What happened to Primo? Or us?

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  • drewnicedrewnice 5,465 Posts
    I'm more into Mayfield and Gaye than into Coltrain. So Coltrain had his 12 years but you know that Gayes career was over 20 years and the same goes for Mayfield.



    Peace

    Hawkeye




    Did someone say Mayfield?



    Just popping my head...







    LATER!

  • [quoteI GUARANTEE that if that schitt came out during his heyday I would've had a gang of kids e-mailing me wanting to know what he sampled for that beat.
    So, Mr Soulman, do you know what the sample is?????

    I need to know!

  • Speaking of Primo... Anyone hear that Smooth B track, "Game Over" produced by the man we're talking 'bout.... In 2005 - I'm mos-definitely feelin it.....! Smooth B's rhymes are a little sub-par but dude still sounds ill over a premo track...

  • RaystarRaystar 1,106 Posts
    I still love dude... I just dont really care for that snare drum with no highs thing he got going on...

    Preme has a two bar melody, with a one or two bar beat formula that is a little tired sometimes but its classic math...

  • faux_rillzfaux_rillz 14,343 Posts

    Now, let me ask you this, O-Dub (and you too, Faux... you're always good for an entertaining comment)- do you think that it is even humanly possible for Primo to make a beat in the style that he's famous for that you would like in 2005, or do you think that it's so played to death that he has no choice but to come up with a newly modified style? I know, I know, Faux... "his only possible option is to bow out gracefully while he still has a miniscule shred of respect left".

    Ha!

    Maybe if he was still working with the caliber of MCs that he used to attract, he could put out something in that vein that would still manage to hold my interest. Somebody like Jay can do a lot to make an otherwise boring track sound interesting. But Primo doing the same thing he's been doing for the past decade with Big Shug or Pitch Black rhyming over it is just not some schitt I have time for.

  • Serious - Its like when dope MC's work with horrible producers, i.e.: Nas, Snoop, BDK... Dope on the mic but lag beats so many times... And I dig collabo's! Fugg it, I'd even be curious to hear some Paul Wall over a Primo track and that'll catch some attention. I'm not even a PW fan but still.....

  • Just wanted to ask if anyone here has heard "The Excorcist" by Lil Vic produced by Premier? It's straight fire in my opinion, but what do I know? I'm just an old hip hop dude! Lol. Also, please believe Pete rock still diggs for records, in fact more now then ever. If someone can please post a link to that Lil Vic track, do so!!!!

    yo supreme,

    here's that little vic track .

  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    I think one of the main things that separates NYC boom bap hip hop and stuff from the south and the west is that alot of folks in NYC listen to shit on headphones. While in the south and the west shit has to bang in the trunk.


    Primo has a consistant minimalist sound that is his signiture and while some of it doesnt sound as revolutionary today, i doubt everyone will still think every neptunes beat is bangin in 10 years.......make that 5 years even.


    I just dont like the whole "stick a fork in primo...hes done" type attitude.Primo is a legendary producer and always will be. Regardless of how many crappy big shug albums he puts out.


    B,

    Suggesting that Primo isn't that relevant - or, you know good - right now doesn't diminish his legacy or legend. But c'mon, just because someone made incredible music ten years ago doesn't mean we have to, on principle, think his tracks still burn.


    no. and im not saying they do. I just think people are harsh on dude alot of the time. I know no one is checking for him anymore, myself included.

    But I can still say thanks for the memories! Mabye someone should do a appreciation thread so we can balance this out a bit.


  • Is this really a "We hate primo" thread....? I just thought it was about whether or not his beats are as dope as they were...? As I recall, this thread started off by O' askin questions...

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    Somebody like Jay can do a lot to make an otherwise boring track sound interesting. But Primo doing the same thing he's been doing for the past decade with Big Shug or Pitch Black rhyming over it is just not some schitt I have time for.

    What he said.

