But Okem, as one of Soulstrut's foremost purveyors of ghetto reality porn (on either side of the Atlantic) it surprises me that you have such a reaction.
It wasn't in reaction to what he said in that clip, I was speaking more generally.
The mere fact that Howe is still a go to face when black British youth are in the news is just sad. Dude is not ghetto. Dude lives in a world of his own, and is beyond disconnected.
-
There's a good documentary in which Darcus' son attempts to become a rapper. Unfortunately kid is utterly clueless, and the focus of the documentary switches to a story about this rather lost youth. But in the telling of that story, his father is revealed as a grade a arsehole. (it's not ghetto reality porn though, so I'm not sure if I recommend anyone watch it..)
But many of these kids rioting aren't immigrants. They were born there. They are British. For many, the only ties they have are their parents and where they came from. It's not because they don't know how to integrate into British culture. They are British culture...
Saba wouldn't being saying this is due to multiculture bullshit if he saw a bunch of white youths from different white background countries. He'd probably just call them poor and they should get a job.
But few of them are assimilated and few of them make an attempt to assimilate, because the country accomodates them. For the most part the Russians and Poles know that to get ahead you have to assimilate. And there are likley fewer services directed at Russian and Polish immigrants as opposed to the "brown" ones (your term). They do nothing to prepare new citizens for succeeding in a western culture - where they now live, and just put them on the dole and educate them enough to fill the lowest jobs. Its bigotryall the same.
This point doesn't go very far when you leave colonization out of the picture.
But many of these kids rioting aren't immigrants. They were born there. They are British. For many, the only ties they have are their parents and where they came from. It's not because they don't know how to integrate into British culture. They are British culture...
Saba wouldn't being saying this is due to multiculture bullshit if he saw a bunch of white youths from different white background countries. He'd probably just call them poor and they should get a job.
But few of them are assimilated and few of them make an attempt to assimilate, because the country accomodates them. For the most part the Russians and Poles know that to get ahead you have to assimilate. And there are likley fewer services directed at Russian and Polish immigrants as opposed to the "brown" ones (your term). They do nothing to prepare new citizens for succeeding in a western culture - where they now live, and just put them on the dole and educate them enough to fill the lowest jobs. Its bigotryall the same.
Saba - Western Culture? Maybe you mean Northern Hemisphere? But that puts Poles and Ukrainians in a tricky category, and as Bassie mentioned, neatly sidesteps the issue of the African diaspora that was created in London, among other places.
But I am down with George Bush Jr's campaign against the soft bigotry of low expectation. This shit has made the UK an atrophied nation with a pathetic outlook for the future.
It's interesting that you quoted MLKJ, since the first thing I think of when I hear of rioting is the race riots tha occured in multiple cities after his assassination (some of the most symbolic riots in modern American history IMO). The main diff is that the reaction was in response to something concrete and tangible, rather than a general, nebulous disenfranchisement with the economy.
.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
Dude is not ghetto. Dude lives in a world of his own, and is beyond disconnected.
ha, don;t make me post up your mailing address - it's a vicarage innit? I know that Howe can be grating, it's part of his shtick, but how can he be more disconnected than, say, someone like you? Not a dig at you personally, but just sayin. He's like your Yaphet Kotto - good family background that contrasts with his real world experiences. He can speak on it, and should.
There's quite a distinction between being born British and having your entire family and previous generations born and raised in public housing.
Brian, as a first gen American, I understand what you mean in that my parents have always been reluctant to accept the social mores of the culture their own cildren were born into. Creates a lot of friction for us at times.
There's quite a difference between integration in America and the UK. America has a lot more economic opportunity and immigrant groups are famous for being entrepreneurs based around culture specific businesses which in turn either helps with integration in the future or allows communities to be self-sufficient. However, when minority cultures or races or whatever the fuck immigrate with either a lack of skill to start their own businesses or seek employment or a lack of capital you run into a problem. This problem is exasperated by lifetime welfare support.
