Did you know that lots of Zionists worked with the Nazi's because they had the shared goal of removing all the Jews from Europe? Some Zionists helped the Nazi's make lists of Jews, seize their property, and detain them in exchange for safe passage to Palestine.
Did you know that lots of Zionists worked with the Nazi's because they had the shared goal of removing all the Jews from Europe? Some Zionists helped the Nazi's make lists of Jews, seize their property, and detain them in exchange for safe passage to Palestine.
Some history is left out of the textbooks.
wtf
Largely true but irrelevant. Politics make strange bedfellows.
Clinton did something similar with Ricky Ray Rector. It's an old tactic..
Ricky Ray's fate was sealed Clinton or no Clinton.
Bill just took advantage of it politically.
He didn't create it.
As Governor of Arkansas, Clinton had power to unseal Ricky Ray Rector's fate. And if Ricky Ray Rector were still alive today, even if he had committed the same violent crime, he would be ineligible for the death penalty. See, e.g. Atkins v. Virginia (holding that the Eighth Amendment bans execution of the mentally retarded).
Clinton's willingness to take advantage of this execution politically was one of his most grotesque political moves. Shrewd and successful, but still grotesque.
Saying - there's something perverse about wanting to see a bunch of people tackle this debate like it was jawing over Tribe Called Quest albums.
I think its funny that you view threads like this as actual "debates" being "tackled" like some major, 'strut-sponsored foreign policy summit. I happen to find threads like this both illuminating as well as entertaining in their own way. That being said, this is really just a bunch of dorky guys screaming into a void, if you weren't aware.
Now if you're implying that I'm as dismissive of the actual life and death crisis happening halfway across the globe as I am of Soulstrut political fallout, then I don't know what to tell you. I can keep two ideas in my head at once I guess.
I guess I must have misunderstood the deep, serious meaning of the popcorn graemlin accompanied by the phrase, "let's get the ball rolling."
You wanted a bunch of dorky guys screaming into a void. Well, enjoy.
I've noticed that a somewhat interesting correlation between the people on one side of this debate and the 'struts Ron Paul contingent, for whatever thats worth....
there is never any justification for civilians dying...israel has been embargoing gaza for a while now, the people of gaza are suffering, and will continue to suffer. the palestinians deserve their own country with respect for their sovereignity (as does the sovereignity of israel need to be respected too) and israel needs to pull out to the pre '67 borders, all other aspects of this conflict would be resolved if this happened, as well as i think there will be lower instances of terrorism internationally in general. if israel thinks this collective punishment is going to work and decrease terrorism they are wrong. this is a humanitarian crisis in gaza and people are treating it as a military operation.
i think hamas are in general bad guys but the palestinians are not in general. they voted for hamas because they had no other choice. they are the ones suffering. when you suffer you vote radically. i thought this was pretty clear cut but a lot of you don't. i'm saddened.
Did you know that lots of Zionists worked with the Nazi's because they had the shared goal of removing all the Jews from Europe? Some Zionists helped the Nazi's make lists of Jews, seize their property, and detain them in exchange for safe passage to Palestine.
Some history is left out of the textbooks.
wtf
Largely true but irrelevant. Politics make strange bedfellows.
The point is that if a strong desire to have a state is making you cooperate with Nazi's in genocide and then carry out the collective punishment of an entire ethnic group, it may reflect on the righteousness of that desire.
"Having been slaves, will we become terrible masters when the time comes?"
Wow, the ol' Jews are partly responsible for the holocaust argument...in a thread about Hamas vs. Israel. Meanwhile there are claims from some of the same people that they aren't anti-semitic and that this isn't an argument that is neccasarily prejudiced in that way.
Kudos to the Jewish people in here for not taking some really fucked up bait. What I'm noticing is, for the most part, they are not defending Israel but responding to the angry hyperbolic words of those damning Israel.
What I want to know is does anyone find Hamas justified and if so, why? and have any Hamas defenders/ justifiers actually been to Gaza or Israel?
israel needs to pull out to the pre '67 borders, all other aspects of this conflict would be resolved if this happened, as well as i think there will be lower instances of terrorism internationally in general.
not true at all, after the post '67 borders only came to be after Israel was attacked. Hamas is no doubt supported by Iranian interests and Iranian heads of state have proudly gone on record boasting about their hope that Israel would be wiped off the face of the earth. Theres no simple solution to this, and I don't think land is necessarily going to appease all.
