one last thing i saw on another board which seems to make sense. The last scene is tony's point of view.. last thing he sees is meadow walk in, and the sudden black is him getting popped.
That's how I saw it too. The sudden cut to black, mid-lyric in the song. I also thought my tv was fucked up for a sec, but then gave it some thought whle the credits were rolling and that's how I see it ending.
Except that, as was mentioned above, the last shot wasn't Tony's POV. All you saw was Meadow running towards the diner, the Black kids walk in, Tony looks up (the last shot is of Tony's face, not his POV).... and black.
I really do think it was designed to put the viewer in Tony's mind, which has been the basic premise of the show all along - to explore the mind of Tony Soprano. The mysterious man in the bathroom could've been an agent, could've been a stranger, could've been a hitter... could've been anyone. I will agonize over the parking scenario and the bathroom guy... but the bottom line is that it was meant to be guessed at, and I think if they were going to whack Tony they would've done it.
For instance, with Phil, I felt like that was saying "OK, you want a big hit, here is a motherfucking hit." with the splattered head and the babies smiling and the kid barfing and everything. Just like the previous ep with the motorcylcist getting run over by a truck. Gratuitous violence for the sake of. Maybe the writers were getting back at those people who get heated when there's no bloodshed and call those eps boring.
To that end, everyone on Hot 97 this morning was saying it was a terrible ep. They wanted massive bloodshed and (not surprisingly) a Scarface-like ending. Damn simpletons.
one last thing i saw on another board which seems to make sense. The last scene is tony's point of view.. last thing he sees is meadow walk in, and the sudden black is him getting popped.
That's how I saw it too.
no way. if tony was gonna die, we would have seen it. check odub's post. he did a good job of summing up that last scene. the only thing i would add is that "the family dinner" was symbolic of the whole series. no matter what type of drama goes on, things return to status quo and they all come together. aj is back to being a lazy brat, carmela is still the loyal mob boss' wife, meadow the achiever, and tony is tony.
the shit at the end was a final chance to see things through tony's eyes. those two guys in the restaurant were nobodys, its just that tony has to look up everytime someone walks in the room or gives him a weird look. remember also that people in nj know him by face. those weird stares should follow him everywhere he goes. the dude walking to the bathroom was a tribute to the godfather.
To that end, everyone on Hot 97 this morning was saying it was a terrible ep. They wanted massive bloodshed and (not surprisingly) a Scarface-like ending. Damn simpletons.
How typical of the hip hop crowd.
I do think they chose the best possible way to end it - what could possibly stir up more noise than an open ending like that? This keeps the whole spirit of the show alive. The Sopranos is not soemthing that can "end" after 6 seasons. It's like the Sopranos goes on, we just don't get to watch anymore. I thought that was the best way they could have done it, really.
I have a problem with the abruptness of last night's ending -- cutting away from Tony and suddenly fading to black with the silence. If Chase' point is to say that everything goes on like it always has with the Sopranos, it could have been done differently... compare the ending to how last season ended with everyone at Tony's house over Christmas dinner, and the main complaint everyone had with that episode is that "nothing much happened."
Same holds true for last night's episode -- Tony's still the same, ever wary of the dangers in front of him, but still the family man. If the basic message of last night's finale and the last season's finale is the same -- why not show Tony eating with his family with the slow fade out on a long shot maybe? Chase must have known the sudden fade to black instead of the traditional fade out was going to piss everyone off.
To that end, everyone on Hot 97 this morning was saying it was a terrible ep. They wanted massive bloodshed and (not surprisingly) a Scarface-like ending. Damn simpletons.
How typical of the hip hop crowd.
Seriously, I'm not surprised but it's disheartening to know that the collective intelligence . I mean - you had someone shot in the head AND then had their head crushed. WTF - people were expecting two guys with black rifles Bonnie and Clyding up Tony? Fuck outta here. This isn't a Michael Bay film, batches!
