OWS protesters have a right to protest.
Examples can be found of individuals, in and around OWS behaving badly, but the movement has been peaceful and lawful.
There have been times when some OWS protesters have made a decision to peacefully disobey the law and submit to arrest. It is called civil disobedience.
For over a month police forces around the nation have allowed OWS protests to go forward.
Just before the middle of this month the decision was made to try to forcefully stop OWS protests around the country.
What needs to be recognized now is the people who are participating in these protests are deeply committed to economic justice in this country.
Everyone now knows that the police will use force, and chemical weapons to try to stop these protests.
Yet they continue to risk bodily harm in an attempt to make their voices heard.
can you explain the difference between "economic justice" and just regular plain old "justice" to me? Because one just sounds like a way to justify the disregard of the other in the name of something else.
and by "forcefully stop the protests" of course you mean "finally make the protesters obey the same laws as everybody else."
can you explain the difference between "economic justice" and just regular plain old "justice" to me? Because one just sounds like a way to justify the disregard of the other in the name of something else.
can you explain the difference between "economic justice" and just regular plain old "justice" to me? Because one just sounds like a way to justify the disregard of the other in the name of something else.
Don't act stupid.
excellent non-answer to a simple request for you to define your terms.
Does that article confirm that one of the organizers of OWS is interested in "killing Capitalism" as a goal of the movement?
So according to the link that GV posted, the OWS movment was initiated by two men. One, a 69 year old anti-semitic Estonian who doesn't live in the U.S. and has a goal of "killing Capitalism". A man who became wealthy within the very system that he wants to take down. Their goal it seems was to get as many people into the streets to protest regardless of what their views and/or goals were. They appointed other avowed anarchists as "organizers" without ever appointing leaders, purposefully keeping things vague as to not expose too much about the genesis of the movement.
Don't get me wrong.....I know that there are people participating in the OWS movement who have their heart and minds in the right place. many of them share some of the same concerns I have about bank bail-outs and not pursuing criminal cases against people who may have broken laws which lead to the current economic state. People who want more accountability from corporations and want laws passed to prevent future problems. I support these individual goals.
BUT
It's important to know who you are aligning yourself with and when you become part of a "movement" like this it's hard to separate what you do and don't support within the "movement". Up until reading this article I've heard people say that the anti-capitalists and anarchists are just fringe element who always show up at these things and shouldn't be taken seriously. But if the information in that link is true, these are the very people who created this whole thing. I may have strong beliefs and want my voice heard but I'm not going to align myself with scum like the Westboro Baptist Church OR anti-capitalist anarchists in order to do so.
I'm certain that there are folks who share the beliefs of Mr. Lasn, but to present themselves as any sort of 99% is an insult to all of our intelligence. Human nature leads us to want to be part of something, to belong to a group and have purpose. But if doing so puts you in bed with people who have intentions counterproductive to your desired solution you should distance yourself, and fast.
If the intent and goals of the OWS movement as a whole are what Mr. White and Mr. Lasn represent them to be, they can take their entire agenda and shove it up their arse....and I believe the majority of the "99%" would agree.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The "no law" part has never been interpreted to actually mean "no law".
There are plenty of laws that have been passed that limit speech. Slander and libel laws come to mind. Obscenity laws, as well.
Rock have you read Adbusters or any of Kale Lasn's books? I think you are misunderstanding him and the movement completely. He uses statements like "kill capitalism" to bring attention, but when you read his work he's more for a responsible free market, one where people and environment are put before profits. Where the bottom line isn't the only thing driving economics, but is replaced with well being for all. And for sure he's not an anti-semite, he just doesn't agree with how the Israelis are handling the Palestinian situation. I hope you realize that criticizing Israel doesn't equate to being an anti-semite. They have never hid who has been behind the genesis of OWS, Adbusters has been behind the whole thing from the start, but they believe it to be an organic movement. While they started the whole thing, they are not about to dictate what's going to happen, and for lack of a better example, they want to create Marx's class conciousness. Its a revolution of the mind as well as one for our economic and political system. That's why its much bigger than demands, much bigger than labels of anti-capitalist and anarchist. Its about fundamental societal change, one that starts with empowering the 99%.
And for sure he's not an anti-semite, he just doesn't agree with how the Israelis are handling the Palestinian situation. I hope you realize that criticizing Israel doesn't equate to being an anti-semite.
"Where the bottom line isn't the only thing driving economics, but is replaced with well being for all."
This is not capitalism. The concept of a free market where informed consumers make decisions about what products they want to buy allows the consumer to take "well being for all" and put a price on it. If people really believe that it is worth paying a premium for a good that costs extra because it: places less strain on the environment, is manufactured by a company that pays better wages to its workers, doesn't use animals to test, etc. then they will pay that premium or if they don't they wont. Engineering a system that promotes any of these values because some group thinks they are admirable goals for an economic system to aspire to is engineering or planned marketing or a command economy or whatever you want to call it , but it isn't capitalism or free market. The bottom line, creating the greatest overall net value, not "wellbeing" - is economics.
