Still, whatever tactics a minority of Zionists used 70 years ago, I assure you the modern-day phenomenon of specifically targeting CIVILIAN women and children in locales specifically chosen for their non-military nature (restaurants, pre-schools and bar mitzvahs), packing bombs with nails to ensure that even the living are maimed, going so far as to send confused developmentally disabled and minor bombers to carry out attacks, plying the scared bombers with alcohol and false promises of sexual-religious paradise, then naming soccer clubs after the perpetrators, and finally campaigning against other terrorist factions specifically on a platform of how many more Jewish civilians your faction has killed, is a distinctly Palestinian innovation.
Agreed on the end result, but why the reluctance to admit to the catalist?
So what if modern Israel is the creation of western powers? All the nations in that region are. The essential difference between all of these 'artificial' nations is that one is filled with jews. Be real.
Since i'm here I may as well ask a question about something that has been giving me difficulties. Reading the liberal opinion outlets I have seen the term 'proportionality' used to the point of a mantra. I must confess that I have had trouble getting to grips with the idea. Is it, perhaps, that liberals don't so much oppose the israeli action in itself but only believe israel should have waited until hamas had succesfully killed hundreds of israeli's before launching it? Would this have met the liberal criteria for proportionality?
Please, I am very interested in this system of, what should we call it, quantitative ethics? and would appreciate it if someone could flesh it out for me.
Maybe you didn't catch my drift, maybe it was because I spelled 'catalyst' wrong, but what I meant was that I, and the rest of the world, feel that it is more than just strange, but inhuman to willingly see no connection between the treatment of the oppressed by the oppressors and the effect. Why the knee-jerk loyalty to other big-endians against little-endians? What sort of insight does blind faith lend to anyone? Why do you suppose this looks like racism?
Don't take my word for it though Rootless. Please read the post by Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (three or four previous).
Q: what does the second part of this mean?
"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour"
Dolo, 'proportionality': one party in this wields the power of choice. Camped in high concentrations within a blockaded ghetto, the other party's choices seem limited.
Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position. This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.
"The International Committee of the Red Cross, meanwhile, has issued a rare condemnation of the Israeli government for blocking it from the site of a deadly bombing of Palestinian civilians. The Red Cross says Israel barred aid workers for four days from reaching victims in the neighborhood of Zeitoun. Israeli soldiers reportedly tried to chase the rescue workers away. When they finally arrived, the workers found fifteen bodies, along with several children still barely alive. The children were lying next to their dead mothers."
These are the eggs that you're breaking to make the omelette. Children lying next to the bodies of their dead parents for days, while the army chases away aid workers.
Angry as I am about events in Gaza, I can't be bothered with name calling as it's had me (incorrectly imo) labelled on here in the past. What I would like to understand though, is why the same people who leap to the defence of Israel do see everything in black and white:
Rootless in one sentence switches from using the term Israelis to Jews. There is a difference though. You've been over there Rootless. Family over there? Pilgrimage? Both? Do you go there as a Jew, or as an Israeli?
Is it your perception that the world sees no difference? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand why people that I know[/b] are perfectly sane and reasonable are siding with an entity that is, to any neutral observer, totally unreasonable. There's no justification or defence for what Israel is doing at the moment, and to borrow Cosmo's words "you can't" - because you guys are good people. Is it really that difficult to separate personal identity with religion, with race? I'm aware that this is a thorny question, and I'm not trying to be offensive or insensitive. Just trying to understand the partisanship.
Back to history.
If, after some barbaric actions against the British from the Irgun, moderate Israelis condemned their actions, do you really think that in a prosperous, settled Palestine, moderate Palestinians wouldn't also condemn the actions of the militant members of Hamas?
Of course they would. Palestinians, if pricked, will bleed just like you or I. So the objective should be about making the majority of Palestinians moderate. Israel is patently not following that objective. Nobody living in the conditions of the Gaza Strip could be moderate. That's something else you can't argue against while sounding reasonable.
It all boils down to choice. Again, not trying to be offensive or insensitive, just totally mistified by the choices being made. By the silence.
Testimony: Gaza family massacred, survivors detained[/b] Testimony, B'Tselem, 8 January 2009
Meysa Fawzi al-Samuni, 19, a married homemaker with an infant daughter, is a resident of Gaza City. The following testimony was given to B'Tselem's Iyad Haddad by telephone on 7 January 2009:
The soldiers told us that they would release us and leave only Musa and his uncle Emad in case Hamas came. I understood that they intended to use them as "human shields." They ordered us to leave the house, and we walked along the street about 400-500 meters until we found an ambulance, which took me and my daughter to al-Shifa Hospital. The others from my family continued to walk in the street. Later, some of them also arrived at the hospital.
EI investigation: The US media and the attack on Gaza[/b] Shervan Sardar, The Electronic Intifada, 8 January 2009
Most of the Israeli cease fire violations were ignored by the editorial pages. Within one week of the cease fire, the UN reported that Israel had violated it seven times. In fact, Israel announced very early into the ceasefire that it intended to fire "warning shots" at Palestinians who enter an area west of the Gaza Strip border fence, extending for several hundred meters -- preventing Palestinian farmers from accessing their lands. Palestinian fisherman off the coast of Gaza also faced almost daily harassment and assault from the Israeli navy. Furthermore, not a single editorial or op-ed mentioned the raid by Israel's army into Gaza on 4 November, which according to independent observers and human rights organizations effectively broke the ceasefire.