I forgot to add - even though it was just ever-so-slightly heavy-handed, the scene with Junior was pretty great too. "You and my dad used to run North Jersey." "We did?" "Yeah." "That's nice." In the end, there's no blaze of glory for these guys - I mean, you either day in a tracksuit (or killed by someone wearing a tracksuit), get cancer, or go out doddering.
one last thing i saw on another board which seems to make sense. The last scene is tony's point of view.. last thing he sees is meadow walk in, and the sudden black is him getting popped.
That's how I saw it too.
no way. if tony was gonna die, we would have seen it.
Yeah - look, I'm don't want to bash people on something as subjective as trying to interpret signs and symbols in a tv show but I have this crazy pet peeve about how viewers try to auger these conclusions when there's no actual evidence within the text itself to arrive at such a reading.
In this case, there's nothing, at all, to suggest that Tony gets killed. The only reason we'd even go there is because people wanted and expected him to get killed and frankly, this goes to Chase's brilliance: he KNEW people were expecting it and he built that whole final scene around that expectation. And right when you think shit is about to go down, he pulls the plug and leaves you without a clear conclusion. I went back and watched it again. Loved how they do it - the look on Tony's face said everything you needed to know.
Chase must have known the sudden fade to black instead of the traditional fade out was going to piss everyone off.
Nah that wouldn't have lent itself to interpretation as much as how they ended up doing it. This ending was designed to leave the fan specualting for a while. With a simple fade out and no possible threat of something happening, everybody would be pissed. This ending allows for every fan to come to their own conclusion about what happens and that's the beauty of it, that's what will keep people talking about it for some time. The more I think about it, the more appropriate it seems.
Chase must have known the sudden fade to black instead of the traditional fade out was going to piss everyone off.
Nah that wouldn't have lent itself to interpretation as much as how they ended up doing it. This ending was designed to leave the fan specualting for a while. With a simple fade out and no possible threat of something happening, everybody would be pissed. This ending allows for every fan to come to their own conclusion about what happens and that's the beauty of it, that's what will keep people talking about it for some time. The more I think about it, the more appropriate it seems.
I've been reading comments left on other boards, namely Entertainment Weekly, and good god, there's a world of asshurtness out there. You'd think Chase had spit in their faces, then pissed on their sheets.
Yeah - look, I'm don't want to bash people on something as subjective as trying to interpret signs and symbols in a tv show but I have this crazy pet peeve about how viewers try to auger these conclusions when there's no actual evidence within the text itself to arrive at such a reading.
In this case, there's nothing, at all, to suggest that Tony gets killed. The only reason we'd even go there is because people wanted and expected him to get killed and frankly, this goes to Chase's brilliance: he KNEW people were expecting it and he built that whole final scene around that expectation. And right when you think shit is about to go down, he pulls the plug and leaves you without a clear conclusion. I went back and watched it again. Loved how they do it - the look on Tony's face said everything you needed to know.
Thank you O-Dub. I completely agree with this.
This isn't directed at anyone here, but dammit, I want someone who is in the "Tony died" camp to give me one plausible storyline that the episode hinted at whereby he would be killed. As in, WHO THE FUCK DID IT THEN???? There isn't one. The mob drama (at least from sources external to the Soprano family) was wrapped up pretty succinctly after the sit-down w/ Butchie and Albie. Dude's not dead. That last scene was an opportunity to fuck w/ the viewers and throw in a final mob movie nod. Also, how perfect to end it at a diner. I only lived in New Jersey for two years, but my biggest memory is: DINERS. Shit's NJ to the core, just like the show itself.
I'll probably start a complete rewatch in a few months. It's been a long time now since I've watched seasons 1, 2 and 3.
I've been reading comments left on other boards, namely Entertainment Weekly, and good god, there's a world of asshurtness out there. You'd think Chase had spit in their faces, then pissed on their sheets.
