It's really hard to take your defenses of McCain seriously with Kenny Loggins in your avatar.b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121I'm fine with all of this as long as Powell stays retired and does not re-enter the sphere of foreign policy ever again.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121It's really hard to take your defenses of McCain seriously with Kenny Loggins in your avatar.b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121You gotta problem with the Log? Have you heard this record? It's quite good. This is It. Keep the Fire. I'm not saying it's Thelonius Sphere Monk or Soundbombing 2, but it's a good little record.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Some might think Powell is backing Obama just because he's black.b,121b,121Some might think that Powell just came to his senses, saw the light and abandoned his life long held views to support Obama.b,121b,121Some might think that he's supporting Obama because their views are pretty similar and Obama has a better chance of getting centrist policies passed than McCain.b,121b,121 b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121Rock speaking truth!b,121b,121As for all this chatter about semiotic racism...b,121b,121Vitamin: You seem to be suggesting that the only way in which the GOP or McCain could legitimately be accused of stirring the racial waters is if Palin called him out for being an "uppity nigger." Obama Bucks aside, it's highly unlikely that any kind of explicit racist rhetoric - on that level - is going to come from the campaign. So what we're left with are more subtle forms of racist rhetoric that may or may not be at play. b,121b,121It's difficult to gauge INTENT unless someone leaks a memo that says, "let's go after race!" Again: that's not not likely to happen though you'd have to be completely disingenuous to believe those conversations are NOT happening behind strategist doors. b,121b,121So figuring out intent may not be possible but result is, at least, open to debate and that brings into play a whole different set of evaluations and criteria. Challenging a Black candidate on the grounds of "is he American enough?" is different from doing the same to a White candidate because throughout American history, since before America was "America," Black people have been, in some form or other, perpetual outsiders and foreigners, right? We are talking about a people who once weren't counted as 100% people, remember? People for whom our nation's laws didn't protect from Jim Crow until less than 50 years ago, yes? b,121b,121So no Black candidate - in 2008 - faces the same realities as a White candidate. Accusing the latter of being un-American simply doesn't carry the same historical associations of "other"-ness. It doesn't play on a well-established set of social biases around whether "they" will ever be one of "us". b,121b,121It'd be the same thing if Hillary Clinton had won the nom and was running right now. No one with a straight face could argue that gender wouldn't be at play in the campaign just because there's no GOP slogans that say, "A Bitch Iz a Bitch." b,121b,121As for the idea that McCain is getting reversed smeared...I believe the more historically applicable term would be "chickens coming home to roost" or perhaps, in McCain's parlance, "blowback." Maybe the Ayers thing really doesn't have a thing to do with race but it's such a line of utter bullshit - especially to stake a campaign on - that McCain deserves to reap the repercussions, whatever twisted form they may take (and right now, it's hard to say if Ayers is helping him OR hurting him in any substantial way).
"But it is not Birth of a Nation, it is not Amos and Andy, it is not Jesse Helms and it is not George Wallace. "b,121b,121See - this is what I'm talking about. Is that where the threshold is set? Contemporary racism is a much more sophisticated game than the days where you could throw up a "no coloreds sign" in front of a bathroom.
Since the Republican convention the McCain camp has decided to go negative. Those attacks have for the most part been personal attacks on Obama, not ones about policy. It's this line of campaigning that has opened the door for all these other Republican party offices and such to go even farther in their attacks. And again, when McCain in the last debate was asked about it he said there are always fringe people that show up at meetings, but he said his supporters were some of the best in the country. He didn't take that opportunity to tell them that they were getting out of hand. He's a gonner and his campaign workers are partly to blame for running this kind of crap out to the American people, especially when the country is facing a financial crisis.
There is only one reason to resort to a negative campaign.b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121It works.
Rock: I think that's the conventional wisdom but it gets repeated too much out of context. Negativity can be an asset but it's hardly the road to victory. In most LOSING campaigns, the candidate will have gone negative yet...they still lost!
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Rock: I think that's the conventional wisdom but it gets repeated too much out of context. Negativity can be an asset but it's hardly the road to victory. In most LOSING campaigns, the candidate will have gone negative yet...they still lost! b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121We're certainly going to find out.