    Phill: I am not remotely saying that Primo isn't capable of making some joint that will leave me all looking

    However, my original point in even posting this was that I haven't heard anything in that ballpark in at least two years and it's striking to me that Primo could go from The Man to Nowhere Man in that time. Surfacing to do middle-of-the-road beats for Big Shug and Pitch Black is not exactly how to keep your name out in the streets.


  • BrianBrian 7,618 Posts
    i think dude would kill if he made tracks for tv shows and movies

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts

    @ O Dub

    I'm more into Mayfield and Gaye than into Coltrain. So Coltrain had his 12 years but you know that Gayes career was over 20 years and the same goes for Mayfield.


    Yeah and those dudes constantly changed up their styles over the course of their careers. Look at Gaye between "What's Going On" to "Sexual Healing." You've got like...four or five reinventions right there, with every album. To me, Primo stopped really advancing in any meaningful way after "Moment of Truth." He's used the same formula on practically every trakc (with a few exceptions) for the last eight years. It's a testament to his name that he's stayed, doing work, for eight years. That's longer than most cats' entire career. But from my point of view, it's been eight years of diminishing returns.

    Just to be clear: I don't think Primo is wack.

    However, I personally don't accept the "well, Premier makes the beats he wants to make" argument. I respect artists for having their vision and sticking to it. But that doesn't mean that I - as a consumer, as a DJ, as a critic, whatever - have to like/support it. If Preem wanted to put his sampler out to pasture and just play sitar music all day long, I could respect his decision as an artist but I'm not remotely obligated to say, "wow, his music is really cool."

  • i just realized (sp) that O-dub is BIG SHUG as the catalyst for a "is primo wack?" thread.


    even in his "prime"....snicker.....dude was ass. He guest verse on Group Home's album was just as bad as any Melachi the NutCracker verse

    something about

    bounce you off the walls like super balls


    AY YO!


    and yeah man Primo fell off. Pete can still come with some good beats though but it's pretty un-fucking-fair we except dude to slam out "TROY" or "For Pete's Sake" every time....and no i'm not on some "cut him some slack he's Pete" or whatever.....



  • However, my original point in even posting this was that I haven't heard anything in that ballpark in at least two years and it's striking to me that Primo could go from The Man to Nowhere Man in that time. Surfacing to do middle-of-the-road beats for Big Shug and Pitch Black is not exactly how to keep your name out in the streets.






    Well, I must reiterate, O- what the streets want in 2005 is just not the same as it was in Primo's heyday. That's all that it is, it's not that Primo is not making any dope beats anymore. People seem to be confusing this- we're talking about music here, not something you wear on your back. My feeling is that if music is good, it's good- whether the trend-loving public sees it as being fashionable at the moment or not. Unless the streets decide that they're tired of what's been poppin' lately and decide to go back to loving that boom bap (doesn't seem likely), Primo's name is not gonna be out in the streets anymore. But because the streets don't love it doesn't mean that it's wack, and because the streets do love it doesn't mean that it's really good. The streets have gone crazy over some wack ass shit at times during my 27 years of following hip hop / rap. I tell people this all the time and a lot of folls don't believe me, but Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice Baby" was the SCHITT in the streets when it first hit! And I feel pretty sure that time is not gonna look back very fondly on some of the recent hits that have been killin' 'em in the skreets lately.



    Believe me, I know what you mean about Preem not changing up his drum sounds and patterns enough, similar chops on a lot of his beats and always scratching vocals in on the hooks- it has gotten predictable and all. But personally, I don't care- the fact that few people are coming with a traditional hip hop sound anymore probably makes me appreciate what Premier does now even more than I did ten years ago. What can I say, I'm holding on to what's golden.





    "Yeah, this may just be some old useless schitt to you, but it's EVERYTHING to me. Ya dig?"




  • kennykenny 1,024 Posts
    i actually understand and agree with you Phill, for the first time.

  • HAZHAZ 3,376 Posts
    All I know is I saw Primo in a music video with Pauli Shore, Method Man & Limp Bizket.



    That could have been a good line up for the next installment of the surreal life.




  • i actually understand and agree with you Phill, for the first time.

