Also, I'd say that Gentiles who are troubled by Israel's actions in Gaza aren't so much upset by the violence, but feel threatened by the existence of a Jewish state.
Also, I'd say that Gentiles who are troubled by Israel's actions in Gaza aren't so much upset by the violence, but feel threatened by the existence of a Jewish state.
Also, I'd say that Gentiles who are troubled by Israel's actions in Gaza aren't so much upset by the violence, but feel threatened by the existence of a Jewish state.
I feel like you should analyze more, troll less
It just boils down to self interest. A strong & secure Jewish state might make Gentiles feel ill at ease, whereas for a Jew its a desirable thing. The thing that I find funny is, rather than come out & say that they don't want to see the existence of a Jewish state in any way, shape or form, non-Jews hide behind phony sympathy for the Palestinian people. I don't think it's sincere at all. The issue of Palestine allows gentiles to veil their anti-semetic leanings behind a veneer of compassion & justice, and affords them a way to hate us with less guilt and more conviction.
Also, I'd say that Gentiles who are troubled by Israel's actions in Gaza aren't so much upset by the violence, but feel threatened by the existence of a Jewish state.
I feel like you should analyze more, troll less
It just boils down to self interest. A strong & secure Jewish state might make Gentiles feel ill at ease, whereas for a Jew its a desirable thing. The thing that I find funny is, rather than come out & say that they don't want to see the existence of a Jewish state in any way, shape or form, non-Jews hide behind phony sympathy for the Palestinian people. I don't think it's sincere at all. The issue of Palestine allows gentiles to veil their anti-semetic leanings behind a veneer of compassion & justice, and affords them a way to hate us with less guilt and more conviction.
What a crock of shit. Sure, for those who are actual anti-semites, the actions of Israel can be an excuse for preaching their hate - but there are millions of people in the world who are just looking at Israel as a state that is acting with undue aggression and little regard for innocents as they flex their considerable military power, no anti-semitism involved.
Also, I'd say that Gentiles who are troubled by Israel's actions in Gaza aren't so much upset by the violence, but feel threatened by the existence of a Jewish state.
I feel like you should analyze more, troll less
It just boils down to self interest. A strong & secure Jewish state might make Gentiles feel ill at ease, whereas for a Jew its a desirable thing. The thing that I find funny is, rather than come out & say that they don't want to see the existence of a Jewish state in any way, shape or form, non-Jews hide behind phony sympathy for the Palestinian people. I don't think it's sincere at all. The issue of Palestine allows gentiles to veil their anti-semetic leanings behind a veneer of compassion & justice, and affords them a way to hate us with less guilt and more conviction.
What a crock of shit. Sure, for those who are actual anti-semites, the actions of Israel can be an excuse for preaching their hate - but there are millions of people in the world who are just looking at Israel as a state that is acting with undue agression and little regard for innocents as they flex their considerable military power, no anti-semitism involved.
When the time come for your kind to kill my kind again, I'm sure you'll feel better about it. You'll cry for the Palestinian "innocents" as they march us through the streets to the camps. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Dude, fuck off. You can take that "your kind" shit and shove it up your ass. You want to talk about anybody who takes issue with Israel must hate Jews, expect to be called full of shit.
Dude, fuck off. You can take that "your kind" shit and shove it up your ass. You want to talk about anybody who takes issue with Israel must hate Jews, expect to be called full of shit.
You asshole.
Don't hate the player, especially when you made the game.
Haz, it's sad to see that you're still on your personal mission to vindicate the Nazis. Please stop and take your head out of your ass.
All of my questions aimed at people I was expecting an intelligent response from have either been deemed unanswerable, and on a thread with this many 'bad looks' it's not surprising, or ignorable.
I'd take PMs, but I guess if it really doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.
I'm not saying I didn't wish it was different, but that's just how it is & I can't imagine a world that's any different. You have a really fucked up view of the world HAZ. I truly feel sorry for you.
So basically you've run out of coherent arguments to justify the murder of nearly 300 children and resorted to 'the human race is essentially flawed', as a blanket justification for everything and anything. well done.
So basically you've run out of coherent arguments to justify the murder of nearly 300 children and resorted to 'the human race is essentially flawed', as a blanket justification for everything and anything. well done.
Not only that, I don't have any justification for the millions of children killed throughout the history of man.
And I was simply agreeing with a post Haz made, it was not my "argument".
