Someone like Dre has a career that's 20 years old now and while I think he has a one-note style at times, Dre circa 85, circa 90, circa 99, circa 2005 does not sound the same.
If anything else, Dre's mixing has gotten more refined w/ the advance of time - although the beat's by Havoc (from what I understand), the mix (by Dre) of 50's 'Outta Control' sounds FULL w/ a confident swagger...
The interesting thing is that everything you wrote is what I wrote. And at no point in my thread I came with any (European) 4 element stuff. The most important thing is time:
You said if Masta IC would come out today you would ignor it, yes, I would agree with that. But what is in 20 years if you would dig through you golden age stuff and than, while digging, you would come across the Masta IC that came out in 2005. You wouldnt give a shit and bought beacuse its dope.
If not, than it must be that you hate on those Daptone and Desco stuff. It is not relevant for today. All I wann say is, your judgement on primo will have changed in 10-15 years, and therefore, I would not jugde him as hard as you all do.
The first two are obviously Primo, the third is not.
this beat is cool as hell, too bad it was wasted on shugs old ass. imagine the dips over this shit. but do you mean that primo didn't produce it? Or by "not obviously primo" do you mean to say that it's, that it's an atypical primo beat?
although i can't speak for the shug project (and honestly based on those clips, i'd like to keep it that way). i think it should be considered that a lot of the artists preem works with might be requesting primo sounding shit. you know? they pay for one primo beat so they want the scratched hook, the jarring chops and shit. a lot of the artists he works with are still living in 94, so maybe the blame isn't entirely on him. when he strays from the formula he can still bring the niceness ("Doobie Ashtray" comes to mind immediately as a post-moment of truth cut that's just as good if not better than primo in his prime)
>Uh, Bob Dylan did change his style when he went electric. A lot of folks hated it
OK, therefore they told him to change his style. But he did what he wanted. So who am I to tell him to do it diffrently.
>The Beatles? C'mon dude, the Beatles' changed their style on every fucking album >after "Revolver."
Yes, but again, every critic got something to say. It is the same with sports. Everybody is talking like the coach. But there is alreday one.
>Did Coltrane rock the same style throughout his career? >Marvin Gaye? >Curtis Mayfield?
Please, how long were their carrers ?? And how long is Prioms carrer till now ??
>Primo? He's ridden the same style for 8 years now. This, "it's his style and he's >sticking ot it, therefore he deserves respect" is, no offense, kind of bullshit to >me. He's not being a purist - that's being either lazy or tapped out of ideas.
Yes he gets respect for doing the exact thing he wants to do, I'm not giving him respect for being innovativ, because he is far away from being innovativ. Please dont change that up. Like I told ya, I dont think he is lazy or tapped out of ideas. He is at another point, and this is not the point were we at. And his style of producing is used by alot of other dudes who get a lot of respect for that. I'm not saying that Alchemist is biting Primo, but you can defenitly here who influenced him.
This whole thread is just proof of what I already said- the LISTENERS have changed more than Primo has changed. The two Primo tracks "On The Record" & "Sic A Ni99as" are pretty dope to me and definitely would have been liked by the "real hip hop heads" if they dropped in the mid 90's. This is what it is- times have changed, there's a whole new breed of hip hop fan now who likes some different schitt, a lot of which doesn't really even sound like what we used to know as hip hop. People are talking a lot about Primo not being able to change with the times, but the dude who interviewed Premier hit it right on the head- he doesn't want to change with the times because he, like most of us who have been around since back in the days, doesn't necessarily like how the times have changed. For him to make the adjustments to his style that some are suggesting might make him more relevant today would be, in his eyes, to start making the wack ass music that he doesn't even like. You have to understand, for some people it's about more than just staying on top, it's about making the music that you love. And Primo is one of the few great hip hop producers of the 90's that I've never met, but I don't have to know dukes personally to know that he still loves the kind of music that he's always made- it's just that much of the public has moved on and doesn't love that style anymore. And in many cases, I question how much they EVER really loved that real hip hop style of music.