    Kenny- you mean to tell me you have never evar understood or agreed with me before? For shame. I'm glad to see that you have finally come to your senses.

  • kennykenny 1,024 Posts
    disagree ? not many times actually

    didn't understand ? YES. big time...me bad engrish ya know ?

  • >> To me, Primo stopped really advancing in any meaningful way after "Moment of >>Truth." He's used the same formula on practically every trakc (with a few >>exceptions) for the last eight years.

    To be exact, he rocked this style for a lot of independent singles 1-2 years before the Moment of Truth came out. So he is doing it for round about 10 years. And yes, it is boring, and yes, it would be good for him to change up his style.

    Instead of defending him over and over again, maybe there is light at the end of the tunel. He told me in the interview that he recorded a lot the last 18 month and all the stuff will be coming out next year (You know the game it will come in 2007) MAybe there are some new styles coming (I doubt it but hope is the last thing that dies).


    >>However, I personally don't accept the "well, Premier makes the beats he wants to >>make" argument. I respect artists for having their vision and sticking to it. But >>that doesn't mean that I - as a consumer, as a DJ, as a critic, whatever - have to >>like/support it. If Preem wanted to put his sampler out to pasture and just play >>sitar music all day long, I could respect his decision as an artist but I'm not >>remotely obligated to say, "wow, his music is really cool."

    Thats what I said, personally as a fan I'm not going nuts about his stuff anymore.

    Peace
    Hawkeye

  • SwayzeSwayze 14,705 Posts
    from somebody that knows him personally i have to agree. i myself have talked to him. he does not want to change. i really don't think he could care less what people think. he's doing what he wants. like it or not he still is making alot of money from what he does. i know some dj's from back in the day that still make 10,000 to 20,000 for a mini tour. as you know probably not here in the u.s. but they do and i think always will have a fan base. pete rock,showbiz, and so forth will always for the most part have work all the time. i don't think they will ever go gold or platinum by themselves but will have a steady flow of cash. being independent is the best thing for them right now. majors are not feeling them right now. making way for the new school of producers. but i agree with the fact that he should change up with the times but i really don't think he will. i suggest to maybe get his studio and production company to include new up and coming producers and artists to join his team. always be on the look out for new talent. he's got so many avenues at his disposal it ain't even funny. cat can almost walk into any label and at least get a meeting set up. i know for a fact that he turned down a couple of offers from some majors. was big money but did not want to sign because he didn't feel the offers were enough. sometimes you have to use your common sense. but to each his own. i would have done it different.

  • emyndemynd 830 Posts
    I think I'm just arguing semantics here, but I take a bit of an issue with the statement that the listeners have changed. Fundamentally, I think it's slightly imprecise to insist that the listeners have changed. More to the point, I think the context for listening to this shit HAS changed. The argument that "art is good regardless of context" is a bit idealistic and unrealistic. Look at David Axelrod shit. His music isn't good because it's "timeless." We think it's good because it sounds remarkably like hip-hop! Let's say that magically, Shakespeare lived for 500 years and was still writing today, but still using stereotypically Shakespearean language like "thee," "'ere," etc, etc. Of course, I'm exaggerating for effect, but I don't think it'd be ridiculous for us to criticize him for writing in a style of outdated English that was no longer innovative, interesting, or particularly relevant. Extend that metaphor for Primo.

    I think it's pretty important to realize that there can be no real appreciation for any music outside of some sort of context[/b] and, thus, for most of us, Primo's new shit--in the context of what's going on today--is just flat out boring and uninspiring.

    To me it's all context, context, context. Music doesn't exist in a vaccuum. There's a reason KPM and Axelrod records were relatively unheralded for twenty years before hip-hop came along and that reason is context.

    -e





  • You generalize like Europeans expect Americans to generalize. The reason why (non-current) American artists are so quick to point out how Euro heads are so appreciative of "real hip hop" is for the simple fact that for many it's their first time seeing a De La Soul or a Lord Finesse live. And that 4 element, unity stuff? Yeah, I saw some of that on German MTV 5+ years ago. Nowadays it's mostly kids in 3XL white tees trying to look/ sound like Dipset or the types who could care less about graffiti.

    i'd love to hear some Europeans biting Dipsets style. mp3 please!

