HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The problem with your posts is that children are dying and you seem more worried about the so-called nuanced arguments you can derive from people merely holding up so-called anti-Semite signs.
while you bravely change your avatar...
Well, the boycotting of Israeli goods by US citizens has become illegal...so all I have left is to hold up signs. Like this one...
The police will come and arrest you if you do not buy Israeli goods.
lol I know huh. that must be an Austin-specific statute....
> North Kansas City company settles > charge related to boycott of Israel > > by Dan Margolies, Kansas City Star > June 25, 2003 > > Cook Composites and Polymers Co. has agreed to pay a $6,000 fine to > settle charges that it violated Commerce Department regulations aimed > at countering the Arab boycott of Israel. > > The department's Bureau of Industry and Security had charged that, in > response to a request from a customer in Bahrain, Cook had furnished > information stating that the goods being shipped were not of Israeli > origin and did not contain Israeli materials. > > The bureau also charged that Cook had failed to report its receipt of > the request. > > Cook, of North Kansas City, neither admitted nor denied the > allegations, but agreed to pay the $6,000 civil penalty. > > The anti-boycott provisions bar U.S. companies from providing > information about their business relationships with Israel. They also > require that receipt of boycott requests be reported to the Bureau of > Industry and Security, formerly known as the Bureau of Export > Administration. > > In a statement released at the time by the department, Commerce > Undersecretary for Industry and Security Kenneth Juster reminded > American companies that the "U.S. government is strongly opposed to > restrictive trade practices or boycotts targeted against Israel." > > Knowing violators of the anti-boycott provisions face fines of up to > $50,000, or five times the value of the exports at issue, and possible > imprisonment. Offenders can also be denied export privileges. > > The Bureau of Industry and Security says it has imposed more than $26 > million in fines for violations of the provisions.
yeah, start with the Academic Boycott. its where Jewish Israeli professors, traditionally the backbone of the anti-occupation movement within Israel, are denied invitations to symposiums and conferences abroad and are refused publication of their work in foreign journals. genius move.
You are the Jewish equivalent of a John Birch Society member. You shouldn't take that as an insult --after all, that's what you ARE. Embrace it.
Dude....seriously....you come here stating as fact how other people are racist and of course that you're not.
Argue the issue, but you can shove that other stuff up your pseudo-intellectual pompous ass.
The problem with your posts is that children are dying and you seem more worried about the so-called nuanced arguments you can derive from people merely holding up so-called anti-Semite signs.
while you bravely change your avatar...
Well, the boycotting of Israeli goods by US citizens has become illegal...so all I have left is to hold up signs. Like this one...
The police will come and arrest you if you do not buy Israeli goods.
lol I know huh. that must be an Austin-specific statute....
> North Kansas City company settles > charge related to boycott of Israel > > by Dan Margolies, Kansas City Star > June 25, 2003 > > Cook Composites and Polymers Co. has agreed to pay a $6,000 fine to > settle charges that it violated Commerce Department regulations aimed > at countering the Arab boycott of Israel. > > The department's Bureau of Industry and Security had charged that, in > response to a request from a customer in Bahrain, Cook had furnished > information stating that the goods being shipped were not of Israeli > origin and did not contain Israeli materials. > > The bureau also charged that Cook had failed to report its receipt of > the request. > > Cook, of North Kansas City, neither admitted nor denied the > allegations, but agreed to pay the $6,000 civil penalty. > > The anti-boycott provisions bar U.S. companies from providing > information about their business relationships with Israel. They also > require that receipt of boycott requests be reported to the Bureau of > Industry and Security, formerly known as the Bureau of Export > Administration. > > In a statement released at the time by the department, Commerce > Undersecretary for Industry and Security Kenneth Juster reminded > American companies that the "U.S. government is strongly opposed to > restrictive trade practices or boycotts targeted against Israel." > > Knowing violators of the anti-boycott provisions face fines of up to > $50,000, or five times the value of the exports at issue, and possible > imprisonment. Offenders can also be denied export privileges. > > The Bureau of Industry and Security says it has imposed more than $26 > million in fines for violations of the provisions.
the US has import-export regulations that, interestingly enough, were enacted originally (as the article correctly states) to COUNTER the boycott that the Arabs started. restrictions exist for a host of countries, not only Israel.
you were suggesting individual US citizens are somehow barred from boycotting Israeli goods in their purchases. totally false.
(Again, I don't expect you to understand the difference.)
Unlike the people of Israel who are forced to join the army for 2 years and kill Palestinians (or they face jail...)
WOW
Although Israel has a universal draft, many Israelis do not serve in the military for various reasons. Israeli Arabs are not drafted, though they may enlist, and small numbers serve voluntarily. Haredi Jews are exempt so long as they study in yeshivas, based on an arrangement worked out with David Ben-Gurion in 1948, though small numbers of them do serve. Orthodox women can avoid service on the basis of their religion upon filing certain paperwork. After becoming officially exempt, religious women may choose to do national service work instead, although this is not required. Also, many people who are "unfit" or "unqualified", either mentally or physically, are also exempt. Military service can often be postponed for further education???either college or university, or technical studies. Finally, a number of people refuse to serve because of pacifist views, or refuse certain orders based on their disagreement with government policy.
Some distinguish between refusal to serve in the military because of a pacifist world view that rejects any manifestation of violence and encompasses a refusal to submit to compulsory military service in any form, and partial refusal to serve, such as the Courage to Refuse who "do their reserve duty wherever and whenever they are summoned, but refuse to serve in the occupied territories."[2] The diverse range of opinions regarding the refusal to serve is the reason why there is no single umbrella organization that encompasses all groups of refusers. While most instances of refusal to serve have historically been found among left-leaning Israelis, there is a rapidly expanding awareness among right-wing soldiers to refuse orders to evict Jews from settlements in the West Bank (and formerly in the Gaza Strip). Contemporary instances of refusal to serve occur among individuals and in groups. Some claim that the rise in instances of soldiers refusing to serve, as well as the gradual shift in public opinion regarding the phenomenon, has been influenced by the growing politicization of the IDF.
In February 2004, Israeli Chief of Personnel Major-General Gil Regev told a Knesset committee that the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the territories had dramatically decreased in 2003 despite the increase in the number of high-profile refusals. He said that eighteen reserve soldiers and eight officers had been imprisoned for refusal in 2003 compared to 100 reservists and 29 officers in 2002, a decrease of 80%. Members of the refusers' organization Yesh Gvul claimed in reply that actually 76 people, including eleven officers, had been jailed for refusal in 2003. They also said that 79 soldiers and eighteen officers had added their names to the Courage to Refuse letter in 2003, and that the number of high-school refuseniks had risen to 500.