font class="post"1b,121b,121how does one becume, errr, over-educated?b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121a sly and eloquent oratorb,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121yeah thats terrible. our emberassing hillbilly of a president now is so much better.b,121b,121 b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121who may be more radical than he is letting on, b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121YOur views seem way more radical than most of the so called "radical" liberals I know. what makes us radical anyways? that we think people should be treated equally? that we beleive in dinasours and science???? what is so f*cking radical? I don't get it. you hard core right wingers are radical to the point of dangerousness. trying to turn america into a christian theocracy is radical.b,121b,121b,121b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121a dove peacenik who would meet with dictators,b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121rather than just invade for the hell of it?b,121b,121b,121 /font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121a typical liberal who will raise your taxes.b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121I don't make over 250 thousand. YOu do? Oh that's right, you are jobless. HOw's that unimployment insurance that I pay treating you?b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Aren't there a very different set of stereotypes and critiques employed by your garden variety racist? b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121The garden variety racists are afraid that obama is an arab and think pailin's qualifications are that "she has the holy spirit in her".b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121 No. That ad was saying that Obama is a celebrated elite who is more at home speaking thousands of adoring Germans than regular, simple Americans. b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121Looks like your stereotype of regular "simple" americans (read: flag waving, gun toting, jesus loving, uneducated redneck) has wizened up and will be voting for somebody who has actually learned how to talked to them.b,121b,121b,121b,121face it dude, you represent the WORST that this country has to offer. sorry it hurts your feelings, but you and bigoted hate-spreading collegues are about to get shown the door.
oh and by the way... this so called "Elite" slur is so ridiculous.... its like saying going to college and getting smart makes you dangerous to america. it almost sounds like they want to keep us all dumb and uneducated....b,121b,121oh wait.....
One thing I like about Obama is he has brought some of my favorite posters (Gary, Herm... all the first name dudes) into the political threads. b,121b,121Dan
Quote:/font1h,121b,121One thing I like about Obama is he has brought some of my favorite posters (Gary, Herm... all the first name dudes) into the political threads. b,121b,121Dan b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Awwww...thanks, D*n!b,121b,121But I have to say that I kinda hate the political threads. To me it's just a bunch of smart folks (and smart dumb cats) speaking smart talk for no reason other than to speak smart talk. I mean, it's politics. You're not gonna change anybody's mind. You're probably not even gonna cause an "aha!" moment. (Not you as in YOU specifically, D*n.)b,121b,121The whole thing becomes silly, pointless arguments between the right & the left. (Well, points are made but either ignored or over-the-head of the person they're directed at so it's a wash.) Not to mention the even weirder ones between people on the same damn side. b,121b,121The only reason I click on them is to find links and videos that I would otherwise miss. Plus I love Gary's talent for breaking up unnecessary tension.b,121b,121Life's too short to discuss politics!
political threads are an invaluable resource of the strut...between motown, dan,odubb, vitamin,rockadelic,etc...i have a well researched, finger on the pulse, linked up, clever, comabatative, intergenerational take on current politics. F*ck CNN! i go to soulstrut first!!b,121b,121with that being said...GET 'EM GARY!!!!b,121b,121b,121and powell....i was really feeling whathe said today. but would have way more impressed if it was said even a week ago. tide has shifted strongly obama recently. if it had sifted toward mccain, would powell still be with barack?
Quote:/font1h,121b,121political threads are an invaluable resource of the strut...between motown, dan,odubb, vitamin,rockadelic,etc...i have a well researched, finger on the pulse, linked up, clever, comabatative, intergenerational take on current politics. F*ck CNN! i go to soulstrut first!!b,121b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121I feel you. My dislike of political threads stems from my dislike of political discussions period. Like I said, nothing's ever solved, minds aren't changed. I just avoid the unnecessary frustration and anger. I can't recall one political thread that was argument-, drama- & bullshit-free. Ever.b,121b,121I can see how reading these can prepare somebody for some real-world talks though.
Who knows.b,121b,121This is really good campaign strategy for Obama though to have these big endorsements trickle in every few days...I can imagine they actually asked some of these folks to wait on their endorsements until later so that they get that final media push going strong.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 Like I said, nothing's ever solved, minds aren't changed. b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121dont be so sure about that.argument neednot be looked at as a bad thing. its been invaluable to have rock and vitamin in the thick of things...even though the majority on here disagree with them on many issues. but i think weve all found common ground in each others different stances and takes on things. well, maybe not vitamins, but you see what im saying.b,121b,121in the real world, ive seen several lifelong republicans slowly shift over to the democratic ticket over the last 5 years. dont know if it was just reading the tea leaves or how much it was influenced by spirited conversations with democratic friends...but it happened. those willingto debate/argue/yell are at least engaging in an exchange, which opens up the possibility of hearing out the other side.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121 Like I said, nothing's ever solved, minds aren't changed. b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121dont be so sure about that.argument neednot be looked at as a bad thing. its been invaluable to have rock and vitamin in the thick of things...even though the majority on here disagree with them on many issues. but i think weve all found common ground in each others different stances and takes on things. well, maybe not vitamins, but you see what im saying.b,121b,121in the real world, ive seen several lifelong republicans slowly shift over to the democratic ticket over the last 5 years. dont know if it was just reading the tea leaves or how much it was influenced by spirited conversations with democratic friends...but it happened. those willingto debate/argue/yell are at least engaging in an exchange, which opens up the possibility of hearing out the other side. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121Yeah, I guess I just don't have the patience for it. I only feel this way about politics, though. I'm a stubborn motherhubbard so best believe I'll get in some "spirited" debates with fools in the real world. (I try to avoid it on the innernets.)
