Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state? Are you talking only about unemployment benefits or do you mean all government spending that is for the benefit of everyone (state schools, hospitals, etc.)?
Really? You think I'm talking about SUNY?
Honestly, I have little idea what you're babbling about. Something about multiculturalism....?
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
[Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state? Are you talking only about unemployment benefits or do you mean all government spending that is for the benefit of everyone (state schools, hospitals, etc.)?
Honestly, I have little idea what you're babbling about. Something about multiculturalism....?
He's talking about multiple generations living off nothing but taxpayers money....but in most cases these are cultural natives.
I don't think I've ever claimed to have anything like a 'hood pass'. Although (like other Brits on here) I grew up on a pretty rough estate, I'm now a 30 something white middleclass dude who lives in the mutha fuckin countryside - The fact that you even felt it necessary to go there is fucking laughable.
Calm down, it wasn't meant as a diss. I just wondered how you can discredit an argument because you don't like the person. Your postal address was memorable for its ruralness that is all.
You probably would get a temporary hood pass in the US on the merits of being a (non-posh) Brit. Once they realize you are not a white American they change their attitudes and start asking you about if you know Wolverhampton because they have cousins there.
He's talking about multiple generations living off nothing but taxpayers money....but in most cases these are cultural natives.
Who by your standards have failed to assimilate? This makes no sense. Maybe they failed to assimilate with the space-time continuum in which they live? Are they anachronistic? Where does this leave Brian?
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards people for not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
No.
Again, maintaining strong ties to one's culture (or the culture of their parents, grandparents) does not prevent one from assimilating.
Economic success does not necessarily mean one will assimilate, nor is assimilation necessary for economic success.
And what no one mentions is that assimilation is not just a one way process. In order to incorporate and absorb what is around you, you have to actually be included.
He's talking about multiple generations living off nothing but taxpayers money....but in most cases these are cultural natives.
Who by your standards have failed to assimilate? This makes no sense. Maybe they failed to assimilate with the space-time continuum in which they live? Are they anachronistic? Where does this leave Brian?
I was answering this..... "Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state?"
And stated that the majority of the folks within the "welfare state" were NOT recent immigrants.
I don't see the word assimilate in my post so I have no idea what you are asking.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
A capitalist economy can't support a socialist welfare state indefinitely.
A state has to be seen as more than just its economy and has needs beyond financial management. Even Cameron decided to embrace the notion of a society (however superficially he does so).
Plus, there's more than one way to run a capitalist economy. Think of all the creative ways that regulations and taxes are used in different countries.
Finally, just becasue the U.S. is the bastion of individual freedom, that doesn't mean that every state aspires to embody that ideal. It's one of the few key reasons that I'm happier in Toronto than I was in LA.
Not sure if you meant Louisiana or Los Angeles but can you give a speciific example of how your individual freedom(s) were compromised in the U.S. but not in Canada?
I meant Los Angeles. And no, it's the opposite - society in the U.S. is more individually-focused than other places I've lived (smalltown Canada, Toronto, and Nairobi). Not that I feel like my individual freedoms are restricted in Canada; more that there seems to be a greater recognition of one's dependence on others in society (not just in a welfare sense). Like, paying taxes isn't the worst thing evar to our national psyche, maybe because we're more comfortable with the public goods they povide? (Sorry, I'm rambling here...)
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let???s just focus on one: the way Britain???s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It???s violent, it???s sexist, it???s homophobic and it???s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers ??? and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children???s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We are seeing a lot of black faces on our screens tonight; it???s a shame that the spotlight can???t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let???s just focus on one: the way Britain???s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It???s violent, it???s sexist, it???s homophobic and it???s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers ??? and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children???s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We are seeing a lot of black faces on our screens tonight; it???s a shame that the spotlight can???t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible.
Just because you found someone who agrees with your opinion. Doesn't mean you both aren't full of shit...
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
That guy is a fucking moron.
