That complicity pales in comparison to the complicity of, say, virtually the entire rest of the world.
Dr. Rudolf Kastner was only one example of a multitude of Jewish leaders that aided the Nazis. The estimate is that at least half of the Jews that died in the holocaust could have lived if it wasn't for the help of our Jewish leaders.
"In Amsterdam and in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, to secure money from the deportees to defray the expenses of their deportation and extermination, to keep track of vacated apartments, to supply police forces to help seize Jews and get them on trains, until, as a last gesture, they handed over the assets of the Jewish community in good order for final confiscation. They distributed the Yellow Star badges, and sometimes, as in Warsaw, "the sale of the armbands of cloth and fancy plastic armbands which were washable."
-Page 118, Eichmann In Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt
Admittedly, these leaders were Zionist and non-Zionist alike, but it still leads me to a distrust of anyone acting in the name of the entire Jewish community.
That complicity pales in comparison to the complicity of, say, virtually the entire rest of the world.
Dr. Rudolf Kastner was only one example of a multitude of Jewish leaders that aided the Nazis. The estimate is that at least half of the Jews that died in the holocaust could have lived if it wasn't for the help of our Jewish leaders.
"In Amsterdam and in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, to secure money from the deportees to defray the expenses of their deportation and extermination, to keep track of vacated apartments, to supply police forces to help seize Jews and get them on trains, until, as a last gesture, they handed over the assets of the Jewish community in good order for final confiscation. They distributed the Yellow Star badges, and sometimes, as in Warsaw, "the sale of the armbands of cloth and fancy plastic armbands which were washable."
-Page 118, Eichmann In Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt
Admittedly, these leaders were Zionist and non-Zionist alike, but it still leads me to a distrust of anyone acting in the name of the entire Jewish community.
I know all about Kastner. As for half the perished Jews being the fault of Zionists, I doubt seriously that you can produce a reliable source.
Had the United States opened its borders to more refugees, hundreds of thousands of Jews could have been saved. There's a lot of complicity to go around.
Hannah Arendt -deeply in love with a defender of Nazism- is a pretty good example of how difficult it is to untangle Jewish-German relations at that particular point in history.
Something tells me you're on the "I like to make shit up route" very rarely have I seen a synagogue flying any country's flag. I'm not going to argue you're ethnic & historical heritage but I will say that you're views show you're prejudices in a obvious way.
1. I admit to hyperbole. Most synagogues don't have an Israeli flag out front. They're too classy for that. They usually have it in a prominent location somewhere inside. On the magazine rack elsewhere in the building you'll find pamphlets on Brithright Israel, and other Zionist literature.
I haven't made any survey of temples. I'm speaking from my own experience. They tried to sell us on Birthright Israel every year at my Jewish Sunday School, and I went to the most liberal congregation possible. We were so far left to the point that we weren't even affiliated with the reform movement, in the interests of intellectual freedom. In college I tried to go to the Hillel House for passover and got a half hour long lecture about needing to visit the holy land. A year later they made a HUMONGOUS Israeli flag a permanent feature of their buildings facade.
2.
It is a shame that it can not be discussed with some form of civility, rather than resorting to character attacks and passive aggressive name calling.
I would not call sweeping generalizations that play directly into the systematic baiting of Jews and anti-Semitic rhetoric "civil discussion." Sorry, Jack.
I'm trying to figure out the linear process of how this converation devolved into how Zionists and/or the Zionist movement as a whole was complicit in the Holocaust, which is what you are alluding to. Pretty much. Right? Right.
I'm only Jew baiting or espousing anti-semitic rhetoric if you conflate Zionism, Israel and Judaism. The reality is that all three things have separate identities. The first is worth criticizing. The second is a land that has historically been populated by all sorts of people. The third is a religious faith that is not up for critique.
Do you guys only argue in character assassination?
Where do you see that in my posts?
Your arguments require a helluva lot of hindsight. If I were a Zionist I certainly would have tried negotiating with the Nazis. You wouldn't have? Is it better to stand on principle and let EVERYBODY die? I agree that some of the decisions Zionists made then are unseemly or worse --poor and Eastern European Jews had a much worse chance of being the ones whose safe passage was secured. But not all the contacts between Zionists and Nazis were that troubling.
"You guys" or me? How have I "assassinated" your character?
I'm just working here on other shit so I have some time to argue on the internet about Nazis with some random anonymous dude.
