and as far as aligning with people from differen political beliefs, i'm all for it if there is a common aim. not bloody likely that Occupy is going to "kill capitalism", but if they can promote more consciousness about where our country is headed in this era of corporate personhood, than i'll stand next to an anarchist and a libertarian if it means protecting our country from feudalism
No, corporations are beholden to shareholders, not to the consumer. And rampant consumerism is one of the bigger problems facing America today.
In what way would you like to see corporations beholden to consumers?
Corporations are beholden to consumers to produce a safe product which is upheld by various government agencies and enforced ultimately by our legal system.
They are beholden to represent their product in an honest and accurate manner which is upheld by the Federal Trade Commission amongst other federal agencies and enforced by our legal system.
They are beholden to the consumer to produce an affordable and quality product by market supply and demand at the risk of going out of business and screwing their shareholders.
They are beholden to not pollute our environment by government agencies like the EPA amongst others which is also enforceable in a court of law.
They are beholden to consumers to follow the laws that are in place regarding price fixing, monopolies, fair trade, etc. which is enforced by our legal system.
And they are beholden to their shareholders to not steal or destroy their profits which is also protected by our government.
If the government is not doing their job, being corrupted, slacking or is complicit in the breaking / non-enforcement of these laws, that's a governmental problem, not a corporate one.
If your football team sucks you don't change the rules of the game, you get better players.
And if corporations are buying, manipulating and corrupting our politicians we don't need a new form of government, we need better politicians.
Go back 4 years on this board and see how many people said there was no way on earth Barack Obama could be elected president in America...it happened.....our vote is the most powerful tool in our society.....we can actually control who we put in to the positions of power to enforce the existing laws.....if you don't believe this I can understand why many of you feel the way you do....and if a citizens vote can be "bought" they are just as corrupt as the politicians we need to get rid of.
No, corporations are beholden to shareholders, not to the consumer. And rampant consumerism is one of the bigger problems facing America today.
In what way would you like to see corporations beholden to consumers?
Corporations are beholden to consumers to produce a safe product which is upheld by various government agencies and enforced ultimately by our legal system.
They are beholden to represent their product in an honest and accurate manner which is upheld by the Federal Trade Commission amongst other federal agencies and enforced by our legal system.
They are beholden to the consumer to produce an affordable and quality product by market supply and demand at the risk of going out of business and screwing their shareholders.
They are beholden to not pollute our environment by government agencies like the EPA amongst others which is also enforceable in a court of law.
They are beholden to consumers to follow the laws that are in place regarding price fixing, monopolies, fair trade, etc. which is enforced by our legal system.
And they are beholden to their shareholders to not steal or destroy their profits which is also protected by our government.
If the government is not doing their job, being corrupted, slacking or is complicit in the breaking / non-enforcement of these laws, that's a governmental problem, not a corporate one.
If your football team sucks you don't change the rules of the game, you get better players.
And if corporations are buying, manipulating and corrupting our politicians we don't need a new form of government, we need better politicians.
Go back 4 years on this board and see how many people said there was no way on earth Barack Obama could be elected president in America...it happened.....our vote is the most powerful tool in our society.....we can actually control who we put in to the positions of power to enforce the existing laws.....if you don't believe this I can understand why many of you feel the way you do....and if a citizens vote can be "bought" they are just as corrupt as the politicians we need to get rid of.
You do realize that keeping those safe guards in place is one of the points of the OWS protests, right?
You do realize that keeping those safe guards in place is one of the points of the OWS protests, right?
Absolutely.....and to enforce any existing laws that have been broken...I support that 100% and have stated such here often.
Yet, you've been one of the most vocal critics of the movement. Now, I'm really confused. You support the protestors cause just not the protestors themselves?
You do realize that keeping those safe guards in place is one of the points of the OWS protests, right?
Absolutely.....and to enforce any existing laws that have been broken...I support that 100% and have stated such here often.
Yet, you've been one of the most vocal critics of the movement. Now, I'm really confused. You support the protestors cause just not the protestors themselves?
