Each side is carrying out its own self-fulfilling prophecy of continued turmoil. The IDF's mission is to protect Israel but every attack only produces the next batch of recruits for Hamas. In turn every Hamas rocket attack only pushes Israel to pursue more disproportionate attacks in the hopes of discouraging Hamas. At this point in time I'm willing to write it off as a permanently intractable situation.
That being said I still think there are areas where progress could be made. All new settlements need to be torn down and the illegitimate usurping of land by Israelis needs to be addressed. Even Bush and company recommended Israel do the aforementioned. In an ideal world US leaders could threaten to reduce Israeli aid if certain measures aren't being adhered to.
And I don't think the link between Hamas and Iran goes beyond the realm of opportunism. Hamas receives aid from Iran but it isn't comparable to the aid Hezbollah receives from Iran. Factor in the differences in religion and ethnicity and the gulf between Hamas and Iran only widens.
The original transgression happened in '48. Everything after that is just noise obstructing this fact. Its pointless in this day and age to run through the litany of wrongs committed by either side since '48.
Here's a question though: what do you think would happen if the Palestinians had some type of non-violent revolutionary a la MLK or Ghandi to lead the cause of the refugees? Would the walls of Gaza and the West Bank come crashing down soon after or would the world decide there's nothing exciting left to see?
That's right, the Palestinians are pure innocence--no taint of original sin on them. They're this homogeneous group of cute scavengers (to use Harvey's term), so simple and pure as to be without any agency at all. Shit happens in the world, but the Palestinians, bless them, just passively sit around and marvel at the beauty of the night sky.
Thank goodness there are bright-eyed university students and disgruntled newspapaer columnists and other such people around the world to advocate on behalf of these simple creatures.
Exhibit 1:
Racism
Dude, I was being sarcastic! Sorry if it wasn't evident. I was attempting to satirise the incredibly patronising tone taken by so many well-meaning goofs who speak about Palestineans monolothically as innocent and noble simple folk without any meaningful agency.
The world is full of people who have given up on freeing Mumia, find the slaughter in Sudan too complicated and foreign, Tibetan independence too passe, globalisation too nebulous, but long for a cause-celebre to call their own. So, they choose the Palestieans. Patronising as anything and totally inane. But hey, lefty cred is lefty cred. Now let's go to a rally, chant some slogans, drink a 40, and get laid.
Hamas can never be destroyed as long as the completely illegal and utterly brutal occupation continues. If I were a hopeless young Palestinian I'd probably join Hamas and try to destroy Israel. And you would, too.
When firing rockets from areas filled with children and civilians, you don't think the Palestinians have any responsibility when Israel responds overwhelmingly?
Should Israel continue trying to negotiate with people whose stated goal is simply to destroy them? Or should they just dismantle their entire society and democracy because Palestinians were kicked off the land more recently then the Jews were?
Two millenia vs. fifty years. Gimme a f*cking break.
In reading a lot of the reactions, I think some folks are already moving along (nothing to see here).
Hamas tried their hand at governing and not only failed but barely showed a passing interest. Now they've gone back to fighting, which is what they want and do best. Israel is pretty much being Israel.
Here's pouring out the rest of the contents of this can of worms:
This all started because the European Jews decided to "solve the Jewish question" by acting in collusion with colonial powers in order to set up a state in a land that was already populated.
Who aside a zealot can argue the resulting bloodshed is justified because the Jews need to return to their biblical homeland?
I know this doesn't point to any easy answer. 50 years of damage have already been done, but I think it helps to point out that the modern state of Israel is and was a terrible idea.
I'm not normally a pessimist, but I think a lot of us are eventually going to be at risk of dying a slow, agonizing radioactive fallout death as an inevitable side effect of this religion bullshit within the next 100. I think this at concerns all of us who live in the central Northern hemisphere. It's all the more reason to live your lives to the fullest in the here and now.
It is my opinion that there is absolutely no justification for many actions of the state of Israel, and I sympathize with the innocent Palestinian people, victims of a racist Israeli government.
I agree. Zionist Jews have known for decades that all they needed to do was change "the facts on the ground" and the inherently conservative nature of people in power would lead to Israel getting everything it wanted. Ask David Ben-Gurion --he said as much quite plainly on several occasions. Benny Morris, too. And many other Israelis, who tend to be much more open about Israel's aims and tactics.
Seriosuly, one of the world's most well-equipped armies versus scavengers with their backs already pinned up against the wall does not make a war.