I'm about three pages behind in this thread so this is not really related to the last couple exchanges, but I thought this article in today's times is interesting and informative:
January 11, 2009 A Gaza War Full of Traps and Trickery By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM ??? The grinding urban battle unfolding in the densely populated Gaza Strip is a war of new tactics, quick adaptation and lethal tricks.
Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership???s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza???s largest hospital, Israeli intelligence officials say.
Unwilling to take Israel???s bait and come into the open, Hamas militants are fighting in civilian clothes; even the police have been ordered to take off their uniforms. The militants emerge from tunnels to shoot automatic weapons or antitank missiles, then disappear back inside, hoping to lure the Israeli soldiers with their fire.
In one apartment building in Zeitoun, in northern Gaza, Hamas set an inventive, deadly trap. According to an Israeli journalist embedded with Israeli troops, the militants placed a mannequin in a hallway off the building???s main entrance. They hoped to draw fire from Israeli soldiers who might, through the blur of night vision goggles and split-second decisions, mistake the figure for a fighter. The mannequin was rigged to explode and bring down the building.
In an interview, the reporter, Ron Ben-Yishai, a senior military correspondent for the newspaper Yediot Aharonot, said soldiers also found a pile of weapons with a grenade launcher on top. When they moved the launcher, ???they saw a detonator light up, but somehow it didn???t go off.???
The Israeli Army has also come prepared for a battle both sides knew was inevitable. Every soldier, Israeli officials say, is outfitted with a ceramic vest and a helmet. Every unit has dogs trained to sniff out explosives and people hidden in tunnels, as well as combat engineers trained to defuse hidden bombs.
To avoid booby traps, the Israelis say, they enter buildings by breaking through side walls, rather than going in the front. Once inside, they move from room to room, battering holes in interior walls to avoid exposure to snipers and suicide bombers dressed as civilians, with explosive belts hidden beneath winter coats.
The Israelis say they are also using new weapons, like a small-diameter smart bomb, the GBU-39, which Israel bought last fall from Washington. The bomb, which is very accurate, has a small explosive, as little as 60 to 80 pounds, to minimize collateral damage in an urban area. But it can also penetrate the earth to hit bunkers or tunnels.
And the Israelis, too, are resorting to tricks.
Israeli intelligence officers are telephoning Gazans and, in good Arabic, pretending to be sympathetic Egyptians, Saudis, Jordanians or Libyans, Gazans say and Israel has confirmed. After expressing horror at the Israeli war and asking about the family, the callers ask about local conditions, whether the family supports Hamas and if there are fighters in the building or the neighborhood.
Karim Abu Shaban, 21, of Gaza City said he and his neighbors all had gotten such calls. His first caller had an Egyptian accent. ???Oh, God help you, God be with you,??? the caller began.
???It started very supportive,??? Mr. Shaban said, then the questions started. The next call came in five minutes later. That caller had an Algerian accent and asked if he had reached Gaza. Mr. Shaban said he answered, ???No, Tel Aviv,??? and hung up.
Interviews last week with senior Israeli intelligence and military officers, both active and retired, as well as with military experts and residents of Gaza itself, made it clear that the battle, waged among civilians and between enemies who had long prepared for this fight, is now a slow, nasty business of asymmetrical urban warfare. Gaza???s civilians, who cannot flee because the borders are closed, are ???the meat in the sandwich,??? as one United Nations worker said, requesting anonymity.
It is also clear that both sides are evolving tactics to the new battlefield, then adjusting them quickly.
To that end, Israeli intelligence is detaining large numbers of young Gazan men to interrogate them for local knowledge and Hamas tactics. Last week, Israel captured a hand-drawn Hamas map in a house in Al Atatra, near Beit Lahiya, which showed planned defensive positions for the neighborhood, mine and booby trap placements, including a rigged gasoline station, and directions for snipers to shoot next to a mosque. Numerous tunnels were marked.
A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called ???a knock on the roof.???
But the most important strategic decision the Israelis have made so far, according to senior military officers and analysts, is to approach their incursion as a war, not a police operation.
Civilians are warned by leaflets, loudspeakers and telephone calls to evacuate battle areas. But troops are instructed to protect themselves first and civilians second.
Officers say that means Israeli infantry units are going in ???heavy.??? If they draw fire, they return it with heavy firepower. If they are told to reach an objective, they first call in artillery or airpower and use tank fire. Then they move, but only behind tanks and armored bulldozers, riding in armored personnel carriers, spending as little time in the open as possible.