Engineering a system that promotes any of these values because some group thinks they are admirable goals for an economic system to aspire to is engineering or planned marketing or a command economy or whatever you want to call it , but it isn't capitalism or free market.
Then we don't have real capitalism as it is now anyway. There are all sorts of standards that corporations are made to follow already, from minimum wage to safety standards for products. These could all be improved from an environmental and social standard, in my opinion.
The bottom line, creating the greatest overall net value - is economics.
And its how we define "overall net value" that Lasn et all want to change.
Rock have you read Adbusters or any of Kale Lasn's books? I think you are misunderstanding him and the movement completely. He uses statements like "kill capitalism" to bring attention, but when you read his work he's more for a responsible free market, one where people and environment are put before profits. Where the bottom line isn't the only thing driving economics, but is replaced with well being for all. And for sure he's not an anti-semite, he just doesn't agree with how the Israelis are handling the Palestinian situation. I hope you realize that criticizing Israel doesn't equate to being an anti-semite. They have never hid who has been behind the genesis of OWS, Adbusters has been behind the whole thing from the start, but they believe it to be an organic movement. While they started the whole thing, they are not about to dictate what's going to happen, and for lack of a better example, they want to create Marx's class conciousness. Its a revolution of the mind as well as one for our economic and political system. That's why its much bigger than demands, much bigger than labels of anti-capitalist and anarchist. Its about fundamental societal change, one that starts with empowering the 99%.
Like I said yesterday, never heard of the guy until your post.
But researching him finds that there are many, many people who must mistakenly feel he and his magazine are both anti-capitalist and anti-semitic.
And after reading his own words I concur that he is overtly anti-capitalism, has said so, and "killing capitalism" is his quote....reading anything less than that into it must be based on either faith or exclusive knowledge.
Engineering a system that promotes any of these values because some group thinks they are admirable goals for an economic system to aspire to is engineering or planned marketing or a command economy or whatever you want to call it , but it isn't capitalism or free market.
Then we don't have real capitalism as it is now anyway. There are all sorts of standards that corporations are made to follow already, from minimum wage to safety standards for products. These could all be improved from an environmental and social standard, in my opinion.
The bottom line, creating the greatest overall net value - is economics.
And its how we define "overall net value" that Lasn et all want to change.
Duder, I'm on the left side of the pond.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
Like I said yesterday, never heard of the guy until your post.
But researching him finds that there are many, many people who must mistakenly feel he and his magazine are both anti-capitalist and anti-semitic.
And after reading his own words I concur that he is overtly anti-capitalism, has said so, and "killing capitalism" is his quote....reading anything less than that into it must be based on either faith or exclusive knowledge.
He is anti-capitalism as it stands now, yes, he does not accept the status quo. Then again are we defining capitalism strictly on Adam Smith's theory? Because if so, then we don't really practice capitalism anyway. Honestly, I don't accept the status quo, I think things need to change. Does that make me an anti-capitalist? Don't be so rigid in your thinking, there are many variations to ideas.
And Lasn is not an anti-semite, he harbors no hatred nor discrimination against Jews. He is against the Israeli government's treatment of the Palestanian people. These are two very different things.
People are very threatened by his/Adbusters' ideas, they will paint him as all sorts of things to distract you from his message.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
No, corporations are beholden to shareholders, not to the consumer. And rampant consumerism is one of the bigger problems facing America today.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Capitalism, Socialism, Liberal, Conservative, whatever. What is actually being attacked is exploitative to the point of criminal behavior being glossed over and basically protected as peachy keen. It's not, so try not to play apologist for it...especially not by way of pepper spray.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
I love the way some Americans use the term 'liberal' as if it's an insult, when the people most offended by these liberals are usually the flag-saluting types braying for freedom and actually so fascist that they consider Mussolini a limp-wristed 'lefty'.
Oh, and I want one of these:
This is a solar neutrino detector at the Laboratorio Nazionale del Gran Sasso underground physics laboratory. The instrument detects anti-neutrinos and other subatomic particles that interact in its liquid centre, a 300-tonne sphere of scintillator fluid surrounded by an 8.5-metre diameter transparent nylon balloon. This all 'floats' inside 700 tonnes of buffer fluid in a 13.7-metre diameter stainless steel tank immersed in ultra-purified water. The buffer fluid shields the scintillator from radiation originating in the outer layers of the detector and its surroundings.
Probably put together by some liberal intellectuals intent on furthering mankind's understanding of the universe, ooops, I mean being un-Godly.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
No, corporations are beholden to shareholders, not to the consumer. And rampant consumerism is one of the bigger problems facing America today.
