Yeah, I agree. You know dude can fuck it up on some drums, but he sticks with pretty much the same sounds these days to the point where it gets you open when you hear him do something else. Hell, it was refreshing to hear him loop up the "Rapper Dapper Snapper" drums for "Skillz" just because it was something different (actually, the "Skillz" beat is just plain fresh).
Yeah, I agree. You know dude can fuck it up on some drums, but he sticks with pretty much the same sounds these days to the point where it gets you open when you hear him do something else. Hell, it was refreshing to hear him loop up the "Rapper Dapper Snapper" drums for "Skillz" just because it was something different (actually, the "Skillz" beat is just plain fresh).
but see, thats like saying lil john should start using dirty funk drum loops or something. Its just not him.
Im not particularly exited to hear anything else from primo either. but I respect the man still.
Man I totally agree, and I think it's interesting that being fundamentally a record collecting based forum, no one has really suggested that both Primo and Pete sound like they ran out of good records. A lot of these dudes aren't digging like they used to, it's obvious just by listening to thier music. It's like they had a slew of good records at one point and blew the load early on, only to never go digging again. That's why I wasn't feeling the second Black Sheep joint. It's like they used every dope sample they had on the first record. Digging for a hip hop producer is like a traditional musician keeping up his chops. These dudes are talented but the need to hit up the heatrock auctions and get some real shit to use...you can only chop up cameo records for so long Same goes for the beatnuts, tribe, etc etc etc. Dudes need to put in work in the bins like the strutters; if they want to get 15k+ for a beat they better be buying up them 300$ and up breaks no one has ever heard
You guys arent being fair. What do you want primo to sound like? Just blaze? I think just blaze has that covered.
Primo beats are tied to an era where the mc was expected to be the one dropping science. They're not complicated. Its just some boom bap shit for an mc to explode on.
I feel like these days the beat is basicly expected to carry most, if not all of the song. It makes for some great production, and its true that few people really care about lyricism anymore, but you cant listen to primo shit with that same standard.
Now I will certainly agree that he is probably past his prime. But c'mon! He had a good run. Id bet hes more focussed now on his family and shit. The big shug album was probably just a very old promise that he had to finally deliver on.
And by the way, Big Shug? Possibly the worst rapper Ive heard all year. Hearing his old ass trying to flip some pimp shit over some gutter primo beat is about the most inapropriate thing you could think of.
Old primo shit is still amazing to me. Even on moment of truth. Tracks like "better luck next time" and the shit with scarface? So hard.
Primo is legendary. And judging him on the basis of the big shug album is like Judging the rolling stones on the basis of that mick jagger and lenny krapitz tragedy.
Anyway, im tired of people talking about legendary producers like they are scrubs trying to get a placement on the new jim jones record or something. Just because you dont hear pete rock on the radio every day on some new ciara track doesnt mean hes wack now.
Nothing these dudes do now is ever going to take away from the fact that they are some of the best that ever did it.
Teach brother Teach! My question is....who are you guys feeling right now then?? I'm 27 and I believe Alchemist, Kanye, Just Blaze are all around the same age....other than them is there anyone younger perhaps bringing that heat??? Premier, Pete Rock, Show, Diamond, Buckwild (he is still dropping heat), Large Pro, Q-Tip, Dre,etc......these brothas really don't have anything to prove....they have done their part and helped build up hip hop. Its the younger generation that is failing from a musical standpoint.....
Hi Tek, Madlib, Jay Dee, Jake One, DJ Khalil, Nottz, MF Doom, Kev Brown, 9th (NC thing) are all
Man I totally agree, and I think it's interesting that being fundamentally a record collecting based forum, no one has really suggested that both Primo and Pete sound like they ran out of good records. A lot of these dudes aren't digging like they used to, it's obvious just by listening to thier music. It's like they had a slew of good records at one point and blew the load early on, only to never go digging again. That's why I wasn't feeling the second Black Sheep joint. It's like they used every dope sample they had on the first record. Digging for a hip hop producer is like a traditional musician keeping up his chops. These dudes are talented but the need to hit up the heatrock auctions and get some real shit to use...you can only chop up cameo records for so long Same goes for the beatnuts, tribe, etc etc etc. Dudes need to put in work in the bins like the strutters; if they want to get 15k+ for a beat they better be buying up them 300$ and up breaks no one has ever heard
T1 -
Quite true - but that syndrome of complacency isn't too hard to fall into; once they captured their acclaim, it's as if they elected to do everything by rote versus hungrily searching out new sounds to complement the stock sound banks they already have... Maybe the allure of hearing something that makes you stop and take notice, then excitedly brainstorm on how it potentially could be flipped no longer resonates as strongly for 'em?
