"Flash It To The Beat" and "Live Convention" are not just more accurate representations of what rap was before it was laid down on record. They are more accurate of what it was during the early years when rap was first being put on record. One good example of this would be the aforementioned "Flash It To The Beat" in comparison to the Sugarhill studio version, "Flash To The Beat". There really is no comparison- the Bozo Meko joint is the real shit, the Sugarhill version is close to being doo doo, and everybody (or at least those "real headz") knew this at the time that these records came out. Another example would be the Crash Crew's "High Powered Rap" vs. Flash's "Freedom". The Crash's version had a loop of "Get Up And Dance" that gave the record the same feeling as if you heard them rocking this in the parks. Flash's version featured the Sugarhill band replaying the same song. Flash's record was bigger because they had the Sugarhill muscle behind them, but in the streets the Crash Crew record was the winner, hands down. Do not misunderstand my point, I am not trying to discount every old school rap record that had a band playing on it- that would be crazy. A lot of those bands got down, man! Stuff like Fantasy 3 "It's Your Rock", Busy Bee "Makin' Cash Money", Treacherous Three "Feel The Heartbeat".... seriously dope, classic stuff. But the vast majority of those records did not accurately reflect what was happening at clubs like The T-Connection, Harlem World, the PAL centers, the parks, etc. Those old tapes tell the REAL story, not the records.
To embellish this a little, I'd hazard to say that B. Fats/Teddy Riley weren't as 'real' as the B-Boys on Vintertainment Records: '2, 3, Break'/'Girls' (which has an 808 that smacks)... Joeski Love not so much though...
Other random musings -
Part of what makes McKasty legendary in this day and age was his focus on a raw drum sound - even the Black Rock & Ron material on RCA (once they had moved on from Next Plateau) still retains that raw aesthetic owing to C.'s handiwork... Seeing his name on PRODUCTION/MIXING (instead of just engineering) credits ensured (most of the time) that the record would be slamming...
That Bozo Meko record is raw not only b/c of the fact that it was recorded pretty much live and the sound quality's pretty uneven, but that it doesn't possess any of the fabricated sheen of the Sugarhill version... Although some may dispute it, the best work that Keith LeBlanc ever did (from this vantage point) was Malcolm X's 'No Sell Out' as opposed to his tenure in the Sugarhill in-house band...
Hearing Shan's 'The Bridge' on the radio for the first time mirrored the experience of savoring 'Rebel w/o a Pause' upon first listen - raw and unfiltered - similar to the Aleems (featuring Leroy Burgess) and 'Get Loose' in the midst of some glossy modern soul of the early '80s...
ok, let me start. first of all, to me pete rock and premier are the greatest hiphop producer who ever touched the keys. period. their work, output consistent quality more than 10 years is legendary. ok, but that'a already been said.
problem with the discussion i think there are some premier/pete rock die hard fans and some who like a couple of tracks and come with the prejudices "they never developed since 1998". but if you listen to every single track both made you can hear a devolpment, also a reinvention, but also big break in both timeline and work. to me, it seems like many who didn't like premo over years come up now. you know, the standard "come on, premo is boring, 4/4 is out of date...". if it would only be them critizing it would be ok. but even as a die hard fan, i have to say that both have extremely fallen down. it was 2003 when they both dissapointed so much, i have to say rap must be serious sick.
