I'm not saying it's not real hip-hop... see, to me it's all real hip-hop. But I think that's where the difference in native area comes up.
But yeah, it's just my opinion but I feel the same way about other forms of music. There's some good recent jazz that's come out, but it's not gonna make me go buy that over a Hank Mobley record. Same thing with rock, and so on.
I'm not saying it's not real hip-hop... see, to me it's all real hip-hop.
This is the problem, my brotha... this is not true. It may all be hip hop (although I'd prefer to say it's all rap), but there is a difference when you talk about that real shit. I'll say it again, real recognizes real. It's a certain feeling in the music, and either you have that feeling inside of you or you don't. There's a lot of rap that I like and respect, but it's still not the same as that real shit, which does originate from New York but I think there are people all over the world, of all races, who have that same feeling inside.
But I think that's where the difference in native area comes up.
I am a dude who actually went to parties by Bambaataa / Cold Crush / Flash etc. back in the days. What I know as real hip hop IS real hip hop.
just kidding...i actually like/respect KRS ONE and you too Phil
Ha ha... yeah, KRS is most definitely hip hop (probably a little TOO hip hop, even for me... but I still love the dude)! Yeah, man... I definitely respect you as well, Ed, just as I respect my boys Johnny Pay, O-Dub, and others with a differing view on Primo's beats and hip hop in general (the jury's still out on that faux_rill dude, though ). It's cool for everybody to put their views out there. I guess I just feel like a kid who's sticking up for his little brother when the whole schoolyard starts picking on him... gotta stand up for the music I care about when it's under attack. I know there are other people out there who feel like I do but don't want to come off as being "out of touch" or something. Me, I have no such concerns. I actually like being out of touch these days!
I'm not saying it's not real hip-hop... see, to me it's all real hip-hop.
This is the problem, my brotha... this is not true. It may all be hip hop (although I'd prefer to say it's all rap), but there is a difference when you talk about that real shit. I'll say it again, real recognizes real. It's a certain feeling in the music, and either you have that feeling inside of you or you don't. There's a lot of rap that I like and respect, but it's still not the same as that real shit, which does originate from New York but I think there are people all over the world, of all races, who have that same feeling inside.
what's real shit to you is not real shit to everyone though holmes.... If we are talking about New York real shit, then yes.... but what was getting bumped out around my town in the 70s and 80s is not the same thing. I would like for you to step to a jherri'd out dude in a track suit bumping rodney o. & joe cooley and tell him that shit ain't the real shit. Well, no I wouldn't, cause I like you, but you get what I'm saying
But I think that's where the difference in native area comes up.
Don't forget that Primo is from Texas. Primo's prolly one of them wannabe New York HOUSERS blud.
I'd just to like to point out that my criticism of current Primo shouldn't be misconstrued as haterade. Dude has made some of the fucking best hip-hop beats ever and I would never attempt to deny that. He's remarkable in so many ways and was relevant and inventive for almost a decade. That's pretty staggering.
He's got nothing to be ashamed of and I don't feel like anyone needs to "stick up" for a guy who we all admire tremendously. Primo for president...
what's real shit to you is not real shit to everyone though holmes.... If we are talking about New York real shit, then yes.... but what was getting bumped out around my town in the 70s and 80s is not the same thing. I would like for you to step to a jherri'd out dude in a track suit bumping rodney o. & joe cooley and tell him that shit ain't the real shit. Well, no I wouldn't, cause I like you, but you get what I'm saying
I'm talking about real traditional hip hop shit, son. It comes from, but is not exclusively from, New York. We already discussed this before, but it appears I have to keep beating the shit out of this nag. I think what's going in here is that because you're from the west you feel like it's important that the music you grew up on is considered "real hip hop". Dude, why should you care if it's real hip hop or not? It's the music that you love, so that's all that should matter to you. We can put whatever labels on this stuff that we want to, but the fact is that the term "hip hop" comes from New York and as far as music goes it's describing a certain sound. We can argue all day about what it is or isn't, but I'll say it again- real recognizes real. If I have this discussion with Primo, Diamond D, Showbiz, Buckwild, The Beatminerz, RZA, the 45 King, T-Ray, Muggz, Lord Finesse, the Beatnuts or any other producer known for doing what I consider "real hip hop" they will know what I'm talking about. I know this because I have actually had conversations with some of these dudes about this. Of course, none of these guys are "relevant" anymore, right? Well, I have no doubts that if I had this discussion with Kanye, Just Blaze, Alchemist etc. THEY would understand, too. Others would understand as well, like the Neptunes, Jermaine Dupree, Dre and Timberland, but they wouldn't give a fuck about it.