Character assassination is about calling someone an asshole idiot instead of addressing their ideas. Or calling someone anti-semetic because they criticize Israel. That's the oldest play out of the "let's have an Israel argument" handbook.
I was also addressing Artisan Butter's allusions to Arendt's relationship to Hiedegger. It comes off as trying to discredit her writing rather than addressing the issues raised in her work.
I was also addressing Artisan Butter's allusions to Arendt's relationship to Hiedegger. It comes off as trying to discredit her writing rather than addressing the issues raised in her work.
Listen... I am deeply opposed to Zionism. But the Zionists' collaboration with the Nazis is not a good example of what was wrong with Zionism, and is nothing like the biggest blot on that ideology and movement. Much of it was simple realpolitik. You seem to be the kind of person who thinks Thomas Jefferson was an IRREDEEMABLY BAD person because he slept with Sally Hemings. But as L.P. Hartley famously wrote, "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." Assigning blame without even attempting to take historical distance and circumstance into account is juvenile. Which is not to say that you should REFRAIN from blame. Just don't think it's simple.
My comment on Arendt was not meant to discredit her writings. But savor the sad irony of the passages you quoted being written by someone who even then remained enamoured of... a Nazi. Sad irony, dude. Sad.
Do you guys only argue in character assassination?
Where do you see that in my posts?
Your arguments require a helluva lot of hindsight. If I were a Zionist I certainly would have tried negotiating with the Nazis. You wouldn't have? Is it better to stand on principle and let EVERYBODY die? I agree that some of the decisions Zionists made then are unseemly or worse --poor and Eastern European Jews had a much worse chance of being the ones whose safe passage was secured. But not all the contacts between Zionists and Nazis were that troubling.
Nearly everybody did die. That was the cost of cooperation.
Arendt argues that resistance would have been crippling to the "final solution" because the Nazi's did not have the resources to force the genocide.
Short of resistance, they could have refused to make a devil's bargain. This would have left individual Jewish communities to decide to resist or not on their own accord. The genocide effort would have been hampered greatly because the Nazi's would have had to do all the propaganda, organization, and detainment themselves.
However the Jewish leaders bought into fear. They believed the myth of power and for this cowardice must take some of the responsibility for the paralyzing scale of the holocaust.
When we say "never again." It shouldn't only mean a refusal to be a bystandard to genocide, but also a resolve to resist the abuse of power when it visits us directly.
I was also addressing Artisan Butter's allusions to Arendt's relationship to Hiedegger. It comes off as trying to discredit her writing rather than addressing the issues raised in her work.
Listen... I am deeply opposed to Zionism. But the Zionists' collaboration with the Nazis is not a good example of what was wrong with Zionism, and is nothing like the biggest blot on that ideology and movement. Much of it was simple realpolitik. You seem to be the kind of person who thinks Thomas Jefferson was an IRREDEEMABLY BAD person because he slept with Sally Hemings. But as L.P. Hartley famously wrote, "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." Assigning blame without even attempting to take historical distance and circumstance into account is juvenile. Which is not to say that you should REFRAIN from blame. Just don't think it's simple.
My comment on Arendt was not meant to discredit her writings. But savor the sad irony of the passages you quoted being written by someone who even then remained enamoured of... a Nazi. Sad irony, dude. Sad.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think all abuses of power and ideology are indicative of the problems inherent in power and ideology.
I don't think Jefferson was irredeemably bad for sleeping with Sally Hemmings. It was status-quo for the time, and it's a testament to the evils that accompany slave holding - just as state sponsored violence is an evil that accompanies fierce nationalism. The Nazi and the Zionists were on the same page because they were both fascistic. Nazi's wanted to clear room for a pure Aryan homeland. Now Jews and Palestinians are locked in a deadly conflict over a Jewish desire to clear room for a Jewish homeland. To me that is a sad, sad irony.
They believed the myth of power and for this cowardice must take some of the responsibility for the paralyzing scale of the holocaust.
Wow
To be extra clear here: I'm talking about those who actively aided the Nazi's to save their own asses. Selling someone else out, especially ones own people, in order to avoid ones own punishment is the lowest possible decision that one can make.
The Nazi and the Zionists were on the same page because they were both fascistic.
Could you explain this pleez?
Radical nationalism is fascist. People should always be more important than states. When you invert that equation you start going in a fascist direction.
I gotta go. By the time I check back again tomorrow I expect someone to have been called: racist, naive, dumbfuck, and retard. But it's all good. I enjoy the crassness and craziness of this videogame.
