that's true. and the less efficient teams, the more likely a wild team will do better (GSW, for example).
so what can this trend be attributed to? the players coming into the league? the coaches? the front offices not willing to put together the right teams to get the coaches the right pieces to build an efficient team? what is it?
The constant shuffling of rosters is probably a factor.
That too is probably a factor. And we all know that very few GMs know how to shuffle rosters effectively. Jerry West apparently knows how to.
Efficiency comes through a solid plan (good coaching), unselfish players that are willing to carry out that plan, and experience, both from playing a good number of years in the league and from the time spent picking up the nuances of your teammates.
SEE: San Antonio Spurs
I am forced to agree--you've got the best managed organization in the League.
Of course you do play a souless and unwatchable brand of ball.
that's true. and the less efficient teams, the more likely a wild team will do better (GSW, for example).
so what can this trend be attributed to? the players coming into the league? the coaches? the front offices not willing to put together the right teams to get the coaches the right pieces to build an efficient team? what is it?
The constant shuffling of rosters is probably a factor.
That too is probably a factor. And we all know that very few GMs know how to shuffle rosters effectively. Jerry West apparently knows how to.
Efficiency comes through a solid plan (good coaching), unselfish players that are willing to carry out that plan, and experience, both from playing a good number of years in the league and from the time spent picking up the nuances of your teammates.
SEE: San Antonio Spurs
I am forced to agree--you've got the best managed organization in the League.
Of course you do play a souless and unwatchable brand of ball.
Yeah the Spurs have everything but the flash. Not that that is a factor in winning shit, but you know, us casual fan non-ballers need something to be excited about other than 2 off the board every time up the court! haha.
Shifting rosters is definitely an issue. How about superstar mentalities? seems like the more some players are paid, the more they want to be in the spotlight and the less effective they become as team mates. in some instances, not all.
It is hard to play a solid season when your roster shifts every other month though. It's like teams are constantly planning for 3-5 years from now, but they're never ready.
Bring on the 07-08 season. It's gonna be hard to wait an entire summer... At least draft day is upon us!
Might not happen. Last thing I read was Wolves wanted Stoudamire for KG, but the Suns were only willing to part with Marion. Same thing with involving Boston. Wolves wanted Al Jefferson, but Celts weren't willing. Who knows what will happen tonight. Maybe this is all GMs just blowing smoke up each others asses.
I wouldnt trade Stoudamire if i were Phoenix. He's perfect for what their trying to do. Even though Id prefer to see him at the 4 w/ another "traditional" center along side him when they need to play a halfcourt game.
I wouldnt trade Stoudamire if i were Phoenix. He's perfect for what their trying to do. Even though Id prefer to see him at the 4 w/ another "traditional" center along side him when they need to play a halfcourt game.
The only possible rationale for the trade is if you are counting on getting a chip in the next two years by pairing Nash and KG and resigned to a complete rebuild after that.
I wouldnt trade Stoudamire if i were Phoenix. He's perfect for what their trying to do. Even though Id prefer to see him at the 4 w/ another "traditional" center along side him when they need to play a halfcourt game.
The only possible rationale for the trade is if you are counting on getting a chip in the next two years by pairing Nash and KG and resigned to a complete rebuild after that.
Or if there is still something up w/ Amare's knee.
Or if he's got beef in the organization, either w/ Nash or D'Antoni. That doesn't seem likely but even the thought of them dealing Amare seems insane and must hint at something under the surface.
I wouldnt trade Stoudamire if i were Phoenix. He's perfect for what their trying to do. Even though Id prefer to see him at the 4 w/ another "traditional" center along side him when they need to play a halfcourt game.
The only possible rationale for the trade is if you are counting on getting a chip in the next two years by pairing Nash and KG and resigned to a complete rebuild after that.
I agree. Although K.G. on Phoenix doesnt put them past The Spurs or even Dallas who only really has problems w/ GS.
I wouldnt trade Stoudamire if i were Phoenix. He's perfect for what their trying to do. Even though Id prefer to see him at the 4 w/ another "traditional" center along side him when they need to play a halfcourt game.
The only possible rationale for the trade is if you are counting on getting a chip in the next two years by pairing Nash and KG and resigned to a complete rebuild after that.
Or if there is still something up w/ Amare's knee.
Or if he's got beef in the organization, either w/ Nash or D'Antoni. That doesn't seem likely but even the thought of them dealing Amare seems insane and must hint at something under the surface.