A-ight, I"M DONE, MANE! Love whatever kind of music you want to love and don't worry about if it's real hip hop or not- just love it the way that I love that real schitt- in a sickly passionate way that borders on mental illness.
Alright alright... jherri sweats dude would've said "hip-hop? The fuck is that cuz? This ain't that new york shit hippidy hoppidy whatever, this is g shit."
again though dogs, I'm not arguing that what you call hip-hop is not real hip-hop; it is. But then what was whodini, as an example of a group that used keyboards and drum machines? What's mantronix, is that more like freestyle? Is real hip-hop just beats and breaks? I'm not asking cause I don't know, but because this is interesting to me. It's not as cut and dried as you want it to be imo, though
Alright alright... jherri sweats dude would've said "hip-hop? The fuck is that cuz? This ain't that new york shit hippidy hoppidy whatever, this is g shit."
again though dogs, I'm not arguing that what you call hip-hop is not real hip-hop; it is. But then what was whodini, as an example of a group that used keyboards and drum machines? What's mantronix, is that more like freestyle? Is real hip-hop just beats and breaks? I'm not asking cause I don't know, but because this is interesting to me. It's not as cut and dried as you want it to be imo, though
They aren't that real shit.
Nah Whodini was more crossover IMO. Mantronix was more experimental IMO. All had their place. But I wouldn't put them in that real shit category that Phil is referring to... Its a huge grey area though.
The definition of "real hip-hop" includes 90s producers but not Whodini? I'm confused now
No seriously, if it's just two turntables and doubles of breakbeats, then I'm down with that. But then how does it include Primo, who's a wizard of the sampler? If it includes Steinski, Kurtis M., then why not Mannie Fresh or DJ Toomp? Shit I have been listening to my holmeses Latin Rascals radio edit mixes from like 1984, and that shit is hip-hop as fuck
Alright alright... jherri sweats dude would've said "hip-hop? The fuck is that cuz? This ain't that new york shit hippidy hoppidy whatever, this is g shit."
again though dogs, I'm not arguing that what you call hip-hop is not real hip-hop; it is. But then what was whodini, as an example of a group that used keyboards and drum machines? What's mantronix, is that more like freestyle? Is real hip-hop just beats and breaks? I'm not asking cause I don't know, but because this is interesting to me. It's not as cut and dried as you want it to be imo, though
They aren't that real shit.
Nah Whodini was more crossover IMO. Mantronix was more experimental IMO. All had their place. But I wouldn't put them in that real shit category that Phil is referring to... Its a huge grey area though.
Yessir! I liked Whodini and Mantronix a lot. Mantronix actually did do a few things that I would call that real shit (mostly stuff on Just Ice's 1st album). But for the most part, Whodini and Mantronix DEFINITELY were not "that real shit". Doesn't mean they weren't good at what they did, though. Just like it doesn't mean that Rodney O and them weren't nice with that west coast g-shit... they're just different animals.
33thirdcom, you have earned an official Soulman award!
I knew a hell of a lot of hood doods wearing troop 3/4 acid wash goose-downs with the travel foxes that would rather bump Mantronix over just about anything... and Im not talking jherihood steez.
Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
I call bullshit.
Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Hey Guys,
"Real hip-hop" has the gritty, raw feel to it. Think of it as a comparison between "Funky Beat" by Whodini and "Eric B for President" by Eric B and Rakim. As for Mantronix, compare "Hardcore Hip-Hop" to "My Radio" by L.L. Cool J, which dropped in the same year. These comparisons do not diminish any of the songs listed, they just illustrate the differences between sound. Phill is hittin' this topic dead on the head, and this is coming from an old cat that's been following hip-hop since the late 70's. I've stayed out of the topic primarily because feel has been tapping my thoughts througout. Preach on brother
After all this discussion about "that real shit", boring and uninspiring beats, jheri curls etc., finally had a chance to listen to this Big Shug album that set off the whole discussion. You know what? I agree at least partially with O-Dub- a lot of these beats really ARE pretty damn boring! I think there are also some decent ones mixed in there, though- maybe not up there with his best work, but still decent. And does anyone have the official cd with the producers credits on it? Because if some of these beats are Primo's handiwork then he DEFINITELY is making some attempts to update his sound. But if that's the case then he needs to just stick to the so-called boring and uninspiring stuff IMO.
Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Phil, I don't think anyone here would have trouble hearing the differences between "Bassline" and "Marley Scratch".
The problem is that the term that you use to characterize that difference is a) not very descriptive, and b) value-laden.
When you insist on referring to records like "Marley Scratch" as "real," the implication is that everything else is fake, and what's more, somehow inferior... and a lot of us reject that.
Also, you keep invoking "back in the day," but I don't think it makes any kind of sense to judge all hip-hop by a static definition rooted in a certain historical moment. For example, if we were to judge the earliest rap records by the standard that was applied to hip-hop prior to 1979, then we'd have to conclude that classics like "That's the Joint" are also not "real," since the phenomenon of MCs rhyming over backing tracks provided by live bands bears little resemblance to what hip-hop had been prior to that point.
I would say though that there were beats on the Devin album that slayed Doobie Ashtray. Not a dis to Primo, the track was dope. But there was a time when that would not have happened? Maybe.
I would say though that there were beats on the Devin album that slayed Doobie Ashtray. Not a dis to Primo, the track was dope. But there was a time when that would not have happened? Maybe.
Wouldn't argue with that at all.
"Doobie Ashtray" in the context of Just Tryin' to Live = ehhh
"Doobie Ashtray" in the context of all the bullschitt he's done in recent years for the Pitch Blacks of the world = standout
Comments
But yeah, it's just my opinion but I feel the same way about other forms of music. There's some good recent jazz that's come out, but it's not gonna make me go buy that over a Hank Mobley record. Same thing with rock, and so on.
just kidding...i actually like/respect KRS ONE and you too Phil .
This is the problem, my brotha... this is not true. It may all be hip hop (although I'd prefer to say it's all rap), but there is a difference when you talk about that real shit. I'll say it again, real recognizes real. It's a certain feeling in the music, and either you have that feeling inside of you or you don't. There's a lot of rap that I like and respect, but it's still not the same as that real shit, which does originate from New York but I think there are people all over the world, of all races, who have that same feeling inside.
Don't forget that Primo is from Texas.
Ha ha... yeah, KRS is most definitely hip hop (probably a little TOO hip hop, even for me... but I still love the dude)!
Yeah, man... I definitely respect you as well, Ed, just as I respect my boys Johnny Pay, O-Dub, and others with a differing view on Primo's beats and hip hop in general (the jury's still out on that faux_rill dude, though
what's real shit to you is not real shit to everyone though holmes.... If we are talking about New York real shit, then yes.... but what was getting bumped out around my town in the 70s and 80s is not the same thing. I would like for you to step to a jherri'd out dude in a track suit bumping rodney o. & joe cooley and tell him that shit ain't the real shit. Well, no I wouldn't, cause I like you, but you get what I'm saying
Don't forget that Primo is from Texas.
Primo's prolly one of them wannabe New York HOUSERS blud.
He's got nothing to be ashamed of and I don't feel like anyone needs to "stick up" for a guy who we all admire tremendously. Primo for president...
...but, ya know, stop making boring beats!
-e
I'm talking about real traditional hip hop shit, son. It comes from, but is not exclusively from, New York. We already discussed this before, but it appears I have to keep beating the shit out of this nag. I think what's going in here is that because you're from the west you feel like it's important that the music you grew up on is considered "real hip hop". Dude, why should you care if it's real hip hop or not? It's the music that you love, so that's all that should matter to you. We can put whatever labels on this stuff that we want to, but the fact is that the term "hip hop" comes from New York and as far as music goes it's describing a certain sound.
We can argue all day about what it is or isn't, but I'll say it again- real recognizes real. If I have this discussion with Primo, Diamond D, Showbiz, Buckwild, The Beatminerz, RZA, the 45 King, T-Ray, Muggz, Lord Finesse, the Beatnuts or any other producer known for doing what I consider "real hip hop" they will know what I'm talking about. I know this because I have actually had conversations with some of these dudes about this. Of course, none of these guys are "relevant" anymore, right? Well, I have no doubts that if I had this discussion with Kanye, Just Blaze, Alchemist etc. THEY would understand, too. Others would understand as well, like the Neptunes, Jermaine Dupree, Dre and Timberland, but they wouldn't give a fuck about it.
A-ight, I"M DONE, MANE! Love whatever kind of music you want to love and don't worry about if it's real hip hop or not- just love it the way that I love that real schitt- in a sickly passionate way that borders on mental illness.