let's look at premier:
the 93-96 era was classic. almost every track he touched back than is a classic. everyone tried to bite him, but nobody came close. it was a combination of minimalstic but very fluid production that catched your ear. let's take his reinvention in 1998. he managed to reinvent his formular. with the new sample laws, he perfected his chopping technique by only working with seconds. looping was done. in 1998 i couldn't see the real worth of moment of truth. premo was ahead of his time with this work and underlined his status as the master of chopping. i read people saying after moment of truth, he was just boring. but come on? premier made his best beats after moment of truth, otherwise some of y'all must have forgotten. ok, maybe it's just a matter of taste. but just take:
rakim - when i be on tha mic 1999 limp bizkit - n2gether now 1999 freddie foxx - a part of my life 2000 big l - intro/ eboncs remix 2000 ditc - thick 2000 lox - recognize 2000 mop - warriorz tracks 2000 common - 6th sense nas - 2nd childhood 2001 royce 5 9 - boom 2001 ed og - sayin something 2001 craig david - 7 days remix 2002 non phixion - rock stars 2002
these are just a few of his tracks in this short period. and you can't say these tracks suck all. or that nobody wanted to hear them. n2gether now was his greatest commercial success. everybody loved it. and he still managed to do a real hardcore hiphop beat without making compromisses. boom, hell it got mad airplay as it was the lead single of hiphop opera with mos def and beyonce. the diggin argument that came up to me is pure nonsense. premier made some of his best works out of nothing. ever listened to the samples for limp bizkit, rakim, craig david, common. these are dollar bins. but chopped up to the fullest. there no really clean parts on it if you take rakim, or big l intro. you got breathing in it, because of the minimalistic chopping between the lyrics. so, it's not about premo isn't digging or anything. what's interesting. when i look at his career he always didn't get the right promotion. just take craig david remix. i talked to a lot of rnb cats and they all loved it! damn, it was in a versace jeans commercial an all music stations! nobody knew what it was. this single was so underpromoted as can be. so this problem can be added when we talk about his career and maybe paved the way for his bad development too.
but something happened with his sound in 2002. it became real robotic. there were no hihats in his drumsets anymore. he kept his mary jane girls snare til today, wich already sounds computerish. in 2002/2003 came a lot of tracks out that confused me. just-ice, janet jackson all 4 u remix, rise n shine, devin the dude. this time, premier tried to reinvend himself the third time. he was fucking with keyboards. played basslines. reduced his tracks only to kick, snare, an a keybaord bassline. that sounded robotic, uninspired, cold. premier ruined his sound this way. i think, he wanted a piece of the cake, try to update his sound. he says timbaland is an inspiration for him. but why can't he stay in his region?
i hoped for the gangstarr lp, but i was even more dissapointed. there were only 2 premier tracks after 2002 that really caught me.
snoop - the one and only gnagstarr - deadly habitz
both had him chopping to death and i even heard a hihat. it was the old premo feeling, where he pushed the song from beginning to end, where you are waiting every second to hear the loop again, so your ears can understand what went on when mr martin was doing when he did this.
some tracks on ownerz were good/ok (skillz was fresh, zoning was cool, so ownerz) but most of the tracks were really dissapointing. some where aweful. the who got gunz with fat joe was a shame. that was premier robotic to perfection. premier hasn't recovered since then and i doubt he ever will BUT if you look at history, he made his greatest work when nobody expected him to work with an artist nobody imagined he could work with. (snoop, limp bizkit, craig david). all tracks were innovative and had a new premier sound. maybe aguilera can push premier, but i dont think so.
imo, i think premier and pete got old, tired of seeing people like kanye collecting grammies for the things they did way before and even better. maybe it's about premo lost his engineer sancho and his home at dnd? maybe he's too busy with his lable? i heard he had mad problems by putting it together. fred durst never called him back, after he nodded to support his lable. i just think it's an combination of being "shot", trying to get a piece of a cake by updating your style and maybe the knowledge that time is running away.
the same goes for pete. and the similarities are extremely intersting. also his soul survivour 1998 was so underrated. i recognized the value only a few years later. and he also dissapointed 2003 with ss2. he also tried to update his style. just hear his postaboy beat and warzone with dead prez. he tried to go jiggy. it was embarassing for me to hear pete like this. he wanted a piece of the cake in 2003 that bad too. and ruined his sound.
i read an argument, that az - the come up should be really good, and when it came out in 1999 it would be the shit. and that it should be the reason that the listener has developed but not premier. that's straight nonsense. the come up has this robotic feeling to. the mary jane snares. an unsinspired sample and his played bassline. that's not the premier between 1999-2000. look, i found a track pete rock feat. rob-o - war. it think it's from the late 90ies. so out of date in most of y'all opinions. it was an whitelabel exclusice at hiphopall.com. when i heard it a few days ago i was flashed. this was pure energy. so that argument doesn't count. same with petestrumentals 1 in 2001. like 90% of the beats on it where old ones from the ini session era. but i played his petestrumentals always. it was one of the greatest hiphop production i heard. not only beats, but complex compositions with about 4-6 samples in a track, put together, that the listener thought, there were studio players at work. so forget that expiration date argument. maybe the normal listener wants kanye. but i listen to what's dope. not what should be dope. second i always will love that 90ies era sound. and i would love it if hiphop could go back to this sound. to me, hiphop is dead since a couple of years.