Man I totally agree, and I think it's interesting that being fundamentally a record collecting based forum, no one has really suggested that both Primo and Pete sound like they ran out of good records. A lot of these dudes aren't digging like they used to, it's obvious just by listening to thier music. It's like they had a slew of good records at one point and blew the load early on, only to never go digging again. That's why I wasn't feeling the second Black Sheep joint. It's like they used every dope sample they had on the first record. Digging for a hip hop producer is like a traditional musician keeping up his chops. These dudes are talented but the need to hit up the heatrock auctions and get some real shit to use...you can only chop up cameo records for so long Same goes for the beatnuts, tribe, etc etc etc. Dudes need to put in work in the bins like the strutters; if they want to get 15k+ for a beat they better be buying up them 300$ and up breaks no one has ever heard
wow its a scientific proof for why most of soulstrut are better producers than primo and pete rock. nice.
but on the real, that's a good point--dudes get lazy when they get rich and you gotta believe the desire to go hang out in a flea market isn't that high for a dude that's paid like primo and pete.
but then again some of my favorite producers are gettin rich off obvious samples (just blaze, kanye) and I can't hate. it's a generation after gangstarr's heyday right now, and the kids today don't know marvin well enough to id the sample on "spaceship" or that shit that samples curtis on the new album.
maybe they *are* still puttin in work and it doesn't matter anymore. when so much of your hype is built around that "OH SHIT WHAT IS THAT LOOP" you got the first time you heard "the choice is yours," you're shit outta luck when that hype isn't the biggest thing anymore...
Man I totally agree, and I think it's interesting that being fundamentally a record collecting based forum, no one has really suggested that both Primo and Pete sound like they ran out of good records. A lot of these dudes aren't digging like they used to, it's obvious just by listening to thier music. It's like they had a slew of good records at one point and blew the load early on, only to never go digging again. That's why I wasn't feeling the second Black Sheep joint. It's like they used every dope sample they had on the first record. Digging for a hip hop producer is like a traditional musician keeping up his chops. These dudes are talented but the need to hit up the heatrock auctions and get some real shit to use...you can only chop up cameo records for so long Same goes for the beatnuts, tribe, etc etc etc. Dudes need to put in work in the bins like the strutters; if they want to get 15k+ for a beat they better be buying up them 300$ and up breaks no one has ever heard
I don't know about The Beatnuts? I think they still get their hands on some serious records. They just decided to go for the club sound so they don't sample like they used to, but they usually have a few sick beats on their LPs nowadays.
"Confused Rappers" is one of the few beats that I don't know the source for and would like to know about.
I don't buy the "they need to dig more" argument. I think that, to a certain extent, they've just been incapable of adapting. Folks like Primo and Pete Rock proved that they could make dope beats REGARDLESS of their record collection, not BECAUSE of their record collection. I mean shit, we all know people who are deep as hell but make super wack beats and then dudes who strictly cop dollar-binnies and make super hot stuff. I think it has a lot less to do with work-ethic or digging-effort than it does to do with the fact that they are either (a) out of touch and don't realize how dated the shit they make sounds or (b) simply aren't capable of up-dating their sound.
As far as I'm concerned, records are just instruments for producers. They don't make or break a producer.
I feel what you are saying. My thing is 1) dudes are legendary talented. 2) hip-hop, hasn't changed to the point where being out of touch means anything, there are tons of people worldwide that would love to here these dudes come with something musically interesting, even if it sounds like '92, '90, '89 whatever. Hip-hop production takes time though, and alot of stuff I've heard from these cats soudns like it didn't take any time. And the one thing in common with everything semi-new I've heard from alot of people I look up to and still respect is that the samples suck, regardless of how well they hook it up. Don't underestimate the ground these cats broke when they were using the good records (despite? are you serious?) - 3rd guitar, Melody Nelson, Rass, Cesar Frazier, Weldon Irvine, the list goes on and on of dumb rare records these producers were flipping and we loved it! And if they were to get some funky soulful music I have no doubt they could knock these newjack synthetic producers out the box in an instant. The question is how bad do they want it. Just my opinion...
I see Primo as ever-tightening his formula so that now it is just forms. Its like the loop got so tight that all the music was squeezed out of it.
I want to restate or reitterate. I think he got trapped in his own formula. And so to him, music just became about perfecting that formula. Listening to Primo now is kind of like the work Back was doing towards the end of his life. Almost strictly patterns that gave mathematical pleasures. I feel the same way about Primo's recent beats. There's nothing soft, feminine or chaotic about his beats now, just cold hard numbers and phallic kicks and snares. They're like non-euclidean geometry proofs.
As much as I dig that in an objective way, I wish Primo had shown us his more feminine, evolving and chaotic side. In a sense he has negelcted and denied his more feminine side as he has aged. As such, the opposite has come into his music, cold, hard logic. But, the man is a creative genius and I am sure he has got tons of shit in the archives that nobody is ready for.
Primo might be able to vastly update his sound by dropping--dare I say it--more synthetic sounding drums on his shit.
-e
I actually think he's done that. The Fat Joe/ MOP snare from the Ownerz? The drums on the ODB joint? To me, that's really just made his sound more sterile and boring. I just think Primo never really got the hang of synthesizers (though he tried) plus making a two bar loop and letting it ride for four minutes doesn't really cut it when your emcee is Big Shug.
