash's version featured the Sugarhill band replaying the same song. Flash's record was bigger because they had the Sugarhill muscle behind them, but in the streets the Crash Crew record was the winner, hands down. Do not misunderstand my point, I am not trying to discount every old school rap record that had a band playing on it- that would be crazy. A lot of those bands got down, man! Stuff like Fantasy 3 "It's Your Rock", Busy Bee "Makin' Cash Money", Treacherous Three "Feel The Heartbeat".... seriously dope, classic stuff. But the vast majority of those records did not accurately reflect what was happening at clubs like The T-Connection, Harlem World, the PAL centers, the parks, etc. Those old tapes tell the REAL story, not the records.
You do know, faux, that Def Jam records (the home of Young Jeezy, just so you know what I'm talking about ) was founded basically because Rick Rubin didn't feel that Kool Moe Dee's records really showed how nice he was compared to what he saw live and what he heard on tapes, right? That was the whole basis of Def Jam existing, because Rick knew that those old school records were for the most part not really the realest shit that they could be. Rick couldn't get Moe Dee because he was locked down by Sugarhill, so he got Special K's brother T-La Rock. They made "It's Yours", and that was beginning of Def Jam (that rock record that allegedly preceded it does not count). From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
One good example of this would be the aforementioned "Flash It To The Beat" in comparison to the Sugarhill studio version, "Flash To The Beat". There really is no comparison- the Bozo Meko joint is the real shit, the Sugarhill version is close to being doo doo, and everybody (or at least those "real headz") knew this at the time that these records came out. Another example would be the Crash Crew's "High Powered Rap" vs. Flash's "Freedom". The Crash's version had a loop of "Get Up And Dance" that gave the record the same feeling as if you heard them rocking this in the parks. Flash's version featured the Sugarhill band replaying the same song. Flash's record was bigger because they had the Sugarhill muscle behind them, but in the streets the Crash Crew record was the winner, hands down.
See, this is interesting to me because, despite living in the North-West of England at the time, I bought both those Flash records when they came out because I was actively seeking out any kind of rap music at that point. I would buy anything that even looked like a rap record. At the time, "Freedom" was the most exciting thing I'd heard since the fucking Sex Pistols and, with "Flash To The Beat" I was like, OK, this is a little bit different, but it's still good. Obviously, there's no way I would have viewed those records from the same perspective as you, but it's an interesting angle to consider when you say that you can't understand how someone might consider "Hollaback Girl" to be a hip-hop record, real or otherwise. I mean, I didn't have any other points of reference beyond "Rapper's Delight" and "The Breaks" when I first heard "Freedom", but I knew right away that it was a better record than either of them.
From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?
From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?
So just because they are using an 808 you are saying that they are the same thing??? That's all it takes, just program a beat on an 808? You don't really believe that, dog. You KNOW better.
From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?
So just because they are using an 808 you are saying that they are the same thing??? That's all it takes, just program a beat on an 808? You don't really believe that, dog. You KNOW better.
Where do you think they got the idea to rock the 808 from? THAT fucking record man. That was a critical record in terms of production on the west coast and in the south.
I recall reading an interview with jazzy jay, where he talked about using that 808 bass drum for the first time on that song... perhaps it was used before, don't know for sure... but that is the foundation of the music that's been coming out of the rest of the country for 20 years now. It's not just a coincidence. It's a direct outgrowth of that record.... the real schitt
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Now I've gotta go home and stop arguing about hip-hop!
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Now I've gotta go home and stop arguing about hip-hop!
Phill,
I wanna see if I get this: when you're talkin about real hip hop & young jeezy, you're not comparing production techniques or stuff like 808 breaks, are you? T La Rock & Jeezy may not be far apart, in relation to the way the music is made - Is what you're talking about is a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, or a kind of atmosphere created by the music?
From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?
So just because they are using an 808 you are saying that they are the same thing??? That's all it takes, just program a beat on an 808? You don't really believe that, dog. You KNOW better.
Where do you think they got the idea to rock the 808 from? THAT fucking record man. That was a critical record in terms of production on the west coast and in the south.