As the commander of the army???s elite combat engineering unit, Yahalom, told the Israeli press on Wednesday: ???We are very violent. We do not balk at any means to protect the lives of our soldiers.??? His name cannot be published under censorship rules.
???Urban warfare is the most difficult battlefield, where Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a relative advantage, with local knowledge and prepared positions,??? said Jonathan Fighel of Israel???s International Institute for Counterterrorism. ???Hamas has a doctrine; this is not a gang of Rambos,??? he said. ???The Israeli military has to find the stitches to unpick, how to counterbalance and surprise.???
Israeli troops are moving slowly and, they hope, unpredictably, trying not to stay in one place for long to entice Hamas fighters ???to come out and confront them,??? Mr. Fighel said.
Today, he said, ???the mind-set from top to bottom is fight and fight cruel; this is a war, not another pinpoint operation.???
Israeli officials say that they are obeying the rules of war and trying hard not to hurt noncombatants but that Hamas is using civilians as human shields in the expectation that Israel will try to avoid killing them.
Israeli press officers call the tactics of Hamas cynical, illegal and inhumane; even Israel???s critics agree that Hamas???s regular use of rockets to fire at civilians in Israel, and its use of civilians as shields in Gaza, are also violations of the rules of war. Israeli military men and analysts say that its urban guerrilla tactics, including the widespread use of civilian structures and tunnels, are deliberate and come from the Iranian Army???s tactical training and the lessons of the 2006 war between Israel and Iranian-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Hamas rocket and weapons caches, including rocket launchers, have been discovered in and under mosques, schools and civilian homes, the army says. The Israeli intelligence chief, Yuval Diskin, in a report to the Israeli cabinet, said that the Gaza-based
leadership of Hamas was in underground housing beneath the No. 2 building of Shifa Hospital, the largest in Gaza. That allegation cannot be confirmed.
While The New York Times and some other news organizations have local or Gaza-based Palestinian correspondents, any Israeli citizen or Israeli with dual citizenship has been banned for more than two years from entering Gaza, and any foreign correspondent who did not enter the territory before a six-month cease-fire with Hamas ended last month has not been allowed in.
Israel has also managed to block cellphone bandwidth, so very few amateur cellphone photographs are getting out of Gaza.
But Israeli tactics have caused civilian casualties that have created an international uproar, both in the Arab world and the West. In one widely reported episode, 43 people died when the Israelis shelled a street next to a United Nations school in northern Jabaliya where refugees were taking shelter. The United Nations says no militants were in the school.
The Israelis said they returned fire in response to mortar shells fired at Israeli troops. Such an action is legal, but there are questions about whether the force used was proportional under the laws of war, given the danger to noncombatants.
The school attack is one example of how Israel may be able to dismantle Hamas???s military structure while losing the battle for world opinion and leaving Hamas politically still in charge of Gaza. Those, too, are realities and risks of urban warfare.
Taghreed El-Khodary contributed reporting from Gaza.
Also, I'd say that Gentiles who are troubled by Israel's actions in Gaza aren't so much upset by the violence, but feel threatened by the existence of a Jewish state.
I feel like you should analyze more, troll less
It just boils down to self interest. A strong & secure Jewish state might make Gentiles feel ill at ease, whereas for a Jew its a desirable thing. The thing that I find funny is, rather than come out & say that they don't want to see the existence of a Jewish state in any way, shape or form, non-Jews hide behind phony sympathy for the Palestinian people. I don't think it's sincere at all. The issue of Palestine allows gentiles to veil their anti-semetic leanings behind a veneer of compassion & justice, and affords them a way to hate us with less guilt and more conviction.
What a crock of shit. Sure, for those who are actual anti-semites, the actions of Israel can be an excuse for preaching their hate - but there are millions of people in the world who are just looking at Israel as a state that is acting with undue agression and little regard for innocents as they flex their considerable military power, no anti-semitism involved.
When the time come for your kind to kill my kind again, I'm sure you'll feel better about it. You'll cry for the Palestinian "innocents" as they march us through the streets to the camps. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
So basically you've run out of coherent arguments to justify the murder of nearly 300 children and resorted to 'the human race is essentially flawed', as a blanket justification for everything and anything. well done.
Not only that, I don't have any justification for the millions of children killed throughout the history of man.