The first well-known instance of an individual refusing to serve in the IDF occurred in 1954 when Amnon Zichroni, a lawyer, asked to be released from military service as a pacifist. Initially, then Minister of Defense Pinhas Lavon refused to release Zichroni, though he was eventually discharged from the army reserves.
yeah, start with the Academic Boycott. its where Jewish Israeli professors, traditionally the backbone of the anti-occupation movement within Israel, are denied invitations to symposiums and conferences abroad and are refused publication of their work in foreign journals. genius move.
Why do you insist on throwing your two cents in when you know that post wasnt directed at you... And if you visit the site there are many ways to boycott, the choice is up to the individual....
Unlike the people of Israel who are forced to join the army for 2 years and kill Palestinians (or they face jail...)
as expected, you can't defend the academic boycott that your little website so prominently promotes.
and I throw in my 2 cents because some readers in here may just happen to be interested in a full picture of this debate, rather than just your side.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
The problem with your posts is that children are dying and you seem more worried about the so-called nuanced arguments you can derive from people merely holding up so-called anti-Semite signs.
while you bravely change your avatar...
Well, the boycotting of Israeli goods by US citizens has become illegal...so all I have left is to hold up signs. Like this one...
The police will come and arrest you if you do not buy Israeli goods.
lol I know huh. that must be an Austin-specific statute....
> North Kansas City company settles > charge related to boycott of Israel > > by Dan Margolies, Kansas City Star > June 25, 2003 > > Cook Composites and Polymers Co. has agreed to pay a $6,000 fine to > settle charges that it violated Commerce Department regulations aimed > at countering the Arab boycott of Israel. > > The department's Bureau of Industry and Security had charged that, in > response to a request from a customer in Bahrain, Cook had furnished > information stating that the goods being shipped were not of Israeli > origin and did not contain Israeli materials. > > The bureau also charged that Cook had failed to report its receipt of > the request. > > Cook, of North Kansas City, neither admitted nor denied the > allegations, but agreed to pay the $6,000 civil penalty. > > The anti-boycott provisions bar U.S. companies from providing > information about their business relationships with Israel. They also > require that receipt of boycott requests be reported to the Bureau of > Industry and Security, formerly known as the Bureau of Export > Administration. > > In a statement released at the time by the department, Commerce > Undersecretary for Industry and Security Kenneth Juster reminded > American companies that the "U.S. government is strongly opposed to > restrictive trade practices or boycotts targeted against Israel." > > Knowing violators of the anti-boycott provisions face fines of up to > $50,000, or five times the value of the exports at issue, and possible > imprisonment. Offenders can also be denied export privileges. > > The Bureau of Industry and Security says it has imposed more than $26 > million in fines for violations of the provisions.
the US has import-export regulations that, interestingly enough, were enacted originally (as the article correctly states) to COUNTER the boycott that the Arabs started. restrictions exist for a host of countries, not only Israel.
you were suggesting individual US citizens are somehow barred from boycotting Israeli goods in their purchases. totally false.
(Again, I don't expect you to understand the difference.)
Whatever makes you feel better about bullet holes through babies.
Unlike the people of Israel who are forced to join the army for 2 years and kill Palestinians (or they face jail...)
WOW
Although Israel has a universal draft, many Israelis do not serve in the military for various reasons. Israeli Arabs are not drafted, though they may enlist, and small numbers serve voluntarily. Haredi Jews are exempt so long as they study in yeshivas, based on an arrangement worked out with David Ben-Gurion in 1948, though small numbers of them do serve. Orthodox women can avoid service on the basis of their religion upon filing certain paperwork. After becoming officially exempt, religious women may choose to do national service work instead, although this is not required. Also, many people who are "unfit" or "unqualified", either mentally or physically, are also exempt. Military service can often be postponed for further education???either college or university, or technical studies. Finally, a number of people refuse to serve because of pacifist views, or refuse certain orders based on their disagreement with government policy.
Some distinguish between refusal to serve in the military because of a pacifist world view that rejects any manifestation of violence and encompasses a refusal to submit to compulsory military service in any form, and partial refusal to serve, such as the Courage to Refuse who "do their reserve duty wherever and whenever they are summoned, but refuse to serve in the occupied territories."[2] The diverse range of opinions regarding the refusal to serve is the reason why there is no single umbrella organization that encompasses all groups of refusers. While most instances of refusal to serve have historically been found among left-leaning Israelis, there is a rapidly expanding awareness among right-wing soldiers to refuse orders to evict Jews from settlements in the West Bank (and formerly in the Gaza Strip). Contemporary instances of refusal to serve occur among individuals and in groups. Some claim that the rise in instances of soldiers refusing to serve, as well as the gradual shift in public opinion regarding the phenomenon, has been influenced by the growing politicization of the IDF.
In February 2004, Israeli Chief of Personnel Major-General Gil Regev told a Knesset committee that the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the territories had dramatically decreased in 2003 despite the increase in the number of high-profile refusals. He said that eighteen reserve soldiers and eight officers had been imprisoned for refusal in 2003 compared to 100 reservists and 29 officers in 2002, a decrease of 80%. Members of the refusers' organization Yesh Gvul claimed in reply that actually 76 people, including eleven officers, had been jailed for refusal in 2003. They also said that 79 soldiers and eighteen officers had added their names to the Courage to Refuse letter in 2003, and that the number of high-school refuseniks had risen to 500.
The first well-known instance of an individual refusing to serve in the IDF occurred in 1954 when Amnon Zichroni, a lawyer, asked to be released from military service as a pacifist. Initially, then Minister of Defense Pinhas Lavon refused to release Zichroni, though he was eventually discharged from the army reserves.
thank you for putting your orignal ignorant poast in context. I'm serious; if you didn't poast something to this effect then I would have.
one thing I would add, which is not mentioned above I don't think, is that there is a variety of ways to serve: you can be found unfit for combat duties ("killing Palestinians" in your parlance) and still enlist and serve in other capacities.
also, many religious citizens, particularly females, do national service in lieu of army, which is usually working with disadvantaged communities.
there have been proposals over the years -- supported by many prominent Israeli Arab intellectuals -- to require this of Muslim Arab Israelis.
also, "Israeli Arabs" are not a monolith. Bedouin and Druze are in fact drafted. Christian Arab Israelis volunteer in fairly high numbers.
yeah, start with the Academic Boycott. its where Jewish Israeli professors, traditionally the backbone of the anti-occupation movement within Israel, are denied invitations to symposiums and conferences abroad and are refused publication of their work in foreign journals. genius move.
You are the Jewish equivalent of a John Birch Society member. You shouldn't take that as an insult --after all, that's what you ARE. Embrace it.
Dude....seriously....you come here stating as fact how other people are racist and of course that you're not.
Argue the issue, but you can shove that other stuff up your pseudo-intellectual pompous ass.