That said, the CL joints on Soul Survivor II were dope, so was "Boston" with Ed OG and Surviving Elements had a number of very good songs on it. So I definitely wouldn't write Pete Rock off yet (Ghostface anyone?).
And if they were to get some funky soulful music I have no doubt they could knock these newjack synthetic producers out the box in an instant. The question is how bad do they want it. Just my opinion...
Part of the problem is what sounds funky now is not what sounded funky 10 years ago...
hmm. Funky's funky in my book. Ladies move thier ass AND the fellas feel it. that's why P-Funk still sells out the Greek. Funky doesn't outdate. it's a feeling.
I see Primo as ever-tightening his formula so that now it is just forms. Its like the loop got so tight that all the music was squeezed out of it.
I want to restate or reitterate. I think he got trapped in his own formula. And so to him, music just became about perfecting that formula. Listening to Primo now is kind of like the work Back was doing towards the end of his life. Almost strictly patterns that gave mathematical pleasures. I feel the same way about Primo's recent beats. There's nothing soft, feminine or chaotic about his beats now, just cold hard numbers and phallic kicks and snares. They're like non-euclidean geometry proofs.
As much as I dig that in an objective way, I wish Primo had shown us his more feminine, evolving and chaotic side. In a sense he has negelcted and denied his more feminine side as he has aged. As such, the opposite has come into his music, cold, hard logic. But, the man is a creative genius and I am sure he has got tons of shit in the archives that nobody is ready for.
So, generally speaking, his fans don't 'feel' his music. Like the music just doesn't move you...I see where you're going and I agree..
That said, the CL joints on Soul Survivor II were dope, so was "Boston" with Ed OG and Surviving Elements had a number of very good songs on it. So I definitely wouldn't write Pete Rock off yet (Ghostface anyone?).
hmm. Funky's funky in my book. Ladies move thier ass AND the fellas feel it. that's why P-Funk still sells out the Greek. Funky doesn't outdate. it's a feeling.
I'm just sayin- the funkiest rap records from the past year are TI, Webbie, Ying Yang Twins, Mike Jones... the ladies are shaking assessss and dudes are feeling it... where does Primo or Pete Rock fit in there? I'm not sure...
that said, I did like "Pop Shots" and I do think its fonky...
I see Primo as ever-tightening his formula so that now it is just forms. Its like the loop got so tight that all the music was squeezed out of it.
I want to restate or reitterate. I think he got trapped in his own formula. And so to him, music just became about perfecting that formula. Listening to Primo now is kind of like the work Back was doing towards the end of his life. Almost strictly patterns that gave mathematical pleasures. I feel the same way about Primo's recent beats. There's nothing soft, feminine or chaotic about his beats now, just cold hard numbers and phallic kicks and snares. They're like non-euclidean geometry proofs.
As much as I dig that in an objective way, I wish Primo had shown us his more feminine, evolving and chaotic side. In a sense he has negelcted and denied his more feminine side as he has aged. As such, the opposite has come into his music, cold, hard logic. But, the man is a creative genius and I am sure he has got tons of shit in the archives that nobody is ready for.
So, generally speaking, his fans don't 'feel' his music. Like the music just doesn't move you...I see where you're going and I agree..
I used to feel it the tracks. Now I just listen and admire the technique. Feeling is a feminine trait and in hiphop, it aint cool to be soft. Which is kind of a death certificate for any "artist" that wants to expand.
Also, its pretty hard to stay fresh when every producer has studied your whole style and reproduced every trick you've ever done.
wow its a scientific proof for why most of soulstrut are better producers than primo and pete rock. nice.
but on the real, that's a good point--dudes get lazy when they get rich and you gotta believe the desire to go hang out in a flea market isn't that high for a dude that's paid like primo and pete.
I think the whole "they don't dig anymore" is nonsense. Pete and Primo were never about raers when it came to their beats for the most part. Look at how many classics the two made off Ahmad Jamal only! Primo was using drums off ultimate breaks and beats during the greatest part of his career. He just had a sound and a way of doin his beats that people couldn't accurately bite. To me his sound has gone downhill since he started mixing and working on pro tools. More than anything the biters have ruined his style though. It technically easy to make a "primo" beat but there is a big difference between "kick in the door" and that wack M Boogie shit.
Pete is still spending crazy amounts of money on records like he always. The dope thing about Kanye, Dilla and Just Blaze is how they take regular ass records and make powerful slaps. I know when I got off the whole "super cratedigger" shit, I got a lot better as a producer. There is a big difference between record collectors and producers.
Since 2001 I interviewed Primo 4-5 Times. In 2001 I asked him about the reason for having signature drum sounds.
He asked me what I was meaning and I told him that everybody thinks that his drums are sounding always the same. He told me he is using always different drums, but he mixes them in a way that they sound all the same.
Same answer 9Th wonder had about his snare.
I also asked him about changing his style and he said there were no reason for him to change his style.
I asked the same questions the following years and he said he could understand the question, because everybody wants to know it, but he don???t want to change his style because he likes the gutter and grimey stuff he is doing.