PRIMO FOR PRESIDENT
again though dogs, I'm not arguing that what you call hip-hop is not real hip-hop; it is. But then what was whodini, as an example of a group that used keyboards and drum machines? What's mantronix, is that more like freestyle? Is real hip-hop just beats and breaks? I'm not asking cause I don't know, but because this is interesting to me. It's not as cut and dried as you want it to be imo, though
They aren't that real shit.
Nah Whodini was more crossover IMO. Mantronix was more experimental IMO. All had their place. But I wouldn't put them in that real shit category that Phil is referring to... Its a huge grey area though.
No seriously, if it's just two turntables and doubles of breakbeats, then I'm down with that. But then how does it include Primo, who's a wizard of the sampler? If it includes Steinski, Kurtis M., then why not Mannie Fresh or DJ Toomp? Shit I have been listening to my holmeses Latin Rascals radio edit mixes from like 1984, and that shit is hip-hop as fuck
(IMO)
Yessir! I liked Whodini and Mantronix a lot. Mantronix actually did do a few things that I would call that real shit (mostly stuff on Just Ice's 1st album). But for the most part, Whodini and Mantronix DEFINITELY were not "that real shit". Doesn't mean they weren't good at what they did, though. Just like it doesn't mean that Rodney O and them weren't nice with that west coast g-shit... they're just different animals.
33thirdcom, you have earned an official Soulman
Mantronix and Whodini are equally if not more "real" than any Pete Rock or Primo produced shit. I think we've reached the real issue here.
I knew a hell of a lot of hood doods wearing troop 3/4 acid wash goose-downs with the travel foxes that would rather bump Mantronix over just about anything... and Im not talking jherihood steez.
Once again, we have people who do not understand the meaning of "that real shit". Those who know, know. Those who don't never will. If you cannot understand the difference between a record like Mantronix "Bassline" (which undoubtedly was a hot record in the streets when it hit) and, say, Marley Marl & MC Shan's "Marley Scratch" then there is no need in even engaging in this discussion. I am in no way saying that Mantronix or Whodini are not hip hop or that they are fake hip hop- this is definitely not the case. They were dope, but they were not that real shit, meaning they were not raw hip hop. If I really need to explain this then I don't think you can ever totally understand what I'm getting at. Don't get upset, though... I love you despite your faults.
Hey Guys,
"Real hip-hop" has the gritty, raw feel to it. Think of it as a comparison between "Funky Beat" by Whodini and "Eric B for President" by Eric B and Rakim. As for Mantronix, compare "Hardcore Hip-Hop" to "My Radio" by L.L. Cool J, which dropped in the same year. These comparisons do not diminish any of the songs listed, they just illustrate the differences between sound. Phill is hittin' this topic dead on the head, and this is coming from an old cat that's been following hip-hop since the late 70's. I've stayed out of the topic primarily because feel has been tapping my thoughts througout. Preach on brother
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
Phil, I don't think anyone here would have trouble hearing the differences between "Bassline" and "Marley Scratch".
The problem is that the term that you use to characterize that difference is a) not very descriptive, and b) value-laden.
When you insist on referring to records like "Marley Scratch" as "real," the implication is that everything else is fake, and what's more, somehow inferior... and a lot of us reject that.
Also, you keep invoking "back in the day," but I don't think it makes any kind of sense to judge all hip-hop by a static definition rooted in a certain historical moment. For example, if we were to judge the earliest rap records by the standard that was applied to hip-hop prior to 1979, then we'd have to conclude that classics like "That's the Joint" are also not "real," since the phenomenon of MCs rhyming over backing tracks provided by live bands bears little resemblance to what hip-hop had been prior to that point.
explain, mayne.
Somebody holler at Baudrillard.
-e
Loosen your kufi.
unbutton your button up
reminds me of "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it."
cosign on these terms being value-laden. if you really respect what you don't arbitrarily label "the real shit," pick a different word.
What was the last great track that Primo did? Can anyone name anything that isn't 7-10 years old?
h
Last Primo-produced track that I remember thinking was ridiculous: Jay-Z's "So Ghetto"
Last two Primo tracks that I liked: Devin's "Doobie Ashtray" and Nas's "Second Childhood"
...and I should say that I'm commenting on the song as a whole, not just the production.
I'm going to check "doobie ashtray" when I get home. Can't remember the beat.
Wouldn't argue with that at all.
"Doobie Ashtray" in the context of Just Tryin' to Live = ehhh
"Doobie Ashtray" in the context of all the bullschitt he's done in recent years for the Pitch Blacks of the world = standout