>>At least 30 people were killed in the Zeitoun district of Gaza after Israeli troops repeatedly shelled a house to which more than 100 Palestinians had been evacuated by the Israeli military, the UN said today.
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), said in a report it was "one of the gravest incidents since the beginning of operations" against Hamas militants in Gaza by the Israeli military on 27 December.
Phlly used to be called Shackamaxon. It was a Lenape village. Land changes hands & its not usually pretty when it does. Isn't that the way of the world?
Phlly used to be called Shackamaxon. It was a Lenape village. Land changes hands & its not usually pretty when it does. Isn't that the way of the world?
Native American civilizations were destroyed so why not destroy the Palestinians?
Shallow, cynical, stupid, offensive (I don't really care about this), obtuse...
The goal seems to be to make continuing to fight the Israelis a much more costly proposition than ousting Hamas. That's what my realpolitik instincts tell me: force the other side to do what you want by means of superior force.
Phlly used to be called Shackamaxon. It was a Lenape village. Land changes hands & its not usually pretty when it does. Isn't that the way of the world?
Native American civilizations were destroyed so why not destroy the Palestinians?
Shallow, cynical, stupid, offensive (I don't really care about this), obtuse...
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Phlly used to be called Shackamaxon. It was a Lenape village. Land changes hands & its not usually pretty when it does. Isn't that the way of the world?
Native American civilizations were destroyed so why not destroy the Palestinians?
Shallow, cynical, stupid, offensive (I don't really care about this), obtuse...
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Death's favorite teenager! So you DID succeed in establishing a virtual identity.
Phlly used to be called Shackamaxon. It was a Lenape village. Land changes hands & its not usually pretty when it does. Isn't that the way of the world?
Native American civilizations were destroyed so why not destroy the Palestinians?
Shallow, cynical, stupid, offensive (I don't really care about this), obtuse...
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Death's favorite teenager! So you DID succeed in establishing a virtual identity.
I'm not saying I didn't wish it was different, but that's just how it is & I can't imagine a world that's any different.
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Sad......Regrettable......Unfair.......Truth.
Both of you are lazy in your attention to contemporary history. You know, Rich, how much effort goes into tracking down a person. Yet you are happy to accept the Jefferson Starship version of the mainstream news, the findings of a bunch of compromised and often censored mediocrities...
Oh, and "People kill people and take other people's shit." is a worthlesss piece of sub-noir bullshit. Even John Woo wouldn't let you say that, dude.
Phlly used to be called Shackamaxon. It was a Lenape village. Land changes hands & its not usually pretty when it does. Isn't that the way of the world?
Native American civilizations were destroyed so why not destroy the Palestinians?
Shallow, cynical, stupid, offensive (I don't really care about this), obtuse...
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Death's favorite teenager! So you DID succeed in establishing a virtual identity.
I'm not saying I didn't wish it was different, but that's just how it is & I can't imagine a world that's any different.
No, I understand. But the failure, still, lies in you... You can't imagine a different world.
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Sad......Regrettable......Unfair.......Truth.
Both of you are lazy in your attention to contemporary history. You know, Rich, how much effort goes into tracking down a person. Yet you are happy to accept the Jefferson Starship version of the mainstream news, the findings of a bunch of compromised and often censored mediocrities...
Oh, and "People kill people and take other people's shit." is a worthlesss piece of sub-noir bullshit. Even John Woo wouldn't let you say that, dude.
I'm not making a movie that I hope people will watch....I'm looking at an endless account of history when humans repeated this process ad nauseum.....and in 2009 some educated people think that because THEY are smart enough to recognize the ridiculousness of it all, it will change human instinct & history......pretty lofty expectations.
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Sad......Regrettable......Unfair.......Truth.
Both of you are lazy in your attention to contemporary history. You know, Rich, how much effort goes into tracking down a person. Yet you are happy to accept the Jefferson Starship version of the mainstream news, the findings of a bunch of compromised and often censored mediocrities...
Oh, and "People kill people and take other people's shit." is a worthlesss piece of sub-noir bullshit. Even John Woo wouldn't let you say that, dude.
I'm not making a movie that I hope people will watch....I'm looking at an endless account of history when humans repeated this process ad nauseum.....and in 2009 some educated people think that because THEY are smart enough to recognize the ridiculousness of it all, it will change human instinct & history......pretty lofty expectations. [/quote
All this means is that you are a deeply cynical creature masquerading as an informed man...
You have, already, abdicated the difficult task of trying, at least, to imagine an informed response to these questions.
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Sad......Regrettable......Unfair.......Truth.
Both of you are lazy in your attention to contemporary history. You know, Rich, how much effort goes into tracking down a person. Yet you are happy to accept the Jefferson Starship version of the mainstream news, the findings of a bunch of compromised and often censored mediocrities...