I guess this is what happens when things are discussed for weeks on a message board...no sane person can keep up with everything being said.
I support "some" of the issues that "some" of the OWS protestors claim to be protesting against.
But I disagree with a lot of what many of the protestors claim to stand for.
I don't believe in "you're either with us or against us" nor aligning myself with things I am diametrically opposed to in order to get a vocal minority opinion heard.
And btw...I am not anywhere near one of the "most vocal critics" of OWS....it just appears that way at a place like SS that is not represented by a wide spectrum of opinions.
You do realize that keeping those safe guards in place is one of the points of the OWS protests, right?
Absolutely.....and to enforce any existing laws that have been broken...I support that 100% and have stated such here often.
Yet, you've been one of the most vocal critics of the movement. Now, I'm really confused. You support the protestors cause just not the protestors themselves?
I guess this is what happens when things are discussed for weeks on a message board...no sane person can keep up with everything being said.
I support "some" of the issues that "some" of the OWS protestors claim to be protesting against.
But I disagree with a lot of what many of the protestors claim to stand for.
I don't believe in "you're either with us or against us" nor aligning myself with things I am diametrically opposed to in order to get a vocal minority opinion heard.
And btw...I am not anywhere near one of the "most vocal critics" of OWS....it just appears that way at a place like SS that is not represented by a wide spectrum of opinions.
Fair enough, by "most vocal critic", I meant within the limited sphere that is SS. I understand that you may not agree with every issue presented, but hopefully you agree with the spirit of fighting to have you voice heard. It is getting increasingly difficult to voice concerns without being drowned out by a professional lobby class. It is for this reason that besides the right to vote the best way to get your issues on the table is to get together with other somewhat like minded individuals and let the consensus issues rise to the top. It's a messy process, but it's all we have. And it's power is being eroded all the time. So I support the right to protest whether I agree or not, because otherwise I have to live with the decisions of those with the money to buy influence. Which is basically the state we live in already.
and as far as aligning with people from differen political beliefs, i'm all for it if there is a common aim. not bloody likely that Occupy is going to "kill capitalism", but if they can promote more consciousness about where our country is headed in this era of corporate personhood, than i'll stand next to an anarchist and a libertarian if it means protecting our country from feudalism
Long before OWS there was a group who staged protests against government bail-outs.
Would you have aligned yourself with those Tea Partiers for the greater good?
and as far as aligning with people from differen political beliefs, i'm all for it if there is a common aim. not bloody likely that Occupy is going to "kill capitalism", but if they can promote more consciousness about where our country is headed in this era of corporate personhood, than i'll stand next to an anarchist and a libertarian if it means protecting our country from feudalism
Long before OWS there was a group who staged protests against government bail-outs.
Would you have aligned yourself with those Tea Partiers for the greater good?
Why don't the tea partiers want to break up the big banks? Or do they, I've never heard this as a talking point. Only that they don't want to raise any taxes to pay for the bail outs.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
How about them do-gooders, Ain't they feeble?
Making them regs, Helpin' them people.
Helpin' them hungry, Helpin them poor,
Helpin' them workers, Tell me what for?
Look at them do-gooders, Ain't they slick?
Some carry them signs, some waggin' them dicks.
Some are libs, some intellectual.
Some (social) scientists, some parenthetical.
Sittin' at them desk, doing good all the time.
Saba make them stop, aint it just a crime.
How to be a do-gooder? Don't need a profit;
Find some corporate, make some good of it!
and as far as aligning with people from differen political beliefs, i'm all for it if there is a common aim. not bloody likely that Occupy is going to "kill capitalism", but if they can promote more consciousness about where our country is headed in this era of corporate personhood, than i'll stand next to an anarchist and a libertarian if it means protecting our country from feudalism
Long before OWS there was a group who staged protests against government bail-outs.
Would you have aligned yourself with those Tea Partiers for the greater good?
Why don't the tea partiers want to break up the big banks? Or do they, I've never heard this as a talking point. Only that they don't want to raise any taxes to pay for the bail outs.
