If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
this is true to a degree - the pop charts aren't exactly littered with real talk - but you don't really have to dig that deep to find rappers who are touching on deeper themes than this is why they're hot.
Right--in many cases, you need only look to album cuts by the same artists.
I don't think it's an either/or. I don't think hip-hop is dead. I do think the Mims song is dumb as fuck however.
Can't I have it both ways?
i never said anyone has to like MIMS! i just think its an amusing song i will eventually get sick of but for now its a funny gimmick track that really doesn't deserve as much negative attention as its gonna get from the hip-hop-is-dead contingent. Remember when New York rap used to be fun?
I don't think it's an either/or. I don't think hip-hop is dead. I do think the Mims song is dumb as fuck however.
Can't I have it both ways?
i never said anyone has to like MIMS! i just think its an amusing song i will eventually get sick of but for now its a funny gimmick track that really doesn't deserve as much negative attention as its gonna get from the hip-hop-is-dead contingent. Remember when New York rap used to be fun?
Dude it's not just the HHD contingent that dislikes that record. Everyone but you and people who count ringtones as among their primary interests in life thinks it's terrible.
People seem to get so uptight about this music right now. If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
Was there ever a boat? Sure, Public Enemy were huge but anomalous. Beyond that what sort rap artists ever made pop hits with a message?
And before you answer that - think about pop singles, not album tracks or a group's ideology. Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
Dude it's not just the HHD contingent that dislikes that record. Everyone but you and people who count ringtones as among their primary interests in life thinks it's terrible.
Please allow the genre to grow without whining about some nostalgia bullshit. 20-something rap dudes are getting worse than 60-something jazz purists. If you don't like it, don't listen to it.
The detractors might be bitching about the lyrics, but are they hearing these beats? I originally was drawn to this music because it was all about naked, raw rhythm and hard drum remainders. I'd so much rather hear some trap lyrics with progressive production than a dude rapping about the "old school" over doubles of "The Mexican." It is 2007, not 1977. Dudes constantly trying to relive 1989 is roughly equivalent to throwback rockabilly bands performing with pompadours and a stand-up bass. Style studies vs. actual progression.
I mean if we can agree that hip-hop's origins are in the party (girls, drugs, clubs), why wouldn't a young dude want to rap about how he is the cat that is supplying the drugs, making the money, laying the chicks and running the clubs? Sounds pretty hip-hop to me.
Yes but... Will hip hop always stay a youth oriented deal? Someone brought up Jazz. But maybe the reason there are 60 year old dudes talkin' that stuff, is because really, nobody else cares (Especially 99% of the youth crowd). If you can say to me that in 10, 20 or 30 years the youth will still be interested in Hip Hip, like they have been for the last 30 years, I'd believe you to be wrong. For the same reason the youth for almost any genre hasn't stuck to any other popular music form. Hip Hop can't remain a youngin's genre. it can only hope to keep pullin' in some of the youth from every era from now on. Now, if we're talkin about sub-genres from hip hop, thats a different deal...
It's just impossible for anything to remain popular. Especially with the youth.
The reason Jazz dudes pop that shit is because Jazz was, at one point, passed on and taught hand to hand amidst the community almost akin to apprenticeships. The old dudes lived through seeing it go from that to something you needed a bachelors degree in "improvisation" to get into a club trio with. I'm sure all the young college dudes think that they are just salty and need to get over it as well.
Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
Thank you--a lot of times, rap fans mistake a particular aesthetic for actual substance.
See: The Roots, among the most impressive acts of sleight of hand in the history of rap
If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
this is true to a degree - the pop charts aren't exactly littered with real talk - but you don't really have to dig that deep to find rappers who are touching on deeper themes than this is why they're hot.
Right--in many cases, you need only look to album cuts by the same artists.
EXACTLY. That's sort of what I was getting at, but I didn't get there. What I meant was, if you're listening to the radio expecting to be fully satisfied with your rap experience, then you've missed the boat. There's plenty of "popular" rap out there that can satisfy your craving for poetry, but it's not going to land in your lap, you actually have to listen a little. Even Mims' album might have some heaters on it!
i like the chorus, the beat and the parts where it quotes other beats. he's obviously a shitty rapper but that sort of goes without saying. i wasn't all about young joc's rapping either.