This whole thing is far from black and white and has no simple solutions
Wow, the ol' Jews are partly responsible for the holocaust argument...in a thread about Hamas vs. Israel. Meanwhile there are claims from some of the same people that they aren't anti-semitic and that this isn't an argument that is neccasarily prejudiced in that way.
Who said anything about Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust? I'm saying that Zionist ideology led some Jews to cooperate with the Nazi's and now the same ideology is being used as the justification for crimes against the Palestinian people. How many people have to be sacrificed to this idea before it can be called into question?
Kudos to the Jewish people in here for not taking some really fucked up bait. What I'm noticing is, for the most part, they are not defending Israel but responding to the angry hyperbolic words of those damning Israel.
I am Jewish. At least by blood and upbringing. You won't find me in sheul anytime soon, but maybe part of the reason is because it's hard to find a temple that isn't flying an Israeli flag.
It is counter-productive for israel to prevent medicine getting into the gaza strip. There is an urgent need for them in gaza, most pressingly for valium.
This ain???t no party, this ain???t no disco, This ain???t no fooling around
"When two tribes go to war a point is all you can score"
During the blitz, the population of London went to sleep each night unsure as to whether or not they'd wake up in the morning, but during the day they flocked to museums in unprecedented numbers. What were those people (or any other people in dire straits) looking for in art that they could not find in life? Answers? Perspective?
It wasn't meant as a joke, I'm not suggesting answers, I don't feel like being accused of an ism, and I'm not trying to score points.
Clinton did something similar with Ricky Ray Rector. It's an old tactic..
Ricky Ray's fate was sealed Clinton or no Clinton.
Bill just took advantage of it politically.
He didn't create it.
As Governor of Arkansas, Clinton had power to unseal Ricky Ray Rector's fate. And if Ricky Ray Rector were still alive today, even if he had committed the same violent crime, he would be ineligible for the death penalty. See, e.g. Atkins v. Virginia (holding that the Eighth Amendment bans execution of the mentally retarded).
Clinton's willingness to take advantage of this execution politically was one of his most grotesque political moves. Shrewd and successful, but still grotesque.
As for Israel, the situation is impossible.
Alas, JRoot
Some people might find this grotesque....
On March 21, 1981, Rector and some friends drove to a dance hall at Tommy???s Old-Fashioned Home-Style Restaurant in Conway. When one of Rector???s friends was refused entry after being unable to pay the three dollar cover charge, Rector became incensed and pulled a .38 pistol from his waist band. He fired several shots, wounding two and killing a third man. The third man, Arthur Criswell, died almost instantly after being struck in the throat and forehead.
Others might find this grotesque.....
On March 24, Rector???s sister convinced him to turn himself in. Rector agreed to surrender only to Officer Robert Martin, whom he had known since he was a child. Officer Martin arrived at Rector???s mother???s home shortly after three p.m. and began chatting with Rector???s mother and sister. Shortly thereafter, Rector arrived and greeted Officer Martin. As Officer Martin turned away to continue his conversation with Mrs. Rector, Ricky Ray Rector drew his pistol from behind his back and fired two shots into Officer Martin, striking him in the jaw and neck killing him.. Rector then turned and walked out of the house. Once he had walked past his mother???s backyard, Rector put his gun to his own temple and fired. Rector was quickly discovered by other police officers and was rushed to the local hospital. The shot had destroyed Rector???s frontal lobe, resulting in what was essentially a self-lobotomy
And yet others might find not sparing this man's life as grotesque.
The world is full of people who have given up on freeing Mumia, find the slaughter in Sudan too complicated and foreign, Tibetan independence too passe, globalisation too nebulous, but long for a cause-celebre to call their own. So, they choose the Palestieans. Patronising as anything and totally inane. But hey, lefty cred is lefty cred. Now let's go to a rally, chant some slogans, drink a 40, and get laid.
Talk about patronising! People who support the Palestinians do it SOLELY to maintain their lefty cred.
Your blinkered cynicism is thoroughly disgusting.