It's not a "problem" that you're in Europe, but the very fact that you're European basically means that you probably expect different things from hip-hop. European hip-hop heads are rather notorious for up-holding the 4 elements and letting "real hip-hop" roam free and the 4-element-construction of hip-hop in America is, to a very large extent, dead.
Pardon my French, but fuck that. You generalize like Europeans expect Americans to generalize. The reason why (non-current) American artists are so quick to point out how Euro heads are so appreciative of "real hip hop" is for the simple fact that for many it's their first time seeing a De La Soul or a Lord Finesse live. And that 4 element, unity stuff? Yeah, I saw some of that on German MTV 5+ years ago. Nowadays it's mostly kids in 3XL white tees trying to look/ sound like Dipset or the types who could care less about graffiti.
Someone like Dre has a career that's 20 years old now and while I think he has a one-note style at times, Dre circa 85, circa 90, circa 99, circa 2005 does not sound the same.
If anything else, Dre's mixing has gotten more refined w/ the advance of time
True--and I think he's far more interested in mixing than producing these days. I mean, listen to the beats on No One Can Do it Better--they're very dynamic and musical. A lot of changes, a lot of new parts coming in and out, you really get a full song out of it. Contrast with Dre's work of today, where his engineering/mixing is impeccable, and he still makes some knockin' beats, but the songs seem very flat. Once you hear the first four bars, you've heard the entire song.
a whole new breed of hip hop fan now who likes some different schitt I question how much they EVER really loved that real hip hop style of music.
new breed ? EVER really loved "real" hip hop style?
i have more love,respect,knowledge and credibilty when it comes to hip hop music than 90% of this board...
Hip Hop has always been about debate,change and open mindedness...just because i think that 'take it back' beat sucks ass and the other two are mediocre(besides the fact they carry Primo's name) does not mean i never loved hip hop and don't know what a 'dope beat' is.
It's not a "problem" that you're in Europe, but the very fact that you're European basically means that you probably expect different things from hip-hop. European hip-hop heads are rather notorious for up-holding the 4 elements and letting "real hip-hop" roam free and the 4-element-construction of hip-hop in America is, to a very large extent, dead.
Pardon my French, but fuck that. You generalize like Europeans expect Americans to generalize. The reason why (non-current) American artists are so quick to point out how Euro heads are so appreciative of "real hip hop" is for the simple fact that for many it's their first time seeing a De La Soul or a Lord Finesse live. And that 4 element, unity stuff? Yeah, I saw some of that on German MTV 5+ years ago. Nowadays it's mostly kids in 3XL white tees trying to look/ sound like Dipset or the types who could care less about graffiti.
I don't know hommie. I was in Germany in April and there was graffiti everywhere and I went to a dope ass bboy battle that had like 3K+ people at it. I don't doubt there is a dipset contingent out there but the "real" hip hop is supported a lot more in Europe than it is in America. Same weekend I went to a show that had Bahamadia performing and it was over a thousand people there. That same show would have had 20 people in Seattle.
More to the point - Phil, what you define as "real hip-hop heads" basically equates to "NY/Tri-state hip-hop heads". The hip-hop coming out today sounds more like what I grew up listening to - in California - than "glory era"/"golden era" hip-hop does. We've been through this before, but back in the 80s & early 90s, for us, it was all about the 808 and keyboards and party chants and shit. I just feel like you never recognize this in the history of "real hip-hop".
I think the "real hip-hop heads in the 90s would have liked this" argument really is like "Primo could've farted on a track back then". What he was doing was at that time cutting edge, and while some of those tracks haven't stood the test of time, back then it all sounded fresh. Now, what's cutting edge sounds fresh and what's like mid-90s hip-hop sounds boring, even if it would have been considered good by 90s standards.