Most of the stuff that???s out he don???t like.
I asked myself if it could be that he is not able to re-invent himself, and I came to the conclusion he is able, but he is not willing to do it.
So first of all I give him respect to having the balls to go HIS way, even if this is meaning we (the audience) have to go a different way.
But are we really gonna go a different way ??? Why is everybody hyped about Madlib, Jay Dee and 9 th Wonder and several other producers who are doing it in a Golden Era style ?? What is with Buckshot ?? What is with the beats on those G Unit and Game LP???s that have a straight loop, a 8th hihat and a bassdrum on the 1 + 3 off beat ??? What is with Salaam Remi and the things he did for Nas ?? What is with Missy and all the old school references ???? What is with the #1 Primoesque producer out there Alchemist ??
And why is everybody hating on Primo, Pete Rock, Large Pro, Lord Finesse, Show, Diamond D, Beatminers and if you want we can go on further with the MC???s from those days. Why is everybody hating on KRS these days ?? (even if everybody is happy to say he beat Nelly)
I came to exact 2 answers:
1.
Picking the right sample.
Primo had a hand for the right sample. In the payday era I could buy every record with the Premier name on it. It was dope as fuck. And even if he laced some beats in the following years that I didn???t like he always had more good than bad ones out.
But now, even if the sample based style is back, even if the 8th hihat boombap style is back and acepeted in the mainstream, he has lost the skill of choosing the right sample that I Like (and if I read your answers you feel the same) But this doesn???t man that he hates his own joints.
He said to me he is makeing wack beats too, but he is not playing it to people. He erases them. So everything we hear, he likes and he gives a shit about our opinion.
And for me doing music too I can understand that. I give a shit if people dig my stuff or not. First of all I have to love it.
This means that Mr.Premier and we others have a different taste when it comes to melodies and rhythms. And this is totally normal. A friend of mine loves P-Funk, me not. So what ??
So it is not about the production style he has to change (if this would be the reason than Alchemist must be out of order), he has to change back to our flava and taste of samples, or we have to follow him. Which brings me to the 2nd answer.
2.
Time will tell.
I???am a kid of the 80???s. I hated the music of the 80s. It was totally crap. When I started to dig records I ignored every record that was post 1979. No I love some of the 80s shit.
When I was 15 I went through the record collection of my mother. I took every record that I liked to sample and left the rest alone. 12 years later I went through here collection again and couldn???t believe what records I had left in here collection the last time.
When NWA came out, I hated them. The same goes for Wu Tang. Now I love them and own every record. We are changing through the time and so our taste and our opinion on topics and styles.
Look at Stezo. 15 years ago we laughed at him and ignored his LP. No everybody wants over 25 Bucks for this joint, and dont tell me it comes alone out of the Paul C hype. We idiots ignored this LP because he looked like a New Jack Swing dickhead.
We didnt listend close enough to his rhymes, and we dindt appreciate his Beats. And we all had the Ultramagnetic MC's and the Eric B & Rakim albums in our collection. We also ignored the Side FX album, now it is for me a classic. (Even without a Paul C beat)
Nobody is telling Bob Dylan to change his style, or The Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney or whatever. Primo is a classic, he is in a non-fuckable-range when it comes to all those producer who came after him. They all have to fullfill what he already did. So if I dont like a record he makes, I dont buy it. Thats all.
Peace
Hawkeye
P.S.
The last time I interviewed him was 6 weeks ago. There he told me he did 2 joints with Christina Aguliera, I'm very curious about those joints. This Interview was filmed and he also talked about the topic of this thread. When my webpage is working I'll post a link to this Interview.
Not to be an asshole, but it's telling that a European (presumably?) dude is one of the few folks sticking up for Primo's current sound. Regardless if he's capable of "updating" his sound or not, the fact of the matter remains that his sound simply isn't relevant in today's hip-hop. He was hugely influential and is definitely in any hip-hop Hall of Fame, but his sound has stopped being interesting to most everybody that still likes rap music.
How important is it if somebody is relevant or not ? On this baord we are talking the whole day about records that are not relevant, right ??? Most people on this planet dindt know shit about the records we are talking about. We are a bunch of nerds to them.
And whats the problem with me being European ??? You as an American (presumably?) maybe are thinking in terms of all the the Jazz artist that only could work in Europe to get some food, because they werent relevant in their own country in their times ????
Great responses all around - I've really enjoyed hearing people theorize on the issue. A few follow-ups:
1) Premier from "No More Mr. Nice Guy" through "Moment of Truth" (and any guest productions in between) was clearly a producer evolving his sound. Personally, I think "Hard to Earn" represented the plateau of that evolution in terms of his bag of tricks but it was refined and honed to perfection by "Moment of Truth." Shit like "Work," "Above the Clouds," "Militia," etc. all =
The problem is that Primo pretty much stopped changing up anything from this point (1997? '98?) and ever since, has just been recycling the same basic pattern of production over and over.
I actually think the comment that "Premier squeezed all the music out of his beats" is rather astute. The typical Preem track these days is really just a beat - his use of melodic loops has fallen way down. It's all stabs practically plus those same fucking drums he uses on every joint.