My cynisism may be disgusting, but it's not blinkered. Blinkered are the people who talk of Palestinians (or Tibetans or whomever) as great innocents, innocent so that their cause is pure, and a just outlet for the moral indignation that gets university students hot and bothered.
Hey bro, let's hang up the "Free Mumia" t-shirt and put on a Kaffiyeh cause I'm a coming to help those cuddly Palestinians!
People love fashionable causes. Its just like that here. In record related terms, Jewish people = CTI. Palestinian = Brazilian.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The world is full of people who have given up on freeing Mumia, find the slaughter in Sudan too complicated and foreign, Tibetan independence too passe, globalisation too nebulous, but long for a cause-celebre to call their own. So, they choose the Palestieans. Patronising as anything and totally inane. But hey, lefty cred is lefty cred. Now let's go to a rally, chant some slogans, drink a 40, and get laid.
Talk about patronising! People who support the Palestinians do it SOLELY to maintain their lefty cred.
Your blinkered cynicism is thoroughly disgusting.
My cynisism may be disgusting, but it's not blinkered. Blinkered are the people who talk of Palestinians (or Tibetans or whomever) as great innocents, innocent so that their cause is pure, and a just outlet for the moral indignation that gets university students hot and bothered.
Hey bro, let's hang up the "Free Mumia" t-shirt and put on a Kaffiyeh cause I'm a coming to help those cuddly Palestinians!
You are way out of line, dude. Just because people stick up for those regurlarly getting pounded by world-bank-backed war machines doesn't mean that they see those victims as "great innocents".
This shit's not even worth any comment. Hamas didn't leave Israel any other choice with those continued rocket attacks. Now they're acting out their usual victim role... who's still buying this crap? Bringing in ground troups on a large scale and cleaning shit up for good is the right thing to do.[/b] Go Israel!
Unfortunately, "bringing in ground troops" will only mean even more civilians - men, women and children - will lose their lives. "Cleaning shit up" is a pretty disturbing choice of words in this context. F*ck Hamas, but F*ck Israel too for reacting the way they've done and for not respecting the human rights of Palestinians forced to live in the hellhole that is the Gaza Strip.
I seriously wonder what Obama's admin will be able to do in terms of facilitating a potential resolution. Not that I thought Bush was trying very hard himself but I can't see the U.S. taking a hard shift in any new direction.
Vitamin's advice to the incoming administration re: Israeli-Arab clusterfcuk
1) Seek out Palestinians who simultaneously reject the corruption of Fatah and Hamas' assault on Palestinian children, by creating an industry that encourages five year olds to martyr themselves in Israeli pizza parlors. Such people exist. Palestinians are traditionally some of the most cosmopolitan people in the world, in some ways they are like Arab Jews. But years of boneheaded policy that presumed the most violent, terrorist elements of the Palestinian polity were also the most authentic tribunes of Palestinian sentiment saddled Palestinians and Israelis first with Arafat and now sadly Hamas.
2) Implore international community to support these new Palestinian leaders that reject the child abuse of suicide bombing as well as the thievery of Fatah. Give them money, train them to be political leaders, offer them high profile diplomatic support.
3) Aim for an election in 2010, when the next round of PA elections are scheduled and unleash the new Palestinian political movement in the polls. Send out the secret weapon, Barack Hussein Obama, to use his personal charisma to campaign for said Palestinians. If necessary, contact Diebold or CIA, to rig said election.
4) Work with new elected, legit Palestinian leadership to arrest, exile or if necessary kill, Hamas terrorists. Also press Israel to give them a state from the land it won in the 6 day war.
If that doesn't work, back Fatah in a civil war with Hamas. But that probably won't work either, indeed that was basically Bush's plan. But Fatah are totally and permanently discredited. I have no doubt that there are Palestinians who do not want to sacrifice their children to build a Sharia province in some new dawn Islamic Caliphate, which is the Hamas plan. I also think it's foolish to think Hamas will ever change.
The point is also that many Zionists were complicit in the holocaust, so calling anti-zionism anti-semitic is total BS.
This is ridiculous. I'm opposed to Zionism but not for the INSANE reason that Zionists were complicit in the Holocaust. That complicity pales in comparison to the complicity of, say, virtually the entire rest of the world. Moreover, the Transfer Agreement -which is what people generally mean when they talk about Zionist-Nazi collaboration- took place in 1933, years before the Holocaust.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
What again is the difference between a Palestinian suicide bomber killing an Israeli child[/b] and an Israeli jet pilot dropping a bomb that kills a Palestinian child[/b]?