You see, thats how I felt the last 60 minutes. Now I have to do some non-relevant music for the compilation of this non-relevant music discussion board.
a whole new breed of hip hop fan now who likes some different schitt I question how much they EVER really loved that real hip hop style of music.
new breed ? EVER really loved "real" hip hop style?
i have more love,respect,knowledge and credibilty when it comes to hip hop music than 90% of this board...
Hip Hop has always been about debate,change and open mindedness...just because i think that 'take it back' beat sucks ass and the other two are mediocre(besides the fact they carry Primo's name) does not mean i never loved hip hop and don't know what a 'dope beat' is.
Man... nice chop job on my words, edpowers. Primo would be proud!
Nobody was talking about you personally, although you obviously were offended (of course... somebody's always gonna get offended when somebody else offers an opposing point of view). I'm sure you'll get over it, though.
Yo, hommie, you can like or dislike whatever you want to, it's a-ight with me. My point is that the style of beats that were hot in the mid 90's are no longer seen as hot by most hip hop listeners today, so I believe that's why many people think that a lot of his current stuff "sucks ass". I think if much of this schitt came out at the height of Primo-mania the reaction to it would be a lot different. Just my opinion... I mean damn, urrbody else on here has the right to have one, so can't I have one too?
1) I meant to say that "Take It Back" does not sound like Primo did it. I'm assuming it was another producer, biting the 'Ye-style. I thought it'd serve as an interesting contrast.
2) Phill - I hear what you're saying here but music is mercurial and so are our evolving tastes. I don't think Primo needs to change his style to be current with the times. I don't want ot hear him doing fuckin' crunk beats, ym? What I do want is for him to do something different from what he's been doing. I'm not asking for "contemporary". Just somethi8ng innovative. It's cool if Primo feels his style and doens't feel like he needs to change but I think it's also quite fair for those amongst us to say, "damn, Preem's boring now."
This whole thread is just proof of what I already said- the LISTENERS have changed more than Primo has changed. The two Primo tracks "On The Record" & "Sic A Ni99as" are pretty dope to me and definitely would have been liked by the "real hip hop heads" if they dropped in the mid 90's. This is what it is- times have changed, there's a whole new breed of hip hop fan now who likes some different schitt, a lot of which doesn't really even sound like what we used to know as hip hop. People are talking a lot about Primo not being able to change with the times, but the dude who interviewed Premier hit it right on the head- he doesn't want to change with the times because he, like most of us who have been around since back in the days, doesn't necessarily like how the times have changed. For him to make the adjustments to his style that some are suggesting might make him more relevant today would be, in his eyes, to start making the wack ass music that he doesn't even like. You have to understand, for some people it's about more than just staying on top, it's about making the music that you love. And Primo is one of the few great hip hop producers of the 90's that I've never met, but I don't have to know dukes personally to know that he still loves the kind of music that he's always made- it's just that much of the public has moved on and doesn't love that style anymore. And in many cases, I question how much they EVER really loved that real hip hop style of music.
More to the point - Phil, what you define as "real hip-hop heads" basically equates to "NY/Tri-state hip-hop heads". The hip-hop coming out today sounds more like what I grew up listening to - in California - than "glory era"/"golden era" hip-hop does. We've been through this before, but back in the 80s & early 90s, for us, it was all about the 808 and keyboards and party chants and shit. I just feel like you never recognize this in the history of "real hip-hop".