2) With what Thes was breaking down, I don't know if the issue is that Premier doesn't dig as much anymore (though I agree, I don't think he does) as it is that even if he is digging, he's just not fucking with loops as much as he used to. Therefore, you could play him some ridiculously hot shit and he'd chop a horn stab and that's about it. I think the "lack of digging" issue is more obvious with Pete Rock. His whole aesthetic is 100% dependent on the quality of his loops. He's not like a Kanye who obviously samples but also is a far more dedicated studio producer who brings a whole army of engineering and musicianship to the floor.
3) I wouldn't come up with a scientific equation over this but there's definitely some balance where "good beat + wack MC = weak beat" vs. "great beat + wack MC = still a good beat." See Just Blaze + Fat Joe for example. The problem on the Big Shug CD is that Shug is so damn near unlistenable that you could have laced him with "Safe 2 Say," "Crack Music," or "1 Thing" and he'd bring the beats down with him. Maybe something more like "Go Crazy" would have suited him but then I remember what Fat Joe sounded like over that Jeezy track and I changed my mind.
How important is it if somebody is relevant or not ? On this baord we are talking the whole day about records that are not relevant, right ??? Most people on this planet dindt know shit about the records we are talking about. We are a bunch of nerds to them.
And whats the problem with me being European ??? You as an American (presumably?) are maybe thinking in terms of that all the Jazz artist couls only work in europe to get some food, becuase they werent relevant in their own country in their times ????
Peace Hawkeye
It's not a "problem" that you're in Europe, but the very fact that you're European basically means that you probably expect different things from hip-hop. European hip-hop heads are rather notorious for up-holding the 4 elements and letting "real hip-hop" roam free and the 4-element-construction of hip-hop in America is, to a very large extent, dead. (Frankly, I have no problem with that "death." Hip-hop is moving and morphing and if the urban youth who dictate what hip-hop actually is aren't into breakdancing and graffiti, who am I to tell them that they should be?) But anyway, suffice it to say that this European definition of "real hip-hop" is still based on golden age standards which, if you listen to contemporary American hip-hop, are pretty irrelevant and outdated. The point is, hip-hop moves quickly from aesthetic to aesthetic and any aesthetic left in the wake of a new one rather quickly sounds dated. Hip-hop is youth music and it's appeal, to a large degree, is based on a certain sense of novelty (even if that "novelty" is making "old" shit "new" and "novel). So, primo just making shit that sounds like it's straight out of '98 isn't much fun to a lot of us because we've grown out of the context that produced that sound. After all the context is part of what made people like primo and buckwild and large p and pete rock sound so good in the first place. I mean, shit, "Masta IC" is one of my favorite beats of all time, but if that beat didn't come out a decade ago and instead came out today, I probably wouldn't bat an eye-lash at it. The point is, for a lot of us, our tastes have developed as hip-hop developed. Our tastes and expectations change and grow, so if the music doesn't, I don't think it's ridiculous for us to think that the music is boring or "irrelevant."
If you still find Primo's new shit good, that's fine and I'm happy for you. I'm just saying that my tastes have moved to a place that is much different than the aesthetic place that primo still chooses to occupy.
"Nobody is telling Bob Dylan to change his style, or The Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney or whatever."
Uh, Bob Dylan did change his style when he went electric. A lot of folks hated it but as Hawkeye notes, "time will tell," and most have vindcated Dylan's turn away from acoustic folk and into electric rock. The Beatles? C'mon dude, the Beatles' changed their style on every fucking album after "Revolver."
Did Coltrane rock the same style throughout his career? Marvin Gaye? Curtis Mayfield?
Primo? He's ridden the same style for 8 years now. This, "it's his style and he's sticking ot it, therefore he deserves respect" is, no offense, kind of bullshit to me. He's not being a purist - that's being either lazy or tapped out of ideas. Either way, hip hop producers don't deserve a free pass for painting themselves into a corner. The great artists of the last 100 years were people constantly playing with new ideas, to the point where sometimes, it drove them crazy: see Brian Wilson.
Someone like Dre has a career that's 20 years old now and while I think he has a one-note style at times, Dre circa 85, circa 90, circa 99, circa 2005 does not sound the same. But all these other early '90s producers we used to love: PR, Primo, Large Pro, Beatnuts, Beatminerz, etc. either didn't change enough or changed for the worse (see Beatminerz). I'm not always crazy about Buckwild's new stuff but I have to respect him for adapting to the times and still dropping crazy heat once in a while.
Comments
Yeah, I agree. You know dude can fuck it up on some drums, but he sticks with pretty much the same sounds these days to the point where it gets you open when you hear him do something else. Hell, it was refreshing to hear him loop up the "Rapper Dapper Snapper" drums for "Skillz" just because it was something different (actually, the "Skillz" beat is just plain fresh).
but see, thats like saying lil john should start using dirty funk drum loops or something. Its just not him.
Im not particularly exited to hear anything else from primo either. but I respect the man still.