I also appreciate all the constructive arguments up in here. These kind of debates help sharpen me up, and make me realize what I know and where I'm stretching.
And Cosmo: I just listened to your Raphael Saadiq mix. It was so good I forwarded it to this wonderful young woman I know, along with an invite for dinner. She accepted the invitation. So thank you doubly.
And Cosmo: I just listened to your Raphael Saadiq mix. It was so good I forwarded it to this wonderful young woman I know, along with an invite for dinner. She accepted the invitation. So thank you doubly.
LOL
"Not only did I offend you, but I stole from you too."
Nearly everybody did die. That was the cost of cooperation.
Arendt argues that resistance would have been crippling to the "final solution" because the Nazi's did not have the resources to force the genocide.
Short of resistance, they could have refused to make a devil's bargain. This would have left individual Jewish communities to decide to resist or not on their own accord. The genocide effort would have been hampered greatly because the Nazi's would have had to do all the propaganda, organization, and detainment themselves.
However the Jewish leaders bought into fear. They believed the myth of power and for this cowardice must take some of the responsibility for the paralyzing scale of the holocaust.
When we say "never again." It shouldn't only mean a refusal to be a bystandard to genocide, but also a resolve to resist the abuse of power when it visits us directly.
this rates among the most offensive and ignorant things I've ever read on the strut. the very idea of comparing the few Zionist attempts to save Jews by negotiating with the Nazis with the YEARS of underground resistance on the part of the ghetto fighters, the partizans, the loyal service of thousands of Jews to the allied forces, the Jewish Agency's clandestine smuggling and sabotage operations, not to mention the Warsaw Ghetto uprising (the first civilian uprising against the Nazi machine in the history of the war), etc....is BEYOND ridiculous. that's the "ignorant" part.
the "offensive" part is much simpler: you blame the Jews (an unarmed civilian population) for not doing more against a military machine so powerful that it took over the entirety of Europe. I can't conceive of a more offensive thing to say about 6 million dead civilians, that they share part of the blame for not resisting more. tell that to a rape victim; I dare you you sick F*ck.
and before you throw some more quotes at me you f*cking toy please to understand: I've read Arendt. I'm intimately familiar with the Kastner Affair. And I've probably forgotten more about the Shoah (not to mention modern history generally) than you have known or will ever know.
. I'm pretty much sick of the whole damn thing and if Israel and Hamas want to wipe each other off the face of the map, then good for them. But the phrase "don't start none, won't be none" applies.
as interested as i am in this, i try to stay away from engaging in topics like this.
This has been going on long before what happened in munich...but can somebody please remind me...what and how was it that israel responded to this act ?
my useless 2 cents: i would like to see the day when the u.s. smokes its last cigarette and finally gets out of bed with israel.
then again, who are we ( u.s.a ) and how are we any different ?
when will it ever end ? it wont. these discussions are the same every time.
"According to a report in Firas Press, quoting the "Conscience Foundation for Human Rights" in the Gaza Strip, so far there have been 368 deaths. Of those, 36 have been children and 9 women . . . Half of Gazans are 17 or under. The remainng half woul be roughly 50% female. For childrento be less than 10 % those killed, and adult women roughly 2.5% indicates an impressive rate of avoiding civilian casualties."
I gotta go. By the time I check back again tomorrow I expect someone to have been called: racist, naive, dumbfuck, and retard. But it's all good. I enjoy the crassness and craziness of this videogame.
I also appreciate all the constructive arguments up in here. These kind of debates help sharpen me up, and make me realize what I know and where I'm stretching.
And Cosmo: I just listened to your Raphael Saadiq mix. It was so good I forwarded it to this wonderful young woman I know, along with an invite for dinner. She accepted the invitation. So thank you doubly.
this rates among the most offensive and ignorant things I've ever read on the strut[/b]. the very idea of comparing the few Zionist attempts to save Jews by negotiating with the Nazis with the YEARS of underground resistance on the part of the ghetto fighters, the partizans, the loyal service of thousands of Jews to the allied forces, the Jewish Agency's clandestine smuggling and sabotage operations, not to mention the Warsaw Ghetto uprising (the first civilian uprising against the Nazi machine in the history of the war), etc....is BEYOND ridiculous. that's the "ignorant" part.
the "offensive" part is much simpler: you blame the Jews (an unarmed civilian population) for not doing more against a military machine so powerful that it took over the entirety of Europe. I can't conceive of a more offensive thing to say about 6 million dead civilians, that they share part of the blame for not resisting more. tell that to a rape victim; I dare you you sick F*ck.
and before you throw some more quotes at me you f*cking toy please to understand: I've read Arendt. I'm intimately familiar with the Kastner Affair. And I've probably forgotten more about the Shoah (not to mention modern history generally) than you have known or will ever know.
in short: F*ck. OFF.