And I was simply agreeing with a post Haz made, it was not my "argument".
Then you were agreeing with something unreasonable.
Baby steps Rock:
If we take the idea that There are no crimes in war[/b], does that mean that people can't be put on trial for their crimes after a war?
I'd advise you or Haz to think very carefully[/b] before answering this.
Another side of Haz's statement would seem to deny that their hasn't been any progress for the human race - no evolution?
Another side of Haz's statement would seem to deny that their hasn't been any progress for the human race - no evolution?
While you and I may be "evolving" through education, philosophy and personal morals, that dude that cut off Daniel Pearl's head, and many more like him are still living in the world Haz described.
That in itself is one of the difficulties of fighting these types of enemies while maintaining some sort of moral high road.
Out of curiousity do you consider Hiroshima & Nagasaki "war crimes"??
Another side of Haz's statement would seem to deny that their hasn't been any progress for the human race - no evolution?
While you and I may be "evolving" through education, philosophy and personal morals, that dude that cut off Daniel Pearl's head, and many more like him are still living in the world Haz described.
That in itself is one of the difficulties of fighting these types of enemies while maintaining some sort of moral high road.
Out of curiousity do you consider Hiroshima & Nagasaki "war crimes"??
General conduct of war has varied a great deal over millenia. Christmas day soccer in no-man's land during WW1. Refraining from backstabbing at the Battle of Agincourt despite the insane slaughter. Women and other noncombatants taking picnic lunches to battle during the Civil War. Armies and, especially, navies, for centuries treating captured enemy officers with more respect than their own soldiers. Nineteenth-century American armies feeling justified in slaughtering Indians because they were cowardly --they hid in the bushes and behind trees while fighting instead of presenting their naked breasts to bullets.You have a "common-sense" conception of military history because, apparently, you don't read many books.
Without realizing it --I'll give you the benefit of the doubt- you are also a racist. The hardcore Islamic fundamentalists of Pakistan are somehow perfectly equivalent to Hamas and the other elements of Palestinian society resisting the Occupation. This is like being unable to distinguish a pick-up truck from a Humvee.
Across the street, behind a cordon, the Rabbi Avraham Greenberg took his Israeli passport from its plastic wallet and slowly set it on fire with a gas lighter until its ashes floated around him. He explained to the small crowd on the pavement that he had been born in the state of Israel but he was ashamed to hold a passport from that country. He stood with more than a dozen Orthodox rabbis who joined in chants of "Judaism here to stay, Zionism no way".
Because in a conflict like this, there is no middle group: if you actively oppose one side (Israel), you are helping the other side (Hamas), whether you admit it to yourself or not.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Ben, are you not ashamed of Israel at this point? You OK with this?
That's at least 15 utterly disgusting instances of breaking international law worth of retaliation I'm certain.
I don't really think anyone could seriously be offended by such idiocy as displayed in these protest photos: Misguided, soft, middle class "activists" who paint a somehow mildly amusing but more so sad image of todays far left. There are also some disturbing if not entirely unpredictable tendencies to observe on T-shirts and banners. Especially the call for "war forever", "globalization of the Intifada" and the somehow familiar sounding idea to "target all Zionist businesses".
Interesting to see the many swastikas and holocaust comparisons especially considering that german nazis have recently also discovered a strong interest in fighting for the palestinian cause:
Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is a bestseller in many Arab countries by the way...
Your avatar was a bit too blurry for me to read but seeing it larger convinced me of its greatness: Too bad they didn't mannage to also incorporate global warming into this poster, otherwise I'd buy the T-shirt.
I wanted to write something serious at first but seeing how this thread has developed, I'm staying away from that...
I'm not watching too many American news these days, did anybody publish that Bush has denied an Isreali request for assistance in bombing nuclear plants in Iran and also denied permission to fly over Iraq?
Because in a conflict like this, there is no middle group: if you actively oppose one side (Israel), you are helping the other side (Hamas), whether you admit it to yourself or not.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
How do generalisations like that help? What a stupid, short-sighted statement. If the author is trying to make an argument black and white, then we'd end up at this:
"Yes, I oppose what Israel is doing because they are EVIL[/b]. So Hamas are obviously GOOD[/b]"
I'm not saying that, and neither is anybody else who condemns Israel's actions. But this is exactly the same blind rhetoric that the Bush Regime used...
Comments
Hamas thinks Israel is evil, Israel thinks Hamas is evil. The side that wins this war is right.