"Pseudo-intellectual" means nothing in your mouth, dude. That's what you would call an intellectual. You can't tell the difference. Please!
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Whatever makes you feel better about bullet holes through babies.
vintage Harvey: say something ignorant, get sonned, then tell us all to just forget it.
Didn't say anything ignorant...there are in fact penalties put up against Americans who boycott Israel. In fact, those restrictions being levied against businesses rather than individuals makes them even more significant.
Didn't get sonned...you are in your own little brainwashed world over there, chief.
Didn't say forget it...just didn't.
But yeah, just keep blindly supporting blatant murderous criminals...it obviously makes you the "nuanced" winner.
yeah, start with the Academic Boycott. its where Jewish Israeli professors, traditionally the backbone of the anti-occupation movement within Israel, are denied invitations to symposiums and conferences abroad and are refused publication of their work in foreign journals. genius move.
You are the Jewish equivalent of a John Birch Society member. You shouldn't take that as an insult --after all, that's what you ARE. Embrace it.
Dude....seriously....you come here stating as fact how other people are racist and of course that you're not.
Argue the issue, but you can shove that other stuff up your pseudo-intellectual pompous ass.
"Pseudo-intellectual" means nothing in your mouth, dude. That's what you would call an intellectual. You can't tell the difference. Please!
Fine....you're an intellectual who reads a lot.....take the insults, name calling and labeling people racist and shove it up your intellectual pompous ass.
Whatever makes you feel better about bullet holes through babies.
vintage Harvey: say something ignorant, get sonned, then tell us all to just forget it.
Didn't say anything ignorant...there are in fact penalties put up against Americans who boycott Israel. In fact, those restrictions being levied against businesses rather than individuals makes them even more significant.
Didn't get sonned...you are in your own little brainwashed world over there, chief.
Didn't say forget it...just didn't.
But yeah, just keep blindly supporting blatant murderous criminals...it obviously makes you the "nuanced" winner.
harvey suggested the evil gov't was preventing him from exercising his divine right to not buy Israeli goods: ignorant and wrong. there's a shelf full of them at my local store. I can choose whether to buy them or not (and the store owner can choose whether to stock them or not actually). ditto for anything available on the internet; you are free to not buy from Israelis. when I pointed this out he changed the subject and reverted to baby killing remarks (as you continue to do when confronted with facts that contradict your poasts).
cute of you to try to help the little guy out though.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Whatever makes you feel better about bullet holes through babies.
vintage Harvey: say something ignorant, get sonned, then tell us all to just forget it.
Didn't say anything ignorant...there are in fact penalties put up against Americans who boycott Israel. In fact, those restrictions being levied against businesses rather than individuals makes them even more significant.
Didn't get sonned...you are in your own little brainwashed world over there, chief.
Didn't say forget it...just didn't.
But yeah, just keep blindly supporting blatant murderous criminals...it obviously makes you the "nuanced" winner.
harvey suggested the evil gov't was preventing him from exercising his divine right to not buy Israeli goods: ignorant and wrong. there's a shelf full of them at my local store. I can choose whether to buy them or not. ditto for the internet. when I pointed this out he changed the subject and reverted to baby killing remarks (as you continue to do when confronted with facts that contradict your poasts).
cute of you to try to help the little guy out though.
Sarcasm...look it up.
Like boycotts and sign holding would ever be my preferred methods of handling genocidal murderers.
You think you have me pinned on some intellectual level...but no, it's a Palestinian 2 year old that someone you blindly supports has physically pinned instead.
Maybe you didn't catch my drift, maybe it was because I spelled 'catalyst' wrong, but what I meant was that I, and the rest of the world, feel that it is more than just strange, but inhuman to willingly see no connection between the treatment of the oppressed by the oppressors and the effect. Why the knee-jerk loyalty to other big-endians against little-endians? What sort of insight does blind faith lend to anyone? Why do you suppose this looks like racism?
Don't take my word for it though Rootless. Please read the post by Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (three or four previous).
Q: what does the second part of this mean?
"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour"
Duderonomy: I'm just getting to this poast after a few days; I'll engage you because you seem smart and haven't insulted me. Here goes:
I resent your use of the term "knee-jerk." It's been used over and over again in here and there's just no basis for it. If you look back at my poasts in this thread you won't find much in the way of knee-jerk support for the current Gaza offensive. In fact, you won't find me discussing the Gaza thing that much at all.
[About the fighting I'll say this: The fighting is awful and I hope it stops soon. Bear in mind that when Israeli military action leads to unnecessary loss of Palestinian life there is often action taken. Courts martial, demotions, etc. All of these were seen in the aftermath of the 2006 Lebanon war and will likely be seen when the current thing winds down. (Contrast that to Palestinians where loss of Jewish life leads to a promotion). The international community has shown ZERO interest in addressing the rocket fire from Gaza. If Israel had not reacted, drawn international scorn, rallied the international community to act, and brought about a cease-fire that addressed the prior-existing conditions, the rockets would have gone on indefinitely (forever), which is clearly untenable from the perspective of any sovereign nation state. I think dead innocents are f*cking tragedy (do I really have to say this?). But I also take a longer view of this conflict than many people in here. I'm not starting new Soulstrut accounts just to poast in these Israel threads; I'm living/debating/studying this thing DAILY. I see the current conflagration as part of a much, much larger struggle: it has a religious dimension, it has a geopolitical dimension, it has a national dimension, it has a social dimension. And all of these go far beyond the 48-hr or even 3-wk new cycle. I think the destruction of Hamas is ultimately a good thing for the Israelis, the Jews, liberals worldwide, the Palestinians and the Americans.]
Instead my poasts here have largely been aimed at correcting some of the GROSS falsehoods and mischaracterizations of Israel's founding, the Zionist movement, and Israel's history.
And it's not like I'm splitting hairs in here either. People talmbout "nuance" like it's a joke but the fact is there's people in here condemning the Gaza offensive TODAY on the basis of the Arab-Israel war of 1948! So hell yeah the facts of this history are still relevant. I'll be damned if I'ma sit back and watch some of these clowns try to educate the board on things they know next to nothing about.
(Sooooo much ignorance has emerged in this thread it's sad: Zionism, Israeli history, the definition of words like "genocide," shit even the intricacies of US export restrictions and the nature of Gazan society vs. W. Bank society -- all of these have been earnestly poasted about as if these folls are giving their opinion of the new Kanye. Seriously it's hilarious to hear some of these morons try to speak from authority on these things.)
Now there's plenty of people in this thread who have managed to register their discontent with Israel's Gaza action without condemning the-very-idea-of-a-Jewish -state-and-everything-ever-associated-with-it (Paychecks and Cosmo come to mind). I am not even saying I necessarily agree with their assessment of things, but they have nonetheless remained within the bounds of sanity and reason in their poasts here. But there is a whole gaggle of toys in here who haven't been able to do that. Either their feeble intellects cannot process the difference between the targeting of civilians and the killing of civilians collaterally, between a national movement and the army that has evolved from it, between a people and its government, etc. Or they just have a hard-on for Israel (pretty obvious in the case of at least a couple of these dudes).