I think the knee's good. I don't think Amare's got beef within the organization, but I do think he's got issues with Marion. Or Marion's got issues with him. Amare's a very special player, though. Plus he's still only 24 and I don't think he was back to 100% even by the end of the Sun's playoff run--dude is nowhere near his ceiling. I love watching him play with Nash and I would hate to see him trapped in the basketball purgatory that is Atlanta. According to Suns brass, they've never even had conversations w/ Atlanta w/r/t Amare, anyway.
I wouldnt trade Stoudamire if i were Phoenix. He's perfect for what their trying to do. Even though Id prefer to see him at the 4 w/ another "traditional" center along side him when they need to play a halfcourt game.
The only possible rationale for the trade is if you are counting on getting a chip in the next two years by pairing Nash and KG and resigned to a complete rebuild after that.
I agree. Although K.G. on Phoenix doesnt put them past The Spurs or even Dallas who only really has problems w/ GS.
Agreed. And, like I said above, I think Amare is very special and would hate to see him dealt to Atlanta.
However, barring opt-outs, I think KG, Nash and Marion all have two years left on their current contracts. After that, $50M+ comes off the books and you've got a tremendous amount of cap space--I can see where the Suns organization might be coming from on that one, but I hope they don't do it.
If Amare and Marion can't co-exist, you deal Marion. End of story.
I'd put Amare #3 on my list of "untradables" behind Duncan and LeBron.
Agreed--problem is, I think that when offered Marion, every GM in the league is like "But what about Amare?"
"We don't have a Steve Nash to make this dude Marion good."
I think Marion would be just as productive in the right system w/ out Nash. Of course if he was in Milwaukee or Memphis it would be a bad look. But place him in the east say Orlando at the 3 spot along side Howard. I likey.
If Amare and Marion can't co-exist, you deal Marion. End of story.
I'd put Amare #3 on my list of "untradables" behind Duncan and LeBron.
Agreed--problem is, I think that when offered Marion, every GM in the league is like "But what about Amare?"
"We don't have a Steve Nash to make this dude Marion good."
I think Marion would be just as productive in the right system w/ out Nash. Of course if he was in Milwaukee or Memphis it would be a bad look. But place him in the east say Orlando at the 3 spot along side Howard. I likey.
You're probably right. He was solid before, but more for his defense and rebounding. I'm hard on critical of ( ) Marion. His shot disgusts me. Obviously, he's a top player.
If Amare and Marion can't co-exist, you deal Marion. End of story.
I'd put Amare #3 on my list of "untradables" behind Duncan and LeBron.
Agreed--problem is, I think that when offered Marion, every GM in the league is like "But what about Amare?"
"We don't have a Steve Nash to make this dude Marion good."
I think Marion would be just as productive in the right system w/ out Nash.
Probably--Marion's problem is that he seems to think that he'd be a 30 a night guy if he didn't have to play alongside Amare (per a recent ESPN interview).
I don't recall that being the case two seasons ago when Amare was out, though.
in that book "Seven Seconds or Less", they talk about Marion being asshurt a lot. D'Antoni has to have a lot of pep talks w/ the dude, but as Marion said himself in a Dime interview- his numbers are crazy for a dude his size who has no set plays run for him. (the baseline alley-oop is not a set play) I got to look it up real quick, but Marion was putting up significantly better numbers w/o Amare (microfracture season), but what he fails to realize is that the next option the Suns had on offense in the frontcourt was Diaw at the time, which would naturally boost his (Marion's) numbers, since Diaw is not that good.
in that book "Seven Seconds or Less", they talk about Marion being asshurt a lot. D'Antoni has to have a lot of pep talks w/ the dude, but as Marion said himself in a Dime interview- his numbers are crazy for a dude his size who has no set plays run for him. (the baseline alley-oop is not a set play) I got to look it up real quick, but Marion was putting up significantly better numbers w/o Amare (microfracture season), but what he fails to realize is that the next option the Suns had on offense in the frontcourt was Diaw at the time, which would naturally boost his (Marion's) numbers, since Diaw is not that good.
I think it was a difference of ~4 pts/~2 rbnds per night. Not the type of numbers that would catapult him to the superstar status he seems to think he deserves. He's a unique player, and I'd say definitely a top 20 guy. But a trade is not going to make the public totally reassess him and place him in the same rarified territory as Kobe or Lebron or any of the League's true stars. He'll just get to be the inarguably best player on a bad team.
in that book "Seven Seconds or Less", they talk about Marion being asshurt a lot. D'Antoni has to have a lot of pep talks w/ the dude, but as Marion said himself in a Dime interview- his numbers are crazy for a dude his size who has no set plays run for him. (the baseline alley-oop is not a set play) I got to look it up real quick, but Marion was putting up significantly better numbers w/o Amare (microfracture season), but what he fails to realize is that the next option the Suns had on offense in the frontcourt was Diaw at the time, which would naturally boost his (Marion's) numbers, since Diaw is not that good.