If you want to read the views of a right-winger who a) isn't a complete fucking idiot (yeah, who knew, eh?), b) has, in the parlance of our times, been in The Trenches, and c) isn't white, go here.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let???s just focus on one: the way Britain???s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It???s violent, it???s sexist, it???s homophobic and it???s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers ??? and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children???s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We are seeing a lot of black faces on our screens tonight; it???s a shame that the spotlight can???t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible.
Just because you found someone who agrees with your opinion. Doesn't mean you both aren't full of shit...
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let???s just focus on one: the way Britain???s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It???s violent, it???s sexist, it???s homophobic and it???s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers ??? and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children???s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We are seeing a lot of black faces on our screens tonight; it???s a shame that the spotlight can???t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible.
Just because you found someone who agrees with your opinion. Doesn't mean you both aren't full of shit...
Right back at ya.
If you read that and don't get a sense of why it's
1. Pretty racist
2. Pretty stupid
Segregation is the cause. Minorities in England and Europe have gone through similar histories as those in the U.S. In the U.S. modern ghettos were produced by post-war segregation, not the welfare state. During WWII thousands of blacks moved to the urban centers of the south or to the north and west for war jobs. They got high paying war jobs and were able to move into the middle class. Towards 1944 defense industries began closing down and they were the first fired. The white middle and working class also began moving to the suburbs for brand new homes. Almost every suburb had de facto segregation through housing covenants and home owners associations. They were also supported by federal home loan policies that would only give loans to families moving into neighborhoods of the same race and class. Businesses began leaving the cities for the suburbs and eventually for overseas in the following decades. The economic base of most big cities therefore declined as the tax base - the white middle class and businesses - went to the suburbs, while blacks were trapped by segregation in deteriorating urban centers that quickly became ghettos. The war generation of blacks were largely able to maintain their middle class status but their kids faced 50% unemployment in most cases, and they and their children became what's called "the underclass."
Also stereotypes of the American poor break down against specific data. Latinos for example are the poorest group in California. They have the highest drop out rates, the lowest percentage of college graduates. At the same time they have the highest rate of marriage, have a higher percentage working in the private sector than any other group in the state, and lower welfare rates than blacks. Also in some Bay Area counties Asians have the highest percentage on welfare. Of course in just pure numbers, there are more poor whites on welfare than any other group since whites are 70% of the U.S. population, so if you follow the stereotype than the welfare state is really creating a bunch of lazy white people.
It's certainly A cause. To me, though, it's just another reflection of classism, current and historical, that is largely ignored when the architects/stewards of capitalist systems make their assumptions.
Also stereotypes of the American poor break down against specific data. Latinos for example are the poorest group in California. They have the highest drop out rates, the lowest percentage of college graduates. At the same time they have the highest rate of marriage, have a higher percentage working in the private sector than any other group in the state, and lower welfare rates than blacks.
Yeah, there's something to be said for "social capital/cohesion". Foreign-born Latino's in the U.S. have paradoxically better health than their income level/socioeconomic position would predict. But this (fascinating) study suggests that the health advantage they enjoy (in terms of respiratory health) is only present when they live in immigrant-rich neighbourhoods - see figure 1. If they're in mixed neighbourhoods, they have as poor respiratory health as Americans.
Comments
Honestly, I have little idea what you're babbling about. Something about multiculturalism....?
Part of multiculturalism is the apparatus that allows and rewards peoplefor not assimilating. Economic advantage would be the most attractive benefit to assimilating, if that is removed, why would you bother.
Honestly, I have little idea what you're babbling about. Something about multiculturalism....?
He's talking about multiple generations living off nothing but taxpayers money....but in most cases these are cultural natives.
Calm down, it wasn't meant as a diss. I just wondered how you can discredit an argument because you don't like the person. Your postal address was memorable for its ruralness that is all.
You probably would get a temporary hood pass in the US on the merits of being a (non-posh) Brit. Once they realize you are not a white American they change their attitudes and start asking you about if you know Wolverhampton because they have cousins there.
Sorry for being a dick.'ll owe you a cider.
Who by your standards have failed to assimilate? This makes no sense. Maybe they failed to assimilate with the space-time continuum in which they live? Are they anachronistic? Where does this leave Brian?