I think the "real hip-hop heads in the 90s would have liked this" argument really is like "Primo could've farted on a track back then". What he was doing was at that time cutting edge, and while some of those tracks haven't stood the test of time, back then it all sounded fresh. Now, what's cutting edge sounds fresh and what's like mid-90s hip-hop sounds boring, even if it would have been considered good by 90s standards.
and i'd like to take MY OPINION a step further and say East Coast heads are stubborn...
never have and never will HONESTLY recognize anything other than BOOM BAP as 'real' hip hop beats and hold on to these washed up golden era producers like a pacifier
when the west ran hip hop the torch was never officially passed WITH RESPECT
and now that the South has ran hip hop for the past 5+ years half the east coast dudes think a dirty south classic is 'South Bronx'
and i'd like to take MY OPINION a step further and say East Coast heads are stubborn...
never have and never will HONESTLY recognize anything other than BOOM BAP as 'real' hip hop beats and hold on to these washed up golden era producers like a pacifier
when the west ran hip hop the torch was never officially passed WITH RESPECT
Not to turn into Archaic here but they really didn't respect anything but NY shit until Big smashed them all by incorporating other reigons styles in his records. None of these NY people were bowing down to Pac and all this other shit until they were forced to. The same thing has happened with the South. NY doesn't even have a sound at this point.
Man... nice chop job on my words, edpowers. Nobody was talking about you personally
i didn't take it as a personal attack...not at all...but to say anyone who's not feeling those beats probably never really loved hip hop music as a whole was one helluva stretch and semi elitist...
i belive hip hop music is 'Youth Music' and is constantly changing/evolving and those who believe the music should have the same formula for 10-20 years without change/progress come across as stubborn old men see:Jazz
2) Phill - I hear what you're saying here but music is mercurial and so are our evolving tastes. I don't think Primo needs to change his style to be current with the times. I don't want ot hear him doing fuckin' crunk beats, ym? What I do want is for him to do something different from what he's been doing. I'm not asking for "contemporary". Just somethi8ng innovative. It's cool if Primo feels his style and doens't feel like he needs to change but I think it's also quite fair for those amongst us to say, "damn, Preem's boring now."
Oh, without a doubt. That's VERY understandable. Most of us here on Soulstrut have some knowledge of music history, and if you look back throughout the years music has NEVER stood still. It always evolves and people always want something new, especially as each new generation comes up. Truth be told, I think the sound of Hip Hop is pretty close to what the original sound was in comparison to how some other forms of music have changed drastically since inception. But even with that, Hip Hop has always, always, ALWAYS changed every few years- what's going on right now is not really anything all that new. So I totally expect the newer hip hop listeners to feel that what Primo's doing is dated. I'm just surprised when dudes who thought Premier could do no wrong in 95 or whenever now are not feeling ANYTHING that Preem is doing now, because IMO he has dropped some heaters in the past few years. Just off the top of my head I can think of the AZ, Tony Touch & Pitch Black beats that were bananas... the Big Shug ones I wouldn't say rank with Primo's best, but I certainly wouldn't say they "suck ass" either. But that's just me, I guess... I AM a grumpy old fuck, after all (and proud of it!).
"Doobie Ashtray" comes to mind immediately as a post-moment of truth cut that's just as good if not better than primo in his prime)
not to mention a cut without an obvious sample. premier can rock synths apparantly. of course its already 4 years old. a sign that he is too stubborn to stray from his signature. but also a good sign that he could kill it if he reworked his style a little into the template of today's hip hop. The man must realise that you have to give up a little of the past, its 2005.
man I don't understand why everyone wants him to reinvent himself. I look at them as artists and they made it with their style taht set them apart and yeh it may not be the hot new shit but its still nice to listen to. And if they are comfortable and still able to do work with that style, what does it matter?
I mean I compare it to artists... Picasso went through stages and growth but when he foudn something that worked he was comfortable with he ran with it and didn't really vary too much. To me theya re similar because they created a signature style blew up with it and used that to help seperate themselves from the pack.
Do you really want to see Primo change his style up? I meanr eally attmept to? I have a feeling it would be kinda sad if he started at this point chasing whatever the hot style is at the moment. Plus every artist has slumps, ups and downs as noted by the Mickey Mantle reference. And seriously after revisiting the Ownerz the album continues to grow on me, but what do I know its not a crowd favorite so I probably shouldn't like it
And fuck a handclap that shit is way too overused right now.