However, just because I am a person of color and seldom represented in politics and media does not give me license to blatantly disregard my community and general public safety. Allowing poverty and disenfranchisement to justify burning down working-class businesses perpetuates the notion that the lower rungs of society are primitive and incapable of effective discourse. Being poor is not an excuse for behaving badly.
I don't see where I excused any of this. I'm just saying what the fuck do you expect when you throw people in a shithole and hope they're pacified by some bullshit.
It's interesting that you quoted MLKJ, since the first thing I think of when I hear of rioting is the race riots tha occured in multiple cities after his assassination (some of the most symbolic riots in modern American history IMO). The main diff is that the reaction was in response to something concrete and tangible, rather than a general, nebulous disenfranchisement with the economy.
.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
But many of these kids rioting aren't immigrants. They were born there. They are British. For many, the only ties they have are their parents and where they came from. It's not because they don't know how to integrate into British culture. They are British culture...
Saba wouldn't being saying this is due to multiculture bullshit if he saw a bunch of white youths from different white background countries. He'd probably just call them poor and they should get a job.
But few of them are assimilated and few of them make an attempt to assimilate, because the country accomodates them. For the most part the Russians and Poles know that to get ahead you have to assimilate. And there are likley fewer services directed at Russian and Polish immigrants as opposed to the "brown" ones (your term). They do nothing to prepare new citizens for succeeding in a western culture - where they now live, and just put them on the dole and educate them enough to fill the lowest jobs. Its bigotryall the same.
This point doesn't go very far when you leave colonization out of the picture.
While it's clearly not as bad, I don't think it's wrong to argue that it's a continuation of colonization.
Russians assimilate? Eh? More than West Indians? More than South Asians? Where? In Brooklyn? Really?
Plaese to stop with the baseless "I've got a hunch..." social analysis. If you're going to throw some shit out there like that, bring some facts. Otherwise STFU.
The main diff is that the reaction was in response to something concrete and tangible, rather than a general, nebulous disenfranchisement with the economy.
.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
We don't see eye to eye on the motives, but I agree that it is prime time for riots here. Esp. now that our credit rating has fallen and Congress is as big of a circus as ever.
Saba, some of the most educated, wealthy amd tax-contributing Americans are South Asian and Asian. In my personal experience, this group is most reluctant to "assimilate" fully and holds onto cultural ideals pretty strongly. Model minorities, anyone? Your argument is outdated.
But many of these kids rioting aren't immigrants. They were born there. They are British. For many, the only ties they have are their parents and where they came from. It's not because they don't know how to integrate into British culture. They are British culture...
Saba wouldn't being saying this is due to multiculture bullshit if he saw a bunch of white youths from different white background countries. He'd probably just call them poor and they should get a job.
But few of them are assimilated and few of them make an attempt to assimilate, because the country accomodates them. For the most part the Russians and Poles know that to get ahead you have to assimilate. And there are likley fewer services directed at Russian and Polish immigrants as opposed to the "brown" ones (your term). They do nothing to prepare new citizens for succeeding in a western culture - where they now live, and just put them on the dole and educate them enough to fill the lowest jobs. Its bigotryall the same.
This point doesn't go very far when you leave colonization out of the picture.
While it's clearly not as bad, I don't think it's wrong to argue that it's a continuation of colonization.
Let's not respond to this one please people! It usually gets followed up with arguments about capitalists taking better care of their assets when they own them rather than rent them.
The main diff is that the reaction was in response to something concrete and tangible, rather than a general, nebulous disenfranchisement with the economy.
.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
We don't see eye to eye on the motives, but I agree that it is prime time for riots here. Esp. now that our credit rating has fallen and Congress is as big of a circus as ever.
Saba, some of the most educated, wealthy amd tax-contributing Americans are South Asian and Asian. In my personal experience, this group is most reluctant to "assimilate" fully and holds onto cultural ideals pretty strongly. Model minorities, anyone? Your argument is outdated.
I'm guesssing that getting an education, working, getting wealthy and paying taxes is what most people call assimilating.