I recall reading an interview with jazzy jay, where he talked about using that 808 bass drum for the first time on that song... perhaps it was used before, don't know for sure... but that is the foundation of the music that's been coming out of the rest of the country for 20 years now. It's not just a coincidence. It's a direct outgrowth of that record.... the real schitt
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Yep, I did. I actually have that record- didn't even realize that I had it since back when it first came out. It is not a good record, but that break is definitely nice. Reminds me of a lot of old drumbreak records where the whole song is bad and then a dope break just comes in out of nowhere for a few seconds, then it's right back to the wackness. I know all about the influence of "It's Yours" and other records like the Original Concept joint on Southern rap. I honestly have never heard a southern rap song that sounds like "It's Yours", but I don't doubt that some may exist (beat-wise, at least). If you or anybody else has MP3s I'd like to hear some of this stuff.
I think you and faux are just focusing on what you want to focus on, though. "Don't say that the music that I love from my area is not that real shit! It IS that real shit!" If you understand the differences in musical styles that I have illustrated then you should understand what I'm talking about. Is your favorite hip-house record also real hip hop? Is your favorite new jack swing record "that real shit"? They are all off-shoots of traditional hip hop, just like southern rap, west coast g-rap, booty bass, etc. It doesn't matter, they are something different from what to me is "that real hip hop shit". You guys have to stop feeling like your music is being disrespected when I say this- I respect ALL of that stuff for what it is. Does not mean that I have to love it like I love raw hip hop music, just like you do not have to love Primo's recent beats as much as you love Dipset. Different strokes for different folks.
No, I don't feel like you're disrespecting the music at all. I feel like you don't understand it. I understand that when you refer to "real hip-hop" you are referring to a raw feeling and type of sound, right? So I don't understand how you would characterize a record like "6 In The Morning" or "Boys In The Hood" as not being raw, gritty, stripped down, etc. I mean, those records are just an SP stab and an 808. I play those records right next to T La Rock, LL Cool J, etc. I guess all I'm saying to you is that your definition of raw is local to NY - a song with exactly the same credentials, but not from the same place, doesn't seem to fit the bill.
Anyway, it's far past the hour at which I am allowed to argue about hip-hop! I will see you idoits and folls in the am
Phill please to send all that " real hip hop shit" that you have amassed over the years to me i think i can find some use for it,i'm sure of it.You know we starving outhere in the 3rd world brethren. And a small question what would you classify the afrika bambaataa songs "Looking for a perfect beat" etc as? please feel free to crush my world some more.
I wanna see if I get this: when you're talkin about real hip hop & young jeezy, you're not comparing production techniques or stuff like 808 breaks, are you? T La Rock & Jeezy may not be far apart, in relation to the way the music is made - Is what you're talking about is a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, or a kind of atmosphere created by the music?
Peace
h
I have always said that much of today's hip hop reminds me of the mid 80's drum machine era of rap. That was not really a great time period in old school history IMO. Of course there were some good records made during that time, but you have to factor in more than just the drum sounds being used. You know the saying, "it's not what you have, it's what you do with it". So yes, HAZ, I would say that it's about a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, and a kind of atmosphere created by the music. I just don't know if I can explain it any further than I already have. I'm tired, I need to go to bed (whew... all day arguing about this shit when I shoulda been busy making moves in the real world! Please don't bait me into sinking deeper into this abyss tomorrow, dudes... I need to get some work done.)
Damn. I want to read this whole thread but it would take half if not all of the night. You have to be checking on this thread every minute to check out the new shit posted.
Comments
-e
What are you--some kind of poptart?
"That Macy Gray song is every bit as soulful as the 70s classics that we all cherish"
He's scared to really sample. PERIOD.
He hasn't rocked a break or full blown two - four bar sample in a while..
Y'all violated straight up and down
AND IT'S NOT THE TIMES. If mass appeal or whatever came out now it would be good. Maybe not a hit, but good.
If his beats he makes now came out back then, it would be a wack primo beat.
He's banging out beats using one kick, one snare, and a piano note and trying to make full beats.
faux, everything that I can tell you is all in my quote up above. I am sure it is not a good enough description for you and certainly many other people who are reading this. In actuality, I have used way too many words in trying to properly describe what I mean by "that real shit". What I am talking about is something that is not that tangible. It is a FEELING. Primo would know what I'm talking about, because we share this feeling. I'm pretty sure that Brian Coleman, who wrote the book "Rakim Told Me" also shares this feeling. DJ Ivory, Biz Markie, Large Professor, Paul Nice... I don't think I would have to give a detailed description of this to any of these people, they would know instantly what I'm talking about, just like it seems that Big Stacks and 33thirdcom understood me.