Teach brother Teach! My question is....who are you guys feeling right now then?? I'm 27 and I believe Alchemist, Kanye, Just Blaze are all around the same age....other than them is there anyone younger perhaps bringing that heat??? Premier, Pete Rock, Show, Diamond, Buckwild (he is still dropping heat), Large Pro, Q-Tip, Dre,etc......these brothas really don't have anything to prove....they have done their part and helped build up hip hop. Its the younger generation that is failing from a musical standpoint.....
Hi Tek, Madlib, Jay Dee, Jake One, DJ Khalil, Nottz, MF Doom, Kev Brown, 9th (NC thing) are all
T1 -
Quite true - but that syndrome of complacency isn't too hard to fall into; once they captured their acclaim, it's as if they elected to do everything by rote versus hungrily searching out new sounds to complement the stock sound banks they already have... Maybe the allure of hearing something that makes you stop and take notice, then excitedly brainstorm on how it potentially could be flipped no longer resonates as strongly for 'em?
wow its a scientific proof for why most of soulstrut are better producers than primo and pete rock. nice.
but on the real, that's a good point--dudes get lazy when they get rich and you gotta believe the desire to go hang out in a flea market isn't that high for a dude that's paid like primo and pete.
but then again some of my favorite producers are gettin rich off obvious samples (just blaze, kanye) and I can't hate. it's a generation after gangstarr's heyday right now, and the kids today don't know marvin well enough to id the sample on "spaceship" or that shit that samples curtis on the new album.
maybe they *are* still puttin in work and it doesn't matter anymore. when so much of your hype is built around that "OH SHIT WHAT IS THAT LOOP" you got the first time you heard "the choice is yours," you're shit outta luck when that hype isn't the biggest thing anymore...
I don't know about The Beatnuts? I think they still get their hands on some serious records. They just decided to go for the club sound so they don't sample like they used to, but they usually have a few sick beats on their LPs nowadays.
"Confused Rappers" is one of the few beats that I don't know the source for and would like to know about.
but other than that, I think you're right.
As far as I'm concerned, records are just instruments for producers. They don't make or break a producer.
-e
Hip-hop production takes time though, and alot of stuff I've heard from these cats soudns like it didn't take any time. And the one thing in common with everything semi-new I've heard from alot of people I look up to and still respect is that the samples suck, regardless of how well they hook it up. Don't underestimate the ground these cats broke when they were using the good records (despite? are you serious?) - 3rd guitar, Melody Nelson, Rass, Cesar Frazier, Weldon Irvine, the list goes on and on of dumb rare records these producers were flipping and we loved it! And if they were to get some funky soulful music I have no doubt they could knock these newjack synthetic producers out the box in an instant. The question is how bad do they want it. Just my opinion...
I want to restate or reitterate. I think he got trapped in his own formula. And so to him, music just became about perfecting that formula. Listening to Primo now is kind of like the work Back was doing towards the end of his life. Almost strictly patterns that gave mathematical pleasures. I feel the same way about Primo's recent beats. There's nothing soft, feminine or chaotic about his beats now, just cold hard numbers and phallic kicks and snares. They're like non-euclidean geometry proofs.
As much as I dig that in an objective way, I wish Primo had shown us his more feminine, evolving and chaotic side. In a sense he has negelcted and denied his more feminine side as he has aged. As such, the opposite has come into his music, cold, hard logic. But, the man is a creative genius and I am sure he has got tons of shit in the archives that nobody is ready for.
These guys are old and tired- this is what happens to most musicians of most genres, no surprises here...
I actually think he's done that. The Fat Joe/ MOP snare from the Ownerz? The drums on the ODB joint? To me, that's really just made his sound more sterile and boring. I just think Primo never really got the hang of synthesizers (though he tried) plus making a two bar loop and letting it ride for four minutes doesn't really cut it when your emcee is Big Shug.
That said, the CL joints on Soul Survivor II were dope, so was "Boston" with Ed OG and Surviving Elements had a number of very good songs on it. So I definitely wouldn't write Pete Rock off yet (Ghostface anyone?).
Part of the problem is what sounds funky now is not what sounded funky 10 years ago...
I'm just sayin- the funkiest rap records from the past year are TI, Webbie, Ying Yang Twins, Mike Jones... the ladies are shaking assessss and dudes are feeling it... where does Primo or Pete Rock fit in there? I'm not sure...
that said, I did like "Pop Shots" and I do think its fonky...
My cereal bowl is empty. Time to get funky
I used to feel it the tracks. Now I just listen and admire the technique.
Feeling is a feminine trait and in hiphop, it aint cool to be soft. Which is kind of a death certificate for any "artist" that wants to expand.
Also, its pretty hard to stay fresh when every producer has studied your whole style and reproduced every trick you've ever done.
wow its a scientific proof for why most of soulstrut are better producers than primo and pete rock. nice.
but on the real, that's a good point--dudes get lazy when they get rich and you gotta believe the desire to go hang out in a flea market isn't that high for a dude that's paid like primo and pete.