Guy's lack of empathy is really a marvel. It's inconceivable to me that anyone but the most wingnutty could accuse survivors and the dead of a failure of courage in the face of the Nazi war machine. "Hey grandma, you really betrayed my generation by not showing more strength and resolve in Auschwitz. I played Wolfenstein growing up, I know what it was like. Not cool. No hugs for you today."
Nearly everybody did die. That was the cost of cooperation.
Arendt argues that resistance would have been crippling to the "final solution" because the Nazi's did not have the resources to force the genocide.
Short of resistance, they could have refused to make a devil's bargain. This would have left individual Jewish communities to decide to resist or not on their own accord. The genocide effort would have been hampered greatly because the Nazi's would have had to do all the propaganda, organization, and detainment themselves.
However the Jewish leaders bought into fear. They believed the myth of power and for this cowardice must take some of the responsibility for the paralyzing scale of the holocaust.
When we say "never again." It shouldn't only mean a refusal to be a bystandard to genocide, but also a resolve to resist the abuse of power when it visits us directly.
this rates among the most offensive and ignorant things I've ever read on the strut. the very idea of comparing the few Zionist attempts to save Jews by negotiating with the Nazis with the YEARS of underground resistance on the part of the ghetto fighters, the partizans, the loyal service of thousands of Jews to the allied forces, the Jewish Agency's clandestine smuggling and sabotage operations, not to mention the Warsaw Ghetto uprising (the first civilian uprising against the Nazi machine in the history of the war), etc....is BEYOND ridiculous. that's the "ignorant" part.
the "offensive" part is much simpler: you blame the Jews (an unarmed civilian population) for not doing more against a military machine so powerful that it took over the entirety of Europe. I can't conceive of a more offensive thing to say about 6 million dead civilians, that they share part of the blame for not resisting more. tell that to a rape victim; I dare you you sick F*ck.
and before you throw some more quotes at me you f*cking toy please to understand: I've read Arendt. I'm intimately familiar with the Kastner Affair. And I've probably forgotten more about the Shoah (not to mention modern history generally) than you have known or will ever know.
in short: F*ck. OFF.
Blaming victims was not my intention. I wasn't specific enough in that posting above, so let me try to clarify here:
I'm criticizing those who helped the Nazi's kill their own people in order to save themselves and their friends and family. This is the darkest and most troubling chapter of the Jewish history of the holocaust, and to gloss over it is to miss a very important lesson.
There aren't guilty populations and innocent populations. Just as there were many Africans that participated in the Atlantic slave trade for personal gain. These actions are examples of the ugliest and most selfish aspects of human nature. They should be roundly condemned and in condemning these actions we attest to the humanitarian principle that one cannot morally sacrifice someone else life to save oneself.
We also attest to the importance of standing together. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising, along with all the other examples of resistance that you mentioned are the flip side of this coin. They are the kind of unity that is responsible for all the social justice in the world. They come from the basis of morality. Saying that all humans have basic un-alienable rights and there is no justification for the violation of these rights.
I see Israel's policy against the Palestinian as the kind of actions that cannot be justified. If this is a solution to the problem, then the whole equation needs to be changed.
Comments
Dr. Rudolf Kastner was only one example of a multitude of Jewish leaders that aided the Nazis. The estimate is that at least half of the Jews that died in the holocaust could have lived if it wasn't for the help of our Jewish leaders.
"In Amsterdam and in Warsaw, in Berlin as in Budapest, Jewish officials could be trusted to compile the lists of persons and of their property, to secure money from the deportees to defray the expenses of their deportation and extermination, to keep track of vacated apartments, to supply police forces to help seize Jews and get them on trains, until, as a last gesture, they handed over the assets of the Jewish community in good order for final confiscation. They distributed the Yellow Star badges, and sometimes, as in Warsaw, "the sale of the armbands of cloth and fancy plastic armbands which were washable."