I feel like you should analyze more, troll less
It just boils down to self interest. A strong & secure Jewish state might make Gentiles feel ill at ease, whereas for a Jew its a desirable thing. The thing that I find funny is, rather than come out & say that they don't want to see the existence of a Jewish state in any way, shape or form, non-Jews hide behind phony sympathy for the Palestinian people. I don't think it's sincere at all. The issue of Palestine allows gentiles to veil their anti-semetic leanings behind a veneer of compassion & justice, and affords them a way to hate us with less guilt and more conviction.
What a crock of shit. Sure, for those who are actual anti-semites, the
actions of Israel can be an excuse for preaching their hate - but there
are millions of people in the world who are just looking at Israel as a
state that is acting with undue aggression and little regard for innocents
as they flex their considerable military power, no anti-semitism involved.
When the time come for your kind to kill my kind again, I'm sure you'll feel better about it. You'll cry for the Palestinian "innocents" as they march us through the streets to the camps. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
shove it up your ass. You want to talk about anybody who takes
issue with Israel must hate Jews, expect to be called full of shit.
You asshole.
Don't hate the player, especially when you made the game.
Who the fuck do you think you are even talking to?
Haz, it's sad to see that you're still on your personal mission to vindicate the Nazis. Please stop and take your head out of your ass.
All of my questions aimed at people I was expecting an intelligent response from have either been deemed unanswerable, and on a thread with this many 'bad looks' it's not surprising, or ignorable.
I'd take PMs, but I guess if it really doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter.
You have a really fucked up view of the world HAZ. I truly feel sorry for you.
Morning Rock. Can you smell that? Yes. That's it. Mmmmm. Have some coffee. Don't worry - it's safe, the rest of the world drinks it.
War Crimes.
Wreckognize.
Mornin'
I've never ever even tasted coffee.
In the history of humankind the first war was fought 4,700 years ago.
It wasn't until the Hague Conventions in 1899 and 1907 that "War Crimes" were defined and recognized......they were further honed in 1945.
Before that there was the loosely based concept of perfidy in place for a couple of hundred years.
This means that for 4,400 years wars were fought exactly as Haz described.
And in (almost)every war SINCE 1899 war crimes have been committed, usually by the losers of said wars.
You can change the future but you can't change the past.
Class, what does a statement like this symbolize?
Not only that, I don't have any justification for the millions of children killed throughout the history of man.
And I was simply agreeing with a post Haz made, it was not my "argument".
January 11, 2009
A Gaza War Full of Traps and Trickery
By STEVEN ERLANGER
JERUSALEM ??? The grinding urban battle unfolding in the densely populated Gaza Strip is a war of new tactics, quick adaptation and lethal tricks.
Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership???s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza???s largest hospital, Israeli intelligence officials say.
Unwilling to take Israel???s bait and come into the open, Hamas militants are fighting in civilian clothes; even the police have been ordered to take off their uniforms. The militants emerge from tunnels to shoot automatic weapons or antitank missiles, then disappear back inside, hoping to lure the Israeli soldiers with their fire.
In one apartment building in Zeitoun, in northern Gaza, Hamas set an inventive, deadly trap. According to an Israeli journalist embedded with Israeli troops, the militants placed a mannequin in a hallway off the building???s main entrance. They hoped to draw fire from Israeli soldiers who might, through the blur of night vision goggles and split-second decisions, mistake the figure for a fighter. The mannequin was rigged to explode and bring down the building.
In an interview, the reporter, Ron Ben-Yishai, a senior military correspondent for the newspaper Yediot Aharonot, said soldiers also found a pile of weapons with a grenade launcher on top. When they moved the launcher, ???they saw a detonator light up, but somehow it didn???t go off.???
The Israeli Army has also come prepared for a battle both sides knew was inevitable. Every soldier, Israeli officials say, is outfitted with a ceramic vest and a helmet. Every unit has dogs trained to sniff out explosives and people hidden in tunnels, as well as combat engineers trained to defuse hidden bombs.
To avoid booby traps, the Israelis say, they enter buildings by breaking through side walls, rather than going in the front. Once inside, they move from room to room, battering holes in interior walls to avoid exposure to snipers and suicide bombers dressed as civilians, with explosive belts hidden beneath winter coats.