Oh, and "People kill people and take other people's shit." is a worthlesss piece of sub-noir bullshit. Even John Woo wouldn't let you say that, dude.
I'm not making a movie that I hope people will watch....I'm looking at an endless account of history when humans repeated this process ad nauseum.....and in 2009 some educated people think that because THEY are smart enough to recognize the ridiculousness of it all, it will change human instinct & history......pretty lofty expectations.
All this means is that you are a deeply cynical creature masquerading as an informed man...
You have, already, abdicated the difficult task of trying, at least, to imagine an informed response to these questions.
I'm not advocating that reality, I'm simply recognizing it which apparently can't be done on Super Duper Gumdrop Island.
Comments
Agreed on the end result, but why the reluctance to admit to the catalist?
Please, I am very interested in this system of, what should we call it, quantitative ethics? and would appreciate it if someone could flesh it out for me.
Maybe you didn't catch my drift, maybe it was because I spelled 'catalyst' wrong, but what I meant was that I, and the rest of the world, feel that it is more than just strange, but inhuman to willingly see no connection between the treatment of the oppressed by the oppressors and the effect. Why the knee-jerk loyalty to other big-endians against little-endians? What sort of insight does blind faith lend to anyone? Why do you suppose this looks like racism?
Don't take my word for it though Rootless. Please read the post by Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (three or four previous).
Q: what does the second part of this mean?
"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour"
Dolo, 'proportionality': one party in this wields the power of choice. Camped in high concentrations within a blockaded ghetto, the other party's choices seem limited.
Bonus Beat:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jan/08/gaza-israel
11:57am:
The human rights group Amnesty claims that Israelis are also using civilians as human shields.
Malcolm Smart, its Middle East director, said:
Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position. This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/8/headlines#3
These are the eggs that you're breaking to make the omelette. Children lying next to the bodies of their dead parents for days, while the army chases away aid workers.
ColumbusIsrael.Rootless in one sentence switches from using the term Israelis to Jews. There is a difference though. You've been over there Rootless. Family over there? Pilgrimage? Both? Do you go there as a Jew, or as an Israeli?
Is it your perception that the world sees no difference? I'm asking because I'm trying to understand why people that I know[/b] are perfectly sane and reasonable are siding with an entity that is, to any neutral observer, totally unreasonable. There's no justification or defence for what Israel is doing at the moment, and to borrow Cosmo's words "you can't" - because you guys are good people.
Is it really that difficult to separate personal identity with religion, with race?
I'm aware that this is a thorny question, and I'm not trying to be offensive or insensitive.
Just trying to understand the partisanship.
Back to history.
If, after some barbaric actions against the British from the Irgun, moderate Israelis condemned their actions, do you really think that in a prosperous, settled Palestine, moderate Palestinians wouldn't also condemn the actions of the militant members of Hamas?
Of course they would. Palestinians, if pricked, will bleed just like you or I. So the objective should be about making the majority of Palestinians moderate. Israel is patently not following that objective. Nobody living in the conditions of the Gaza Strip could be moderate. That's something else you can't argue against while sounding reasonable.
It all boils down to choice. Again, not trying to be offensive or insensitive, just totally mistified by the choices being made. By the silence.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10144.shtml
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10139.shtml
A blog from inside Gaza.
Norwegian Doctor in Gaza interviewed
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), said in a report it was "one of the gravest incidents since the beginning of operations" against Hamas militants in Gaza by the Israeli military on 27 December.
link
Native American civilizations were destroyed so why not destroy the Palestinians?
Shallow, cynical, stupid, offensive (I don't really care about this), obtuse...
People kill people and take other peoples shit. That's a quick summary of history of the world. It's happened, is happening, and will happen again. It's the nature of people & the way life is. Trying to figure out who's "right" & who's "wrong" is these kinds of conflicts is bullshit. Who's alive & who's dead is all that matters. The guy who lives is right and he gets bragging rights & the guy who dies is dead and gets a pine box if he's lucky.
Death's favorite teenager! So you DID succeed in establishing a virtual identity.
I'm not saying I didn't wish it was different, but that's just how it is & I can't imagine a world that's any different.
Sad......Regrettable......Unfair.......Truth.
Both of you are lazy in your attention to contemporary history. You know, Rich, how much effort goes into tracking down a person. Yet you are happy to accept the Jefferson Starship version of the mainstream news, the findings of a bunch of compromised and often censored mediocrities...
Oh, and "People kill people and take other people's shit." is a worthlesss piece of sub-noir bullshit. Even John Woo wouldn't let you say that, dude.
No, I understand. But the failure, still, lies in you... You can't imagine a different world.
I'm not making a movie that I hope people will watch....I'm looking at an endless account of history when humans repeated this process ad nauseum.....and in 2009 some educated people think that because THEY are smart enough to recognize the ridiculousness of it all, it will change human instinct & history......pretty lofty expectations.
This is EXACTLY what some creepy clean cut kid on a bicycle told me last week.
So it's not about security and evildoers?
I'm not advocating that reality, I'm simply recognizing it which apparently can't be done on Super Duper Gumdrop Island.