Yours and other's characterization of my remarks as "knee-jerk" is frankly bizarre. It assumes a tribal loyalty to Israel in the face of countervailing facts. Those that know me and my family know I wasn't raised like that. You don't allow for a second the very real possibility that I've come to my views on my own -- through thought, study and experience. Well I assure you I have. I've studied Zionism (a national liberation movement that many of the poasters here have never, ever taken a true and unbiased look at). I've lived and worked among Israelis -- Jewish and non-Jewish alike, and among Palestinians. I assure you that whatever your view of my opinions may be, they are anything but "knee-jerk."
(One last note re your "knee-jerk" characterization of my posts: I think that "knee-jerk" much better describes some of the anti-Israel poasts in here. After all several poasters have openly proclaimed their objection to Israel's existence ("it was a mistake," etc.). Opposed as they are to Israel's very existence in the first place, these people will necessarily object to any action by Israel. This is the definition of knee-jerk; these are the poasters whose "contributions" to this thread should be ignored).
And re: Prof Shlaim: I own his books. I've read his work. He's as far left as they come in Israel, an avowed anti-Zionist. I appreciate that he can write openly and can freely lecture at Israel's universities. But his is only one voice among many, and I don't agree with him on the Arab-Israel issue.
(and of course I see a connection between oppression and effects. but to pretend that violent Arab opposition to Israel started with the Six Day War is ridiculous.)
yeah, start with the Academic Boycott. its where Jewish Israeli professors, traditionally the backbone of the anti-occupation movement within Israel, are denied invitations to symposiums and conferences abroad and are refused publication of their work in foreign journals. genius move.
You are the Jewish equivalent of a John Birch Society member. You shouldn't take that as an insult --after all, that's what you ARE. Embrace it.
Dude....seriously....you come here stating as fact how other people are racist and of course that you're not.
Argue the issue, but you can shove that other stuff up your pseudo-intellectual pompous ass.
"Pseudo-intellectual" means nothing in your mouth, dude. That's what you would call an intellectual. You can't tell the difference. Please!
Fine....you're an intellectual who reads a lot.....take the insults, name calling and labeling people racist and shove it up your intellectual pompous ass.
Got it?
Okay. What should I do with all the facts and references that you've never bothered to address? I could probably fit those up my ass tomorrow and the next day. What is today? Tuesday? I think I'd need Friday, too, because I'm a tight-ass.
Or --and this is just a thought- you could decide that reading is fundamental. Maybe staring out your f*cking car window soulfully on long trips isn't enough to figure out the world.
Maybe you didn't catch my drift, maybe it was because I spelled 'catalyst' wrong, but what I meant was that I, and the rest of the world, feel that it is more than just strange, but inhuman to willingly see no connection between the treatment of the oppressed by the oppressors and the effect. Why the knee-jerk loyalty to other big-endians against little-endians? What sort of insight does blind faith lend to anyone? Why do you suppose this looks like racism?
Don't take my word for it though Rootless. Please read the post by Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (three or four previous).
Q: what does the second part of this mean?
"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour"
Duderonomy: I'm just getting to this poast after a few days; I'll engage you because you seem smart and haven't insulted me. Here goes:
I resent your use of the term "knee-jerk." It's been used over and over again in here and there's just no basis for it. If you look back at my poasts in this thread you won't find much in the way of knee-jerk support for the current Gaza offensive. In fact, you won't find me discussing the Gaza thing that much at all.
[About the fighting I'll say this: The fighting is awful and I hope it stops soon. Bear in mind that when Israeli military action leads to unnecessary loss of Palestinian life there is often action taken. Courts martial, demotions, etc. All of these were seen in the aftermath of the 2006 Lebanon war and will likely be seen when the current thing winds down. (Contrast that to Palestinians where loss of Jewish life leads to a promotion). The international community has shown ZERO interest in addressing the rocket fire from Gaza. If Israel had not reacted, drawn international scorn, rallied the international community to act, and brought about a cease-fire that addressed the prior-existing conditions, the rockets would have gone on indefinitely (forever), which is clearly untenable from the perspective of any sovereign nation state. I think dead innocents are f*cking tragedy (do I really have to say this?). But I also take a longer view of this conflict than many people in here. I'm not starting new Soulstrut accounts just to poast in these Israel threads; I'm living/debating/studying this thing DAILY. I see the current conflagration as part of a much, much larger struggle: it has a religious dimension, it has a geopolitical dimension, it has a national dimension, it has a social dimension. And all of these go far beyond the 48-hr or even 3-wk new cycle. I think the destruction of Hamas is ultimately a good thing for the Israelis, the Jews, liberals worldwide, the Palestinians and the Americans.]
Instead my poasts here have largely been aimed at correcting some of the GROSS falsehoods and mischaracterizations of Israel's founding, the Zionist movement, and Israel's history.
And it's not like I'm splitting hairs in here either. People talmbout "nuance" like it's a joke but the fact is there's people in here condemning the Gaza offensive TODAY on the basis of the Arab-Israel war of 1948! So hell yeah the facts of this history are still relevant. I'll be damned if I'ma sit back and watch some of these clowns try to educate the board on things they know next to nothing about.
(Sooooo much ignorance has emerged in this thread it's sad: Zionism, Israeli history, the definition of words like "genocide," shit even the intricacies of US export restrictions and the nature of Gazan society vs. W. Bank society -- all of these have been earnestly poasted about as if these folls are giving their opinion of the new Kanye. Seriously it's hilarious to hear some of these morons try to speak from authority on these things.)
Now there's plenty of people in this thread who have managed to register their discontent with Israel's Gaza action without condemning the-very-idea-of-a-Jewish -state-and-everything-ever-associated-with-it (Paychecks and Cosmo come to mind). I am not even saying I necessarily agree with their assessment of things, but they have nonetheless remained within the bounds of sanity and reason in their poasts here. But there is a whole gaggle of toys in here who haven't been able to do that. Either their feeble intellects cannot process the difference between the targeting of civilians and the killing of civilians collaterally, between a national movement and the army that has evolved from it, between a people and its government, etc. Or they just have a hard-on for Israel (pretty obvious in the case of at least a couple of these dudes).
Yours and other's characterization of my remarks as "knee-jerk" is frankly bizarre. It assumes a tribal loyalty to Israel in the face of countervailing facts. Those that know me and my family know I wasn't raised like that. You don't allow for a second the very real possibility that I've come to my views on my own -- through thought, study and experience. Well I assure you I have. I've studied Zionism (a national liberation movement that many of the poasters here have never, ever taken a true and unbiased look at). I've lived and worked among Israelis -- Jewish and non-Jewish alike, and among Palestinians. I assure you that whatever your view of my opinions may be, they are anything but "knee-jerk."