The Israelis say they are also using new weapons, like a small-diameter smart bomb, the GBU-39, which Israel bought last fall from Washington. The bomb, which is very accurate, has a small explosive, as little as 60 to 80 pounds, to minimize collateral damage in an urban area. But it can also penetrate the earth to hit bunkers or tunnels.
And the Israelis, too, are resorting to tricks.
Israeli intelligence officers are telephoning Gazans and, in good Arabic, pretending to be sympathetic Egyptians, Saudis, Jordanians or Libyans, Gazans say and Israel has confirmed. After expressing horror at the Israeli war and asking about the family, the callers ask about local conditions, whether the family supports Hamas and if there are fighters in the building or the neighborhood.
Karim Abu Shaban, 21, of Gaza City said he and his neighbors all had gotten such calls. His first caller had an Egyptian accent. ???Oh, God help you, God be with you,??? the caller began.
???It started very supportive,??? Mr. Shaban said, then the questions started. The next call came in five minutes later. That caller had an Algerian accent and asked if he had reached Gaza. Mr. Shaban said he answered, ???No, Tel Aviv,??? and hung up.
Interviews last week with senior Israeli intelligence and military officers, both active and retired, as well as with military experts and residents of Gaza itself, made it clear that the battle, waged among civilians and between enemies who had long prepared for this fight, is now a slow, nasty business of asymmetrical urban warfare. Gaza???s civilians, who cannot flee because the borders are closed, are ???the meat in the sandwich,??? as one United Nations worker said, requesting anonymity.
It is also clear that both sides are evolving tactics to the new battlefield, then adjusting them quickly.
To that end, Israeli intelligence is detaining large numbers of young Gazan men to interrogate them for local knowledge and Hamas tactics. Last week, Israel captured a hand-drawn Hamas map in a house in Al Atatra, near Beit Lahiya, which showed planned defensive positions for the neighborhood, mine and booby trap placements, including a rigged gasoline station, and directions for snipers to shoot next to a mosque. Numerous tunnels were marked.
A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called ???a knock on the roof.???
But the most important strategic decision the Israelis have made so far, according to senior military officers and analysts, is to approach their incursion as a war, not a police operation.
Civilians are warned by leaflets, loudspeakers and telephone calls to evacuate battle areas. But troops are instructed to protect themselves first and civilians second.
Officers say that means Israeli infantry units are going in ???heavy.??? If they draw fire, they return it with heavy firepower. If they are told to reach an objective, they first call in artillery or airpower and use tank fire. Then they move, but only behind tanks and armored bulldozers, riding in armored personnel carriers, spending as little time in the open as possible.
As the commander of the army???s elite combat engineering unit, Yahalom, told the Israeli press on Wednesday: ???We are very violent. We do not balk at any means to protect the lives of our soldiers.??? His name cannot be published under censorship rules.
???Urban warfare is the most difficult battlefield, where Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a relative advantage, with local knowledge and prepared positions,??? said Jonathan Fighel of Israel???s International Institute for Counterterrorism. ???Hamas has a doctrine; this is not a gang of Rambos,??? he said. ???The Israeli military has to find the stitches to unpick, how to counterbalance and surprise.???
Israeli troops are moving slowly and, they hope, unpredictably, trying not to stay in one place for long to entice Hamas fighters ???to come out and confront them,??? Mr. Fighel said.
Today, he said, ???the mind-set from top to bottom is fight and fight cruel; this is a war, not another pinpoint operation.???
Israeli officials say that they are obeying the rules of war and trying hard not to hurt noncombatants but that Hamas is using civilians as human shields in the expectation that Israel will try to avoid killing them.
Israeli press officers call the tactics of Hamas cynical, illegal and inhumane; even Israel???s critics agree that Hamas???s regular use of rockets to fire at civilians in Israel, and its use of civilians as shields in Gaza, are also violations of the rules of war. Israeli military men and analysts say that its urban guerrilla tactics, including the widespread use of civilian structures and tunnels, are deliberate and come from the Iranian Army???s tactical training and the lessons of the 2006 war between Israel and Iranian-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon.
Hamas rocket and weapons caches, including rocket launchers, have been discovered in and under mosques, schools and civilian homes, the army says. The Israeli intelligence chief, Yuval Diskin, in a report to the Israeli cabinet, said that the Gaza-based leadership of Hamas was in underground housing beneath the No. 2 building of Shifa Hospital, the largest in Gaza. That allegation cannot be confirmed.