That is very understandable, and I wish that I could comfort all of you and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. But we're dealing with the truth here today, and there is not enough truth being told when it comes to hip hop music lately.
As I have explained too many times already (hopefully someday this will sink in), when I talk about "that real shit" I am talking about raw, rugged sounding hip hop music. I am calling it "that real shit" because that is what those of us who came up on that music and lived that lifestyle would call it. Everything else is not necessarily fake and inferior- some is just a different style- but to us, most of everything else IS fake and / or inferior. We want "that real shit", mane!
I feel that people who do not share this feeling should not even give a damn about what somebody else considers real or not- you like what you like, and that's that. I am not trying to deny any of you M.C. Hammer fans your right to listen to "2 Legit To Quit" all day everyday while you lounge in your huge colorful Hammer pants eating popcorn chicken.
"That's The Joint" is real in the sense that a real m.c. crew is rhyming on it, as opposed to the Sugarhill Gang, who were a total fraud. But "That's The Joint" is NOT representative of what real hip hop was about in 1980, or whatever year it came out in. Very few of those early hip hop records give an accurate snapshot of what real hip hop was like in that era. The Mike And Dave records are the real deal, the Live Convention records, "Flash It To The Beat" and a few others. But to truly understand where hip hop comes from, you have to listen to the live tapes from that time period, not most of the records. This is something that unfortunately is understood by very few people today. Those rappers did not like most of the records they were making back then with the disco bands and all that. The "real shit" back then was cutting up breaks, not guitar players and horn sections. Things evolved and changed even just from that time up until the Primo beat choppin' era, but we're still talking about a certain rawness in the way that the music is presented, whether on turntables or put through a sampler, that makes "that real shit" what it is.
I'd like to make it clearer to everyone, but honestly- if you ain't diggin' it by now then you probably won't dig it no matter what I say. And really, you shouldn't care. Just keep enjoying Chamillionaire, Young Jeezy and whatever else you're into- nobody can be blamed for liking what they like. Just don't blame me either for reppin' "that real shit"!
WHERES MY G*U*N* records mang!!! Let me give these kids an alternative to the Dipset and Jeezy shit I stock
(btw, if you want to throw in an On Tempo Jack OG, just cause we're good like that, I ain't mad.)
Hi, Phill,
So, do you think Primo is repping that real shit today? Frankly, I don't think that he has repped anything "real" in a while. When I think of raw, rugged sounding hip hop music "N Together Now" doesn't come to mind. If anything, his music with Guru & others from the last decade sounds like a echo of the raw shit that he once made.
h
That's straight from Primo's mouth..
I'm not mad. Hope it finally blows him up.
Phil, you're not letting those of us on the other side of the argument in on anything that isn't also apparent to us--we just don't accept your characterization of it. I think most of us were--and still are--fans of the type of records that you refer to us "the real shit," but don't agree with you that "real" hip-hop is limited to that particular sound.
You're really just reiterating the point I was making when you talk about "That's the Joint." I've got "Flash It to the Beat" and "Live Convention," and I understand that those records are more accurate representations of what rap was before it was laid down on record. What I take issue with is the idea that that somehow makes "That's the Joint" a less "real" record.
To be honest, he is putting out more stuff that I'm not feeling lately than he did in the 90's. But I didn't like every single beat he put out back then, either. Primo is not a beat making robot, he's gonna have his hits and his misses just like anybody ("Ownerz was definitely a miss IMO). I still like the majority of what he's doing, though. In the last 5 years I feel that he has done some AMAZING beats.
Now, "N Together Now" was admittedly not a great Primo beat, but it was a pretty damn hot Limp Bizkit beat!
If you listen close he's really got the beats and samples tight. He's always been the chop master, but now he's at the point where his chops are just crazy. You listen to the stuff he sampled and what he did with it and it's usually not even close to the original. This really started to show with the Group Home stuff and just got better from their. The Non Pixion stuff was ILL. Plus, a lot of people just find a loop and put a beat to it, but he already has an idea in his head of what the song will be and then he searches out the sounds that will make his song. So he's very much like Axelrod and other composers, but he's useing samples instead of musicians.
No doubt his stuff doesn't have the impact it once did, but so what......does someone really have to blow minds every year of their life.....let's see what the Neptunes are doing in 20 years.
And as for that real shit.....I agree with Phil.