The line to cancel HBO starts here. What a ridiculously disappointing end lacking in creativity to The Sopranos saga. But if you're one of those who found it perversely interesting, then don't bother to read on. Even if David Chase, who wrote and directed the final episode, was demonstrating the existential and endless loop of Tony's life or the moments before the hit that causes his death, it still robbed the audience of visual closure. chase1.jpgAnd if it were done to segue into a motion picture sequel, then that kind of crass commercialism shouldn't be tolerated. (See my Does Chase Have 'Sopranos' Movie Idea?) There's even buzz that the real ending will only be available on the series' final DVD. Either way, it was terrible. Apparently, my extreme reaction was typical of many series' fans: they crashed HBO's website for a time tonight trying to register their outrage. HBO could suffer a wave of cancellations as a result. (Already, the pay channel's replacement series like John from Cincinnati are getting panned.) Chase clearly didn't give a damn about his fans. Instead, he crapped in their faces. This is why America hates Hollywood. Unlike some network series that end abruptly because broadcasters pull the plug without warning, The Sopranos has been slated for years to go off the air tonight. But instead of carefully crafted, this finale looked like it had been concocted in a day or two. (Some of the scenes were cut so abruptly, they caused whiplash.) Let's not forget that, in later years, Chase had to be dragged kicking and screaming back to the computer to write more episodes against his will even though The Sopranos made him rich beyond what's reasonable. Especially now that it's in syndication. (See my A&E's Profanity-Free Tony Soprano A Hit.) Chase needed to exert himself to a concoct an artful denouement. But he took the lazy way out. The show we all loved deserved a decent burial. Instead, it went into a black hole. Already, some TV critics like The New York Times' Alessandra Stanley are claiming that Chase fulfilled expectations by defying expectations. And the blogosphere is busy dissecting every final moment, with some wanting to see profundity in the screen going black because of Tony's conversation with Bobby -- you wouldn't even know it had happened: everything would just go black. Or making a game of the foreshadowing moments -- the jukebox song below "Don't Stop Believing" was "Any Way You Want It". Phooey. The Nielsen reality is that people don't watch TV closely anymore, much less remember what went on from week to week, to give such a subtle ending its proper due. Besides, The Sopranos was not a show that went on inside your head. It was a richly visual series whose most memorable moments were graphic and in your face and damn proud of it. Like Tony, it was defiant. This was whimpering. If you're angry at wasting an hour, complain with your wallets.
Annoyed as I am by people whining about the closer (not here but elsewhere), I think it's always interesting to see what people want out of a show (vs. what the show wants for itself). And it's interesting to measure this against other momentous show closures and when you do that, I think it becomes much easier to appreciate #1, it's not easy to close an entire series and #2, it's not easy to do it without the pink bow treatment or some gimmick.
A few folks think that Chase's sudden blackout was a gimmick...and it sort of was in terms of a deliberate attempt to fuck with viewer anticipation but you want a gimmick? "St. Elsewhere" was a gimmick. "Newhart" was a gimmick. Both of them brilliant in their own way but "Sopranos" wasn't a gimmick by those standards.
Personally, I always thought "Cheers" closed in a way that most fans could go away satisfied with. It was incredibly bittersweet and it provided "closure" of a sorts (at least in terms of Sam and Diane's relationship) and there was enough maudlin elements to satisfy those who wanted something more schmaltzy.
With the "Sopranos," I wouldn't have been mad had their been more of an attempt at "closure" - hey, I like narrative bow ties too - but really, it's never been that kind of show and I find it confusing why any actual fan of the show would expect to see some meta-arc.
Like...you'd have to be a moron to expect "The Wire" to ever end with "closure." Things change, people die, etc. but "The Wire," even more so than "The Sopranos" is about the storytelling, not about the ending. People should be happy that the former has been so consistent over the years (albeit not always perfect). The fact that the ending doesn't do everything viewers want it to is the viewers' problem. Not the show's.
BTW, my favorite posting from the EW site: "The cat was Adrianna!"
one last thing i saw on another board which seems to make sense. The last scene is tony's point of view.. last thing he sees is meadow walk in, and the sudden black is him getting popped.