Keeping cultural traditions while doing the above doesn't cause the types of problems being discussed in this thread.
Dude is not ghetto. Dude lives in a world of his own, and is beyond disconnected.
ha, don;t make me post up your mailing address - it's a vicarage innit? I know that Howe can be grating, it's part of his shtick, but how can he be more disconnected than, say, someone like you? Not a dig at you personally, but just sayin. He's like your Yaphet Kotto - good family background that contrasts with his real world experiences. He can speak on it, and should.
Dude WTF are you smoking?
Yaphet Kotto? Vicarage? What?
I don't think I've ever claimed to have anything like a 'hood pass'. Although (like other Brits on here) I grew up on a pretty rough estate, I'm now a 30 something white middleclass dude who lives in the mutha fuckin countryside - The fact that you even felt it necessary to go there is fucking laughable.
I didn't claim to be speaking for anyone. You brought 'ghetto' into it for some reason - I'm still not sure how I'm "one of Soulstrut's foremost purveyors of ghetto reality porn" either, but ho hum.
My point was that if you wanted to know the motivations of the youth who are revolting, you'd be better off speaking to someone who's actually spoken to one in the last decade. Something I seriously doubt Howe has done.
There's quite a distinction between being born British and having your entire family and previous generations born and raised in public housing.
Brian, as a first gen American, I understand what you mean in that my parents have always been reluctant to accept the social mores of the culture their own cildren were born into. Creates a lot of friction for us at times.
There's quite a difference between integration in America and the UK. America has a lot more economic opportunity and immigrant groups are famous for being entrepreneurs based around culture specific businesses which in turn either helps with integration in the future or allows communities to be self-sufficient. However, when minority cultures or races or whatever the fuck immigrate with either a lack of skill to start their own businesses or seek employment or a lack of capital you run into a problem. This problem is exasperated by lifetime welfare support.
However, just because I am a person of color and seldom represented in politics and media does not give me license to blatantly disregard my community and general public safety. Allowing poverty and disenfranchisement to justify burning down working-class businesses perpetuates the notion that the lower rungs of society are primitive and incapable of effective discourse. Being poor is not an excuse for behaving badly.
I don't see where I excused any of this. I'm just saying what the fuck do you expect when you throw people in a shithole and hope they're pacified by some bullshit.
I know you're not excusing this, but it's the general "well, what do you expect" notion that I take issue with. It just feels like a shrug to me. However, I admit your viewpoint more realistic than than my idealized civil protest.
And what do the rioters expect? That they'll be taken seriously now? They'll be feared, but that's miles from being respected.
Russians assimilate? Eh? More than West Indians? More than South Asians? Where? In Brooklyn? Really?
Plaese to stop with the baseless "I've got a hunch..." social analysis. If you're going to throw some shit out there like that, bring some facts. Otherwise STFU.
Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
And oh, another thing about assimilating - not to insult anyone's intelligence - but it seems like it's worth highlighting that an Arctic hare has a much easier time blending into a snowy bank than a grassy knoll.
And what do the rioters expect? That they'll be taken seriously now? They'll be feared, but that's miles from being respected.
I think saba's point of the welfare state being insidious illustrates this quite well. It causes a massive cycle that starts with dependence and continues with uprising, oppression to quash the uprising, and back to dependence since the oppression in turn eliminates further opportunities for people to better themselves.
The main diff is that the reaction was in response to something concrete and tangible, rather than a general, nebulous disenfranchisement with the economy.
.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
We don't see eye to eye on the motives, but I agree that it is prime time for riots here. Esp. now that our credit rating has fallen and Congress is as big of a circus as ever.
Saba, some of the most educated, wealthy amd tax-contributing Americans are South Asian and Asian. In my personal experience, this group is most reluctant to "assimilate" fully and holds onto cultural ideals pretty strongly. Model minorities, anyone? Your argument is outdated.
I'm guesssing that getting an education, working, getting wealthy and paying taxes is what most people call assimilating.
Keeping cultural traditions while doing the above doesn't cause the types of problems being discussed in this thread.