Sampling is an expensive business nowadays. If you're cranking out mixtapes full of sample beats like Dipset, then you can go buckwild jacking everyone and anyone and not give a fuck about ever clearing it. Otherwise, be ready to give up your publishing. Bear in mind that Gang Starr never sold a whole lot of records, either. If I'm right, Primo made most of his cash off remixes and outside production work, for which he'd have got a fee and possibly points. If you're looking for an example of Primo changing up his style, look at how he's moved from the loops of "Daily Operation" to the slice-and-dice style of much of his recent (last six or seven years) work, and consider whether that development was driven as much by economics as it was by any artistic impulse. I don't think he's scared to sample so much as he can't really afford to - man's gotta eat.
As for a dope Primo beat from the last few years, I'll go with "A Part Of My Life" by Bumpy Knuckles. I heard an AZ tune a while back that was obviously a Primo beat and had the feel of the best of his recent shit, but I dunno if that's the same joint O-Dub and Soulman were discussing, as I don't remember the title. It might have been a single, though, because I've seen a video for it. And volumen's just reminded me that Non-Phixion's "Rock Stars", where he bounced that Barkays sample all over the set, was pretty fucking tight as well.
ahh.. you said it better then me. That's what I meant. THAT'S EXACTLY IT. I don't think he CAN'T make a good beat anymore. I think he CAN'T AFFORD to.
Well, you don't have to accept my characterization of it. I have no control over what anyone accepts or chooses not to accept. I can only tell you what it is from my perspective, and although I am definitely not the king of hip hop or anything, I think my history is enough for my point of view to deserve a certain amount of respect and consideration.
Somebody can just wake up one day and say, "oh, Gwen Stefani's 'Hollaback Girl' is real hip hop." Now, of course you're gonna think that's ridiculous just as much as I do. But that person who's saying it may be serious as a heart attack. And other people may say it, too. And more people. And still more people. Until it's gets to the point that the general consensus is that Gwen Stefani's "Hollaback Girl" actually IS real hip hop! Maybe that is a ludicrous example, but I'm using that so that maybe you can have some understanding of the outrage a dude like me feels when something that is clearly NOT "real hip hop" is presented as such.
Much of the disagreement we are having is probably just semantics- our definitions of hip hop music is not the same, I guess. I really don't understand what it is you are not getting about my viewpoint, faux. Do you think that I should feel that something like the Young Jeezy album is just as real hip hop as the Ultramagnetic "Critical Beatdown" album? It's not. This does not mean that it is not necessarily a good album for what it is, it is just not a real hip hop album. It does not matter what year it was made in. "Supreme Clientele" was a real hip hop album. That last De La Soul album was a real hip hop album. There are other recent ones, I am just drawing a blank right now. We are talking about a particular kind of sound and feeling. Does it honestly bother you that somebody says that the Young Jeezy album is not real hip hop, and if so, why? It's the music you like, you think it's good music... cool! It doesn't HAVE to be real hip hop, does it?
"Flash It To The Beat" and "Live Convention" are not just more accurate representations of what rap was before it was laid down on record. They are more accurate of what it was during the early years when rap was first being put on record. One good example of this would be the aforementioned "Flash It To The Beat" in comparison to the Sugarhill studio version, "Flash To The Beat". There really is no comparison- the Bozo Meko joint is the real shit, the Sugarhill version is close to being doo doo, and everybody (or at least those "real headz") knew this at the time that these records came out. Another example would be the Crash Crew's "High Powered Rap" vs. Flash's "Freedom". The Crash's version had a loop of "Get Up And Dance" that gave the record the same feeling as if you heard them rocking this in the parks. Flash's version featured the Sugarhill band replaying the same song. Flash's record was bigger because they had the Sugarhill muscle behind them, but in the streets the Crash Crew record was the winner, hands down.
Do not misunderstand my point, I am not trying to discount every old school rap record that had a band playing on it- that would be crazy. A lot of those bands got down, man! Stuff like Fantasy 3 "It's Your Rock", Busy Bee "Makin' Cash Money", Treacherous Three "Feel The Heartbeat".... seriously dope, classic stuff. But the vast majority of those records did not accurately reflect what was happening at clubs like The T-Connection, Harlem World, the PAL centers, the parks, etc. Those old tapes tell the REAL story, not the records.
You do know, faux, that Def Jam records (the home of Young Jeezy, just so you know what I'm talking about
From T-La Rock to Young Jeezy... how we have progressed!