I would think that any rational group who had their backs to the wall would accept an invite to recent peace accords and stop shooting rockets into Goliath's back yard knowing that certain "slaughter" would be the outcome.
Yeah, it's that simple. After getting shafted after shafted after shafted, if only the losers would just peacefully accept the scraps the victor chooses to leave under the table for them. Because of course there's just that level of trust and companionship established.
Harvey, did Arafat do the right thing by not signing in 2000? Or, put differently, what is your acceptable negotiated peace between these two groups?
Arafat certainly DID do the right thing. The agreement was absolute bullshit.
The world is full of people who have given up on freeing Mumia, find the slaughter in Sudan too complicated and foreign, Tibetan independence too passe, globalisation too nebulous, but long for a cause-celebre to call their own. So, they choose the Palestieans. Patronising as anything and totally inane. But hey, lefty cred is lefty cred. Now let's go to a rally, chant some slogans, drink a 40, and get laid.
Talk about patronising! People who support the Palestinians do it SOLELY to maintain their lefty cred.
Lots of asses hanging out in this thread. As always. I see you dudes. Glad I left when I did.
closet anti-semitism is more disgusting than cynicism
Israel threads always bring it out. "Dude, I'm not anti-semetic because I'm calling for the dismantlement of Israel..."
Hi Ben.
Who called for the dissolution of Israel? The founders of Israel knew what they were doing --"facts on the ground" always do end up getting respect because changing them completely is seldom an option.
Are the people at Tikkun and at Jewish Voices for Peace calling for the dissolution of Israel? Is Normon Solomon? Was Harold Pinter? Is Noam Chomsky? Is Jennifer Loewenstein? Are the Israeli Jews marching through Tel Aviv in support of the Palestinians calling for the destruction of Israel?
Did you know that lots of Zionists worked with the Nazi's because they had the shared goal of removing all the Jews from Europe? Some Zionists helped the Nazi's make lists of Jews, seize their property, and detain them in exchange for safe passage to Palestine.
One dude says "anti-Semitism" and all the sudden the Israel haters can say whatever outlandish shit they want and claim they're being "silenced" by the claim of anti-Semitism. shit is beyond ironic that that occasional ill-advised charge of anti-Semitism actually allows the haters a cover for whatever they wanna say.
people need to check themselves with the anti-Semitism charge. that said, when a country is singled out among far, far greater human rights abusers for doing what is (comparatively) far less destructive (e.g. bad month in Gaza = bad day in Sudan) and yet which nonetheless has (arguably) a far stronger justification for doing what it's doing (territory, historical rights, security, etc. vs. wanton destruction of entire towns for political gain a la Zimbabwe, Syria, etc.), and this country HAPPENS to be the nation-state of a people who's whole history has been one of being singled out....well, let's just say I don't always agree with the anti-Semitism charge, but you'd be a fool not to at least understand and acknowledge where it comes from.
One dude says "anti-Semitism" and all the sudden the Israel haters can say whatever outlandish shit they want and claim they're being "silenced" by the claim of anti-Semitism. shit is beyond ironic that that occasional ill-advised charge of anti-Semitism actually allows the haters a cover for whatever they wanna say.
people need to check themselves with the anti-Semitism charge. that said, when a country is singled out among far, far greater human rights abusers for doing what is (comparatively) far less destructive (e.g. bad month in Gaza = bad day in Sudan) and yet which nonetheless has (arguably) a far stronger justification for doing what it's doing (territory, historical rights, security, etc. vs. wanton destruction of entire towns for political gain a la Zimbabwe, Syria, etc.), and this country HAPPENS to be the nation-state of a people who's whole history has been one of being singled out....well, let's just say I don't always agree with the anti-Semitism charge, but you'd be a fool not to at least understand and acknowledge where it comes from.
Hi Cosmo.
And you would be a fool not to realize that the United States doesn't have a "special relationship" with the Sudan, so your example is ludicrous.
It's also worth pointing out that the elections have something to do with the assault on Gaza. Netanyahu is leading in the polls and Labor needs to be seen as "tough" in order to compete.
Clinton did something similar with Ricky Ray Rector. It's an old tactic..
Comments
That being said I still think there are areas where progress could be made. All new settlements need to be torn down and the illegitimate usurping of land by Israelis needs to be addressed. Even Bush and company recommended Israel do the aforementioned. In an ideal world US leaders could threaten to reduce Israeli aid if certain measures aren't being adhered to.