(One last note re your "knee-jerk" characterization of my posts: I think that "knee-jerk" much better describes some of the anti-Israel poasts in here. After all several poasters have openly proclaimed their objection to Israel's existence ("it was a mistake," etc.). Opposed as they are to Israel's very existence in the first place, these people will necessarily object to any action by Israel. This is the definition of knee-jerk; these are the poasters whose "contributions" to this thread should be ignored).
And re: Prof Shlaim: I own his books. I've read his work. He's as far left as they come in Israel, an avowed anti-Zionist. I appreciate that he can write openly and can freely lecture at Israel's universities. But his is only one voice among many, and I don't agree with him on the Arab-Israel issue.
(and of course I see a connection between oppression and effects. but to pretend that violent Arab opposition to Israel started with the Six Day War is ridiculous.)
I like that in this dead serious post you still managed to use the soulstrut spelling "poaster".
Maybe you didn't catch my drift, maybe it was because I spelled 'catalyst' wrong, but what I meant was that I, and the rest of the world, feel that it is more than just strange, but inhuman to willingly see no connection between the treatment of the oppressed by the oppressors and the effect. Why the knee-jerk loyalty to other big-endians against little-endians? What sort of insight does blind faith lend to anyone? Why do you suppose this looks like racism?
Don't take my word for it though Rootless. Please read the post by Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim (three or four previous).
Q: what does the second part of this mean?
"Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people; neither shalt thou stand idly by the blood of thy neighbour"
Duderonomy: I'm just getting to this poast after a few days; I'll engage you because you seem smart and haven't insulted me. Here goes:
I resent your use of the term "knee-jerk." It's been used over and over again in here and there's just no basis for it. If you look back at my poasts in this thread you won't find much in the way of knee-jerk support for the current Gaza offensive. In fact, you won't find me discussing the Gaza thing that much at all.
[About the fighting I'll say this: The fighting is awful and I hope it stops soon. Bear in mind that when Israeli military action leads to unnecessary loss of Palestinian life there is often action taken. Courts martial, demotions, etc. All of these were seen in the aftermath of the 2006 Lebanon war and will likely be seen when the current thing winds down. (Contrast that to Palestinians where loss of Jewish life leads to a promotion). The international community has shown ZERO interest in addressing the rocket fire from Gaza. If Israel had not reacted, drawn international scorn, rallied the international community to act, and brought about a cease-fire that addressed the prior-existing conditions, the rockets would have gone on indefinitely (forever), which is clearly untenable from the perspective of any sovereign nation state. I think dead innocents are f*cking tragedy (do I really have to say this?). But I also take a longer view of this conflict than many people in here. I'm not starting new Soulstrut accounts just to poast in these Israel threads; I'm living/debating/studying this thing DAILY. I see the current conflagration as part of a much, much larger struggle: it has a religious dimension, it has a geopolitical dimension, it has a national dimension, it has a social dimension. And all of these go far beyond the 48-hr or even 3-wk new cycle. I think the destruction of Hamas is ultimately a good thing for the Israelis, the Jews, liberals worldwide, the Palestinians and the Americans.]
Instead my poasts here have largely been aimed at correcting some of the GROSS falsehoods and mischaracterizations of Israel's founding, the Zionist movement, and Israel's history.
And it's not like I'm splitting hairs in here either. People talmbout "nuance" like it's a joke but the fact is there's people in here condemning the Gaza offensive TODAY on the basis of the Arab-Israel war of 1948! So hell yeah the facts of this history are still relevant. I'll be damned if I'ma sit back and watch some of these clowns try to educate the board on things they know next to nothing about.
(Sooooo much ignorance has emerged in this thread it's sad: Zionism, Israeli history, the definition of words like "genocide," shit even the intricacies of US export restrictions and the nature of Gazan society vs. W. Bank society -- all of these have been earnestly poasted about as if these folls are giving their opinion of the new Kanye. Seriously it's hilarious to hear some of these morons try to speak from authority on these things.)
Now there's plenty of people in this thread who have managed to register their discontent with Israel's Gaza action without condemning the-very-idea-of-a-Jewish -state-and-everything-ever-associated-with-it (Paychecks and Cosmo come to mind). I am not even saying I necessarily agree with their assessment of things, but they have nonetheless remained within the bounds of sanity and reason in their poasts here. But there is a whole gaggle of toys in here who haven't been able to do that. Either their feeble intellects cannot process the difference between the targeting of civilians and the killing of civilians collaterally, between a national movement and the army that has evolved from it, between a people and its government, etc. Or they just have a hard-on for Israel (pretty obvious in the case of at least a couple of these dudes).
Yours and other's characterization of my remarks as "knee-jerk" is frankly bizarre. It assumes a tribal loyalty to Israel in the face of countervailing facts. Those that know me and my family know I wasn't raised like that. You don't allow for a second the very real possibility that I've come to my views on my own -- through thought, study and experience. Well I assure you I have. I've studied Zionism (a national liberation movement that many of the poasters here have never, ever taken a true and unbiased look at). I've lived and worked among Israelis -- Jewish and non-Jewish alike, and among Palestinians. I assure you that whatever your view of my opinions may be, they are anything but "knee-jerk."
(One last note re your "knee-jerk" characterization of my posts: I think that "knee-jerk" much better describes some of the anti-Israel poasts in here. After all several poasters have openly proclaimed their objection to Israel's existence ("it was a mistake," etc.). Opposed as they are to Israel's very existence in the first place, these people will necessarily object to any action by Israel. This is the definition of knee-jerk; these are the poasters whose "contributions" to this thread should be ignored).
And re: Prof Shlaim: I own his books. I've read his work. He's as far left as they come in Israel, an avowed anti-Zionist. I appreciate that he can write openly and can freely lecture at Israel's universities. But his is only one voice among many, and I don't agree with him on the Arab-Israel issue.
(and of course I see a connection between oppression and effects. but to pretend that violent Arab opposition to Israel started with the Six Day War is ridiculous.)
So, in other words, Alan Dershowitz is your Facebook friend. Do you send him hatching eggs?
Or --and this is just a thought- you could decide that reading is fundamental. Maybe staring out your f*cking car window soulfully on long trips isn't enough to figure out the world.
I've never been able to read and drive at the same time....so much wasted time.
All the reading in the world is useless if you don't have the common sense you accuse me of having as if it's a detriment.
You can think as lowly about me as you want but the lowest point of this thread is your constant use of personal attacks...you apologized for it once but apparently can't control your own behavior.