See, this is interesting to me because, despite living in the North-West of England at the time, I bought both those Flash records when they came out because I was actively seeking out any kind of rap music at that point. I would buy anything that even looked like a rap record. At the time, "Freedom" was the most exciting thing I'd heard since the fucking Sex Pistols and, with "Flash To The Beat" I was like, OK, this is a little bit different, but it's still good. Obviously, there's no way I would have viewed those records from the same perspective as you, but it's an interesting angle to consider when you say that you can't understand how someone might consider "Hollaback Girl" to be a hip-hop record, real or otherwise. I mean, I didn't have any other points of reference beyond "Rapper's Delight" and "The Breaks" when I first heard "Freedom", but I knew right away that it was a better record than either of them.
I think there are a lot of Southern records, Phil, that are similar to the production on T-La Rock. I mean, it's all 808 man. I think that is the point Faux (and I) are hammering at. Nohomo?
So just because they are using an 808 you are saying that they are the same thing??? That's all it takes, just program a beat on an 808? You don't really believe that, dog. You KNOW better.
The Fix was good too and that's full of samples.
Where do you think they got the idea to rock the 808 from? THAT fucking record man. That was a critical record in terms of production on the west coast and in the south.
I recall reading an interview with jazzy jay, where he talked about using that 808 bass drum for the first time on that song... perhaps it was used before, don't know for sure... but that is the foundation of the music that's been coming out of the rest of the country for 20 years now. It's not just a coincidence. It's a direct outgrowth of that record.... the real schitt
Not arguing the merits of Jeezy as a rapper against TLaRock. No comparison. But production wise, man it is not that far apart and I KNOW you can see that. You did that thread about Triggerman, you listened to that 808 break right?
Now I've gotta go home and stop arguing about hip-hop!
Phill,
I wanna see if I get this: when you're talkin about real hip hop & young jeezy, you're not comparing production techniques or stuff like 808 breaks, are you? T La Rock & Jeezy may not be far apart, in relation to the way the music is made - Is what you're talking about is a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, or a kind of atmosphere created by the music?
Peace
h
Yep, I did. I actually have that record- didn't even realize that I had it since back when it first came out. It is not a good record, but that break is definitely nice. Reminds me of a lot of old drumbreak records where the whole song is bad and then a dope break just comes in out of nowhere for a few seconds, then it's right back to the wackness.
I know all about the influence of "It's Yours" and other records like the Original Concept joint on Southern rap. I honestly have never heard a southern rap song that sounds like "It's Yours", but I don't doubt that some may exist (beat-wise, at least). If you or anybody else has MP3s I'd like to hear some of this stuff.
I think you and faux are just focusing on what you want to focus on, though. "Don't say that the music that I love from my area is not that real shit! It IS that real shit!" If you understand the differences in musical styles that I have illustrated then you should understand what I'm talking about. Is your favorite hip-house record also real hip hop? Is your favorite new jack swing record "that real shit"? They are all off-shoots of traditional hip hop, just like southern rap, west coast g-rap, booty bass, etc. It doesn't matter, they are something different from what to me is "that real hip hop shit". You guys have to stop feeling like your music is being disrespected when I say this- I respect ALL of that stuff for what it is. Does not mean that I have to love it like I love raw hip hop music, just like you do not have to love Primo's recent beats as much as you love Dipset. Different strokes for different folks.
This goes out to all of you dudes who have been having this same convo for a good 10 years now.
I'm with Phill on this though, as I'm sure most of you know.
Anyway, it's far past the hour at which I am allowed to argue about hip-hop! I will see you idoits and folls in the am
realhip hop shit" that you have amassed over the years to me i think i can find some use for it,i'm sure of it.You know we starving outhere in the 3rd world brethren.And a small question what would you classify the afrika bambaataa songs "Looking for a perfect beat" etc as? please feel free to crush my world some more.
I have always said that much of today's hip hop reminds me of the mid 80's drum machine era of rap. That was not really a great time period in old school history IMO. Of course there were some good records made during that time, but you have to factor in more than just the drum sounds being used. You know the saying,
"it's not what you have, it's what you do with it". So yes, HAZ, I would say that it's about a difference in the vibe, a feeling in the gut, and a kind of atmosphere created by the music. I just don't know if I can explain it any further than I already have. I'm tired, I need to go to bed (whew... all day arguing about this shit when I shoulda been busy making moves in the real world! Please don't bait me into sinking deeper into this abyss tomorrow, dudes... I need to get some work done.)
Primo...rock on!
J/k. It is still boring.