Man... nice chop job on my words, edpowers. Nobody was talking about you personally
i didn't take it as a personal attack...not at all...but to say anyone who's not feeling those beats probably never really loved hip hop music[/b] as a whole was one helluva stretch and semi elitist...
I NEVER SAID THIS. Go back and read the words carefully. And try to UNDERSTAND what I'm saying without having the kind of kneejerk reaction that people usually have when they feel that they are being personally attacked. It is what it is, mane... I'm sorry if anybody takes it the wrong way, but that's how I feel about it.
Sorry, some last thoughts that came through my mind.
You all right, Primo is boring. And yes, it is allowed to say. But we all have to accept that it HIS oppinion which music he is making, and it could be that our judgement on him will be something compeltly difrent in 10+ years from now.
There was a cover story in a German hiphop magazine about James Brown. The main topic throughout the article was that James is a legend, but his newest music is in no way relevant to todays music listeners. He tryed to stay on top by making music in a "modern" sound.
@ O Dub
I'm more into Mayfield and Gaye than into Coltrain. So Coltrain had his 12 years but you know that Gayes career was over 20 years and the same goes for Mayfield.
Do you really want to see Primo change his style up?
I'd just be happy if he made beats I liked
Or at least: work with better rappers.
But back to Phill - his track for AZ (who is a good rapper) on "The Come Up" is just what I'm talking about. It's dull, sleepy. Ironically, he does scratches on "New York" on the same album but Emile comes with a track that's actual heat, even if it's just recycling some classic UBB shit.
There was a cover story in a German hiphop magazine about James Brown. The main topic throughout the article was that James is a legend, but his newest music is in no way relevant to todays music listeners. He tryed to stay on top by making music in a "modern" sound.
is there anyone in here who thinks james brown didn't fall off?
Big_Stacks"I don't worry about hittin' power, cause I don't give 'em nuttin' to hit." 4,670 Posts
Hey Guys,
Does making one bad album mean you "fell off"? Yes, the "Owners" was not the best Gangstarr effort, but that doesn't mean Primo is washed up. Plus, he just lost his main MC and is going through a lot of flux right now. It's hard to adjust to new conditions in a fast changing environment. He may be in some sort of artistic flux, where he needs to find his style and niche again. That must be difficult in the quick-paced landscape of hip-hop. With that said, I can relate to Primo in that I hate that keyboard, hand-clap shit too; however, as stubborn as I am, I try to do some more "mainstream" stuff (e.g., "Heavy-Hitter"). Plus, my mane E got me doing R&Bish stuff like "Black Girl" that was a SERIOUS creative stretch for a boom-bap cat like me. Primo needs a steady MC or so to help him crystallize an "evolved" sound. The same argument could go for Pete Rock as well. As producers, we've all probably went through periods where it's hard to get your creative bearings, but only time will tell.
anyone who's not feeling those beats probably never really loved hip hop music[/b]
I NEVER SAID THIS.
it's just that much of the public has moved on and doesn't love that style anymore. And in many cases, I question how much they EVER really loved that real hip hop style of music.[/b]
maybe i took this the wrong way
as long as we can respect each other's opinions ..Saul Goode
Comments
If anything else, Dre's mixing has gotten more refined w/ the advance of time - although the beat's by Havoc (from what I understand), the mix (by Dre) of 50's 'Outta Control' sounds FULL w/ a confident swagger...
You said if Masta IC would come out today you would ignor it, yes, I would agree with that.
But what is in 20 years if you would dig through you golden age stuff and than, while digging, you would come across the Masta IC that came out in 2005. You wouldnt give a shit and bought beacuse its dope.
If not, than it must be that you hate on those Daptone and Desco stuff. It is not relevant for today. All I wann say is, your judgement on primo will have changed in 10-15 years, and therefore, I would not jugde him as hard as you all do.