That's how I saw it too. The sudden cut to black, mid-lyric in the song. I also thought my tv was fucked up for a sec, but then gave it some thought whle the credits were rolling and that's how I see it ending.
Except that, as was mentioned above, the last shot wasn't Tony's POV. All you saw was Meadow running towards the diner, the Black kids walk in, Tony looks up (the last shot is of Tony's face, not his POV).... and black.
right, well the theory goes like this (from NY Times' The Lede Blog):
watch the last scene again (I have several times). everytime someone comes into the door you hear the bell then the camera view shows tony, then switches to his point of view to show who is entering the restaurant. this pattern happens 3 times (first with curly haired lady who looks like janice, then trucker dude with USA cap, then carmela, then hitman followed by AJ, then meadow)
When meadow enters the restaurant you hear the bell, see tony and then it is black. The view from his perspective is black - he is dead.
not saying I buy this theory, just showing how it's not inconsistent with the camera shots I guess.
one last thing i saw on another board which seems to make sense. The last scene is tony's point of view.. last thing he sees is meadow walk in, and the sudden black is him getting popped.
That's how I saw it too. The sudden cut to black, mid-lyric in the song. I also thought my tv was fucked up for a sec, but then gave it some thought whle the credits were rolling and that's how I see it ending.
Except that, as was mentioned above, the last shot wasn't Tony's POV. All you saw was Meadow running towards the diner, the Black kids walk in, Tony looks up (the last shot is of Tony's face, not his POV).... and black.
right, well the theory goes like this (from NY Times' The Lede Blog):
watch the last scene again (I have several times). everytime someone comes into the door you hear the bell then the camera view shows tony, then switches to his point of view to show who is entering the restaurant. this pattern happens 3 times (first with curly haired lady who looks like janice, then trucker dude with USA cap, then carmela, then hitman followed by AJ, then meadow)
When meadow enters the restaurant you hear the bell, see tony and then it is black. The view from his perspective is black - he is dead.
not saying I buy this theory, just showing how it's not inconsistent with the camera shots I guess.
not gonna comment on the ending, but this episode, as any Sopranos episode, had some great lines/elements.
- "The state can crush the individual." "New Jersey?"
- The terrorism thing was always interesting, albeit never really fleshed out. When Tony asks Harris at the aiport if the whole terrorism thing is overblown, he demurs. Like, "yeah maybe, but it's my job." Also when he describes the false intel as a possible attempt by the terrorists to test their response and Tony's like "WTF?" These are the guys protecting this country? It's a startling realization that I think a lot of people can relate to.
- Bobby's son with the little point at AJ when he's spouting the anti-American pop culture shit. A great half-second shot. That kid always idolized AJ, no matter how much of a douche he was/is.
- Bobby's niece: Fine. Where the fuck did she come from?
- The tour bus going through Little Italy talmbout "This neighborhood used to cover tens of square blocks and is now reduced to a pathetic row of shops and restaurants..." Sad commentary.
- Agent Harris' personal life: Felt a little weak to try to stick this in at the very end of the series, but interesting nonetheless. Arguing on the phone with his wife, apparently cheating on her with the other agent (who's pissed that Harris tells the intel he gets out of her to Tony).
- Agent Harris "rooting" for Tony when he hears that Phil was popped was cheezy to an extreme.
my wife hated the ending last night, but loved it this morning
how else could they properly end it
as far as who would have killed tony, no shortage of suspects, maybe patsy getting revenge for spoons, russians, etc (carlo ?)
more likely he would be arrested (carlo?)
the strange foreshadowing at the end of the previous episode with the flashback of fishing with bobby b, talking about not hearing/knowing that death was coming
what i want to know is, when did he order onion rings for the table ?!?
one last thing i saw on another board which seems to make sense. The last scene is tony's point of view.. last thing he sees is meadow walk in, and the sudden black is him getting popped.