The Tea Party was started in early 2009.....they had an early gathering on February 27, 2009 to protest the Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) bailout bill signed by President George W. Bush in October 2008.
I would never align myself with that group either....ftr.
I support and admire the Occupy movement's display of frustration and exhaustion with the current capitalist system. I think it is a long time coming and I hope it's the beginning of a larger, more widespread realization that "business as usual" in many, many aspects of our society/planet just aren't going to work any more.
I manage a business minutes from the Occupy camp in Toronto. I traveled past the park daily, often through it. I firmly believe in a citizen's right to protest, and have a public forum for discussion about issues. The problem with the Occupy Toronto group was that they didn't effectively engage the public. They didn't give the everyday person, the nine-to-fiver any message that was worth listening to. They didn't try to embrace some of the more independent media outlets in the city to form a grassroots movement. They just camped in a park, spent a lot of time holding General Assemblies, discussing irrelevant side-issues and motions, and of course holding drum circles. The perception from Joe Public is "fucking hippie losers we got plenty of free libraries! get a haircut and a job!" - and the Occupiers wonder why??? It's mind numbing.
I'm actually pissed at the Occupiers - but not because they ruined some grass in a park, or because their drumming was boring, or they cost some taxpayer money. I'm pissed because they wasted a great opportunity to really engage the public on issues. They made it about a sacred fire, tents, and a library in a yurt.
Curious to hear other Toronto strutters thoughts.
EDIT ---
just found this video on youtube
cops singing/dancing with occupiers as they are evicted. It is nice to see police acting civil and human.
Shutting down ports = hurting many of the 99%, not affecting the 1% at all.
"Organizers said the shutdown will focus on how the 1 percent use the ports, international trade and even the spirit of Christmas to profit from the 99 percent."
I ain't playing no comparison game shit. I'm just pointing shit out. Having some shit to justify doing dumb shit on a moral hazard tip is why this won't be as productive as it could be.
Dude, I don't need to watch a video about that shit. I'm pissed off about it too. I'm just saying that pointing at them and going WELL THEY DID SOME EVEN MORE FUCKED UP SHIT THAN US SO ITS OKAY doesn't help their cause. All this does is give opposition an opportunity to paint them as anti-business and dilute their message. Anyone who would have sympathized with them won't have much sympathy if they're preventing them from getting work done.
Comments
If free markets markets were really to be used, many corporations would never get as big or as powerful as there do.
In what way would you like to see corporations beholden to consumers?
Corporations are beholden to consumers to produce a safe product which is upheld by various government agencies and enforced ultimately by our legal system.
They are beholden to represent their product in an honest and accurate manner which is upheld by the Federal Trade Commission amongst other federal agencies and enforced by our legal system.
They are beholden to the consumer to produce an affordable and quality product by market supply and demand at the risk of going out of business and screwing their shareholders.
They are beholden to not pollute our environment by government agencies like the EPA amongst others which is also enforceable in a court of law.
They are beholden to consumers to follow the laws that are in place regarding price fixing, monopolies, fair trade, etc. which is enforced by our legal system.
And they are beholden to their shareholders to not steal or destroy their profits which is also protected by our government.
If the government is not doing their job, being corrupted, slacking or is complicit in the breaking / non-enforcement of these laws, that's a governmental problem, not a corporate one.
If your football team sucks you don't change the rules of the game, you get better players.
And if corporations are buying, manipulating and corrupting our politicians we don't need a new form of government, we need better politicians.
Go back 4 years on this board and see how many people said there was no way on earth Barack Obama could be elected president in America...it happened.....our vote is the most powerful tool in our society.....we can actually control who we put in to the positions of power to enforce the existing laws.....if you don't believe this I can understand why many of you feel the way you do....and if a citizens vote can be "bought" they are just as corrupt as the politicians we need to get rid of.
You do realize that keeping those safe guards in place is one of the points of the OWS protests, right?
Absolutely.....and to enforce any existing laws that have been broken...I support that 100% and have stated such here often.