Peace
Hawkeye
this beat is cool as hell, too bad it was wasted on shugs old ass. imagine the dips over this shit. but do you mean that primo didn't produce it? Or by "not obviously primo" do you mean to say that it's, that it's an atypical primo beat?
although i can't speak for the shug project (and honestly based on those clips, i'd like to keep it that way). i think it should be considered that a lot of the artists preem works with might be requesting primo sounding shit. you know? they pay for one primo beat so they want the scratched hook, the jarring chops and shit. a lot of the artists he works with are still living in 94, so maybe the blame isn't entirely on him. when he strays from the formula he can still bring the niceness ("Doobie Ashtray" comes to mind immediately as a post-moment of truth cut that's just as good if not better than primo in his prime)
OK, therefore they told him to change his style. But he did what he wanted. So who am I to tell him to do it diffrently.
>The Beatles? C'mon dude, the Beatles' changed their style on every fucking album >after "Revolver."
Yes, but again, every critic got something to say. It is the same with sports. Everybody is talking like the coach. But there is alreday one.
>Did Coltrane rock the same style throughout his career?
>Marvin Gaye?
>Curtis Mayfield?
Please, how long were their carrers ?? And how long is Prioms carrer till now ??
>Primo? He's ridden the same style for 8 years now. This, "it's his style and he's >sticking ot it, therefore he deserves respect" is, no offense, kind of bullshit to >me. He's not being a purist - that's being either lazy or tapped out of ideas.
Yes he gets respect for doing the exact thing he wants to do, I'm not giving him respect for being innovativ, because he is far away from being innovativ. Please dont change that up.
Like I told ya, I dont think he is lazy or tapped out of ideas. He is at another point, and this is not the point were we at. And his style of producing is used by alot of other dudes who get a lot of respect for that. I'm not saying that Alchemist is biting Primo, but you can defenitly here who influenced him.
Peace
Hawkeye
This whole thread is just proof of what I already said- the LISTENERS have changed more than Primo has changed. The two Primo tracks "On The Record" & "Sic A Ni99as" are pretty dope to me and definitely would have been liked by the "real hip hop heads" if they dropped in the mid 90's.
This is what it is- times have changed, there's a whole new breed of hip hop fan now who likes some different schitt, a lot of which doesn't really even sound like what we used to know as hip hop. People are talking a lot about Primo not being able to change with the times, but the dude who interviewed Premier hit it right on the head- he doesn't want to change with the times because he, like most of us who have been around since back in the days, doesn't necessarily like how the times have changed. For him to make the adjustments to his style that some are suggesting might make him more relevant today would be, in his eyes, to start making the wack ass music that he doesn't even like.
You have to understand, for some people it's about more than just staying on top, it's about making the music that you love. And Primo is one of the few great hip hop producers of the 90's that I've never met, but I don't have to know dukes personally to know that he still loves the kind of music that he's always made- it's just that much of the public has moved on and doesn't love that style anymore. And in many cases, I question how much they EVER really loved that real hip hop style of music.
Pardon my French, but fuck that. You generalize like Europeans expect Americans to generalize. The reason why (non-current) American artists are so quick to point out how Euro heads are so appreciative of "real hip hop" is for the simple fact that for many it's their first time seeing a De La Soul or a Lord Finesse live. And that 4 element, unity stuff? Yeah, I saw some of that on German MTV 5+ years ago. Nowadays it's mostly kids in 3XL white tees trying to look/ sound like Dipset or the
Trane: 1950 - 1967
Preem: 1989 - 2005
True--and I think he's far more interested in mixing than producing these days. I mean, listen to the beats on No One Can Do it Better--they're very dynamic and musical. A lot of changes, a lot of new parts coming in and out, you really get a full song out of it. Contrast with Dre's work of today, where his engineering/mixing is impeccable, and he still makes some knockin' beats, but the songs seem very flat. Once you hear the first four bars, you've heard the entire song.