While The New York Times and some other news organizations have local or Gaza-based Palestinian correspondents, any Israeli citizen or Israeli with dual citizenship has been banned for more than two years from entering Gaza, and any foreign correspondent who did not enter the territory before a six-month cease-fire with Hamas ended last month has not been allowed in.
Israel has also managed to block cellphone bandwidth, so very few amateur cellphone photographs are getting out of Gaza.
But Israeli tactics have caused civilian casualties that have created an international uproar, both in the Arab world and the West. In one widely reported episode, 43 people died when the Israelis shelled a street next to a United Nations school in northern Jabaliya where refugees were taking shelter. The United Nations says no militants were in the school.
The Israelis said they returned fire in response to mortar shells fired at Israeli troops. Such an action is legal, but there are questions about whether the force used was proportional under the laws of war, given the danger to noncombatants.
The school attack is one example of how Israel may be able to dismantle Hamas???s military structure while losing the battle for world opinion and leaving Hamas politically still in charge of Gaza. Those, too, are realities and risks of urban warfare.
Taghreed El-Khodary contributed reporting from Gaza.
...wow. just....wow.
smh
Then you were agreeing with something unreasonable.
Baby steps Rock:
If we take the idea that There are no crimes in war[/b], does that mean that people can't be put on trial for their crimes after a war?
I'd advise you or Haz to think very carefully[/b] before answering this.
Another side of Haz's statement would seem to deny that their hasn't been any progress for the human race - no evolution?
While you and I may be "evolving" through education, philosophy and personal morals, that dude that cut off Daniel Pearl's head, and many more like him are still living in the world Haz described.
That in itself is one of the difficulties of fighting these types of enemies while maintaining some sort of moral high road.
Out of curiousity do you consider Hiroshima & Nagasaki "war crimes"??
General conduct of war has varied a great deal over millenia. Christmas day soccer in no-man's land during WW1. Refraining from backstabbing at the Battle of Agincourt despite the insane slaughter. Women and other noncombatants taking picnic lunches to battle during the Civil War. Armies and, especially, navies, for centuries treating captured enemy officers with more respect than their own soldiers. Nineteenth-century American armies feeling justified in slaughtering Indians because they were cowardly --they hid in the bushes and behind trees while fighting instead of presenting their naked breasts to bullets.You have a "common-sense" conception of military history because, apparently, you don't read many books.
Without realizing it --I'll give you the benefit of the doubt- you are also a racist. The hardcore Islamic fundamentalists of Pakistan are somehow perfectly equivalent to Hamas and the other elements of Palestinian society resisting the Occupation. This is like being unable to distinguish a pick-up truck from a Humvee.
(not my blog BTW).
Aw poor Israelis, someone stomped on your flag.
That's at least 15 utterly disgusting instances of breaking international law worth of retaliation I'm certain.
(during pro-israeli demonstrations in London)
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
Ben, are you not ashamed of Israel at this point? You OK with this?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j_suGvYgZ4hwcMplsjmGbnqpmHJAD95LNB200
I don't really think anyone could seriously be offended by such idiocy as displayed in these protest photos: Misguided, soft, middle class "activists" who paint a somehow mildly amusing but more so sad image of todays far left. There are also some disturbing if not entirely unpredictable tendencies to observe on T-shirts and banners. Especially the call for "war forever", "globalization of the Intifada" and the somehow familiar sounding idea to "target all Zionist businesses".
Interesting to see the many swastikas and holocaust comparisons especially considering that german nazis have recently also discovered a strong interest in fighting for the palestinian cause:
Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is a bestseller in many Arab countries by the way...
Your avatar was a bit too blurry for me to read but seeing it larger convinced me of its greatness:
Too bad they didn't mannage to also incorporate global warming into this poster, otherwise I'd buy the T-shirt.
I wanted to write something serious at first but seeing how this thread has developed, I'm staying away from that...
I'm not watching too many American news these days, did anybody publish that Bush has denied an Isreali request for assistance in bombing nuclear plants in Iran and also denied permission to fly over Iraq?
How do generalisations like that help? What a stupid, short-sighted statement. If the author is trying to make an argument black and white, then we'd end up at this:
"Yes, I oppose what Israel is doing because they are EVIL[/b]. So Hamas are obviously GOOD[/b]"
I'm not saying that, and neither is anybody else who condemns Israel's actions. But this is exactly the same blind rhetoric that the Bush Regime used...
and other... 'movements'