Yeah. Having the desire to have things and the money to actually buy them is a huge problem these days.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
No, corporations are beholden to shareholders, not to the consumer. And rampant consumerism is one of the bigger problems facing America today.
Yeah. Having the desire to have things and the money to actually buy them is a huge problem these days.
Haha, the problem is that people have the desire to buy things, but DON'T actually have the money to buy them. The problem is people thinking they NEED these things, so they either get depressed about it or go into debt, or worse. This is not a problem for our government to fix, this is a cultural change that needs to happen. But when we have a system designed around making the most money possible, pushing people to buy more, bigger, and better, there needs to be a push back. I'm not saying people need to stop buying things, but we do we need so much?
anyway...i'm with GV and HC on this one.Rock, you can be a strict definition based fundamentalist when it comes to delineating who is pro-capitalist or anti, but it doesnt serve your intelligence well (saba i have little hope reasoning with you). we all know about privatized profits and socialized costs...corporate and industrial america have long been socialists when it comes to having the populace share the burden of their schemes. free market will not regulate itself in consideration of the world and the people in it. government has been one of the most consistent defenses against their dumping externalities in our rivers and down our throats. when government becomes increasingly bought off by power players, we are all fucked.
...which we are anyway. regardless of economic system, the human race seems genetically wired to run the world into the trash heap. still, we don't have to be little trumpeting apologists for the biggest scumbags on earth, saba
Comments
Does that article confirm that one of the organizers of OWS is interested in "killing Capitalism" as a goal of the movement?
OWS protesters have a right to protest.
Examples can be found of individuals, in and around OWS behaving badly, but the movement has been peaceful and lawful.
There have been times when some OWS protesters have made a decision to peacefully disobey the law and submit to arrest. It is called civil disobedience.
For over a month police forces around the nation have allowed OWS protests to go forward.
Just before the middle of this month the decision was made to try to forcefully stop OWS protests around the country.
What needs to be recognized now is the people who are participating in these protests are deeply committed to economic justice in this country.
Everyone now knows that the police will use force, and chemical weapons to try to stop these protests.
Yet they continue to risk bodily harm in an attempt to make their voices heard.
and by "forcefully stop the protests" of course you mean "finally make the protesters obey the same laws as everybody else."
Don't act stupid.
excellent non-answer to a simple request for you to define your terms.
http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/11/22/obama-interrupted-protestors-during-nh-jobs-speech
Don't care. Saba's got his.
And I don't live or work anywhere near Zucotti Park, so they can sit there and rape each other and catch the crabs all winter long for all I care.
So according to the link that GV posted, the OWS movment was initiated by two men. One, a 69 year old anti-semitic Estonian who doesn't live in the U.S. and has a goal of "killing Capitalism". A man who became wealthy within the very system that he wants to take down. Their goal it seems was to get as many people into the streets to protest regardless of what their views and/or goals were. They appointed other avowed anarchists as "organizers" without ever appointing leaders, purposefully keeping things vague as to not expose too much about the genesis of the movement.
Don't get me wrong.....I know that there are people participating in the OWS movement who have their heart and minds in the right place. many of them share some of the same concerns I have about bank bail-outs and not pursuing criminal cases against people who may have broken laws which lead to the current economic state. People who want more accountability from corporations and want laws passed to prevent future problems. I support these individual goals.
BUT
It's important to know who you are aligning yourself with and when you become part of a "movement" like this it's hard to separate what you do and don't support within the "movement". Up until reading this article I've heard people say that the anti-capitalists and anarchists are just fringe element who always show up at these things and shouldn't be taken seriously. But if the information in that link is true, these are the very people who created this whole thing. I may have strong beliefs and want my voice heard but I'm not going to align myself with scum like the Westboro Baptist Church OR anti-capitalist anarchists in order to do so.
I'm certain that there are folks who share the beliefs of Mr. Lasn, but to present themselves as any sort of 99% is an insult to all of our intelligence. Human nature leads us to want to be part of something, to belong to a group and have purpose. But if doing so puts you in bed with people who have intentions counterproductive to your desired solution you should distance yourself, and fast.
If the intent and goals of the OWS movement as a whole are what Mr. White and Mr. Lasn represent them to be, they can take their entire agenda and shove it up their arse....and I believe the majority of the "99%" would agree.
Have at me.
The "no law" part has never been interpreted to actually mean "no law".
There are plenty of laws that have been passed that limit speech. Slander and libel laws come to mind. Obscenity laws, as well.
There are also laws against false advertising.
This is a good interview with Lasn: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/occupy-wall-street-an-interview-with-kalle-lasn-the-man-behind-it-all/2011/10/12/gIQAC81xfL_blog.html
Which side of the pond do you live?