I think the whole "they don't dig anymore" is nonsense. Pete and Primo were never about raers when it came to their beats for the most part. Look at how many classics the two made off Ahmad Jamal only! Primo was using drums off ultimate breaks and beats during the greatest part of his career. He just had a sound and a way of doin his beats that people couldn't accurately bite. To me his sound has gone downhill since he started mixing and working on pro tools. More than anything the biters have ruined his style though. It technically easy to make a "primo" beat but there is a big difference between "kick in the door" and that wack M Boogie shit.
Pete is still spending crazy amounts of money on records like he always. The dope thing about Kanye, Dilla and Just Blaze is how they take regular ass records and make powerful slaps. I know when I got off the whole "super cratedigger" shit, I got a lot better as a producer. There is a big difference between record collectors and producers.
He asked me what I was meaning and I told him that everybody thinks that his drums are sounding always the same. He told me he is using always different drums, but he mixes them in a way that they sound all the same.
Same answer 9Th wonder had about his snare.
I also asked him about changing his style and he said there were no reason for him to change his style.
I asked the same questions the following years and he said he could understand the question, because everybody wants to know it, but he don???t want to change his style because he likes the gutter and grimey stuff he is doing.
Most of the stuff that???s out he don???t like.
I asked myself if it could be that he is not able to re-invent himself, and I came to the conclusion he is able, but he is not willing to do it.
So first of all I give him respect to having the balls to go HIS way, even if this is meaning we (the audience) have to go a different way.
But are we really gonna go a different way ??? Why is everybody hyped about Madlib, Jay Dee and 9 th Wonder and several other producers who are doing it in a Golden Era style ?? What is with Buckshot ?? What is with the beats on those G Unit and Game LP???s that have a straight loop, a 8th hihat and a bassdrum on the 1 + 3 off beat ??? What is with Salaam Remi and the things he did for Nas ?? What is with Missy and all the old school references ???? What is with the #1 Primoesque producer out there Alchemist ??
And why is everybody hating on Primo, Pete Rock, Large Pro, Lord Finesse, Show, Diamond D, Beatminers and if you want we can go on further with the MC???s from those days. Why is everybody hating on KRS these days ?? (even if everybody is happy to say he beat Nelly)
I came to exact 2 answers:
1.
Picking the right sample.
Primo had a hand for the right sample. In the payday era I could buy every record with the Premier name on it. It was dope as fuck. And even if he laced some beats in the following years that I didn???t like he always had more good than bad ones out.
But now, even if the sample based style is back, even if the 8th hihat boombap style is back and acepeted in the mainstream, he has lost the skill of choosing the right sample that I Like (and if I read your answers you feel the same) But this doesn???t man that he hates his own joints.
He said to me he is makeing wack beats too, but he is not playing it to people. He erases them. So everything we hear, he likes and he gives a shit about our opinion.
And for me doing music too I can understand that. I give a shit if people dig my stuff or not. First of all I have to love it.
This means that Mr.Premier and we others have a different taste when it comes to melodies and rhythms. And this is totally normal. A friend of mine loves P-Funk, me not. So what ??
So it is not about the production style he has to change (if this would be the reason than Alchemist must be out of order), he has to change back to our flava and taste of samples, or we have to follow him. Which brings me to the 2nd answer.
2.
Time will tell.
I???am a kid of the 80???s. I hated the music of the 80s. It was totally crap. When I started to dig records I ignored every record that was post 1979. No I love some of the 80s shit.
When I was 15 I went through the record collection of my mother. I took every record that I liked to sample and left the rest alone. 12 years later I went through here collection again and couldn???t believe what records I had left in here collection the last time.
When NWA came out, I hated them. The same goes for Wu Tang. Now I love them and own every record. We are changing through the time and so our taste and our opinion on topics and styles.
Look at Stezo. 15 years ago we laughed at him and ignored his LP. No everybody wants over 25 Bucks for this joint, and dont tell me it comes alone out of the Paul C hype. We idiots ignored this LP because he looked like a New Jack Swing dickhead.
We didnt listend close enough to his rhymes, and we dindt appreciate his Beats. And we all had the Ultramagnetic MC's and the Eric B & Rakim albums in our collection. We also ignored the Side FX album, now it is for me a classic. (Even without a Paul C beat)
Nobody is telling Bob Dylan to change his style, or The Rolling Stones, Paul McCartney or whatever. Primo is a classic, he is in a non-fuckable-range when it comes to all those producer who came after him.
Peace
Hawkeye
P.S.
The last time I interviewed him was 6 weeks ago. There he told me he did 2 joints with Christina Aguliera, I'm very curious about those joints. This Interview was filmed and he also talked about the topic of this thread. When my webpage is working I'll post a link to this Interview.
-e
And whats the problem with me being European ??? You as an American (presumably?) maybe are thinking in terms of all the the Jazz artist that only could work in Europe to get some food, because they werent relevant in their own country in their times ????