The little bit of intelligence I have has gotten me a long way in life and I have enough common sense to buy Health Insurance before I buy records, unlike you.
As my grandfather liked to say "Some people are educated way beyond their level of intelligence".
The really amazing thing is that you and I have met, had dinner together and appeared to have some level of mutual respect. The guy I met in Austin would not have been as disrespectful in person as you've been in this thread.
And the real comedy is that I didn't know you were Mr. Butter until about halfway through this thread.
Next time we meet make sure to remind me that even though I'm not smart enough to realize it that you have determined I'm a racist....I'll buy the second beer.
if people get sick of arguing with hypocrites and apologists and general internet intellectually stunted idiots.... and actually want to do something to help...heres a good site
www.mecaforpeace.org (maybe the $$$ you spend on the next raer could go to something slightly better and more rewarding)
Duderonomy: I'm just getting to this poast after a few days; I'll engage you because you seem smart and haven't insulted me. Here goes:
I resent your use of the term "knee-jerk." It's been used over and over again in here and there's just no basis for it. If you look back at my poasts in this thread you won't find much in the way of knee-jerk support for the current Gaza offensive. In fact, you won't find me discussing the Gaza thing that much at all.
Knee-jerk is[/b] in-accurate, it's quite the opposite. That's the problem.
I read through all of your poasts on this thread (yes, all of them) and up to this point the nearest you'd got to expressing regret for the awful civilian cost of this has been
so yeah, I agree with you that we should start upholding international laws in a more evenhanded manner up in here. and that was within the context of lines on a map[/b] (page 9), nothing about the IDF's intentional killing of civilians (eg please to watch the video w/ a woman standing between an IDF soldier and a crowd of kids throwing stones - the IDF seems to have a 'hard-on' for killing civilians). You're right, you haven't discussed the Gaza 'thing' that much at all. It's just that it's this little Gaza 'thing' that the rest of the world is watching in slack-jawed horror. It's this little 'thing' that the war crimes[/b] investigation is about. So yes, it is re-assuring to read the rest of your poast - I don't know why I had to push you for it, but you have my thanks if it's any consolation.
The international community has shown ZERO interest in addressing the rocket fire from Gaza. If Israel had not reacted, drawn international scorn, rallied the international community to act, and brought about a cease-fire that addressed the prior-existing conditions, the rockets would have gone on indefinitely (forever) RE: so ceasefire achieved, then thrown away by Israel - how did Israel expect Hamas to react to assassinations? To the continuing blockade? If you have pinned a man to the floor by standing on his throat, don't be surprised/indignant if he doesn't fight fair and aims a kick for your crown jewels...
But I also take a longer view of this conflict than many people in here (...) I see the current conflagration as part of a much, much larger struggle: Well in that case don't wonder what the rockets are about. It's all part of a much longer fight, as you say. I understand that you're trying to evenly weigh up the ebbs and flows of a very long, entangled conflict, but you also need to occasionally lift your head from the books and just say "WTF?" out loud to the actions of a country that touts itself as a Democracy.
Why should I have an opinion? Because, bizarrely, Israel is a member of the EU. EU members are supposed to behave in certain ways, share common wealth among themselves, watch each other's backs etc. Please contrast and compare the standards the EU is demanding Turkey abide by to become a member and the situation in Israel. If Israel had to jump through the same hoops without backing and pressure from Uncle Sam, I really don't think they'd be a member. Not even close. And currently, they sure as hell wouldn't get my vote.
But that's just my opinion.
I'll be damned if I'ma sit back and watch some of these clowns try to educate the board on things they know next to nothing about. Yes, there has been some shit talking, and you're more than welcome to silence that.
Yours and other's characterization of my remarks as "knee-jerk" is frankly bizarre (...) I assure you that whatever your view of my opinions may be, they are anything but "knee-jerk." (...) (One last note re your "knee-jerk" characterization of my posts: I think that "knee-jerk" much better describes some of the anti-Israel poasts in here. This is the definition of knee-jerk; these are the poasters whose "contributions" to this thread should be ignored).
Alright, alright, no more jerking the knee. You've been very even tempered and patient in the face of provocation. Thanks for answering my questions.
(and of course I see a connection between oppression and effects. but to pretend that violent Arab opposition to Israel started with the Six Day War is ridiculous.) I'm not pretending this. I'm sure the violent oppostion started the moment people were forcibly evicted from their homes. One party in this has all the power though, and for that, fairly or unfairly, they are judged more harshly. Unfair that Israel could be accused of war crimes when Hamas are firing rockets indescriminately? Recognise Palestine as a nation, Hamas as a real political party, and you can try them for theirs. Forced outside of the law, and it's more difficult to hold them accountable.
D'oh, I thought they were trying to join/had done so.
Regardless, there's a certain code of conduct expected from civilised countries, international laws etc that Israel aren't following, and if Hamas are to be held up to those standards, make it a level playing field.
EDIT: Israel is an observer, but not full-member, of the Council of Europe (Law related).
interesting article weighing up the pros & cons of Israeli involvement/membership here
Comments
Dude....seriously....you come here stating as fact how other people are racist and of course that you're not.
Argue the issue, but you can shove that other stuff up your pseudo-intellectual pompous ass.
the US has import-export regulations that, interestingly enough, were enacted originally (as the article correctly states) to COUNTER the boycott that the Arabs started. restrictions exist for a host of countries, not only Israel.
you were suggesting individual US citizens are somehow barred from boycotting Israeli goods in their purchases. totally false.
(Again, I don't expect you to understand the difference.)
other than that, I can't think of any jewish goods that I buy anyways....
but either way, if I were to do it, you can bet I will be calling it "Mancotting".
Although Israel has a universal draft, many Israelis do not serve in the military for various reasons. Israeli Arabs are not drafted, though they may enlist, and small numbers serve voluntarily. Haredi Jews are exempt so long as they study in yeshivas, based on an arrangement worked out with David Ben-Gurion in 1948, though small numbers of them do serve. Orthodox women can avoid service on the basis of their religion upon filing certain paperwork. After becoming officially exempt, religious women may choose to do national service work instead, although this is not required. Also, many people who are "unfit" or "unqualified", either mentally or physically, are also exempt. Military service can often be postponed for further education???either college or university, or technical studies. Finally, a number of people refuse to serve because of pacifist views, or refuse certain orders based on their disagreement with government policy.
Some distinguish between refusal to serve in the military because of a pacifist world view that rejects any manifestation of violence and encompasses a refusal to submit to compulsory military service in any form, and partial refusal to serve, such as the Courage to Refuse who "do their reserve duty wherever and whenever they are summoned, but refuse to serve in the occupied territories."[2] The diverse range of opinions regarding the refusal to serve is the reason why there is no single umbrella organization that encompasses all groups of refusers. While most instances of refusal to serve have historically been found among left-leaning Israelis, there is a rapidly expanding awareness among right-wing soldiers to refuse orders to evict Jews from settlements in the West Bank (and formerly in the Gaza Strip).