Yet, you've been one of the most vocal critics of the movement. Now, I'm really confused. You support the protestors cause just not the protestors themselves?
I guess this is what happens when things are discussed for weeks on a message board...no sane person can keep up with everything being said.
I support "some" of the issues that "some" of the OWS protestors claim to be protesting against.
But I disagree with a lot of what many of the protestors claim to stand for.
I don't believe in "you're either with us or against us" nor aligning myself with things I am diametrically opposed to in order to get a vocal minority opinion heard.
And btw...I am not anywhere near one of the "most vocal critics" of OWS....it just appears that way at a place like SS that is not represented by a wide spectrum of opinions.
Fair enough, by "most vocal critic", I meant within the limited sphere that is SS. I understand that you may not agree with every issue presented, but hopefully you agree with the spirit of fighting to have you voice heard. It is getting increasingly difficult to voice concerns without being drowned out by a professional lobby class. It is for this reason that besides the right to vote the best way to get your issues on the table is to get together with other somewhat like minded individuals and let the consensus issues rise to the top. It's a messy process, but it's all we have. And it's power is being eroded all the time. So I support the right to protest whether I agree or not, because otherwise I have to live with the decisions of those with the money to buy influence. Which is basically the state we live in already.
Even though 2 of those posters have voiced support for OWS.
BTW, it is that spectrum that makes this place interesting.
I especially like Saba's posts when he is being serious and providing factual info.
Ew.
Long before OWS there was a group who staged protests against government bail-outs.
Would you have aligned yourself with those Tea Partiers for the greater good?
Why don't the tea partiers want to break up the big banks? Or do they, I've never heard this as a talking point. Only that they don't want to raise any taxes to pay for the bail outs.
How about them do-gooders, Ain't they feeble?
Making them regs, Helpin' them people.
Helpin' them hungry, Helpin them poor,
Helpin' them workers, Tell me what for?
Look at them do-gooders, Ain't they slick?
Some carry them signs, some waggin' them dicks.
Some are libs, some intellectual.
Some (social) scientists, some parenthetical.
Sittin' at them desk, doing good all the time.
Saba make them stop, aint it just a crime.
How to be a do-gooder? Don't need a profit;
Find some corporate, make some good of it!
With many apologies to Mason Williams.
The Tea Party was started in early 2009.....they had an early gathering on February 27, 2009 to protest the Troubled Assets Relief Program (TARP) bailout bill signed by President George W. Bush in October 2008.
I would never align myself with that group either....ftr.
I manage a business minutes from the Occupy camp in Toronto. I traveled past the park daily, often through it. I firmly believe in a citizen's right to protest, and have a public forum for discussion about issues. The problem with the Occupy Toronto group was that they didn't effectively engage the public. They didn't give the everyday person, the nine-to-fiver any message that was worth listening to. They didn't try to embrace some of the more independent media outlets in the city to form a grassroots movement. They just camped in a park, spent a lot of time holding General Assemblies, discussing irrelevant side-issues and motions, and of course holding drum circles. The perception from Joe Public is "fucking hippie losers we got plenty of free libraries! get a haircut and a job!" - and the Occupiers wonder why??? It's mind numbing.
I'm actually pissed at the Occupiers - but not because they ruined some grass in a park, or because their drumming was boring, or they cost some taxpayer money. I'm pissed because they wasted a great opportunity to really engage the public on issues. They made it about a sacred fire, tents, and a library in a yurt.
Curious to hear other Toronto strutters thoughts.
EDIT ---
just found this video on youtube
cops singing/dancing with occupiers as they are evicted. It is nice to see police acting civil and human.
Jesus. Fucking. Christo.
"Organizers said the shutdown will focus on how the 1 percent use the ports, international trade and even the spirit of Christmas to profit from the 99 percent."
http://www.kptv.com/story/16199711/occupy-portland-plans-to-take-over-ports
You mean, more than Wall St. fucked over their business?
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7390540n
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7390542n
That 60 minutes episode aired a couple of days ago and it's extremely interesting and informative.
And it's a reminder of what in part sparked these protest.