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121One thing I like about Obama is he has brought some of my favorite posters (Gary, Herm... all the first name dudes) into the political threads. b,121b,121Dan b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Awwww...thanks, D*n!b,121b,121But I have to say that I kinda hate the political threads. To me it's just a bunch of smart folks (and smart dumb cats) speaking smart talk for no reason other than to speak smart talk. I mean, it's politics. You're not gonna change anybody's mind. You're probably not even gonna cause an "aha!" moment. (Not you as in YOU specifically, D*n.)b,121b,121The whole thing becomes silly, pointless arguments between the right & the left. (Well, points are made but either ignored or over-the-head of the person they're directed at so it's a wash.) Not to mention the even weirder ones between people on the same damn side. b,121b,121The only reason I click on them is to find links and videos that I would otherwise miss. Plus I love Gary's talent for breaking up unnecessary tension.b,121b,121Life's too short to discuss politics! b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121b,121LOCATION: ARIZONAb,121b,121B/Wb,121b,121THE LATINO VOTE SPEAK-ETH
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121As for all this chatter about semiotic racism...b,121b,121Vitamin: You seem to be suggesting that the only way in which the GOP or McCain could legitimately be accused of stirring the racial waters is if Palin called him out for being an "uppity nigger." Obama Bucks aside, it's highly unlikely that any kind of explicit racist rhetoric - on that level - is going to come from the campaign. So what we're left with are more subtle forms of racist rhetoric that may or may not be at play. b,121b,121It's difficult to gauge INTENT unless someone leaks a memo that says, "let's go after race!" Again: that's not not likely to happen though you'd have to be completely disingenuous to believe those conversations are NOT happening behind strategist doors. b,121b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121"More subtle forms of racist rhetoric" does a lot of work here. My problem is not even with the notion of semiotic racism, which I grant exists. When Reagan would tell anecdotes about welfare recipients driving Cadillacs to pick up welfare checks, that's semiotic racism. It's that the concept is so elastic. I don't really know anymore what it means today. Does a commercial that features Franklin Reins, former Fannie Mae CEO and Obama advisor, count as semiotic racism? Reines is black and that is basically what Karen Tumulty of Time Magazine said. Also I don't think McCain is really playing these particular Lakoffian notes. His dog whistles are actually more about class. He is not forwarding at least traditionally negative stereotypes about black people. To what American racist trope does the educated, eloquent radical progressive belong? The uppity n word? Maybe. My point is that this is not playing into at least more dangerous, uglier stereotypes about American blacks, which we both know occupy more space in the cannon of American racism. b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 So figuring out intent may not be possible but result is, at least, open to debate and that brings into play a whole different set of evaluations and criteria. Challenging a Black candidate on the grounds of "is he American enough?" is different from doing the same to a White candidate because throughout American history, since before America was "America," Black people have been, in some form or other, perpetual outsiders and foreigners, right? We are talking about a people who once weren't counted as 100% people, remember? People for whom our nation's laws didn't protect from Jim Crow until less than 50 years ago, yes? b,121b,121So no Black candidate - in 2008 - faces the same realities as a White candidate. Accusing the latter of being un-American simply doesn't carry the same historical associations of "other"-ness. It doesn't play on a well-established set of social biases around whether "they" will ever be one of "us". b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121Now on this, I think you have a point that I had not considered. Ayers in particular, because he did violence against the state (which would be a basic definition of un-Americanness) is a way of calling into doubt at the very least Obama's love of country. That is also why, I think, so many Republicans seized on Michelle Obama's comments about being proud of her country for the first time in her lifetime. b,121b,121But at this point, are we really talking about race or are we talking about politics? I don't doubt Obama's love of country. And please people don't twist what I am saying here. I am not questioning the man's patriotism. I read the entire investigation into Ayers as the process of political vetting. I am center-right, particularly on national security. So when I learn about Ayers, I am hearing Obama is a leftist, which is troubling because he is campaigning as a centrist. For me Ayers is a sign post indicating a dangerous neutralism in foreign affairs, but also a hard left conception of America itself, which relegates our country to the same moral standing as our enemies. b,121b,121I am not saying Obama or Democrats think there is no moral distinction between the U.S. military and al Qaeda, though that was explicitly said by Reverend Wright in a sermon right after 9-11. I am saying that before Obama became a national figure, he seemed to have views and associations that indicate a progressive left agenda that I would like to see fully vetted and examined before we pick him to be our president. Can't McCain just be making that point and not one that implies that Obama is some Manchurian candidate? I actually have to say that you have persuaded me that the Ayers attack could be both. b,121b,121As it stands, I think Obama is Clintonian. I think