Maybe y'all are too caught up in the hype or whatever, but neither is a better scenario than the other.
And to suggest that only one side change its policies/practices without even mentioning the prospect of the other side changing a single thing is nothing short of pathetic.
What again is the difference between a Palestinian suicide bomber killing an Israeli child[/b] and an Israeli jet pilot dropping a bomb that kills a Palestinian child[/b]?
Maybe y'all are too caught up in the hype or whatever, but neither is a better scenario than the other.
And to suggest that only one side change its policies/practices without even mentioning the prospect of the other side changing a single thing is nothing short of pathetic.
Although your conspiracy soaked immagination will refuse to accept it, the difference is that the suicide bomber intends to kill children, and the pilot would like to avoid killing children.
Comments
Ricky Ray's fate was sealed Clinton or no Clinton.
Bill just took advantage of it politically.
He didn't create it.
wtf
Largely true but irrelevant. Politics make strange bedfellows.
As Governor of Arkansas, Clinton had power to unseal Ricky Ray Rector's fate. And if Ricky Ray Rector were still alive today, even if he had committed the same violent crime, he would be ineligible for the death penalty. See, e.g. Atkins v. Virginia (holding that the Eighth Amendment bans execution of the mentally retarded).
Clinton's willingness to take advantage of this execution politically was one of his most grotesque political moves. Shrewd and successful, but still grotesque.
As for Israel, the situation is impossible.
Alas,
JRoot
I guess I must have misunderstood the deep, serious meaning of the popcorn graemlin accompanied by the phrase, "let's get the ball rolling."
You wanted a bunch of dorky guys screaming into a void. Well, enjoy.
give it a few more pages of discussion Odub
I'm sure we can find a solution for this thing
No doubt. NSA listeners are standing by to pass along advice to the incoming Obama admin.
i think hamas are in general bad guys but the palestinians are not in general. they voted for hamas because they had no other choice. they are the ones suffering. when you suffer you vote radically. i thought this was pretty clear cut but a lot of you don't. i'm saddened.
The point is that if a strong desire to have a state is making you cooperate with Nazi's in genocide and then carry out the collective punishment of an entire ethnic group, it may reflect on the righteousness of that desire.
"Having been slaves, will we become terrible masters when the time comes?"
Apparently, yes.
Kudos to the Jewish people in here for not taking some really fucked up bait. What I'm noticing is, for the most part, they are not defending Israel but responding to the angry hyperbolic words of those damning Israel.
What I want to know is does anyone find Hamas justified and if so, why? and have any Hamas defenders/ justifiers actually been to Gaza or Israel?
not true at all, after the post '67 borders only came to be after Israel was attacked. Hamas is no doubt supported by Iranian interests and Iranian heads of state have proudly gone on record boasting about their hope that Israel would be wiped off the face of the earth. Theres no simple solution to this, and I don't think land is necessarily going to appease all.
This whole thing is far from black and white and has no simple solutions
Come on people, we can make it to 19 pages easy.
Who said anything about Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust? I'm saying that Zionist ideology led some Jews to cooperate with the Nazi's and now the same ideology is being used as the justification for crimes against the Palestinian people. How many people have to be sacrificed to this idea before it can be called into question?
I am Jewish. At least by blood and upbringing. You won't find me in sheul anytime soon, but maybe part of the reason is because it's hard to find a temple that isn't flying an Israeli flag.
"When two tribes go to war
a point is all you can score"
During the blitz, the population of London went to sleep each night unsure as to whether or not they'd wake up in the morning, but during the day they flocked to museums in unprecedented numbers. What were those people (or any other people in dire straits) looking for in art that they could not find in life? Answers? Perspective?
It wasn't meant as a joke, I'm not suggesting answers, I don't feel like being accused of an ism, and I'm not trying to score points.
Hi Soulstrut.
Some people might find this grotesque....
On March 21, 1981, Rector and some friends drove to a dance hall at Tommy???s Old-Fashioned Home-Style Restaurant in Conway. When one of Rector???s friends was refused entry after being unable to pay the three dollar cover charge, Rector became incensed and pulled a .38 pistol from his waist band. He fired several shots, wounding two and killing a third man. The third man, Arthur Criswell, died almost instantly after being struck in the throat and forehead.