Contemporary instances of refusal to serve occur among individuals and in groups. Some claim that the rise in instances of soldiers refusing to serve, as well as the gradual shift in public opinion regarding the phenomenon, has been influenced by the growing politicization of the IDF.
In February 2004, Israeli Chief of Personnel Major-General Gil Regev told a Knesset committee that the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the territories had dramatically decreased in 2003 despite the increase in the number of high-profile refusals. He said that eighteen reserve soldiers and eight officers had been imprisoned for refusal in 2003 compared to 100 reservists and 29 officers in 2002, a decrease of 80%. Members of the refusers' organization Yesh Gvul claimed in reply that actually 76 people, including eleven officers, had been jailed for refusal in 2003. They also said that 79 soldiers and eighteen officers had added their names to the Courage to Refuse letter in 2003, and that the number of high-school refuseniks had risen to 500.
The first well-known instance of an individual refusing to serve in the IDF occurred in 1954 when Amnon Zichroni, a lawyer, asked to be released from military service as a pacifist. Initially, then Minister of Defense Pinhas Lavon refused to release Zichroni, though he was eventually discharged from the army reserves.
as expected, you can't defend the academic boycott that your little website so prominently promotes.
and I throw in my 2 cents because some readers in here may just happen to be interested in a full picture of this debate, rather than just your side.
Whatever makes you feel better about bullet holes through babies.
thank you for putting your orignal ignorant poast in context. I'm serious; if you didn't poast something to this effect then I would have.
one thing I would add, which is not mentioned above I don't think, is that there is a variety of ways to serve: you can be found unfit for combat duties ("killing Palestinians" in your parlance) and still enlist and serve in other capacities.
also, many religious citizens, particularly females, do national service in lieu of army, which is usually working with disadvantaged communities.
there have been proposals over the years -- supported by many prominent Israeli Arab intellectuals -- to require this of Muslim Arab Israelis.
also, "Israeli Arabs" are not a monolith. Bedouin and Druze are in fact drafted. Christian Arab Israelis volunteer in fairly high numbers.
vintage Harvey: say something ignorant, get sonned, then tell us all to just forget it.
"Pseudo-intellectual" means nothing in your mouth, dude. That's what you would call an intellectual. You can't tell the difference. Please!
Didn't say anything ignorant...there are in fact penalties put up against Americans who boycott Israel. In fact, those restrictions being levied against businesses rather than individuals makes them even more significant.
Didn't get sonned...you are in your own little brainwashed world over there, chief.
Didn't say forget it...just didn't.
But yeah, just keep blindly supporting blatant murderous criminals...it obviously makes you the "nuanced" winner.
Fine....you're an intellectual who reads a lot.....take the insults, name calling and labeling people racist and shove it up your intellectual pompous ass.
Got it?
harvey suggested the evil gov't was preventing him from exercising his divine right to not buy Israeli goods: ignorant and wrong. there's a shelf full of them at my local store. I can choose whether to buy them or not (and the store owner can choose whether to stock them or not actually). ditto for anything available on the internet; you are free to not buy from Israelis. when I pointed this out he changed the subject and reverted to baby killing remarks (as you continue to do when confronted with facts that contradict your poasts).
cute of you to try to help the little guy out though.
Sarcasm...look it up.
Like boycotts and sign holding would ever be my preferred methods of handling genocidal murderers.
You think you have me pinned on some intellectual level...but no, it's a Palestinian 2 year old that someone you blindly supports has physically pinned instead.
Duderonomy: I'm just getting to this poast after a few days; I'll engage you because you seem smart and haven't insulted me. Here goes:
I resent your use of the term "knee-jerk." It's been used over and over again in here and there's just no basis for it. If you look back at my poasts in this thread you won't find much in the way of knee-jerk support for the current Gaza offensive. In fact, you won't find me discussing the Gaza thing that much at all.
[About the fighting I'll say this: The fighting is awful and I hope it stops soon. Bear in mind that when Israeli military action leads to unnecessary loss of Palestinian life there is often action taken. Courts martial, demotions, etc. All of these were seen in the aftermath of the 2006 Lebanon war and will likely be seen when the current thing winds down. (Contrast that to Palestinians where loss of Jewish life leads to a promotion). The international community has shown ZERO interest in addressing the rocket fire from Gaza. If Israel had not reacted, drawn international scorn, rallied the international community to act, and brought about a cease-fire that addressed the prior-existing conditions, the rockets would have gone on indefinitely (forever), which is clearly untenable from the perspective of any sovereign nation state. I think dead innocents are f*cking tragedy (do I really have to say this?). But I also take a longer view of this conflict than many people in here. I'm not starting new Soulstrut accounts just to poast in these Israel threads; I'm living/debating/studying this thing DAILY. I see the current conflagration as part of a much, much larger struggle: it has a religious dimension, it has a geopolitical dimension, it has a national dimension, it has a social dimension. And all of these go far beyond the 48-hr or even 3-wk new cycle. I think the destruction of Hamas is ultimately a good thing for the Israelis, the Jews, liberals worldwide, the Palestinians and the Americans.]
Instead my poasts here have largely been aimed at correcting some of the GROSS falsehoods and mischaracterizations of Israel's founding, the Zionist movement, and Israel's history.
And it's not like I'm splitting hairs in here either. People talmbout "nuance" like it's a joke but the fact is there's people in here condemning the Gaza offensive TODAY on the basis of the Arab-Israel war of 1948! So hell yeah the facts of this history are still relevant. I'll be damned if I'ma sit back and watch some of these clowns try to educate the board on things they know next to nothing about.
(Sooooo much ignorance has emerged in this thread it's sad: Zionism, Israeli history, the definition of words like "genocide," shit even the intricacies of US export restrictions and the nature of Gazan society vs. W. Bank society -- all of these have been earnestly poasted about as if these folls are giving their opinion of the new Kanye. Seriously it's hilarious to hear some of these morons try to speak from authority on these things.)
Now there's plenty of people in this thread who have managed to register their discontent with Israel's Gaza action without condemning the-very-idea-of-a-Jewish -state-and-everything-ever-associated-with-it (Paychecks and Cosmo come to mind). I am not even saying I necessarily agree with their assessment of things, but they have nonetheless remained within the bounds of sanity and reason in their poasts here. But there is a whole gaggle of toys in here who haven't been able to do that. Either their feeble intellects cannot process the difference between the targeting of civilians and the killing of civilians collaterally, between a national movement and the army that has evolved from it, between a people and its government, etc. Or they just have a hard-on for Israel (pretty obvious in the case of at least a couple of these dudes).