That's how I saw it too. The sudden cut to black, mid-lyric in the song. I also thought my tv was fucked up for a sec, but then gave it some thought whle the credits were rolling and that's how I see it ending.
Except that, as was mentioned above, the last shot wasn't Tony's POV. All you saw was Meadow running towards the diner, the Black kids walk in, Tony looks up (the last shot is of Tony's face, not his POV).... and black.
right, well the theory goes like this (from NY Times' The Lede Blog):
watch the last scene again (I have several times). everytime someone comes into the door you hear the bell then the camera view shows tony, then switches to his point of view to show who is entering the restaurant. this pattern happens 3 times (first with curly haired lady who looks like janice, then trucker dude with USA cap, then carmela, then hitman followed by AJ, then meadow)
When meadow enters the restaurant you hear the bell, see tony and then it is black. The view from his perspective is black - he is dead.
not saying I buy this theory, just showing how it's not inconsistent with the camera shots I guess.
Hmmm. Now I am torn.
Naw JP, don't be.
These kinds of reads (from the NYT site) are what tire me when it comes to stuff like literary criticism. You can practically dissect any scene and create a vaguely plausible theory. The truth is, people want to see Tony get deaded so badly, they're willing to force the read to fit their conclusion.
The thing is: it's possible Tony dies 2 seconds after the end. It's possible the entire diner gets hit by a comet. Or not. But people who want to read the way the show ended as signifying Tony's death are purely reaching. There's absolutely nothing that makes you believe in this EXCEPT for the desire to believe in it.
And just to add this, considering the number of people who've been killed on the show, it's never been from ANY character's POV. It's always from the audience's POV. Suddenly, the show is going to switch things for the sake of Tony? C'mon. I wish folks would be rational for half a second.
before i started reading the comments on the board i was a little pissed off at the ending. i did want closure. though thinking if tony died in the restaurant (visually) i dont think id be happier knowing. i think the great part is not knowing for once. phil died. albie/butchie shaking hands with tony. the constant threat of someone coming for you whether its feds or a hit. so after all that im quite happy with the end.
what do yall think of tony and juniors meeting? like when tony realized junior had no idea what he was a part of or what he helped to create.
as far as who would have killed tony, no shortage of suspects, maybe patsy getting revenge for spoons, russians, etc (carlo ?)
Is their a reason I'm forgetting why the whole sitdown couldnt have been a power play by butchie/new york? Take out two bosses, ascend, and "do business with whats left?"
Russians again? I think I saw three news stories today that mentioned them too, wow....
before i started reading the comments on the board i was a little pissed off at the ending. i did want closure. though thinking if tony died in the restaurant (visually) i dont think id be happier knowing. i think the great part is not knowing for once. phil died. albie/butchie shaking hands with tony. the constant threat of someone coming for you whether its feds or a hit. so after all that im quite happy with the end.
what do yall think of tony and juniors meeting? like when tony realized junior had no idea what he was a part of or what he helped to create.
That meeting was pretty good (as I wrote above): in the end, Junior used to run shit like Tony is now but look where it's gotten him? There's no glory at the end of the road unless you count getting shot in the head and having your head crushed "glory."
Yeah - I think you and I are on the same cosignwavelength.
I also thought the way Harris got brought back in was just weird but then again, the show's always had these weird little tangents.
Just to add: Paulie's "sympathy" for Bobby's niece was helllllla creepy.
Also - the walk from Little Italy by the Brooklyn lieutenant that suddenly finds him in Chinatown without realizing it. Loved the simplicity of that moment.
not gonna comment on the ending, but this episode, as any Sopranos episode, had some great lines/elements.
- "The state can crush the individual." "New Jersey?"
- The terrorism thing was always interesting, albeit never really fleshed out. When Tony asks Harris at the aiport if the whole terrorism thing is overblown, he demurs. Like, "yeah maybe, but it's my job." Also when he describes the false intel as a possible attempt by the terrorists to test their response and Tony's like "WTF?" These are the guys protecting this country? It's a startling realization that I think a lot of people can relate to.