but i listen to what's dope. not what should be dope. second i always will love that 90ies era sound. and i would love it if hiphop could go back to this sound. to me, hiphop is dead since a couple of years.
otherwise some of y'all must have forgotten. ok, maybe it's just a matter of taste. but just take:
rakim - when i be on tha mic 1999 limp bizkit - n2gether now 1999 freddie foxx - a part of my life 2000 big l - intro/ eboncs remix 2000 ditc - thick 2000 lox - recognize 2000 mop - warriorz tracks 2000 common - 6th sense nas - 2nd childhood 2001 royce 5 9 - boom 2001 ed og - sayin something 2001 craig david - 7 days remix 2002 non phixion - rock stars 2002
these are just a few of his tracks in this short period. and you can't say these tracks suck all. or that nobody wanted to hear them.
Phil, isn't the origin of "piff" uptown specifically purple city & dipset? EXPLAIN THAT ONE!
uh oh...
I like a lot of dipshit... uh, I mean Dipset. "Somebody Gotta Die Tonight"??? Dog, that is THAT PIFF! The shit with the "Patches" sample? PIFF. "If Only You Believe" with the Jefferson Starship sample? You know how I love my 70's lite rock, mane... gotta be that piff! I am dead serious, not being sarcastic at all when I say that I am lovin' all of these songs , and quite a few others by Dipset as well as other currently relevant artists that you may think I do not like.
But I am dead serious when I say this too- it is STILL not "that real shit".
at the end of the day, it's all about taste. tastes are different. to me, come clean never was my shit. but it's just taste.
but as i explained, if you "just like some premier tracks", stopped listening to him after moment of truth, it's no problem. but i think people with that attitude can't really judge the devolpement of him with statements like he never made a good one or kept doing the same after moment of truth. there is a serious breakdown in both careers (premier, pete rock) and what's really interesting me is why. if some of y'all never liked him, it's ok. but knowing every single track and saying "they always made the same boring shit" is disrespectful and simply not true.
>>Most of those tracks are pretty boring. Royce the 5'9"? Get serious, dude.
ok, then give me some fire between 2000-2002. some outstanding tracks. (but i think i don't like them. i'd call them boring garabge whatever. as i said it's all about taste. but give me an example. i'm curious.
ok, then give me some fire between 2000-2002. some outstanding tracks. (but i think i don't like them. i'd call them boring garabge whatever. as i said it's all about taste. but give me an example. i'm curious.
Yup, his Devin the Dude track (which we've already heard your thoughts on) is definitely one of his best from the past 5+ years... I'd say "Devil's Pie" is up there too
ok, then give me some fire between 2000-2002. some outstanding tracks. (but i think i don't like them. i'd call them boring garabge whatever. as i said it's all about taste. but give me an example. i'm curious.
Yup, his Devin the Dude track (which we've already heard your thoughts on) is definitely one of his best from the past 5+ years... I'd say "Devil's Pie" is up there too
That track actually is almost five years old though; that album was released in fall of '02, but I remember reading reviews of it that mentioned "Doobie Ashtray" as much as a year in advance of when it was ultimately released.
that doobie ashtray track isn't that bad. but again: one keyboard bassline, a drumset. that's it. i mean timbo or the neptunes made better stuff out of this combination...just joking. but for real, when i hear premo doing this formula i think he tries something that others did better. to me, it's simply not him.
guru - hustlin daze , that was another one that got me. but it's all taste...
Actually this track is bananas and pretty much hit with every DJ... Did it do anything as far as sales? Nah, but as far as the general consensus? Track was on point... I remember this gettting dropped in pretty much every mix show from NC to DC to NYC to LA... But then again I was travelling around then so what would I know.
