I'm a firm believer that one can be against things without knowing what your for. If the current problem is intractable, the only way to move forward is a negation of both parties. New approaches become possible as entrenched powers are diminished.
I'm a firm believer that one can be against things without knowing what your for. If the current problem is intractable, the only way to move forward is a negation of both parties. New approaches become possible as entrenched powers are diminished.
We can condemn every swinging dick from here to Papua New Guinea, it's not going to change a damn thing...
Mark Johnson and Rob Zilla's e-rage not withstanding, there's nothing to be done here that's going to change shit.
I guess not... But hey, maybe somebody reading this thread will go to the Counterpunch site and read the latest updates there.
What makes this a difficult subject is the extraordinarily thick cloud of Israeli propaganda clogging the American sky. Reread that Norman Finkelstein excerpt. The rest of the world sees this for the tragic bullshit it is.
While it is admittedly a far fetched analogy, would anyone here support Native Americans on principle if their goal was the total destruction and elimination of the United States???
Not trying to relate the two in any way beyond it's very basic similarities.
That's a legitimate analogy and a cause I think people would support.... if it wasn't in their own place of birth and residence.
The bottom line is we're all in an armchair quarterback position because that conflict took place long before any of us were born and we live on the spoils.
Obviously, folks with significant ties to Israel or who live there feel differently about this than the rest of us.
And even within those of us who do not, there's a wide variety of opinions and reactions as this thread bears out.
But I'm sure someone will tell you it's irrelevant and totally different.
Where were all the television cameras when innocent children in Ashkelon and Sderot were being maimed and killed?
Although children are always innocent, I wouldn't call adults living in Ashkelon and Sderot innocent as they are living on stolen land (look at the UN Partition Plan map for reference). Some 418 towns have been ethnically cleansed by Israelis in the late 40's & early 50's which includes Majdl (present day Ashkelon) & Najd (present day Sderot).
The Native American analogy is imperfect because Jews are actually from Israel originally. I know it was a long time ago but it's sort of a fact. And many of them never left.
I'm not saying that this fact alone gave them rights to establish a modern republic in Israel in 1948; I'm merely pointing out how vastly different the two cases are.
(I'm now gonna sit back and watch the haters poast some insane pseudoscientifical articles about how most Jews are actually Russian converts or lizards or something.)
The Native American analogy is imperfect because Jews are actually from Israel originally. I know it was a long time ago but it's sort of a fact. And many of them never left.
I'm not saying that this fact alone gave them rights to establish a modern republic in Israel in 1948; I'm merely pointing out how vastly different the two cases are.
(I'm now gonna sit back and watch the haters poast some insane pseudoscientifical articles about how most Jews are actually Russian converts or lizards or something.)
The Native American analogy is imperfect because Jews are actually from Israel originally. I know it was a long time ago but it's sort of a fact. And many of them never left.
I'm not saying that this fact alone gave them rights to establish a modern republic in Israel in 1948; I'm merely pointing out how vastly different the two cases are.
(I'm now gonna sit back and watch the haters poast some insane pseudoscientifical articles about how most Jews are actually Russian converts or lizards or something.)
"sort of a fact"
sums you up, dude
you moron. I was being sarcastic. as in, we can ignore this little piece of information in our Native American-Palestinian analogies, but it remains, you know, a fact.
What's the breakdown of Ashkenazic/Sephardic Jews in Israel specifically?
over 50% of the population is Sephardic/Mizrachi. that could mean they they immigrated from as far as Iran or as close as Lebanon. some families never left Jerusalem, Hebron or Tzvat at all, but that was a small number (remember they were expelled pretty thoroughly by the Romans).
still, most Sephardic/Mizrachi Jews were Jews whose families had been expelled from Israel, settled 40 or 100 or 200 miles away, and lived there continuously until they returned to Israel 1500 years later.
Where were all the television cameras when innocent children in Ashkelon and Sderot were being maimed and killed?
Although children are always innocent, I wouldn't call adults living in Ashkelon and Sderot innocent as they are living on stolen land (look at the UN Partition Plan map for reference). Some 418 towns have been ethnically cleansed by Israelis in the late 40's & early 50's which includes Majdl (present day Ashkelon) & Najd (present day Sderot).
your map poast conveniently ignores the war that resulted in the population displacement you're talking about. it's a salient fact. the Jews did not walk into town and kick everyone out. in fact they adhered pretty scrupulously to the partition plan well into the war, only moving into territory outside of the partition lines when they deemed doing so necessary to securing their borders and supply lines.
the Arabs, needless to say, rejected the very notion of partition on principle, and would have took over as much territory as possible. so it's rich to here you claim that the Jews were the ones that defied the partition plan. the Arabs didn't even recognize it to begin with.
a fact to consider: Israel's War of Independence left a large Arab minority within Israel. by contrast not a single Jew remained in the areas conquered by the Arabs. do the math.
The Native American analogy is imperfect because Jews are actually from Israel originally. I know it was a long time ago but it's sort of a fact. And many of them never left.
I'm not saying that this fact alone gave them rights to establish a modern republic in Israel in 1948; I'm merely pointing out how vastly different the two cases are.
(I'm now gonna sit back and watch the haters poast some insane pseudoscientifical articles about how most Jews are actually Russian converts or lizards or something.)
"sort of a fact"
sums you up, dude
you moron. I was being sarcastic. as in, we can ignore this little piece of information in our Native American-Palestinian analogies, but it remains, you know, a fact.
Right. Native Americans crossed the land bridge in Bering Strait 12,000 years ago. You're comparing Jews to them... why? I'm confused.
The first step toward peace is the international community holding up international laws
territorial sovereignty is one of the main pillars of international law. it's what makes the unprovoked firing of missiles into a neighboring country illegal. but I didn't see any UN emergency sessions until Israel fucked around and responded to this international law violation.
so yeah, I agree with you that we should start upholding international laws in a more evenhanded manner up in here.