-Page 118, Eichmann In Jerusalem, Hannah Arendt
Admittedly, these leaders were Zionist and non-Zionist alike, but it still leads me to a distrust of anyone acting in the name of the entire Jewish community.
I know all about Kastner. As for half the perished Jews being the fault of Zionists, I doubt seriously that you can produce a reliable source.
Had the United States opened its borders to more refugees, hundreds of thousands of Jews could have been saved. There's a lot of complicity to go around.
Hannah Arendt -deeply in love with a defender of Nazism- is a pretty good example of how difficult it is to untangle Jewish-German relations at that particular point in history.
I was looking for the "roll eyes" thing but this isn't worthy of that. You're either the worlds biggest idiot or asshole, or both.
Why do I keep posting in this thread?
edit*
Artisan Butter, I appreciate what you're bringing to this thread.
1. I admit to hyperbole. Most synagogues don't have an Israeli flag out front. They're too classy for that. They usually have it in a prominent location somewhere inside. On the magazine rack elsewhere in the building you'll find pamphlets on Brithright Israel, and other Zionist literature.
I haven't made any survey of temples. I'm speaking from my own experience. They tried to sell us on Birthright Israel every year at my Jewish Sunday School, and I went to the most liberal congregation possible. We were so far left to the point that we weren't even affiliated with the reform movement, in the interests of intellectual freedom. In college I tried to go to the Hillel House for passover and got a half hour long lecture about needing to visit the holy land. A year later they made a HUMONGOUS Israeli flag a permanent feature of their buildings facade.
2.
I'm trying to figure out the linear process of how this converation devolved into how Zionists and/or the Zionist movement as a whole was complicit in the Holocaust, which is what you are alluding to. Pretty much. Right? Right.
I'm just working here on other shit so I have some time to argue on the internet about Nazis with some random anonymous dude.
Where do you see that in my posts?
Your arguments require a helluva lot of hindsight. If I were a Zionist I certainly would have tried negotiating with the Nazis. You wouldn't have? Is it better to stand on principle and let EVERYBODY die? I agree that some of the decisions Zionists made then are unseemly or worse --poor and Eastern European Jews had a much worse chance of being the ones whose safe passage was secured. But not all the contacts between Zionists and Nazis were that troubling.
Character assassination is about calling someone an asshole idiot instead of addressing their ideas. Or calling someone anti-semetic because they criticize Israel. That's the oldest play out of the "let's have an Israel argument" handbook.
I was also addressing Artisan Butter's allusions to Arendt's relationship to Hiedegger. It comes off as trying to discredit her writing rather than addressing the issues raised in her work.
Listen... I am deeply opposed to Zionism. But the Zionists' collaboration with the Nazis is not a good example of what was wrong with Zionism, and is nothing like the biggest blot on that ideology and movement. Much of it was simple realpolitik. You seem to be the kind of person who thinks Thomas Jefferson was an IRREDEEMABLY BAD person because he slept with Sally Hemings. But as L.P. Hartley famously wrote, "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." Assigning blame without even attempting to take historical distance and circumstance into account is juvenile. Which is not to say that you should REFRAIN from blame. Just don't think it's simple.
My comment on Arendt was not meant to discredit her writings. But savor the sad irony of the passages you quoted being written by someone who even then remained enamoured of... a Nazi. Sad irony, dude. Sad.
Nearly everybody did die. That was the cost of cooperation.
Arendt argues that resistance would have been crippling to the "final solution" because the Nazi's did not have the resources to force the genocide.
Short of resistance, they could have refused to make a devil's bargain. This would have left individual Jewish communities to decide to resist or not on their own accord. The genocide effort would have been hampered greatly because the Nazi's would have had to do all the propaganda, organization, and detainment themselves.
However the Jewish leaders bought into fear. They believed the myth of power and for this cowardice must take some of the responsibility for the paralyzing scale of the holocaust.
When we say "never again." It shouldn't only mean a refusal to be a bystandard to genocide, but also a resolve to resist the abuse of power when it visits us directly.
Wow
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. I think all abuses of power and ideology are indicative of the problems inherent in power and ideology.
I don't think Jefferson was irredeemably bad for sleeping with Sally Hemmings. It was status-quo for the time, and it's a testament to the evils that accompany slave holding - just as state sponsored violence is an evil that accompanies fierce nationalism. The Nazi and the Zionists were on the same page because they were both fascistic. Nazi's wanted to clear room for a pure Aryan homeland. Now Jews and Palestinians are locked in a deadly conflict over a Jewish desire to clear room for a Jewish homeland. To me that is a sad, sad irony.