Yours and other's characterization of my remarks as "knee-jerk" is frankly bizarre. It assumes a tribal loyalty to Israel in the face of countervailing facts. Those that know me and my family know I wasn't raised like that. You don't allow for a second the very real possibility that I've come to my views on my own -- through thought, study and experience. Well I assure you I have. I've studied Zionism (a national liberation movement that many of the poasters here have never, ever taken a true and unbiased look at). I've lived and worked among Israelis -- Jewish and non-Jewish alike, and among Palestinians. I assure you that whatever your view of my opinions may be, they are anything but "knee-jerk."
(One last note re your "knee-jerk" characterization of my posts: I think that "knee-jerk" much better describes some of the anti-Israel poasts in here. After all several poasters have openly proclaimed their objection to Israel's existence ("it was a mistake," etc.). Opposed as they are to Israel's very existence in the first place, these people will necessarily object to any action by Israel. This is the definition of knee-jerk; these are the poasters whose "contributions" to this thread should be ignored).
And re: Prof Shlaim: I own his books. I've read his work. He's as far left as they come in Israel, an avowed anti-Zionist. I appreciate that he can write openly and can freely lecture at Israel's universities. But his is only one voice among many, and I don't agree with him on the Arab-Israel issue.
(and of course I see a connection between oppression and effects. but to pretend that violent Arab opposition to Israel started with the Six Day War is ridiculous.)
Okay. What should I do with all the facts and references that you've never bothered to address? I could probably fit those up my ass tomorrow and the next day. What is today? Tuesday? I think I'd need Friday, too, because I'm a tight-ass.
Or --and this is just a thought- you could decide that reading is fundamental. Maybe staring out your f*cking car window soulfully on long trips isn't enough to figure out the world.
I like that in this dead serious post you still managed to use the soulstrut spelling "poaster".
So, in other words, Alan Dershowitz is your Facebook friend. Do you send him hatching eggs?
I've never been able to read and drive at the same time....so much wasted time.
All the reading in the world is useless if you don't have the common sense you accuse me of having as if it's a detriment.
You can think as lowly about me as you want but the lowest point of this thread is your constant use of personal attacks...you apologized for it once but apparently can't control your own behavior.
The little bit of intelligence I have has gotten me a long way in life and I have enough common sense to buy Health Insurance before I buy records, unlike you.
As my grandfather liked to say "Some people are educated way beyond their level of intelligence".
The really amazing thing is that you and I have met, had dinner together and appeared to have some level of mutual respect. The guy I met in Austin would not have been as disrespectful in person as you've been in this thread.
And the real comedy is that I didn't know you were Mr. Butter until about halfway through this thread.
Next time we meet make sure to remind me that even though I'm not smart enough to realize it that you have determined I'm a racist....I'll buy the second beer.
Mobius Priest??
Saying this whole thread reminds me of a mobius strip.
www.mecaforpeace.org (maybe the $$$ you spend on the next raer could go to something slightly better and more rewarding)
Knee-jerk is[/b] in-accurate, it's quite the opposite. That's the problem.
I read through all of your poasts on this thread (yes, all of them) and up to this point the nearest you'd got to expressing regret for the awful civilian cost of this has been
so yeah, I agree with you that we should start upholding international laws in a more evenhanded manner up in here.
and that was within the context of lines on a map[/b] (page 9), nothing about the IDF's intentional killing of civilians (eg please to watch the video w/ a woman standing between an IDF soldier and a crowd of kids throwing stones - the IDF seems to have a 'hard-on' for killing civilians). You're right, you haven't discussed the Gaza 'thing' that much at all. It's just that it's this little Gaza 'thing' that the rest of the world is watching in slack-jawed horror. It's this little 'thing' that the war crimes[/b] investigation is about. So yes, it is re-assuring to read the rest of your poast - I don't know why I had to push you for it, but you have my thanks if it's any consolation.
The international community has shown ZERO interest in addressing the rocket fire from Gaza. If Israel had not reacted, drawn international scorn, rallied the international community to act, and brought about a cease-fire that addressed the prior-existing conditions, the rockets would have gone on indefinitely (forever)
RE: so ceasefire achieved, then thrown away by Israel - how did Israel expect Hamas to react to assassinations? To the continuing blockade? If you have pinned a man to the floor by standing on his throat, don't be surprised/indignant if he doesn't fight fair and aims a kick for your crown jewels...
But I also take a longer view of this conflict than many people in here (...) I see the current conflagration as part of a much, much larger struggle:
Well in that case don't wonder what the rockets are about. It's all part of a much longer fight, as you say.
I understand that you're trying to evenly weigh up the ebbs and flows of a very long, entangled conflict, but you also need to occasionally lift your head from the books and just say "WTF?" out loud to the actions of a country that touts itself as a Democracy.
Why should I have an opinion? Because, bizarrely, Israel is a member of the EU. EU members are supposed to behave in certain ways, share common wealth among themselves, watch each other's backs etc.
Please contrast and compare the standards the EU is demanding Turkey abide by to become a member and the situation in Israel. If Israel had to jump through the same hoops without backing and pressure from Uncle Sam, I really don't think they'd be a member. Not even close. And currently, they sure as hell wouldn't get my vote.
But that's just my opinion.
I'll be damned if I'ma sit back and watch some of these clowns try to educate the board on things they know next to nothing about.
Yes, there has been some shit talking, and you're more than welcome to silence that.
Yours and other's characterization of my remarks as "knee-jerk" is frankly bizarre (...) I assure you that whatever your view of my opinions may be, they are anything but "knee-jerk." (...) (One last note re your "knee-jerk" characterization of my posts: I think that "knee-jerk" much better describes some of the anti-Israel poasts in here. This is the definition of knee-jerk; these are the poasters whose "contributions" to this thread should be ignored).
Alright, alright, no more jerking the knee. You've been very even tempered and patient in the face of provocation. Thanks for answering my questions.
(and of course I see a connection between oppression and effects. but to pretend that violent Arab opposition to Israel started with the Six Day War is ridiculous.)
I'm not pretending this. I'm sure the violent oppostion started the moment people were forcibly evicted from their homes. One party in this has all the power though, and for that, fairly or unfairly, they are judged more harshly. Unfair that Israel could be accused of war crimes when Hamas are firing rockets indescriminately? Recognise Palestine as a nation, Hamas as a real political party, and you can try them for theirs. Forced outside of the law, and it's more difficult to hold them accountable.
Regardless, there's a certain code of conduct expected from civilised countries, international laws etc that Israel aren't following, and if Hamas are to be held up to those standards, make it a level playing field.
EDIT: Israel is an observer, but not full-member, of the Council of Europe (Law related).
interesting article weighing up the pros & cons of Israeli involvement/membership here
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowP...uncil_of_Europe
Out.