  • I think I'm just arguing semantics here, but I take a bit of an issue with the statement that the listeners have changed. Fundamentally, I think it's slightly imprecise to insist that the listeners have changed. More to the point, I think the context for listening to this shit HAS changed. The argument that "art is good regardless of context" is a bit idealistic and unrealistic. Look at David Axelrod shit. His music isn't good because it's "timeless." We think it's good because it sounds remarkably like hip-hop! Let's say that magically, Shakespeare lived for 500 years and was still writing today, but still using stereotypically Shakespearean language like "thee," "'ere," etc, etc. Of course, I'm exaggerating for effect, but I don't think it'd be ridiculous for us to criticize him for writing in a style of outdated English that was no longer innovative, interesting, or particularly relevant. Extend that metaphor for Primo.

    I think it's pretty important to realize that there can be no real appreciation for any music outside of some sort of context[/b] and, thus, for most of us, Primo's new shit--in the context of what's going on today--is just flat out boring and uninspiring.

    To me it's all context, context, context. Music doesn't exist in a vaccuum. There's a reason KPM and Axelrod records were relatively unheralded for twenty years before hip-hop came along and that reason is context.

    -e

    Yeah, I think you are arguing semantics. Of course the listeners have changed. When you hear people saying that Primo needs to change his style up to stay relevant, what does that mean? That means that he's DOING THE SAME THING THAT HE'S BEEN DOING and people have grown tired of it and want to hear something different. It doesn't mean that he's gotten wack, it just means that people have moved on, as they always do. Whether you are one of those who still think that sound is dope or think that it's now boring or uninspiring is up to you as an individual. You can't help how you feel about music anymore than Primo can help how he feels about it.

    My personal feeling is that people who truly love that traditional hip hop sound just do not get tired of it so easily, because it is a part of who we are. I cannot help but believe that most dudes who have such a cavalier attitude about it, like "ehh, it was cool back then but it's just not in style anymore" are not truly lovers of what we know as real hip hop. I'm sure this is gonna piss a lot of people off, but it shouldn't- I don't mean it as a dis. We all are what we are, whatever we are. I'm sure a lot of it does have to do with age, I don't deny that at all. But it still is what it is. I don't know why a person who's into what's poppin' today would even care about what is or isn't real hip hop.

    But anyway, I've said enough so I'll stop beating up on this dead horse. You guys can continue the Primo bashing, or you can bash me and my views if you like. It's saul goode, I still love y'all. Everybody's entitled to their opinion (this is america, ain't it? where can I be?). I'm gonna continue riding with my dog Primo and his boring beats to the bitter end, carrying those torches. Anything less would be total fakeness on my part.




  • BsidesBsides 4,244 Posts
    from somebody that knows him personally i have to agree. i myself have talked to him. he does not want to change. i really don't think he could care less what people think. he's doing what he wants. like it or not he still is making alot of money from what he does. i know some dj's from back in the day that still make 10,000 to 20,000 for a mini tour. as you know probably not here in the u.s. but they do and i think always will have a fan base. pete rock,showbiz, and so forth will always for the most part have work all the time. i don't think they will ever go gold or platinum by themselves but will have a steady flow of cash. being independent is the best thing for them right now. majors are not feeling them right now. making way for the new school of producers. but i agree with the fact that he should change up with the times but i really don't think he will. i suggest to maybe get his studio and production company to include new up and coming producers and artists to join his team. always be on the look out for new talent. he's got so many avenues at his disposal it ain't even funny. cat can almost walk into any label and at least get a meeting set up. i know for a fact that he turned down a couple of offers from some majors. was big money but did not want to sign because he didn't feel the offers were enough. sometimes you have to use your common sense. but to each his own. i would have done it different.


    does he have a team that he works with? I never really heard about it.