We can condemn every swinging dick from here to Papua New Guinea, it's not going to change a damn thing...
Condemning things on Soulstrut is about as politically effective as a wet napkin, but discussion and debate are part of awareness and education, which are supposed to be the first step in political action. If they're also the last step, then
There are[/b] steps we can take to affect change in Israel. Writing, demos, solidarity, ect, help change a political climate. A shift in the political climate in the US could mean major things for politics in Israel. It would mean even more major things for politics in the US.
Me neither, really. (My mom is Jewish but I was raised Catholic).
The point remains... How can you take seriously a man who says that he's from Israel --two thousand years ago? How is it that this impossibly ridiculous argument has passed muster for a few decades in the West, especially the United States?
It's almost as though we, in the USA, are so surrounded by Christian imbecility we just accept the same bullshit from minority religions.
Both parties fucked up. Get them all out of Israel.
We should invade, kick the Israeli and Palestinian people out of there and make the country our own little Mediterranean party town. I want an American Ibiza.
Comments
Mark Johnson and Rob Zilla's e-rage not withstanding, there's nothing to be done here that's going to change shit.
I'm a firm believer that one can be against things without knowing what your for. If the current problem is intractable, the only way to move forward is a negation of both parties. New approaches become possible as entrenched powers are diminished.
can't they just have a prayer-off and leave the fate in their deities hands?
We can condemn every swinging dick from here to Papua New Guinea, it's not going to change a damn thing...
I guess not... But hey, maybe somebody reading this thread will go to the Counterpunch site and read the latest updates there.
What makes this a difficult subject is the extraordinarily thick cloud of Israeli propaganda clogging the American sky. Reread that Norman Finkelstein excerpt. The rest of the world sees this for the tragic bullshit it is.
Not trying to relate the two in any way beyond it's very basic similarities.
The bottom line is we're all in an armchair quarterback position because that conflict took place long before any of us were born and we live on the spoils.
Obviously, folks with significant ties to Israel or who live there feel differently about this than the rest of us.
And even within those of us who do not, there's a wide variety of opinions and reactions as this thread bears out.
But I'm sure someone will tell you it's irrelevant and totally different.
Although children are always innocent, I wouldn't call adults living in Ashkelon and Sderot innocent as they are living on stolen land (look at the UN Partition Plan map for reference). Some 418 towns have been ethnically cleansed by Israelis in the late 40's & early 50's which includes Majdl (present day Ashkelon) & Najd (present day Sderot).
I will humbly decline accepting your recently earned title.
I'm not saying that this fact alone gave them rights to establish a modern republic in Israel in 1948; I'm merely pointing out how vastly different the two cases are.
(I'm now gonna sit back and watch the haters poast some insane pseudoscientifical articles about how most Jews are actually Russian converts or lizards or something.)
"sort of a fact"
sums you up, dude
My sort of facts seem to be much different than yours.
The first step toward peace is the international community holding up international laws and Israel admitting wrong doing.
you moron. I was being sarcastic. as in, we can ignore this little piece of information in our Native American-Palestinian analogies, but it remains, you know, a fact.
over 50% of the population is Sephardic/Mizrachi. that could mean they they immigrated from as far as Iran or as close as Lebanon. some families never left Jerusalem, Hebron or Tzvat at all, but that was a small number (remember they were expelled pretty thoroughly by the Romans).
still, most Sephardic/Mizrachi Jews were Jews whose families had been expelled from Israel, settled 40 or 100 or 200 miles away, and lived there continuously until they returned to Israel 1500 years later.
your map poast conveniently ignores the war that resulted in the population displacement you're talking about. it's a salient fact. the Jews did not walk into town and kick everyone out. in fact they adhered pretty scrupulously to the partition plan well into the war, only moving into territory outside of the partition lines when they deemed doing so necessary to securing their borders and supply lines.
the Arabs, needless to say, rejected the very notion of partition on principle, and would have took over as much territory as possible. so it's rich to here you claim that the Jews were the ones that defied the partition plan. the Arabs didn't even recognize it to begin with.
a fact to consider: Israel's War of Independence left a large Arab minority within Israel. by contrast not a single Jew remained in the areas conquered by the Arabs. do the math.
The amount of force used is equivalent to using a rocket launcher against a slingshot.
I think everyone gets the point now. This shit needs to end.
Right. Native Americans crossed the land bridge in Bering Strait 12,000 years ago. You're comparing Jews to them... why? I'm confused.
territorial sovereignty is one of the main pillars of international law. it's what makes the unprovoked firing of missiles into a neighboring country illegal. but I didn't see any UN emergency sessions until Israel fucked around and responded to this international law violation.
so yeah, I agree with you that we should start upholding international laws in a more evenhanded manner up in here.
So... you think you're from Israel, Jonny?
Condemning things on Soulstrut is about as politically effective as a wet napkin, but discussion and debate are part of awareness and education, which are supposed to be the first step in political action. If they're also the last step, then
There are[/b] steps we can take to affect change in Israel. Writing, demos, solidarity, ect, help change a political climate. A shift in the political climate in the US could mean major things for politics in Israel. It would mean even more major things for politics in the US.
Me neither, really. (My mom is Jewish but I was raised Catholic).
The point remains... How can you take seriously a man who says that he's from Israel --two thousand years ago? How is it that this impossibly ridiculous argument has passed muster for a few decades in the West, especially the United States?
It's almost as though we, in the USA, are so surrounded by Christian imbecility we just accept the same bullshit from minority religions.
We should invade, kick the Israeli and Palestinian people out of there and make the country our own little Mediterranean party town. I want an American Ibiza.