Peace
Hawkeye
1) Premier from "No More Mr. Nice Guy" through "Moment of Truth" (and any guest productions in between) was clearly a producer evolving his sound. Personally, I think "Hard to Earn" represented the plateau of that evolution in terms of his bag of tricks but it was refined and honed to perfection by "Moment of Truth." Shit like "Work," "Above the Clouds," "Militia," etc. all =
The problem is that Primo pretty much stopped changing up anything from this point (1997? '98?) and ever since, has just been recycling the same basic pattern of production over and over.
I actually think the comment that "Premier squeezed all the music out of his beats" is rather astute. The typical Preem track these days is really just a beat - his use of melodic loops has fallen way down. It's all stabs practically plus those same fucking drums he uses on every joint.
2) With what Thes was breaking down, I don't know if the issue is that Premier doesn't dig as much anymore (though I agree, I don't think he does) as it is that even if he is digging, he's just not fucking with loops as much as he used to. Therefore, you could play him some ridiculously hot shit and he'd chop a horn stab and that's about it. I think the "lack of digging" issue is more obvious with Pete Rock. His whole aesthetic is 100% dependent on the quality of his loops. He's not like a Kanye who obviously samples but also is a far more dedicated studio producer who brings a whole army of engineering and musicianship to the floor.
3) I wouldn't come up with a scientific equation over this but there's definitely some balance where "good beat + wack MC = weak beat" vs. "great beat + wack MC = still a good beat." See Just Blaze + Fat Joe for example. The problem on the Big Shug CD is that Shug is so damn near unlistenable that you could have laced him with "Safe 2 Say," "Crack Music," or "1 Thing" and he'd bring the beats down with him. Maybe something more like "Go Crazy" would have suited him but then I remember what Fat Joe sounded like over that Jeezy track and I changed my mind.
4) I put up three Big Shug tracks to illustrate:
On the Record http://o-dub.com/temp/shug1.mp3
Sic a Ni99as http://o-dub.com/temp/shug2.mp3
Take It Back http://o-dub.com/temp/shug3.mp3
The first two are obviously Primo, the third is not.
Discuss.
the third track is emabarassing.
It's not a "problem" that you're in Europe, but the very fact that you're European basically means that you probably expect different things from hip-hop. European hip-hop heads are rather notorious for up-holding the 4 elements and letting "real hip-hop" roam free and the 4-element-construction of hip-hop in America is, to a very large extent, dead. (Frankly, I have no problem with that "death." Hip-hop is moving and morphing and if the urban youth who dictate what hip-hop actually is aren't into breakdancing and graffiti, who am I to tell them that they should be?) But anyway, suffice it to say that this European definition of "real hip-hop" is still based on golden age standards which, if you listen to contemporary American hip-hop, are pretty irrelevant and outdated. The point is, hip-hop moves quickly from aesthetic to aesthetic and any aesthetic left in the wake of a new one rather quickly sounds dated. Hip-hop is youth music and it's appeal, to a large degree, is based on a certain sense of novelty (even if that "novelty" is making "old" shit "new" and "novel). So, primo just making shit that sounds like it's straight out of '98 isn't much fun to a lot of us because we've grown out of the context that produced that sound. After all the context is part of what made people like primo and buckwild and large p and pete rock sound so good in the first place. I mean, shit, "Masta IC" is one of my favorite beats of all time, but if that beat didn't come out a decade ago and instead came out today, I probably wouldn't bat an eye-lash at it. The point is, for a lot of us, our tastes have developed as hip-hop developed. Our tastes and expectations change and grow, so if the music doesn't, I don't think it's ridiculous for us to think that the music is boring or "irrelevant."
If you still find Primo's new shit good, that's fine and I'm happy for you. I'm just saying that my tastes have moved to a place that is much different than the aesthetic place that primo still chooses to occupy.
-e
WHO'S GOT THAT SOULMAN "DOWN" mp3?[/b]
I need something to cheer me up.
Uh, Bob Dylan did change his style when he went electric. A lot of folks hated it but as Hawkeye notes, "time will tell," and most have vindcated Dylan's turn away from acoustic folk and into electric rock. The Beatles? C'mon dude, the Beatles' changed their style on every fucking album after "Revolver."
Did Coltrane rock the same style throughout his career?
Marvin Gaye?
Curtis Mayfield?
Primo? He's ridden the same style for 8 years now. This, "it's his style and he's sticking ot it, therefore he deserves respect" is, no offense, kind of bullshit to me. He's not being a purist - that's being either lazy or tapped out of ideas. Either way, hip hop producers don't deserve a free pass for painting themselves into a corner. The great artists of the last 100 years were people constantly playing with new ideas, to the point where sometimes, it drove them crazy: see Brian Wilson.
Someone like Dre has a career that's 20 years old now and while I think he has a one-note style at times, Dre circa 85, circa 90, circa 99, circa 2005 does not sound the same. But all these other early '90s producers we used to love: PR, Primo, Large Pro, Beatnuts, Beatminerz, etc. either didn't change enough or changed for the worse (see Beatminerz). I'm not always crazy about Buckwild's new stuff but I have to respect him for adapting to the times and still dropping crazy heat once in a while.