No.
Again, maintaining strong ties to one's culture (or the culture of their parents, grandparents) does not prevent one from assimilating.
Economic success does not necessarily mean one will assimilate, nor is assimilation necessary for economic success.
And what no one mentions is that assimilation is not just a one way process. In order to incorporate and absorb what is around you, you have to actually be included.
Stealing people's shoes at the beach.
I was answering this..... "Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state?"
And stated that the majority of the folks within the "welfare state" were NOT recent immigrants.
I don't see the word assimilate in my post so I have no idea what you are asking.
You wrote a single post only saying "I'd say they are more the end product of all that multi-culti bullshit."
Followed up with "its the failure to integrate people into the society they have chosen to live in, both culturally and economically".
I'm just saying. You are not talking about poor whites from Russia or the Irish who are "not assimilating" (Whatever that means) who are living in these communities. You should have just stuck to the whole welfare is bullshit deal instead of bringing up multiculturalism.
For the most part these kids rioting are not kids who are having difficulty being British or some shit...
I meant Los Angeles. And no, it's the opposite - society in the U.S. is more individually-focused than other places I've lived (smalltown Canada, Toronto, and Nairobi). Not that I feel like my individual freedoms are restricted in Canada; more that there seems to be a greater recognition of one's dependence on others in society (not just in a welfare sense). Like, paying taxes isn't the worst thing evar to our national psyche, maybe because we're more comfortable with the public goods they povide? (Sorry, I'm rambling here...)
From the Telegraph
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100100087/london-riots-this-is-what-happens-when-multiculturalists-turn-a-blind-eye-to-gang-culture/
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let???s just focus on one: the way Britain???s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It???s violent, it???s sexist, it???s homophobic and it???s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers ??? and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children???s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We are seeing a lot of black faces on our screens tonight; it???s a shame that the spotlight can???t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible.
He does look like a ferret!
Just because you found someone who agrees with your opinion. Doesn't mean you both aren't full of shit...
If you want to read the views of a right-winger who a) isn't a complete fucking idiot (yeah, who knew, eh?), b) has, in the parlance of our times, been in The Trenches, and c) isn't white, go here.
Right back at ya.
Very much so.
In America the news channels would already have theme music composed to accompany that announcment.
National grid sees spike as nation collectively puts kettle on.
If you read that and don't get a sense of why it's
1. Pretty racist
2. Pretty stupid
I can't help ya.
Ha!
But seriously, LA is the spot for so. many. reasons.
Including that there is a similar (and sort of ideal) approach to multiculturalism as in Toronto...
Tea, another evil by-product of multiculturalism.
Yup. It ain't perfect - you know, the way nothing is - but for those who say it's not working...total bullshit.
Also stereotypes of the American poor break down against specific data. Latinos for example are the poorest group in California. They have the highest drop out rates, the lowest percentage of college graduates. At the same time they have the highest rate of marriage, have a higher percentage working in the private sector than any other group in the state, and lower welfare rates than blacks. Also in some Bay Area counties Asians have the highest percentage on welfare. Of course in just pure numbers, there are more poor whites on welfare than any other group since whites are 70% of the U.S. population, so if you follow the stereotype than the welfare state is really creating a bunch of lazy white people.
It's certainly A cause. To me, though, it's just another reflection of classism, current and historical, that is largely ignored when the architects/stewards of capitalist systems make their assumptions.
the Sikhs are on point. they've set up facebook pages to mobilize support if any of their temples or businesses are attacked. fair play to 'em.
Yeah, there's something to be said for "social capital/cohesion". Foreign-born Latino's in the U.S. have paradoxically better health than their income level/socioeconomic position would predict. But this (fascinating) study suggests that the health advantage they enjoy (in terms of respiratory health) is only present when they live in immigrant-rich neighbourhoods - see figure 1. If they're in mixed neighbourhoods, they have as poor respiratory health as Americans.
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/919.pdf
And please don't think that I'm advocating for the segregation of immgrant populations by sharing this.