- Bobby's son with the little point at AJ when he's spouting the anti-American pop culture shit. A great half-second shot. That kid always idolized AJ, no matter how much of a douche he was/is.
- Bobby's niece: Fine. Where the fuck did she come from?
- The tour bus going through Little Italy talmbout "This neighborhood used to cover tens of square blocks and is now reduced to a pathetic row of shops and restaurants..." Sad commentary.
- Agent Harris' personal life: Felt a little weak to try to stick this in at the very end of the series, but interesting nonetheless. Arguing on the phone with his wife, apparently cheating on her with the other agent (who's pissed that Harris tells the intel he gets out of her to Tony).
- Agent Harris "rooting" for Tony when he hears that Phil was popped was cheezy to an extreme.
Also - the walk from Little Italy by the Brooklyn lieutenant that suddenly finds him in Chinatown without realizing it. Loved the simplicity of that moment.
yeah that was great. sorta tied into the tour bus thing: like, this isn't your father's Little Italy, pal. he looked totally lost out there.
Comments
Except that, as was mentioned above, the last shot wasn't Tony's POV. All you saw was Meadow running towards the diner, the Black kids walk in, Tony looks up (the last shot is of Tony's face, not his POV).... and black.
I really do think it was designed to put the viewer in Tony's mind, which has been the basic premise of the show all along - to explore the mind of Tony Soprano. The mysterious man in the bathroom could've been an agent, could've been a stranger, could've been a hitter... could've been anyone. I will agonize over the parking scenario and the bathroom guy... but the bottom line is that it was meant to be guessed at, and I think if they were going to whack Tony they would've done it.
For instance, with Phil, I felt like that was saying "OK, you want a big hit, here is a motherfucking hit." with the splattered head and the babies smiling and the kid barfing and everything. Just like the previous ep with the motorcylcist getting run over by a truck. Gratuitous violence for the sake of. Maybe the writers were getting back at those people who get heated when there's no bloodshed and call those eps boring.
To that end, everyone on Hot 97 this morning was saying it was a terrible ep. They wanted massive bloodshed and (not surprisingly) a Scarface-like ending. Damn simpletons.
no way. if tony was gonna die, we would have seen it. check odub's post. he did a good job of summing up that last scene. the only thing i would add is that "the family dinner" was symbolic of the whole series. no matter what type of drama goes on, things return to status quo and they all come together. aj is back to being a lazy brat, carmela is still the loyal mob boss' wife, meadow the achiever, and tony is tony.
the shit at the end was a final chance to see things through tony's eyes. those two guys in the restaurant were nobodys, its just that tony has to look up everytime someone walks in the room or gives him a weird look. remember also that people in nj know him by face. those weird stares should follow him everywhere he goes. the dude walking to the bathroom was a tribute to the godfather.
great last episode.
How typical of the hip hop crowd.
I do think they chose the best possible way to end it - what could possibly stir up more noise than an open ending like that? This keeps the whole spirit of the show alive. The Sopranos is not soemthing that can "end" after 6 seasons. It's like the Sopranos goes on, we just don't get to watch anymore. I thought that was the best way they could have done it, really.
Same holds true for last night's episode -- Tony's still the same, ever wary of the dangers in front of him, but still the family man. If the basic message of last night's finale and the last season's finale is the same -- why not show Tony eating with his family with the slow fade out on a long shot maybe? Chase must have known the sudden fade to black instead of the traditional fade out was going to piss everyone off.
Seriously, I'm not surprised but it's disheartening to know that the collective intelligence . I mean - you had someone shot in the head AND then had their head crushed. WTF - people were expecting two guys with black rifles Bonnie and Clyding up Tony? Fuck outta here. This isn't a Michael Bay film, batches!