That was probably Premier's most stand out track in a long time though. I like alot of the other stuff he has done, but its been no "Come Clean" or "Positivity" or "Take it Personal" or "FALA" or "the Planet" or the whole group home album, but still diggin the style.
Actually this track is bananas and pretty much hit with every DJ... Did it do anything as far as sales? Nah, but as far as the general consensus? Track was on point... I remember this gettting dropped in pretty much every mix show from NC to DC to NYC to LA... But then again I was travelling around then so what would I know.
That was probably Premier's most stand out track in a long time though. I like alot of the other stuff he has done, but its been no "Come Clean" or "Positivity" or "Take it Personal" or "FALA" or "the Planet" or the whole group home album, but still diggin the style.
The crowds always jumped whenever I dropped that song.
Don't mind faux_rillz. He hates on stuff like Royce Da 5'9" to make up for the fact that he used to buy Mr. Complex 12"s. Over-compensation is an addiction.
I predict a retaliatory remark quoting my liking of the Macy Gray beat.
rakim - when i be on tha mic 1999 limp bizkit - n2gether now 1999 freddie foxx - a part of my life 2000 big l - intro/ eboncs remix 2000 ditc - thick 2000 lox - recognize 2000 mop - warriorz tracks 2000 common - 6th sense nas - 2nd childhood 2001 royce 5 9 - boom 2001 ed og - sayin something 2001 craig david - 7 days remix 2002 non phixion - rock stars 2002
Compared to his early material, the stuff above is kinda for me. Its not that he can't make good music anymore. It's just that it all looks so small compared to his past accomplishments. I mean, the dude helped forge a whole genre of music & inspired people the world over. What's he going to do for an encore?
Don't mind faux_rillz. He hates on stuff like Royce Da 5'9" to make up for the fact that he used to buy Mr. Complex 12"s. Over-compensation is an addiction.
"That Mr. Complex 12" was every bit as soulful as the classic Project Blowed releases that we all cherish."
Comments
To embellish this a little, I'd hazard to say that B. Fats/Teddy Riley weren't as 'real' as the B-Boys on Vintertainment Records: '2, 3, Break'/'Girls' (which has an 808 that smacks)... Joeski Love not so much though...
Other random musings -
Part of what makes McKasty legendary in this day and age was his focus on a raw drum sound - even the Black Rock & Ron material on RCA (once they had moved on from Next Plateau) still retains that raw aesthetic owing to C.'s handiwork... Seeing his name on PRODUCTION/MIXING (instead of just engineering) credits ensured (most of the time) that the record would be slamming...
That Bozo Meko record is raw not only b/c of the fact that it was recorded pretty much live and the sound quality's pretty uneven, but that it doesn't possess any of the fabricated sheen of the Sugarhill version... Although some may dispute it, the best work that Keith LeBlanc ever did (from this vantage point) was Malcolm X's 'No Sell Out' as opposed to his tenure in the Sugarhill in-house band...
Hearing Shan's 'The Bridge' on the radio for the first time mirrored the experience of savoring 'Rebel w/o a Pause' upon first listen - raw and unfiltered - similar to the Aleems (featuring Leroy Burgess) and 'Get Loose' in the midst of some glossy modern soul of the early '80s...
problem with the discussion i think there are some premier/pete rock die hard fans and some who like a couple of tracks and come with the prejudices "they never developed since 1998". but if you listen to every single track both made you can hear a devolpment, also a reinvention, but also big break in both timeline and work. to me, it seems like many who didn't like premo over years come up now. you know, the standard "come on, premo is boring, 4/4 is out of date...".
if it would only be them critizing it would be ok. but even as a die hard fan, i have to say that both have extremely fallen down. it was 2003 when they both dissapointed so much, i have to say rap must be serious sick.
let's look at premier:
the 93-96 era was classic. almost every track he touched back than is a classic. everyone tried to bite him, but nobody came close. it was a combination of minimalstic but very fluid production that catched your ear.
let's take his reinvention in 1998. he managed to reinvent his formular. with the new sample laws, he perfected his chopping technique by only working with seconds. looping was done. in 1998 i couldn't see the real worth of moment of truth. premo was ahead of his time with this work and underlined his status as the master of chopping.