They actually have some of the highest assimilation rates.
And what do the rioters expect? That they'll be taken seriously now? They'll be feared, but that's miles from being respected.
I think saba's point of the welfare state being insidious illustrates this quite well. It causes a massive cycle that starts with dependence and continues with uprising, oppression to quash the uprising, and back to dependence since the oppression in turn eliminates further opportunities for people to better themselves.
Russians assimilate? Eh? More than West Indians? More than South Asians? Where? In Brooklyn? Really?
Plaese to stop with the baseless "I've got a hunch..." social analysis. If you're going to throw some shit out there like that, bring some facts. Otherwise STFU.
Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
The main diff is that the reaction was in response to something concrete and tangible, rather than a general, nebulous disenfranchisement with the economy.
.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
We don't see eye to eye on the motives, but I agree that it is prime time for riots here. Esp. now that our credit rating has fallen and Congress is as big of a circus as ever.
Saba, some of the most educated, wealthy amd tax-contributing Americans are South Asian and Asian. In my personal experience, this group is most reluctant to "assimilate" fully and holds onto cultural ideals pretty strongly. Model minorities, anyone? Your argument is outdated.
I'm guesssing that getting an education, working, getting wealthy and paying taxes is what most people call assimilating.
Keeping cultural traditions while doing the above doesn't cause the types of problems being discussed in this thread.
They actually have some of the highest assimilation rates.
Hmm. My Indian fam and many of those we know have made a massive effort to avoid full assimilation. But now I can see that appearing to assimilate versus actually doing so from within are vastly different things. Thank for this insight, Saba. I'll let my parents know how solid their facade is.
However, assim. is not the real issue here. Carry on.
Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
We have a permanent underclass that is becoming separated from the institutions of civic and economic life too though.
Wait, let me guess - it's because of our European-style welfare state.
If the rioters were Irish this would have happened 3 days ago.
thats a fact!!
just seen on Sky News, there's a group of some 70 people scouring the streets of Enfield looking for looters/rioters!! Vigilantes now, from bad to worse
All over England the cops seem to be doing fuck all. These cheeky bastard hoodies are just walking up to the police taunting them. I hate to say it but just knock one of these idiots upside the head with a baton & watch them all scurry back under the rocks from where they came, & for all those who will judge that statement this is about nothing more then scum causing trouble now......
Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state? Are you talking only about unemployment benefits or do you mean all government spending that is for the benefit of everyone (state schools, hospitals, etc.)?
Keeping cultural traditions does not prevent people from assimilating. The assimilation argument is distracting from the real issues of class, history and economics....all much more difficult to throw smug answers at.
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state? Are you talking only about unemployment benefits or do you mean all government spending that is for the benefit of everyone (state schools, hospitals, etc.)?
Comments
The mere fact that Howe is still a go to face when black British youth are in the news is just sad. Dude is not ghetto. Dude lives in a world of his own, and is beyond disconnected.
-
There's a good documentary in which Darcus' son attempts to become a rapper. Unfortunately kid is utterly clueless, and the focus of the documentary switches to a story about this rather lost youth. But in the telling of that story, his father is revealed as a grade a arsehole. (it's not ghetto reality porn though, so I'm not sure if I recommend anyone watch it..)
This point doesn't go very far when you leave colonization out of the picture.
Saba - Western Culture? Maybe you mean Northern Hemisphere? But that puts Poles and Ukrainians in a tricky category, and as Bassie mentioned, neatly sidesteps the issue of the African diaspora that was created in London, among other places.
But I am down with George Bush Jr's campaign against the soft bigotry of low expectation. This shit has made the UK an atrophied nation with a pathetic outlook for the future.
i don't think there is much of a difference ultimately. the catalyst for the original riot in tottenham north london was the murder of mark duggan by police. the reason it has spread all over the country is because this generation of youth know they have no social or economic prospects under a corrupt government detached from real life. they are just saying fuck it and now all the opportunist little shits have joined in. i would put money on this happening in the US soon.
ha, don;t make me post up your mailing address - it's a vicarage innit? I know that Howe can be grating, it's part of his shtick, but how can he be more disconnected than, say, someone like you? Not a dig at you personally, but just sayin. He's like your Yaphet Kotto - good family background that contrasts with his real world experiences. He can speak on it, and should.