>Preem: 1989 - 2005
So give him at least one year before hating him.
new breed ? EVER really loved "real" hip hop style?
i have more love,respect,knowledge and credibilty when it comes to hip hop music than 90% of this board...
Hip Hop has always been about debate,change and open mindedness...just because i think that 'take it back' beat sucks ass and the other two are mediocre(besides the fact they carry Primo's name) does not mean i never loved hip hop and don't know what a 'dope beat' is.
I don't know hommie. I was in Germany in April and there was graffiti everywhere and I went to a dope ass bboy battle that had like 3K+ people at it. I don't doubt there is a dipset contingent out there but the "real" hip hop is supported a lot more in Europe than it is in America. Same weekend I went to a show that had Bahamadia performing and it was over a thousand people there. That same show would have had 20 people in Seattle.
Are you serious? I can't even take this conversation for real now.
I think the "real hip-hop heads in the 90s would have liked this" argument really is like "Primo could've farted on a track back then". What he was doing was at that time cutting edge, and while some of those tracks haven't stood the test of time, back then it all sounded fresh. Now, what's cutting edge sounds fresh and what's like mid-90s hip-hop sounds boring, even if it would have been considered good by 90s standards.
Nice evening
Hawkeye
Man... nice chop job on my words, edpowers. Primo would be proud!
Nobody was talking about you personally, although you obviously were offended (of course... somebody's always gonna get offended when somebody else offers an opposing point of view). I'm sure you'll get over it, though.
Yo, hommie, you can like or dislike whatever you want to, it's a-ight with me. My point is that the style of beats that were hot in the mid 90's are no longer seen as hot by most hip hop listeners today, so I believe that's why many people think that a lot of his current stuff "sucks ass". I think if much of this schitt came out at the height of Primo-mania the reaction to it would be a lot different. Just my opinion... I mean damn, urrbody else on here has the right to have one, so can't I have one too?
2) Phill - I hear what you're saying here but music is mercurial and so are our evolving tastes. I don't think Primo needs to change his style to be current with the times. I don't want ot hear him doing fuckin' crunk beats, ym? What I do want is for him to do something different from what he's been doing. I'm not asking for "contemporary". Just somethi8ng innovative. It's cool if Primo feels his style and doens't feel like he needs to change but I think it's also quite fair for those amongst us to say, "damn, Preem's boring now."
and i'd like to take MY OPINION a step further and say East Coast heads are stubborn...
never have and never will HONESTLY recognize anything other than BOOM BAP as 'real' hip hop beats and hold on to these washed up golden era producers like a pacifier
when the west ran hip hop the torch was never officially passed WITH RESPECT
and now that the South has ran hip hop for the past 5+ years half the east coast dudes think a dirty south classic is 'South Bronx'
and i'd like to take MY OPINION a step further and say East Coast heads are stubborn...
never have and never will HONESTLY recognize anything other than BOOM BAP as 'real' hip hop beats and hold on to these washed up golden era producers like a pacifier
when the west ran hip hop the torch was never officially passed WITH RESPECT
Not to turn into Archaic here but they really didn't respect anything but NY shit until Big smashed them all by incorporating other reigons styles in his records. None of these NY people were bowing down to Pac and all this other shit until they were forced to. The same thing has happened with the South. NY doesn't even have a sound at this point.
i didn't take it as a personal attack...not at all...but to say anyone who's not feeling those beats probably never really loved hip hop music as a whole was one helluva stretch and semi elitist...