I don't think it's an either/or. I don't think hip-hop is dead. I do think the Mims song is dumb as fuck however.
Can't I have it both ways?
i never said anyone has to like MIMS! i just think its an amusing song i will eventually get sick of but for now its a funny gimmick track that really doesn't deserve as much negative attention as its gonna get from the hip-hop-is-dead contingent. Remember when New York rap used to be fun?
Dude it's not just the HHD contingent that dislikes that record. Everyone but you and people who count ringtones as among their primary interests in life thinks it's terrible.
WRONG.
Yes the lyrics are the worst, but if everyone hates it why can't we keep the original or the remix 12inch in stock and why does every kids that comes through the shop ask for the CD single?
People seem to get so uptight about this music right now. If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
Was there ever a boat? Sure, Public Enemy were huge but anomalous. Beyond that what sort rap artists ever made pop hits with a message?
yea, but who would have even heard it anyway? i am dismissive of the importance of ALL lyrics for all genres, but i think the state of hip-hop is important because hip hop culture has such an enormous impact.
its not the lyrics, but the videos and the imagery, and the fact that hip hop has become the mainstream, which enforces the misconception that "the hip hop world" is close to reality. poor kids are putting more stock in hip hop fantasy land because the people who are perpetuating the stereotypes look just like them. meanwhile, suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes. basically, the youth is f*cked all around. hip-hop imagery does an incredible amount of harm. i'm with the Cos on this one.
People seem to get so uptight about this music right now. If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
Was there ever a boat? Sure, Public Enemy were huge but anomalous. Beyond that what sort rap artists ever made pop hits with a message?
And before you answer that - think about pop singles, not album tracks or a group's ideology. Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
Uh, does "The Message" count? Or "White Lines"? (And yeah, I know "White Lines" didn't begin as an anti-drug song).
I'm not suggesting this constitutes a "movement" but I find it ahistorical for people to insist that "message rap" was purely anomalous. It just was never the DEFINING aesthetic in hip-hop.
As far as the boat, yes there is a boat, the boat is the idea that radio rap is merely a glimpse into an artist's arsenal of musical ideas, and basing your contempt of their music on their radio singles is an exercise in futility. This seems obvious but peoples' biggest gripes have been about songs on the radio.
And before you answer that - think about pop singles, not album tracks or a group's ideology. Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
No argument here, I agree with this. There's no difference between Punks Jump Up and Knuck if u Buck. And I don't think people who enojoyed Punks Jump Up were hyped off of some pioneering lyrics. Yet people were not complaing as much back then, and there's even MORE "conscious" rap out now to listen to than there was in 93.
I don't think it's an either/or. I don't think hip-hop is dead. I do think the Mims song is dumb as fuck however.
Can't I have it both ways?
i never said anyone has to like MIMS! i just think its an amusing song i will eventually get sick of but for now its a funny gimmick track that really doesn't deserve as much negative attention as its gonna get from the hip-hop-is-dead contingent. Remember when New York rap used to be fun?
Dude it's not just the HHD contingent that dislikes that record. Everyone but you and people who count ringtones as among their primary interests in life thinks it's terrible.
WRONG.
Yes the lyrics are the worst, but if everyone hates it why can't we keep the original or the remix 12inch in stock and why does every kids that comes through the shop ask for the CD single?
The beat is dope.
Dude, brush up on that reading comprehension.
I'm aware that it's now No. 1 on Billboard's singles chart and that it's inescapable in NY. By "everyone," I meant everyone party to the current discussion. Did you really think I was trying to claim that it isn't popular? We wouldn't even be discussing it if that were the case. I was just talking trash with deej.
i figured he was better enjoyed as a 'singles artist' i'm entirely fine w/ being corrected about this if it turns out one of these records is fire - but generally in both cases my enjoyment of the song had v. little to do with expectations that dudes would make great albums. I was sent a promo copies of the webstar and jibbs cds and on a whim checked those out, and was unsurprised w/ the underwhelming results. (actually jibbs' cd had a couple hot beats. Not enough to make it worth it tho) I'm cool with trashy fun time rap music but most of these dudes are going to be more deserving of some 'mid-00s pop rap' compilation in ten years (or on mixtapes&radio right now) than albums rushed out by the label in the hopes of banking off a hit single.