he is something of an ideological chameleon. I think he made the connections and contacts he did in Hyde Park in order to get elected to the Illinois State Senate. I think when he got to the U.S. Senate he found some new principals and new associations to help him become president. b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121 As for the idea that McCain is getting reversed smeared...I believe the more historically applicable term would be "chickens coming home to roost" or perhaps, in McCain's parlance, "blowback." Maybe the Ayers thing really doesn't have a thing to do with race but it's such a line of utter bullshit - especially to stake a campaign on - that McCain deserves to reap the repercussions, whatever twisted form they may take (and right now, it's hard to say if Ayers is helping him OR hurting him in any substantial way). b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121You are correct that no one is wanting to hear about 1968 in 2008 when the world financial markets are imploding by the day. I disagree that the attack is bullshit, but we've been round and round on that point. I will say this however about the semiotic critique. We have to be careful here. I grant that makers of modern ad campaigns, the spin doctors, the speech writers, the technical political class spend lots of time and research on manipulating images and words and emotions to connote something beneath the literal text. But when we judge and conduct campaigns through their symbolic meanings, we ultimately degrade the national debate. Campaigns ought to be fought out as text. Politicians should attack the positions and policies and votes and yes, past associations, or each other. If it becomes common place to attack an adversary's implied meaning and not his actual positions, then debate itself is in peril. We lose the plain meaning of language. It's like everyone is in on some joke that is really on us. b,121b,121b,121One addendum. A friend who is supporting Obama over dinner tonight brought to my attention that McCain refers to Obama's tax plan as a form of welfare. That does sound like a fairly ugly little dog whistle. Though I have to see the text.
Gary, b,121b,121Let me guess, you are voting for Obama. It must be wonderful to unload all of your rectified scorn on someone who is not. But you clearly missed what I was writing. Most of what you wrote is a response to what I characterized as McCain's campaign against Obama. If you have a problem with this characterization of Obama, you should take it up with the McCain campaign. I was summarizing the campaign's ads and speeches into basic messages and asking others on the board to tell me how this was racist. O-dub did just that and moved the conversation forward. You just like to insult people on behalf of a candidate who likely has no idea who you are.
b,121b,121what is the meaning of this phrase? b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121In the context of what E** was saying, it's akin to a (flimsily-) coded, signified racism. I agree with E** that the mention of Spears and Hilton was not semiotic or latent racism. It's reaching to suggest otherwise. Simply because white losers are tied to a black man doesn't constitute racism. Period. It's more insulting to be compared to an insubstantial airhead, frankly, because it implies that Barack Obama is some sort of flimsy debutant. Sarah Palin? Certainly. Barack Obama? The world knows that's not true.b,121b,121b,121And I'm not even sure that the latest salvo from Rush Limbaugh towards Powell (over his Obama endorsement) qualifies as racism, although it sure as hell is dehumanizing:b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121I guess he also regrets Reagan and Bush making him a four-star [general] and secretary of state and appointing his son to head the FCC. Yes, let's hear it for transformational figures.b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b,121Essentially, what Limbaugh is saying is: "Dog: don't bite the hand that fed you." At best, it's an assertion that Powell had few talents independently worthy of his office. At worst, it constitutes 3/5ths of a man territory - a landscape I'm not damning Limbaugh as traversing.b,121b,121The scene at McCain/Palin rallies is certainly evidence that Limbaugh and his good-and-evil-or-death reductions are still firmly in play. In Limbaugh's smoke-filled room, The GOP = always right. Always. It's easiest for drug-addled minds like Rush's to argue against straw men and self-erected mental midgets. But Ronald Reagan was not George H. W. Bush and neither were George W. Bush, much less John McCain. Every GOP brother ain't a brother, you know. Normally, I wouldn't stoop to Limbaugh's level, but the man is still a force in the meme game and remains the most listened-to man on the air. His way of thinking is dying, but it still commands power.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121If you have a problem with this characterization of Obama, you should take it up with the McCain campaign.b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b,121 img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/841.gif" alt="" 21b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121If you can't take the heat get out the kitchen. Don't go defending racism and then tell people to blame it on the man.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121If you have a problem with this characterization of Obama, you should take it up with the McCain campaign.b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121 b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121If you can't take the heat get out the kitchen. Don't go defending racism and then tell people to blame it on the man. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121Does Gary's tirade count as "heat?" And I am not defending racism, I challenging your judgment that the McCain campaign is racist.
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