This is not capitalism. The concept of a free market where informed consumers make decisions about what products they want to buy allows the consumer to take "well being for all" and put a price on it. If people really believe that it is worth paying a premium for a good that costs extra because it: places less strain on the environment, is manufactured by a company that pays better wages to its workers, doesn't use animals to test, etc. then they will pay that premium or if they don't they wont. Engineering a system that promotes any of these values because some group thinks they are admirable goals for an economic system to aspire to is engineering or planned marketing or a command economy or whatever you want to call it , but it isn't capitalism or free market. The bottom line, creating the greatest overall net value, not "wellbeing" - is economics.
Then we don't have real capitalism as it is now anyway. There are all sorts of standards that corporations are made to follow already, from minimum wage to safety standards for products. These could all be improved from an environmental and social standard, in my opinion.
And its how we define "overall net value" that Lasn et all want to change.
Duder, I'm on the left side of the pond.
So I assumed ^^that^^ was fake.
But then again... http://gawker.com/5861688/its-a-food-product-essentially-fox-news-starts-spinning-pepper-spray-cops
Like I said yesterday, never heard of the guy until your post.
But researching him finds that there are many, many people who must mistakenly feel he and his magazine are both anti-capitalist and anti-semitic.
And after reading his own words I concur that he is overtly anti-capitalism, has said so, and "killing capitalism" is his quote....reading anything less than that into it must be based on either faith or exclusive knowledge.
It sounds like he just wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities rather than to let the free market determine what they should be.
Yes, there is no trust in the free market. The free market is all about the bottom line, it will put profits over people and the environment. Although I would stop at saying he wants to dictate what values are placed on externalities, he does believe in democracy after all, just not a democratic system that is controlled by corporations.
So, controlled by liberal intellectuals, social scientists, and other sundry do-gooders instead? I'd rather take my chances with the corporations, at least they have to respond to the demands of consumers.
Do you suppose that those are the only choices?
He is anti-capitalism as it stands now, yes, he does not accept the status quo. Then again are we defining capitalism strictly on Adam Smith's theory? Because if so, then we don't really practice capitalism anyway. Honestly, I don't accept the status quo, I think things need to change. Does that make me an anti-capitalist? Don't be so rigid in your thinking, there are many variations to ideas.
And Lasn is not an anti-semite, he harbors no hatred nor discrimination against Jews. He is against the Israeli government's treatment of the Palestanian people. These are two very different things.
People are very threatened by his/Adbusters' ideas, they will paint him as all sorts of things to distract you from his message.
No, corporations are beholden to shareholders, not to the consumer. And rampant consumerism is one of the bigger problems facing America today.
I love the way some Americans use the term 'liberal' as if it's an insult, when the people most offended by these liberals are usually the flag-saluting types braying for freedom and actually so fascist that they consider Mussolini a limp-wristed 'lefty'.
Oh, and I want one of these:
This is a solar neutrino detector at the Laboratorio Nazionale del Gran Sasso underground physics laboratory. The instrument detects anti-neutrinos and other subatomic particles that interact in its liquid centre, a 300-tonne sphere of scintillator fluid surrounded by an 8.5-metre diameter transparent nylon balloon. This all 'floats' inside 700 tonnes of buffer fluid in a 13.7-metre diameter stainless steel tank immersed in ultra-purified water. The buffer fluid shields the scintillator from radiation originating in the outer layers of the detector and its surroundings.
Probably put together by some liberal intellectuals intent on furthering mankind's understanding of the universe, ooops, I mean being un-Godly.
Yeah. Having the desire to have things and the money to actually buy them is a huge problem these days.
Haha, the problem is that people have the desire to buy things, but DON'T actually have the money to buy them. The problem is people thinking they NEED these things, so they either get depressed about it or go into debt, or worse. This is not a problem for our government to fix, this is a cultural change that needs to happen. But when we have a system designed around making the most money possible, pushing people to buy more, bigger, and better, there needs to be a push back. I'm not saying people need to stop buying things, but we do we need so much?
anyway...i'm with GV and HC on this one.Rock, you can be a strict definition based fundamentalist when it comes to delineating who is pro-capitalist or anti, but it doesnt serve your intelligence well (saba i have little hope reasoning with you). we all know about privatized profits and socialized costs...corporate and industrial america have long been socialists when it comes to having the populace share the burden of their schemes. free market will not regulate itself in consideration of the world and the people in it. government has been one of the most consistent defenses against their dumping externalities in our rivers and down our throats. when government becomes increasingly bought off by power players, we are all fucked.
...which we are anyway. regardless of economic system, the human race seems genetically wired to run the world into the trash heap. still, we don't have to be little trumpeting apologists for the biggest scumbags on earth, saba