i belive hip hop music is 'Youth Music' and is constantly changing/evolving and those who believe the music should have the same formula for 10-20 years without change/progress come across as stubborn old men see:Jazz
Oh, without a doubt. That's VERY understandable. Most of us here on Soulstrut have some knowledge of music history, and if you look back throughout the years music has NEVER stood still. It always evolves and people always want something new, especially as each new generation comes up. Truth be told, I think the sound of Hip Hop is pretty close to what the original sound was in comparison to how some other forms of music have changed drastically since inception. But even with that, Hip Hop has always, always, ALWAYS changed every few years- what's going on right now is not really anything all that new. So I totally expect the newer hip hop listeners to feel that what Primo's doing is dated. I'm just surprised when dudes who thought Premier could do no wrong in 95 or whenever now are not feeling ANYTHING that Preem is doing now, because IMO he has dropped some heaters in the past few years. Just off the top of my head I can think of the AZ, Tony Touch & Pitch Black beats that were bananas... the Big Shug ones I wouldn't say rank with Primo's best, but I certainly wouldn't say they "suck ass" either. But that's just me, I guess... I AM a grumpy old fuck, after all (and proud of it!).
not to mention a cut without an obvious sample. premier can rock synths apparantly. of course its already 4 years old. a sign that he is too stubborn to stray from his signature. but also a good sign that he could kill it if he reworked his style a little into the template of today's hip hop. The man must realise that you have to give up a little of the past, its 2005.
I mean I compare it to artists... Picasso went through stages and growth but when he foudn something that worked he was comfortable with he ran with it and didn't really vary too much. To me theya re similar because they created a signature style blew up with it and used that to help seperate themselves from the pack.
Do you really want to see Primo change his style up? I meanr eally attmept to? I have a feeling it would be kinda sad if he started at this point chasing whatever the hot style is at the moment. Plus every artist has slumps, ups and downs as noted by the Mickey Mantle reference. And seriously after revisiting the Ownerz the album continues to grow on me, but what do I know its not a crowd favorite so I probably shouldn't like it
And fuck a handclap that shit is way too overused right now.
I NEVER SAID THIS. Go back and read the words carefully. And try to UNDERSTAND what I'm saying without having the kind of kneejerk reaction that people usually have when they feel that they are being personally attacked.
You all right, Primo is boring. And yes, it is allowed to say. But we all have to accept that it HIS oppinion which music he is making, and it could be that our judgement on him will be something compeltly difrent in 10+ years from now.
There was a cover story in a German hiphop magazine about James Brown. The main topic throughout the article was that James is a legend, but his newest music is in no way relevant to todays music listeners. He tryed to stay on top by making music in a "modern" sound.
@ O Dub
I'm more into Mayfield and Gaye than into Coltrain. So Coltrain had his 12 years but you know that Gayes career was over 20 years and the same goes for Mayfield.
Peace
Hawkeye
I'd just be happy if he made beats I liked
Or at least: work with better rappers.
But back to Phill - his track for AZ (who is a good rapper) on "The Come Up" is just what I'm talking about. It's dull, sleepy. Ironically, he does scratches on "New York" on the same album but Emile comes with a track that's actual heat, even if it's just recycling some classic UBB shit.
is there anyone in here who thinks james brown didn't fall off?
Does making one bad album mean you "fell off"? Yes, the "Owners" was not the best Gangstarr effort, but that doesn't mean Primo is washed up. Plus, he just lost his main MC and is going through a lot of flux right now. It's hard to adjust to new conditions in a fast changing environment. He may be in some sort of artistic flux, where he needs to find his style and niche again. That must be difficult in the quick-paced landscape of hip-hop. With that said, I can relate to Primo in that I hate that keyboard, hand-clap shit too; however, as stubborn as I am, I try to do some more "mainstream" stuff (e.g., "Heavy-Hitter"). Plus, my mane E got me doing R&Bish stuff like "Black Girl" that was a SERIOUS creative stretch for a boom-bap cat like me. Primo needs a steady MC or so to help him crystallize an "evolved" sound. The same argument could go for Pete Rock as well. As producers, we've all probably went through periods where it's hard to get your creative bearings, but only time will tell.
Peace,
Big Stacks from Kakalak
maybe i took this the wrong way
as long as we can respect each other's opinions ..Saul Goode