Uh, does "The Message" count? Or "White Lines"? (And yeah, I know "White Lines" didn't begin as an anti-drug song).
So we've now identified two artists over the course of thirty years and thousands of pop rap hits. That still seems like a statistical anonomaly to me.
poor kids are putting more stock in hip hop fantasy land because the people who are perpetuating the stereotypes look just like them.
you sure about this ?
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
the youth is f*cked all around.
hip-hop imagery does an incredible amount of harm.
People seem to get so uptight about this music right now. If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
Was there ever a boat? Sure, Public Enemy were huge but anomalous. Beyond that what sort rap artists ever made pop hits with a message?
And before you answer that - think about pop singles, not album tracks or a group's ideology. Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
Uh, does "The Message" count? Or "White Lines"? (And yeah, I know "White Lines" didn't begin as an anti-drug song).
I'm not suggesting this constitutes a "movement" but I find it ahistorical for people to insist that "message rap" was purely anomalous. It just was never the DEFINING aesthetic in hip-hop.
For the most part it was anomalous during that initial period, though--most of the early examples you can point to are just that.
I believe that "The Message" was actually written by Duke Bootee and that Melle Mel was reluctant to record it because he thought it was corny. "How we Gonna Make The Black Nation Rise?" from three years earlier was recorded by a schoolteacher, rather than a core participant in the hip-hop scene of the time. Etc.
Will hip hop always stay a youth oriented deal? Someone brought up Jazz. But maybe the reason there are 60 year old dudes talkin' that stuff, is because really, nobody else cares (Especially 99% of the youth crowd). If you can say to me that in 10, 20 or 30 years the youth will still be interested in Hip Hip, like they have been for the last 30 years, I'd believe you to be wrong. For the same reason the youth for almost any genre hasn't stuck to any other popular music form. Hip Hop can't remain a youngin's genre. it can only hope to keep pullin' in some of the youth from every era from now on. Now, if we're talkin about sub-genres from hip hop, thats a different deal...
It's just impossible for anything to remain popular. Especially with the youth.
Dude, rock music has been with us since what? The 1950s? IT'S STILL POPULAR WITH YOUTH even if it no longer has the monopoly on the genre.
Hip-hop has been around for nearly 30 years now and has been popular not just with the 17 year olds who were bumping Sugarhill back in '79 but with consecutive generations of youth.
None of this guarantees hip-hop's success in the future. In 1977, I doubt anyone would have seen hip-hop coming as a national/world-changing genre. That's part of the beauty of pop music - everything looks obvious in hindsight but no one can predict what's going to hit and what won't.
But the fact is: we just don't know. Maybe there will be some new style that's going to blow up later this year that's going to become THE new style. But at least at this current moment, hip-hop has demonstrated, fairly convincingly, that it continues to be popular with wide diversity of listeners, even amongst youth for whom Biggie is "old school" (i.e. those lacking a sense of hip-hop history can still find something to get down with in contemporary hip-hop).
People seem to get so uptight about this music right now. If you're listening to popular rap expecting to hear meaningful, heart-felt lyrics you can identify with, then you've missed the boat.
Was there ever a boat? Sure, Public Enemy were huge but anomalous. Beyond that what sort rap artists ever made pop hits with a message?
And before you answer that - think about pop singles, not album tracks or a group's ideology. Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
Uh, does "The Message" count? Or "White Lines"? (And yeah, I know "White Lines" didn't begin as an anti-drug song).
I'm not suggesting this constitutes a "movement" but I find it ahistorical for people to insist that "message rap" was purely anomalous. It just was never the DEFINING aesthetic in hip-hop.
Message rap was as anomalous, by the numbers, as novelty rap was. I would say there are equal amounts of each. There might even be more novelty records in existence than message-themed records.
The difference is of course that the core hip-hop community embraced message rap whereas novelty rap was always rejected.
This argument - about lyrical content - is as old as rap itself. Conscious rappers dissed the gangsters and dope dealers back in the late 80s. The entire east coast/west coast beef was about lyrical content.