i read people saying after moment of truth, he was just boring. but come on?
premier made his best beats after moment of truth, otherwise some of y'all must have forgotten. ok, maybe it's just a matter of taste. but just take:
rakim - when i be on tha mic 1999
limp bizkit - n2gether now 1999
freddie foxx - a part of my life 2000
big l - intro/ eboncs remix 2000
ditc - thick 2000
lox - recognize 2000
mop - warriorz tracks 2000
common - 6th sense
nas - 2nd childhood 2001
royce 5 9 - boom 2001
ed og - sayin something 2001
craig david - 7 days remix 2002
non phixion - rock stars 2002
these are just a few of his tracks in this short period. and you can't say these tracks suck all. or that nobody wanted to hear them. n2gether now was his greatest commercial success. everybody loved it. and he still managed to do a real hardcore hiphop beat without making compromisses. boom, hell it got mad airplay as it was the lead single of hiphop opera with mos def and beyonce.
the diggin argument that came up to me is pure nonsense. premier made some of his best works out of nothing. ever listened to the samples for limp bizkit, rakim, craig david, common. these are dollar bins. but chopped up to the fullest. there no really clean parts on it if you take rakim, or big l intro. you got breathing in it, because of the minimalistic chopping between the lyrics. so, it's not about premo isn't digging or anything.
what's interesting. when i look at his career he always didn't get the right promotion. just take craig david remix. i talked to a lot of rnb cats and they all loved it! damn, it was in a versace jeans commercial an all music stations! nobody knew what it was. this single was so underpromoted as can be. so this problem can be added when we talk about his career and maybe paved the way for his bad development too.
but something happened with his sound in 2002. it became real robotic. there were no hihats in his drumsets anymore. he kept his mary jane girls snare til today, wich already sounds computerish. in 2002/2003 came a lot of tracks out that confused me. just-ice, janet jackson all 4 u remix, rise n shine, devin the dude.
this time, premier tried to reinvend himself the third time. he was fucking with keyboards. played basslines. reduced his tracks only to kick, snare, an a keybaord bassline. that sounded robotic, uninspired, cold. premier ruined his sound this way.
i think, he wanted a piece of the cake, try to update his sound. he says timbaland is an inspiration for him. but why can't he stay in his region?
i hoped for the gangstarr lp, but i was even more dissapointed.
there were only 2 premier tracks after 2002 that really caught me.
snoop - the one and only
gnagstarr - deadly habitz
both had him chopping to death and i even heard a hihat. it was the old premo feeling, where he pushed the song from beginning to end, where you are waiting every second to hear the loop again, so your ears can understand what went on when mr martin was doing when he did this.
some tracks on ownerz were good/ok (skillz was fresh, zoning was cool, so ownerz) but most of the tracks were really dissapointing. some where aweful. the who got gunz with fat joe was a shame. that was premier robotic to perfection.
premier hasn't recovered since then and i doubt he ever will BUT if you look at history, he made his greatest work when nobody expected him to work with an artist nobody imagined he could work with. (snoop, limp bizkit, craig david). all tracks were innovative and had a new premier sound. maybe aguilera can push premier, but i dont think so.
imo, i think premier and pete got old, tired of seeing people like kanye collecting grammies for the things they did way before and even better. maybe it's about premo lost his engineer sancho and his home at dnd? maybe he's too busy with his lable? i heard he had mad problems by putting it together. fred durst never called him back, after he nodded to support his lable.
i just think it's an combination of being "shot", trying to get a piece of a cake by updating your style and maybe the knowledge that time is running away.
the same goes for pete. and the similarities are extremely intersting. also his soul survivour 1998 was so underrated. i recognized the value only a few years later. and he also dissapointed 2003 with ss2. he also tried to update his style. just hear his postaboy beat and warzone with dead prez. he tried to go jiggy. it was embarassing for me to hear pete like this. he wanted a piece of the cake in 2003 that bad too. and ruined his sound.