I forgot to add - even though it was just ever-so-slightly heavy-handed, the scene with Junior was pretty great too. "You and my dad used to run North Jersey." "We did?" "Yeah." "That's nice." In the end, there's no blaze of glory for these guys - I mean, you either day in a tracksuit (or killed by someone wearing a tracksuit), get cancer, or go out doddering.
To quote Patsy: "It won't be cinematic."
Yeah - look, I'm don't want to bash people on something as subjective as trying to interpret signs and symbols in a tv show but I have this crazy pet peeve about how viewers try to auger these conclusions when there's no actual evidence within the text itself to arrive at such a reading.
In this case, there's nothing, at all, to suggest that Tony gets killed. The only reason we'd even go there is because people wanted and expected him to get killed and frankly, this goes to Chase's brilliance: he KNEW people were expecting it and he built that whole final scene around that expectation. And right when you think shit is about to go down, he pulls the plug and leaves you without a clear conclusion. I went back and watched it again. Loved how they do it - the look on Tony's face said everything you needed to know.
And plus...Journey man. Journey.
Nah that wouldn't have lent itself to interpretation as much as how they ended up doing it. This ending was designed to leave the fan specualting for a while. With a simple fade out and no possible threat of something happening, everybody would be pissed. This ending allows for every fan to come to their own conclusion about what happens and that's the beauty of it, that's what will keep people talking about it for some time. The more I think about it, the more appropriate it seems.
I've been reading comments left on other boards, namely Entertainment Weekly, and good god, there's a world of asshurtness out there. You'd think Chase had spit in their faces, then pissed on their sheets.
Thank you O-Dub. I completely agree with this.
This isn't directed at anyone here, but dammit, I want someone who is in the "Tony died" camp to give me one plausible storyline that the episode hinted at whereby he would be killed. As in, WHO THE FUCK DID IT THEN???? There isn't one. The mob drama (at least from sources external to the Soprano family) was wrapped up pretty succinctly after the sit-down w/ Butchie and Albie. Dude's not dead. That last scene was an opportunity to fuck w/ the viewers and throw in a final mob movie nod. Also, how perfect to end it at a diner. I only lived in New Jersey for two years, but my biggest memory is: DINERS. Shit's NJ to the core, just like the show itself.
I'll probably start a complete rewatch in a few months. It's been a long time now since I've watched seasons 1, 2 and 3.
link
A few folks think that Chase's sudden blackout was a gimmick...and it sort of was in terms of a deliberate attempt to fuck with viewer anticipation but you want a gimmick? "St. Elsewhere" was a gimmick. "Newhart" was a gimmick. Both of them brilliant in their own way but "Sopranos" wasn't a gimmick by those standards.
Personally, I always thought "Cheers" closed in a way that most fans could go away satisfied with. It was incredibly bittersweet and it provided "closure" of a sorts (at least in terms of Sam and Diane's relationship) and there was enough maudlin elements to satisfy those who wanted something more schmaltzy.
With the "Sopranos," I wouldn't have been mad had their been more of an attempt at "closure" - hey, I like narrative bow ties too - but really, it's never been that kind of show and I find it confusing why any actual fan of the show would expect to see some meta-arc.
Like...you'd have to be a moron to expect "The Wire" to ever end with "closure." Things change, people die, etc. but "The Wire," even more so than "The Sopranos" is about the storytelling, not about the ending. People should be happy that the former has been so consistent over the years (albeit not always perfect). The fact that the ending doesn't do everything viewers want it to is the viewers' problem. Not the show's.
BTW, my favorite posting from the EW site: "The cat was Adrianna!"
When all the former Sopranos' players can't get work elsewhere.
For real though, how many potential movies are supposed to be out there for former TV shows that will never happen?