If you define rap consciousness as being a direct descendant of NOI or 5% ideology, mixed with conspiracy theories, and explicitly political, then it is true that there has been a massive decline. But if you look through a lot of the southern and west coast rap releases from the last 10 years, there's a ton of what I would consider to be "conscious" rapping, but it is more derived from the church influence and contains heavier overtones of forgiveness and accountability than political or revolutionary ones.
I hear what you're saying and if I'm interpreting it correctly, what I'd agree with is that folks in this debate tend to create these artificially narrow categories for what or what doesn't constitute socially-engaged music or not. If people only think political rap encompasses Immortal Technique then sure, it would seem pretty anomalous on both sides of the aisle. But to me, there's a lot more socially-engaged hip-hop out there than the songs that wear their politics on their sleeve.
I think that's worth considering from all sides - that hip-hop isn't nearly as apolitical as either detractors or boosters think it may be.
I think the happy medium will be the Jus Rhymes/AR-15 remix of "That's Why I'm Hot".
poor kids are putting more stock in hip hop fantasy land because the people who are perpetuating the stereotypes look just like them.
you sure about this ?
suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes.
the youth is f*cked all around.
hip-hop imagery does an incredible amount of harm.
on who or what ?
don't be that guy who answers every argument by saying "is it though?". if you disagree, say why.
Comments
Right--in many cases, you need only look to album cuts by the same artists.
Dude it's not just the HHD contingent that dislikes that record. Everyone but you and people who count ringtones as among their primary interests in life thinks it's terrible.
Was there ever a boat? Sure, Public Enemy were huge but anomalous. Beyond that what sort rap artists ever made pop hits with a message?
And before you answer that - think about pop singles, not album tracks or a group's ideology. Did "Scenario" have a message or was it pretty much vapid sing a long rap? What's the philosophical difference between "Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down" and "Knuck if you Buck"?
The reason Jazz dudes pop that shit is because Jazz was, at one point, passed on and taught hand to hand amidst the community almost akin to apprenticeships. The old dudes lived through seeing it go from that to something you needed a bachelors degree in "improvisation" to get into a club trio with. I'm sure all the young college dudes think that they are just salty and need to get over it as well.
Thank you--a lot of times, rap fans mistake a particular aesthetic for actual substance.
See: The Roots, among the most impressive acts of sleight of hand in the history of rap
EXACTLY. That's sort of what I was getting at, but I didn't get there. What I meant was, if you're listening to the radio expecting to be fully satisfied with your rap experience, then you've missed the boat. There's plenty of "popular" rap out there that can satisfy your craving for poetry, but it's not going to land in your lap, you actually have to listen a little. Even Mims' album might have some heaters on it!
rare an occurence it may be, but sometimes you're on point with your comments.
We eagerly await deej's report.
^^^^^LOVES MY STYLE; WANTED TO BE ON EVERY LAST ONE OF MY CLASSICS
WRONG.
Yes the lyrics are the worst, but if everyone hates it why can't we keep the original or the remix 12inch in stock and why does every kids that comes through the shop ask for the CD single?
The beat is dope.
I'd say a lot of crack-oriented rap deals with exactly these themes!
yea, but who would have even heard it anyway? i am dismissive of the importance of ALL lyrics for all genres, but i think the state of hip-hop is important because hip hop culture has such an enormous impact.
its not the lyrics, but the videos and the imagery, and the fact that hip hop has become the mainstream, which enforces the misconception that "the hip hop world" is close to reality. poor kids are putting more stock in hip hop fantasy land because the people who are perpetuating the stereotypes look just like them. meanwhile, suburban white kids are growing up yelling n*gga at eachother and thinking they are living the hip-hop life because their moms are driving bmw's and their fathers have rolexes. basically, the youth is f*cked all around. hip-hop imagery does an incredible amount of harm. i'm with the Cos on this one.
Uh, does "The Message" count? Or "White Lines"? (And yeah, I know "White Lines" didn't begin as an anti-drug song).
I'm not suggesting this constitutes a "movement" but I find it ahistorical for people to insist that "message rap" was purely anomalous. It just was never the DEFINING aesthetic in hip-hop.
why not ?
why ?
As far as the boat, yes there is a boat, the boat is the idea that radio rap is merely a glimpse into an artist's arsenal of musical ideas, and basing your contempt of their music on their radio singles is an exercise in futility. This seems obvious but peoples' biggest gripes have been about songs on the radio.