And I don't think the link between Hamas and Iran goes beyond the realm of opportunism. Hamas receives aid from Iran but it isn't comparable to the aid Hezbollah receives from Iran. Factor in the differences in religion and ethnicity and the gulf between Hamas and Iran only widens.
Not to derail this thread but a few week ago on Talk of the Nation there was conversation about Israel that was pretty good.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97960773
Land that people live on being stolen every single day? Homeless children starving to death?
Yes it's simple. Just look at the bodies. No justification.
Here's a question though: what do you think would happen if the Palestinians had some type of non-violent revolutionary a la MLK or Ghandi to lead the cause of the refugees? Would the walls of Gaza and the West Bank come crashing down soon after or would the world decide there's nothing exciting left to see?
Dude, I was being sarcastic! Sorry if it wasn't evident. I was attempting to satirise the incredibly patronising tone taken by so many well-meaning goofs who speak about Palestineans monolothically as innocent and noble simple folk without any meaningful agency.
The world is full of people who have given up on freeing Mumia, find the slaughter in Sudan too complicated and foreign, Tibetan independence too passe, globalisation too nebulous, but long for a cause-celebre to call their own. So, they choose the Palestieans. Patronising as anything and totally inane. But hey, lefty cred is lefty cred. Now let's go to a rally, chant some slogans, drink a 40, and get laid.
Two millenia vs. fifty years. Gimme a f*cking break.
Hamas tried their hand at governing and not only failed but barely showed a passing interest. Now they've gone back to fighting, which is what they want and do best. Israel is pretty much being Israel.
In other news, a dog bit a man.
This all started because the European Jews decided to "solve the Jewish question" by acting in collusion with colonial powers in order to set up a state in a land that was already populated.
Who aside a zealot can argue the resulting bloodshed is justified because the Jews need to return to their biblical homeland?
I know this doesn't point to any easy answer. 50 years of damage have already been done, but I think it helps to point out that the modern state of Israel is and was a terrible idea.
Hamas is one of monsters that this idea created.
It really is that simple.
I need to go twist some nobs and bang out. Till next year strut..
Homeless children starve to death in Palestine? Shit man. And my heart was breaking for orphans in Africa. By contrast they live like kings!
I agree. Zionist Jews have known for decades that all they needed to do was change "the facts on the ground" and the inherently conservative nature of people in power would lead to Israel getting everything it wanted. Ask David Ben-Gurion --he said as much quite plainly on several occasions. Benny Morris, too. And many other Israelis, who tend to be much more open about Israel's aims and tactics.
Arafat certainly DID do the right thing. The agreement was absolute bullshit.
Apartheid wasn't shit compared to what's going on in gaza, read up on your ups son.
Talk about patronising! People who support the Palestinians do it SOLELY to maintain their lefty cred.
Your blinkered cynicism is thoroughly disgusting.
Agreed. So?
lie.
lie.
And accusing anyone who criticizes Israel of being anti-semitic is lamer than both.
and now for a little cross pollination from the Woody Allen thread:
"I may hate myself, but not because I'm a Jew."
Israel threads always bring it out. "Dude, I'm not anti-semetic because I'm calling for the dismantlement of Israel..."
Hi Ben.
Who called for the dissolution of Israel? The founders of Israel knew what they were doing --"facts on the ground" always do end up getting respect because changing them completely is seldom an option.
Are the people at Tikkun and at Jewish Voices for Peace calling for the dissolution of Israel? Is Normon Solomon? Was Harold Pinter? Is Noam Chomsky? Is Jennifer Loewenstein? Are the Israeli Jews marching through Tel Aviv in support of the Palestinians calling for the destruction of Israel?
YOU WANT TO LABEL ME??? FOR STICKING UP FOR THE DEAD???
Some history is left out of the textbooks.
people need to check themselves with the anti-Semitism charge. that said, when a country is singled out among far, far greater human rights abusers for doing what is (comparatively) far less destructive (e.g. bad month in Gaza = bad day in Sudan) and yet which nonetheless has (arguably) a far stronger justification for doing what it's doing (territory, historical rights, security, etc. vs. wanton destruction of entire towns for political gain a la Zimbabwe, Syria, etc.), and this country HAPPENS to be the nation-state of a people who's whole history has been one of being singled out....well, let's just say I don't always agree with the anti-Semitism charge, but you'd be a fool not to at least understand and acknowledge where it comes from.
Hi Cosmo.
And you would be a fool not to realize that the United States doesn't have a "special relationship" with the Sudan, so your example is ludicrous.
Clinton did something similar with Ricky Ray Rector. It's an old tactic..