(still waiting for the Buffy/Angel film....)
right, well the theory goes like this (from NY Times' The Lede Blog):
watch the last scene again (I have several times). everytime someone comes into the door you hear the bell then the camera view shows tony, then switches to his point of view to show who is entering the restaurant. this pattern happens 3 times (first with curly haired lady who looks like janice, then trucker dude with USA cap, then carmela, then hitman followed by AJ, then meadow)
When meadow enters the restaurant you hear the bell, see tony and then it is black. The view from his perspective is black - he is dead.
not saying I buy this theory, just showing how it's not inconsistent with the camera shots I guess.
really though? I mean REALLY though?
Hmmm. Now I am torn.
- "The state can crush the individual." "New Jersey?"
- The terrorism thing was always interesting, albeit never really fleshed out. When Tony asks Harris at the aiport if the whole terrorism thing is overblown, he demurs. Like, "yeah maybe, but it's my job." Also when he describes the false intel as a possible attempt by the terrorists to test their response and Tony's like "WTF?" These are the guys protecting this country? It's a startling realization that I think a lot of people can relate to.
- Bobby's son with the little point at AJ when he's spouting the anti-American pop culture shit. A great half-second shot. That kid always idolized AJ, no matter how much of a douche he was/is.
- Bobby's niece: Fine. Where the fuck did she come from?
- The tour bus going through Little Italy talmbout "This neighborhood used to cover tens of square blocks and is now reduced to a pathetic row of shops and restaurants..." Sad commentary.
- Agent Harris' personal life: Felt a little weak to try to stick this in at the very end of the series, but interesting nonetheless. Arguing on the phone with his wife, apparently cheating on her with the other agent (who's pissed that Harris tells the intel he gets out of her to Tony).
- Agent Harris "rooting" for Tony when he hears that Phil was popped was cheezy to an extreme.
you are?
I don't expect it to happen but yeah, I loved both shows. Wildly underrated, especially "Angel".
how else could they properly end it
as far as who would have killed tony, no shortage of suspects,
maybe patsy getting revenge for spoons, russians, etc (carlo ?)
more likely he would be arrested (carlo?)
the strange foreshadowing at the end of the previous episode
with the flashback of fishing with bobby b,
talking about not hearing/knowing that death was coming
what i want to know is,
when did he order onion rings for the table ?!?
Naw JP, don't be.
These kinds of reads (from the NYT site) are what tire me when it comes to stuff like literary criticism. You can practically dissect any scene and create a vaguely plausible theory. The truth is, people want to see Tony get deaded so badly, they're willing to force the read to fit their conclusion.
The thing is: it's possible Tony dies 2 seconds after the end. It's possible the entire diner gets hit by a comet. Or not. But people who want to read the way the show ended as signifying Tony's death are purely reaching. There's absolutely nothing that makes you believe in this EXCEPT for the desire to believe in it.
And just to add this, considering the number of people who've been killed on the show, it's never been from ANY character's POV. It's always from the audience's POV. Suddenly, the show is going to switch things for the sake of Tony? C'mon. I wish folks would be rational for half a second.
what do yall think of tony and juniors meeting? like when tony realized junior had no idea what he was a part of or what he helped to create.
Is their a reason I'm forgetting why the whole sitdown couldnt have been a power play by butchie/new york? Take out two bosses, ascend, and "do business with whats left?"
Russians again? I think I saw three news stories today that mentioned them too, wow....
That meeting was pretty good (as I wrote above): in the end, Junior used to run shit like Tony is now but look where it's gotten him? There's no glory at the end of the road unless you count getting shot in the head and having your head crushed "glory."
seriously enough with that schitt.
hell, while we're at it: maybe it was the bikers that Chrissy and Tony stole all that liquor from that one time?
no less absurd than the Russian theories....
uh, of course I do.
I also thought the way Harris got brought back in was just weird but then again, the show's always had these weird little tangents.
Just to add: Paulie's "sympathy" for Bobby's niece was helllllla creepy.
Also - the walk from Little Italy by the Brooklyn lieutenant that suddenly finds him in Chinatown without realizing it. Loved the simplicity of that moment.
yeah that was great. sorta tied into the tour bus thing: like, this isn't your father's Little Italy, pal. he looked totally lost out there.