    But good for dude. Preemo is the man, and if he changed his style, more people would probably be upset than would be happy.

    I would like to see him do something crazy for the next nas record. But thats probably not happening either.


  • DubiousDubious 1,865 Posts
    This has crossed my mind several times and from a MUSICAL stand point i think artists do need to change it up (not completely) but damn explore/fuck around - change it up even if its "jus' a lil bit." Like with "Mass Appeal", I read in interviews that Premier was messin' around to make that beat more "radio friendly" and shit turned out to be one of their most known songs.



    from a strickly musical point of view i completely agee, artists need to explore / try new things.. that's part of what being an artist is in my opinion. A craftsman perfects his techniques and sticks with them. A true artist challenges themselves with each project, often moving in unpredictable and novel new directions.

    i think what happens is alot of artists start off perfecting their craft. thus they have a period of noticable growth and advancement, typically reaching a plateau where it all comes together. at this point they are presented with the option of learning new skills and keeping it moving in new directions, or sticking with the skills they've acquired and working within their comfort zone.

    now with primo and the topic at hand i think there's a few matters at play here.

    one is technology. Obviously the technology that was the norm in primo's heyday is starting to become less the industry standard. More production is handled in a DAW type situation. If primo continues to work with the old technology MPC's and what not then he intentionally limits his options to what's available within that peace of gear.

    another aspect is how he makes music. Namely cutting samples and loops. Taking mass appeal as a nice example. This is probably one of my favorite hip hop beats of all time... but you listen to the instro and im sorry but that loop gets boring really fast. there's just no developement WHATSOEVER. It doesnt mean the track is bad, but its SO simplistic. It's like the Kingsmen with Louie Louie. shit is so easy anybody can do it. At the same time nobody did it quite like that, and to repeat the results is nigh on impossible. And that to me is the root of the problem. We're talking about advancing / progreessing within an intentionaly limited / simplistic format. Frankly i think its amazing that primo was able to be as creative as he has been considering how limited his format is.

    i think another issue hear is the differance between producing a record and making beats. Primo makes beats, Dre is a record producer.

    a guy like Dre has a much broader skill set to draw from. He's got a crack team of enigineers, session cats, beat makers etc. Thus he can change in a more plastic organic manner. A guy like primo is alone in the room staring at his mpc screen.

    obviously you can produce records using the primo method, but it seems inevitable that you'll run out of tricks a whole lot faster than using the Dre style.







  • My personal feeling is that people who truly love that traditional hip hop sound just do not get tired of it so easily, because it is a part of who we are. I don't know why a person who's into what's poppin' today would even care about what is or isn't real hip hop.

    I'm gonna continue riding with my dog Primo and his boring beats to the bitter end, carrying those torches. Anything less would be total fakeness on my part.





    You pretty much summed up my feelings on this post Phill....

    Premier's music will live forever just likes roaches, never dying always living!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • DORDOR Two Ron Toe 9,896 Posts
    This might get clowned. But I wouldn't mind a few more Primo & "Insert R&B singer here" tracks.



    D'Angelo, Janet, Devin, Craig David, etc type stuff I liked...



    And I would think, you would rate a man with what he's done over his whole career, rather than what has come over the last couple of years. Very few in the game can even come close. The man has made "CLASSICS" that will still be listened to well into the future. Not a couple of hot tracks out right now, that no one will even remember a few years from now. There's a huge difference between a "HOT" and "Classic" track IMO. One is hard enough. Try doing 20+ IMO Primo has done both.



    I don't ever want the man to stop making beats. You have to think about the man's potential and what he is capable of doing. He has proven himself to me anyways, that he is a workhorse for making dope productions. But yes to maybe picking better MC's than he has in the past few years. I fully agree.



    A lot of Neptune???s production sounds the same. Everyone knows that. Doesn't stop them from doing what they do best. Nor should it. If it's HOT, people will buy/listen to it no matter what. In the beginning, they had people going nuts with some of their stuff. When "In search of" snuck out over a year before it was released, a lot of people couldn't feel it. Once the hype built up and other hits followed, so many people I knew that hated on that record, turned around and fucking couldn't stop talking about it. I don't care what version of the album you wanna talk about. Did time make the album any better? IMO no...