Others might find this grotesque.....
On March 24, Rector???s sister convinced him to turn himself in. Rector agreed to surrender only to Officer Robert Martin, whom he had known since he was a child. Officer Martin arrived at Rector???s mother???s home shortly after three p.m. and began chatting with Rector???s mother and sister. Shortly thereafter, Rector arrived and greeted Officer Martin. As Officer Martin turned away to continue his conversation with Mrs. Rector, Ricky Ray Rector drew his pistol from behind his back and fired two shots into Officer Martin, striking him in the jaw and neck killing him.. Rector then turned and walked out of the house. Once he had walked past his mother???s backyard, Rector put his gun to his own temple and fired. Rector was quickly discovered by other police officers and was rushed to the local hospital. The shot had destroyed Rector???s frontal lobe, resulting in what was essentially a self-lobotomy
And yet others might find not sparing this man's life as grotesque.
To each his own.
My cynisism may be disgusting, but it's not blinkered. Blinkered are the people who talk of Palestinians (or Tibetans or whomever) as great innocents, innocent so that their cause is pure, and a just outlet for the moral indignation that gets university students hot and bothered.
Hey bro, let's hang up the "Free Mumia" t-shirt and put on a Kaffiyeh cause I'm a coming to help those cuddly Palestinians!
You are way out of line, dude. Just because people stick up for those regurlarly getting pounded by world-bank-backed war machines doesn't mean that they see those victims as "great innocents".
Unfortunately, "bringing in ground troops" will only mean even more civilians - men, women and children - will lose their lives. "Cleaning shit up" is a pretty disturbing choice of words in this context. F*ck Hamas, but F*ck Israel too for reacting the way they've done and for not respecting the human rights of Palestinians forced to live in the hellhole that is the Gaza Strip.
Vitamin's advice to the incoming administration re: Israeli-Arab clusterfcuk
1) Seek out Palestinians who simultaneously reject the corruption of Fatah and Hamas' assault on Palestinian children, by creating an industry that encourages five year olds to martyr themselves in Israeli pizza parlors. Such people exist. Palestinians are traditionally some of the most cosmopolitan people in the world, in some ways they are like Arab Jews. But years of boneheaded policy that presumed the most violent, terrorist elements of the Palestinian polity were also the most authentic tribunes of Palestinian sentiment saddled Palestinians and Israelis first with Arafat and now sadly Hamas.
2) Implore international community to support these new Palestinian leaders that reject the child abuse of suicide bombing as well as the thievery of Fatah. Give them money, train them to be political leaders, offer them high profile diplomatic support.
3) Aim for an election in 2010, when the next round of PA elections are scheduled and unleash the new Palestinian political movement in the polls. Send out the secret weapon, Barack Hussein Obama, to use his personal charisma to campaign for said Palestinians. If necessary, contact Diebold or CIA, to rig said election.
4) Work with new elected, legit Palestinian leadership to arrest, exile or if necessary kill, Hamas terrorists. Also press Israel to give them a state from the land it won in the 6 day war.
If that doesn't work, back Fatah in a civil war with Hamas. But that probably won't work either, indeed that was basically Bush's plan. But Fatah are totally and permanently discredited. I have no doubt that there are Palestinians who do not want to sacrifice their children to build a Sharia province in some new dawn Islamic Caliphate, which is the Hamas plan. I also think it's foolish to think Hamas will ever change.
This is ridiculous. I'm opposed to Zionism but not for the INSANE reason that Zionists were complicit in the Holocaust. That complicity pales in comparison to the complicity of, say, virtually the entire rest of the world. Moreover, the Transfer Agreement -which is what people generally mean when they talk about Zionist-Nazi collaboration- took place in 1933, years before the Holocaust.
Maybe y'all are too caught up in the hype or whatever, but neither is a better scenario than the other.
And to suggest that only one side change its policies/practices without even mentioning the prospect of the other side changing a single thing is nothing short of pathetic.
Although your conspiracy soaked immagination will refuse to accept it, the difference is that the suicide bomber intends to kill children, and the pilot would like to avoid killing children.
Y'all.