i read an argument, that az - the come up should be really good, and when it came out in 1999 it would be the shit. and that it should be the reason that the listener has developed but not premier. that's straight nonsense. the come up has this robotic feeling to. the mary jane snares. an unsinspired sample and his played bassline. that's not the premier between 1999-2000.
look, i found a track pete rock feat. rob-o - war. it think it's from the late 90ies. so out of date in most of y'all opinions. it was an whitelabel exclusice at hiphopall.com. when i heard it a few days ago i was flashed. this was pure energy. so that argument doesn't count. same with petestrumentals 1 in 2001. like 90% of the beats on it where old ones from the ini session era. but i played his petestrumentals always. it was one of the greatest hiphop production i heard. not only beats, but complex compositions with about 4-6 samples in a track, put together, that the listener thought, there were studio players at work.
so forget that expiration date argument. maybe the normal listener wants kanye. but i listen to what's dope. not what should be dope. second i always will love that 90ies era sound. and i would love it if hiphop could go back to this sound. to me, hiphop is dead since a couple of years.
uh oh...
Crazy talk
Most of those tracks are pretty boring.
Royce the 5'9"? Get serious, dude.
I like a lot of dipshit... uh, I mean Dipset. "Somebody Gotta Die Tonight"??? Dog, that is THAT PIFF! The shit with the "Patches" sample? PIFF. "If Only You Believe" with the Jefferson Starship sample? You know how I love my 70's lite rock, mane... gotta be that piff! I am dead serious, not being sarcastic at all when I say that I am lovin' all of these songs , and quite a few others by Dipset as well as other currently relevant artists that you may think I do not like.
But I am dead serious when I say this too- it is STILL not "that real shit".
Uh oh...
I likey.............not all of it though. Real Harlem Shit.
OVERLOAD
OVERLOAD
OVERLOAD
OVERLOAD
to me, come clean never was my shit. but it's just taste.
but as i explained, if you "just like some premier tracks", stopped listening to him after moment of truth, it's no problem. but i think people with that attitude can't really judge the devolpement of him with statements like he never made a good one or kept doing the same after moment of truth.
there is a serious breakdown in both careers (premier, pete rock) and what's really interesting me is why. if some of y'all never liked him, it's ok.
but knowing every single track and saying "they always made the same boring shit" is disrespectful and simply not true.
>>Most of those tracks are pretty boring.
Royce the 5'9"? Get serious, dude.
ok, then give me some fire between 2000-2002. some outstanding tracks.
(but i think i don't like them. i'd call them boring garabge whatever.
as i said it's all about taste. but give me an example. i'm curious.
if you're diggin the Limp Bizkit track over "come clean", you have some serious problems my man.
The thing with this record is tho.. Try to listen to the Instrumental and take away all ref. to Limp dick and it's a pretty good track.
Double up on it and it's nice!
I can't stand the vocals on it.Lay somethin' ovah it and it's wicked staRR...
yeah, that borders on a dysfunction
of course i'm talking about the instrumentals/beats. although premier managed to carry some wack mc's in his career.
Yup, his Devin the Dude track (which we've already heard your thoughts on) is definitely one of his best from the past 5+ years... I'd say "Devil's Pie" is up there too
That track actually is almost five years old though; that album was released in fall of '02, but I remember reading reviews of it that mentioned "Doobie Ashtray" as much as a year in advance of when it was ultimately released.
guru - hustlin daze , that was another one that got me. but it's all taste...
Actually this track is bananas and pretty much hit with every DJ... Did it do anything as far as sales? Nah, but as far as the general consensus? Track was on point... I remember this gettting dropped in pretty much every mix show from NC to DC to NYC to LA... But then again I was travelling around then so what would I know.
That was probably Premier's most stand out track in a long time though. I like alot of the other stuff he has done, but its been no "Come Clean" or "Positivity" or "Take it Personal" or "FALA" or "the Planet" or the whole group home album, but still diggin the style.
The crowds always jumped whenever I dropped that song.
I predict a retaliatory remark quoting my liking of the Macy Gray beat.
-e
Compared to his early material, the stuff above is kinda
"That Mr. Complex 12" was every bit as soulful as the classic Project Blowed releases that we all cherish."