I think it was a difference of ~4 pts/~2 rbnds per night. Not the type of numbers that would catapult him to the superstar status he seems to think he deserves. He's a unique player, and I'd say definitely a top 20 guy. But a trade is not going to make the public totally reassess him and place him in the same rarified territory as Kobe or Lebron or any of the League's true stars. He'll just get to be the inarguably best player on a bad team.
How is that book, by the way?
I guess it's personal bias revealed- I don't think there's another player in the L that can replace Marion. Without the ball, dude is absolutely key to their offense, he plays pretty smart. And his rebounding numbers are ridiculous for a dude that stands 6'7" (he's listed at 6'8", but standing from next to him... dude's not that much taller than I am. Given the number of players in the L that come across like they mistake arrogance for confidence in terms of their percieved superstar status though, Marion saying stuff like that doesn't bother me as much as say, Ricky Davis saying stuff like that. I think that "unique" is an apt way to describe him.
The book was really entertaining, I've given it as a gift to both Suns and non-Suns fans, and heard nothing back but positive reviews. The best part is that it doesn't stray into Suns nut-swinging when it would be inappropriate to do so. It offers plenty of criticism of both on and off-court activities of all the subjects. Personally, the person in the book I found myself pulling for most was Mike D'Antoni, especially during the season they were covering. I'm surprised the guy didn't have a heart attack w/ the stress level.
in that book "Seven Seconds or Less", they talk about Marion being asshurt a lot. D'Antoni has to have a lot of pep talks w/ the dude, but as Marion said himself in a Dime interview- his numbers are crazy for a dude his size who has no set plays run for him. (the baseline alley-oop is not a set play) I got to look it up real quick, but Marion was putting up significantly better numbers w/o Amare (microfracture season), but what he fails to realize is that the next option the Suns had on offense in the frontcourt was Diaw at the time, which would naturally boost his (Marion's) numbers, since Diaw is not that good.
I think it was a difference of ~4 pts/~2 rbnds per night. Not the type of numbers that would catapult him to the superstar status he seems to think he deserves. He's a unique player, and I'd say definitely a top 20 guy. But a trade is not going to make the public totally reassess him and place him in the same rarified territory as Kobe or Lebron or any of the League's true stars. He'll just get to be the inarguably best player on a bad team.
How is that book, by the way?
I guess it's personal bias revealed- I don't think there's another player in the L that can replace Marion. Without the ball, dude is absolutely key to their offense, he plays pretty smart. And his rebounding numbers are ridiculous for a dude that stands 6'7" (he's listed at 6'8", but standing from next to him... dude's not
that much taller than I am. Given the number of players in the L that come across like they mistake arrogance for confidence in terms of their percieved superstar status though, Marion saying stuff like that doesn't bother me as much as say, Ricky Davis saying stuff like that. I think that "unique" is an apt way to describe him.
All that is true, and in no way do I mean to diminish what Marion does. I'm just saying that I don't think the dude is slept on by the cognoscenti--I know you've read as many articles as I have where the hook is how the dude doesn't get his props, but how he's actually incredible for his versatility and for what he does being undersized and having a very limited number of plays run for him. How much of that type of public discussion does there need to be before the dude stops clinging to this perception that he's under-rated? He's a perennial All-star. Yes, most people think Amare's better/less replacable. Well, that's life--I happen to also think that's the case. A trade will neither increase the respect he gets from people who really follow the L--he's already got that--nor will it transform him into a star in the eyes of the general public (he's just not that type of player).
Comments
I am forced to agree--you've got the best managed organization in the League.
Of course you do play a souless and unwatchable brand of ball.
Yeah the Spurs have everything but the flash. Not that that is a factor in winning shit, but you know, us casual fan non-ballers need something to be excited about other than 2 off the board every time up the court! haha.
Shifting rosters is definitely an issue. How about superstar mentalities? seems like the more some players are paid, the more they want to be in the spotlight and the less effective they become as team mates. in some instances, not all.
It is hard to play a solid season when your roster shifts every other month though. It's like teams are constantly planning for 3-5 years from now, but they're never ready.
Bring on the 07-08 season. It's gonna be hard to wait an entire summer... At least draft day is upon us!
I'll take the well done steak.
nooooooooooooooooo
Dudes whose teams get chumped out of the first round don't get to talk like that.