    Everyone has different taste. And for most, it's always changing. Just keep listening to what makes "YOUR" head bounce and not worry about the guy beside you. Everything is gonna be alright...







    I'd like to see a top ten fav preem beats list up in here from you guys...

  • This thread is dead.

    If you wanna hear some european modern styles check out the following dude at myspace.com

    His name is Brisk Fingaz, he is an up and coming producer here in Germany. Right now you can hear his passion for dipset-like beats. But read what he says what his influences are. Oh fuck !!!!

    http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=19354183&Mytoken=ED21C1B7-C27C-42B1-948657FDAAEEDD04146451000


    Peace
    Hawkeye

  • I cannot help but believe that most dudes who have such a cavalier attitude about it, like "ehh, it was cool back then but it's just not in style anymore" are not truly lovers of what we know as real hip hop. I'm sure this is gonna piss a lot of people off


    Totally off, but rather than bash you I'll just continue to discuss...

    I personally continue to love what you know as real hip-hop. I don't like what Primo does, or stuff like it, so much these days because it CANNOT be done better than it already was. There will never be records like Mecca & The Soul Brother, like Business As Usual, like A Future Without A Past... again. I would rather let that be, as the best shit that ever was made using those techniques, than continue to rehash it and "beat a dead horse" as you say. That's just my opinion - it's by no means gospel. But when I hear a Primo beat of today, I don't hear him still doing the shit that blew my top years ago - I hear him trying to do the same shit that blew my top years ago, and it just not working as well. Production is many times more than just the drum sequence or sample; perhaps it is that intangible shit that's missing. Maybe it's the MC. I don't know. But you can't say with a straight face that Primo's made anything in the last five years that is touching his work on Daily Operation, or Sun Rises In The East, or Livin Proof.

    Yes, I do think the style itself has gotten old, but that's not 'cause I don't love those records - it's 'cause I can't stand to hear people (including the creators of those records) continue to ape and rehash themselves to the point where the original brilliance of it is diminished. Why would I listen to The Ownerz when I can listen to Hard To Earn...

  • I cannot help but believe that most dudes who have such a cavalier attitude about it, like "ehh, it was cool back then but it's just not in style anymore" are not truly lovers of what we know as real hip hop. I'm sure this is gonna piss a lot of people off


    Totally off, but rather than bash you I'll just continue to discuss...

    I personally continue to love what you know as real hip-hop. I don't like what Primo does, or stuff like it, so much these days because it CANNOT be done better than it already was. There will never be records like Mecca & The Soul Brother, like Business As Usual, like A Future Without A Past... again. I would rather let that be, as the best shit that ever was made using those techniques, than continue to rehash it and "beat a dead horse" as you say. That's just my opinion - it's by no means gospel. But when I hear a Primo beat of today, I don't hear him still doing the shit that blew my top years ago - I hear him trying to do the same shit that blew my top years ago, and it just not working as well. Production is many times more than just the drum sequence or sample; perhaps it is that intangible shit that's missing. Maybe it's the MC. I don't know. But you can't say with a straight face that Primo's made anything in the last five years that is touching his work on Daily Operation, or Sun Rises In The East, or Livin Proof.

    Yes, I do think the style itself has gotten old, but that's not 'cause I don't love those records - it's 'cause I can't stand to hear people (including the creators of those records) continue to ape and rehash themselves to the point where the original brilliance of it is diminished. Why would I listen to The Ownerz when I can listen to Hard To Earn...

    My man, you've got so much stuff in here that I disagree with that I don't know where to start. I am too weary to respond to it all. You are entitled to your opinion, though. I'll just reply by saying this- I am a dude who actually went to parties by Bambaataa / Cold Crush / Flash etc. back in the days. What I know as real hip hop IS real hip hop. I am right, you are wrong. That is all.
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