I don't see where I excused any of this. I'm just saying what the fuck do you expect when you throw people in a shithole and hope they're pacified by some bullshit.
but, but, but, riots are bad !
Plaese to stop with the baseless "I've got a hunch..." social analysis. If you're going to throw some shit out there like that, bring some facts. Otherwise STFU.
We don't see eye to eye on the motives, but I agree that it is prime time for riots here. Esp. now that our credit rating has fallen and Congress is as big of a circus as ever.
Saba, some of the most educated, wealthy amd tax-contributing Americans are South Asian and Asian. In my personal experience, this group is most reluctant to "assimilate" fully and holds onto cultural ideals pretty strongly. Model minorities, anyone? Your argument is outdated.
Or you could say its worse in its insidiousness.
Let's not respond to this one please people! It usually gets followed up with arguments about capitalists taking better care of their assets when they own them rather than rent them.
I'm guesssing that getting an education, working, getting wealthy and paying taxes is what most people call assimilating.
Keeping cultural traditions while doing the above doesn't cause the types of problems being discussed in this thread.
Yaphet Kotto? Vicarage? What?
I don't think I've ever claimed to have anything like a 'hood pass'. Although (like other Brits on here) I grew up on a pretty rough estate, I'm now a 30 something white middleclass dude who lives in the mutha fuckin countryside - The fact that you even felt it necessary to go there is fucking laughable.
I didn't claim to be speaking for anyone. You brought 'ghetto' into it for some reason - I'm still not sure how I'm "one of Soulstrut's foremost purveyors of ghetto reality porn" either, but ho hum.
My point was that if you wanted to know the motivations of the youth who are revolting, you'd be better off speaking to someone who's actually spoken to one in the last decade. Something I seriously doubt Howe has done.
I know you're not excusing this, but it's the general "well, what do you expect" notion that I take issue with. It just feels like a shrug to me. However, I admit your viewpoint more realistic than than my idealized civil protest.
And what do the rioters expect? That they'll be taken seriously now? They'll be feared, but that's miles from being respected.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/pdf/cr_53.pdf
And oh, another thing about assimilating - not to insult anyone's intelligence - but it seems like it's worth highlighting that an Arctic hare has a much easier time blending into a snowy bank than a grassy knoll.
They actually have some of the highest assimilation rates.
Yes, you expressed this much better than I did.
contradicts your argument
My position is that the welfare state prevents assimilation and guarantees a permanent underclass that remains dependent on the government and thus ensures the continuation of the welfare state to the benefit of those that obtain profit or power from the operation of that system.
Hmm. My Indian fam and many of those we know have made a massive effort to avoid full assimilation. But now I can see that appearing to assimilate versus actually doing so from within are vastly different things. Thank for this insight, Saba. I'll let my parents know how solid their facade is.
However, assim. is not the real issue here. Carry on.
And the multi-culti bullshit.
We have a permanent underclass that is becoming separated from the institutions of civic and economic life too though.
Wait, let me guess - it's because of our European-style welfare state.
thats a fact!!
just seen on Sky News, there's a group of some 70 people scouring the streets of Enfield looking for looters/rioters!! Vigilantes now, from bad to worse
All over England the cops seem to be doing fuck all. These cheeky bastard hoodies are just walking up to the police taunting them. I hate to say it but just knock one of these idiots upside the head with a baton & watch them all scurry back under the rocks from where they came, & for all those who will judge that statement this is about nothing more then scum causing trouble now......
Just so I understand, what do you mean by the welfare state? Are you talking only about unemployment benefits or do you mean all government spending that is for the benefit of everyone (state schools, hospitals, etc.)?
Really? You think I'm talking about SUNY?
No, I believe your position was multiculturalism is bullshit.