Could you explain this pleez?
To be extra clear here: I'm talking about those who actively aided the Nazi's to save their own asses. Selling someone else out, especially ones own people, in order to avoid ones own punishment is the lowest possible decision that one can make.
Radical nationalism is fascist. People should always be more important than states. When you invert that equation you start going in a fascist direction.
Nah, I'm off to drink whiskey with my peeps. Drinking at a house without records is hard!
Well, not REALLY hard.
I also appreciate all the constructive arguments up in here. These kind of debates help sharpen me up, and make me realize what I know and where I'm stretching.
And Cosmo: I just listened to your Raphael Saadiq mix. It was so good I forwarded it to this wonderful young woman I know, along with an invite for dinner. She accepted the invitation. So thank you doubly.
LOL
"Not only did I offend you, but I stole from you too."
This place is bonkers today.
this rates among the most offensive and ignorant things I've ever read on the strut. the very idea of comparing the few Zionist attempts to save Jews by negotiating with the Nazis with the YEARS of underground resistance on the part of the ghetto fighters, the partizans, the loyal service of thousands of Jews to the allied forces, the Jewish Agency's clandestine smuggling and sabotage operations, not to mention the Warsaw Ghetto uprising (the first civilian uprising against the Nazi machine in the history of the war), etc....is BEYOND ridiculous. that's the "ignorant" part.
the "offensive" part is much simpler: you blame the Jews (an unarmed civilian population) for not doing more against a military machine so powerful that it took over the entirety of Europe. I can't conceive of a more offensive thing to say about 6 million dead civilians, that they share part of the blame for not resisting more. tell that to a rape victim; I dare you you sick F*ck.
and before you throw some more quotes at me you f*cking toy please to understand: I've read Arendt. I'm intimately familiar with the Kastner Affair. And I've probably forgotten more about the Shoah (not to mention modern history generally) than you have known or will ever know.
in short: F*ck. OFF.
toy poaster of 2008 award. just under the wire.
as interested as i am in this, i try to stay away from engaging in topics like this.
This has been going on long before what happened in munich...but can somebody please remind me...what and how was it that israel responded to this act ?
my useless 2 cents: i would like to see the day when the u.s. smokes its last cigarette and finally gets out of bed with israel.
then again, who are we ( u.s.a ) and how are we any different ?
when will it ever end ? it wont. these discussions are the same every time.
"According to a report in Firas Press, quoting the "Conscience Foundation for Human Rights" in the Gaza Strip, so far there have been 368 deaths. Of those, 36 have been children and 9 women . . . Half of Gazans are 17 or under. The remainng half woul be roughly 50% female. For childrento be less than 10 % those killed, and adult women roughly 2.5% indicates an impressive rate of avoiding civilian casualties."
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/12/women-and-children-deaths-pretty-low.html
as reliable a source as any you've provided.
Right back at ya.
F*ck you you racist, naive, dumbfuck.
and retard.
Guy's lack of empathy is really a marvel. It's inconceivable to me that anyone but the most wingnutty could accuse survivors and the dead of a failure of courage in the face of the Nazi war machine. "Hey grandma, you really betrayed my generation by not showing more strength and resolve in Auschwitz. I played Wolfenstein growing up, I know what it was like. Not cool. No hugs for you today."
Blaming victims was not my intention. I wasn't specific enough in that posting above, so let me try to clarify here:
I'm criticizing those who helped the Nazi's kill their own people in order to save themselves and their friends and family. This is the darkest and most troubling chapter of the Jewish history of the holocaust, and to gloss over it is to miss a very important lesson.
There aren't guilty populations and innocent populations. Just as there were many Africans that participated in the Atlantic slave trade for personal gain. These actions are examples of the ugliest and most selfish aspects of human nature. They should be roundly condemned and in condemning these actions we attest to the humanitarian principle that one cannot morally sacrifice someone else life to save oneself.
We also attest to the importance of standing together. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising, along with all the other examples of resistance that you mentioned are the flip side of this coin. They are the kind of unity that is responsible for all the social justice in the world. They come from the basis of morality. Saying that all humans have basic un-alienable rights and there is no justification for the violation of these rights.
I see Israel's policy against the Palestinian as the kind of actions that cannot be justified. If this is a solution to the problem, then the whole equation needs to be changed.