No argument here, I agree with this. There's no difference between Punks Jump Up and Knuck if u Buck. And I don't think people who enojoyed Punks Jump Up were hyped off of some pioneering lyrics. Yet people were not complaing as much back then, and there's even MORE "conscious" rap out now to listen to than there was in 93.
Dude, brush up on that reading comprehension.
I'm aware that it's now No. 1 on Billboard's singles chart and that it's inescapable in NY. By "everyone," I meant everyone party to the current discussion. Did you really think I was trying to claim that it isn't popular? We wouldn't even be discussing it if that were the case. I was just talking trash with deej.
i'm entirely fine w/ being corrected about this if it turns out one of these records is fire - but generally in both cases my enjoyment of the song had v. little to do with expectations that dudes would make great albums. I was sent a promo copies of the webstar and jibbs cds and on a whim checked those out, and was unsurprised w/ the underwhelming results. (actually jibbs' cd had a couple hot beats. Not enough to make it worth it tho) I'm cool with trashy fun time rap music but most of these dudes are going to be more deserving of some 'mid-00s pop rap' compilation in ten years (or on mixtapes&radio right now) than albums rushed out by the label in the hopes of banking off a hit single.
D4L's album was legitimately good
So we've now identified two artists over the course of thirty years and thousands of pop rap hits. That still seems like a statistical anonomaly to me.
on what ?
you sure about this ?
on who or what ?
For the most part it was anomalous during that initial period, though--most of the early examples you can point to are just that.
I believe that "The Message" was actually written by Duke Bootee and that Melle Mel was reluctant to record it because he thought it was corny. "How we Gonna Make The Black Nation Rise?" from three years earlier was recorded by a schoolteacher, rather than a core participant in the hip-hop scene of the time. Etc.
Dude, rock music has been with us since what? The 1950s? IT'S STILL POPULAR WITH YOUTH even if it no longer has the monopoly on the genre.
Hip-hop has been around for nearly 30 years now and has been popular not just with the 17 year olds who were bumping Sugarhill back in '79 but with consecutive generations of youth.
None of this guarantees hip-hop's success in the future. In 1977, I doubt anyone would have seen hip-hop coming as a national/world-changing genre. That's part of the beauty of pop music - everything looks obvious in hindsight but no one can predict what's going to hit and what won't.
But the fact is: we just don't know. Maybe there will be some new style that's going to blow up later this year that's going to become THE new style. But at least at this current moment, hip-hop has demonstrated, fairly convincingly, that it continues to be popular with wide diversity of listeners, even amongst youth for whom Biggie is "old school" (i.e. those lacking a sense of hip-hop history can still find something to get down with in contemporary hip-hop).
Message rap was as anomalous, by the numbers, as novelty rap was. I would say there are equal amounts of each. There might even be more novelty records in existence than message-themed records.
The difference is of course that the core hip-hop community embraced message rap whereas novelty rap was always rejected.
This argument - about lyrical content - is as old as rap itself. Conscious rappers dissed the gangsters and dope dealers back in the late 80s. The entire east coast/west coast beef was about lyrical content.
If you define rap consciousness as being a direct descendant of NOI or 5% ideology, mixed with conspiracy theories, and explicitly political, then it is true that there has been a massive decline. But if you look through a lot of the southern and west coast rap releases from the last 10 years, there's a ton of what I would consider to be "conscious" rapping, but it is more derived from the church influence and contains heavier overtones of forgiveness and accountability than political or revolutionary ones.
I hear what you're saying and if I'm interpreting it correctly, what I'd agree with is that folks in this debate tend to create these artificially narrow categories for what or what doesn't constitute socially-engaged music or not. If people only think political rap encompasses Immortal Technique then sure, it would seem pretty anomalous on both sides of the aisle. But to me, there's a lot more socially-engaged hip-hop out there than the songs that wear their politics on their sleeve.
I think that's worth considering from all sides - that hip-hop isn't nearly as apolitical as either detractors or boosters think it may be.
I think the happy medium will be the Jus Rhymes/AR-15 remix of "That's Why I'm Hot".
don't be that guy who answers every argument by saying "is it though?". if you disagree, say why.