Might not happen. Last thing I read was Wolves wanted Stoudamire for KG, but the Suns were only willing to part with Marion. Same thing with involving Boston. Wolves wanted Al Jefferson, but Celts weren't willing. Who knows what will happen tonight. Maybe this is all GMs just blowing smoke up each others asses.
Crazy
The only possible rationale for the trade is if you are counting on getting a chip in the next two years by pairing Nash and KG and resigned to a complete rebuild after that.
Dudes who don't ride for teams don't get to tell dudes who do shit about shit.
Ridiculous and it won't happen.
You're gonna give up the PG you've been grooming for 3 years up to draft a younger PG? Or even worse, a softer Dirk? (Yi)
Not buyin it.
Or if there is still something up w/ Amare's knee.
Or if he's got beef in the organization, either w/ Nash or D'Antoni. That doesn't seem likely but even the thought of them dealing Amare seems insane and must hint at something under the surface.
I agree. Although K.G. on Phoenix doesnt put them past The Spurs or even Dallas who only really has problems w/ GS.
I think the knee's good. I don't think Amare's got beef within the organization, but I do think he's got issues with Marion. Or Marion's got issues with him. Amare's a very special player, though. Plus he's still only 24 and I don't think he was back to 100% even by the end of the Sun's playoff run--dude is nowhere near his ceiling. I love watching him play with Nash and I would hate to see him trapped in the basketball purgatory that is Atlanta. According to Suns brass, they've never even had conversations w/ Atlanta w/r/t Amare, anyway.
Agreed. And, like I said above, I think Amare is very special and would hate to see him dealt to Atlanta.
However, barring opt-outs, I think KG, Nash and Marion all have two years left on their current contracts. After that, $50M+ comes off the books and you've got a tremendous amount of cap space--I can see where the Suns organization might be coming from on that one, but I hope they don't do it.
Playing for Jerry Sloan?
I'd put Amare #3 on my list of "untradables" behind Duncan and LeBron.
Agreed--problem is, I think that when offered Marion, every GM in the league is like "But what about Amare?"
"We don't have a Steve Nash to make this dude Marion good."
I think Marion would be just as productive in the right system w/ out Nash.
Of course if he was in Milwaukee or Memphis it would be a bad look. But place him in the east say Orlando at the 3 spot along side Howard. I likey.
You're probably right. He was solid before, but more for his defense and rebounding. I'm
hard oncritical of (Probably--Marion's problem is that he seems to think that he'd be a 30 a night guy if he didn't have to play alongside Amare (per a recent ESPN interview).
I don't recall that being the case two seasons ago when Amare was out, though.
I got to look it up real quick, but Marion was putting up significantly better numbers w/o Amare (microfracture season), but what he fails to realize is that the next option the Suns had on offense in the frontcourt was Diaw at the time, which would naturally boost his (Marion's) numbers, since Diaw is not that good.
I think it was a difference of ~4 pts/~2 rbnds per night. Not the type of numbers that would catapult him to the superstar status he seems to think he deserves. He's a unique player, and I'd say definitely a top 20 guy. But a trade is not going to make the public totally reassess him and place him in the same rarified territory as Kobe or Lebron or any of the League's true stars. He'll just get to be the inarguably best player on a bad team.
How is that book, by the way?
The book was really entertaining, I've given it as a gift to both Suns and non-Suns fans, and heard nothing back but positive reviews. The best part is that it doesn't stray into Suns nut-swinging when it would be inappropriate to do so. It offers plenty of criticism of both on and off-court activities of all the subjects.
Personally, the person in the book I found myself pulling for most was Mike D'Antoni, especially during the season they were covering. I'm surprised the guy didn't have a heart attack w/ the stress level.
And If Jefferson joins the Blazers what would the starting 5 look like?
Oden - Center
Aldridge - Power Forward
Jefferson - Small Forward
Roy - Shooting Guard
Jack - Point Guard
All that is true, and in no way do I mean to diminish what Marion does. I'm just saying that I don't think the dude is slept on by the cognoscenti--I know you've read as many articles as I have where the hook is how the dude doesn't get his props, but how he's actually incredible for his versatility and for what he does being undersized and having a very limited number of plays run for him. How much of that type of public discussion does there need to be before the dude stops clinging to this perception that he's under-rated? He's a perennial All-star. Yes, most people think Amare's better/less replacable. Well, that's life--I happen to also think that's the case. A trade will neither increase the respect he gets from people who really follow the L--he's already got that--nor will it transform him into a star in the eyes of the general public (he's just not that type of player).