So, if yr ready to be shocked and awed - Jay's highest charting single was "Bonnie and Clyde '03"
Blueprint 2 is a classic.
Perhaps there is a single classic disc spread out amongst its ~30 tracks, but it is definitely not a classic.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
The people that liked RD were of a certain type.
Well, I was all about Hiero when RD came out. That, and insisting that "Beats Rhymes & Life" was a groundbreaking, innovative record which people wouldn't get until years later...
So not only did you have the problem of such a NYC-centric artist not really making much headway in markets still dominated by West Coast gangsta rap along with its Southern and Midwestern offshoots, but plenty of the dudes who were previously all over Gang Starr, Wu Tang, Nas, Black Moon, Mobb Deep, etc. jumped ship when it got to Biggie to certain extent and most certainly when it got to Jay-Z. So NYC still had its core Fat Joe-apologists and wannabe gambinos on lock, and with Biggie and Jay-Z it added swarms of girls and total cheeseballs to that lot. I don't see that as much of a victory, in that why was it so cool to turn away so many that had been into rap for the longest in favor of some dingbat mall patrons?
NYC fucked up the game. It's paying the price for it now. And if there is anyone to blame aside from Puffy, it's Jay-Z.
It's interesting what you say here, because I would have completely agreed with much of it circa 97/98, when I thought shit was getting real samey and repetitive. Around then, I might say to my friends, "When is Jay-Z going to stop making the same record over and over (only not as good)?" Unevenness of his subsequent few records aside, I was not (and still am not) about to front on RD just because most of the people who happened to follow that record's lead didn't have anything original of their own to bring to the game. There's a tendency to blame artists for all the shitty copyists who come in their wake, as if the shitty copyists are their fault. Obviously, I'm saying all this as an observer from the other side of the Atlantic, so make of this what you will, but back in the early '80's, you'd have records like "Planet Rock", Art Of Noise and "Sucker MCs" coming out every few months, and shit would change completely - half the people would be like "WTF??", while the other half ran off and cranked out knock-offs of those joints for the next three months, so there was this sense that the music was constantly developing. To me it seemed like, after RD came out, those kind of regular creative shifts in NYC music dropped off almost completely. I think this was more to do with the fact that RD's release coincided with the point when it became clear to a lot of people that there was some serious fucking money to be made out of rap music, and the simplest way to get that money was by copying what was hot. And Jay-Z and Puffy were hot for a long time, so that was pretty much all you got for a good few years. Then along came No Limit, Cash Money, Timbaland and all them, and blew up nationwide, and NYC hasn't really been able to exert the same kind of hold since, at least not until 50 came along.
I remember reading an interview with Busta around the time "Woo-Hah!" was the hottest shit out, and he was saying how Puffy had told him that if that joint had a more commercial beat, it would have sold 3 million instead of 1 million, and Busta was like, "What the fuck? I did some left-field shit and still got a million-selling record!" Ten years earlier, producers would have been trying to do another "Woo-Hah!", simply because it was "some left-field shit", but what was happening instead was that they went for the 3 million-selling #1 hit by sampling something which had already been a 3 million-selling #1 hit, because that represented the easier, more profitable option. I don't blame Puffy or Jay-Z for fucking up the game (or at least I don't any longer); I blame the people who didn't have the talent or imagination to come out with some shit that would knock people back on their heels to the extent that it simply couldn't be fronted on.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
DocMcCoy makes some good pts on this thread actually, his thing about RD combining street and jiggy shit is pretty good. I think for me it works that way, but as a forerunner, an accidental formula, rather than a landmark.
Also, none of you have correctly guessed Jigga's biggest charting single yet.
My location is Chicago.
If we're talking own singles rather than guest spots I would be guessing it was Big Pimpin? That was probably his biggest hit in the UK anyway.
Nah, man - that'd be Hard Knock Life. That one was absolutely everywhere.
RD had a hard time in the midwest. The first single was hot Dead PRez/Ain't No, but Feelin It didn't go over as well. The segment that listened to rap was into grittier shit and still recovering from the Wu-Tang takeover. Besides that add to the fact that Jay-z slowed his whole style down, and really alot of people thought it was Biggie or 2-Pac knockoff. Granted I knew the shit was huge in New York only because my homie from NY went on about that cd day after day.
I think there is a certain amount of having to be in NYC when this album dropped to really get it. RD is a solid album but it never was as huge to me and alot of rap listeners in the MIDWEST as Ready To Die, Illmatic, Enter The Wu-Tang, etc.
I think there is a certain amount of having to be in NYC when this album dropped to really get it. RD is a solid album but it never was as huge to me and alot of rap listeners in the MIDWEST as Ready To Die, Illmatic, Enter The Wu-Tang, etc.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Where are you from?
edit: so yr saying that Reasonable Doubt was a REGIONAL RAP record?
I agree with the general thrust of noz' post. I'd say Reasonable Doubt is a classic record, but unlike Illmatic, it wasn't recognized as such til much later. Nas HAS produced tons of great shit since Illmatic (admittedly hardly any of it was included on his non bootleg records) but of course nothing compares to Illmatic. Jay studied Big's unforced Big Poppa type persona and found an image that worked.
It needs to be said that in the genre of Hip Hop where compared to other forms of music, longevity has been a real challenge, Jay's business sense has allowed him the opportunity to be more and more focused artistically. Not to make this a Nas/ Jiggaman thing, but if Nas had the sort of power in the meeting room at the record label that Jay-Z has had, those nice bootleg joint wouldv'e been put out properly. (not on some half assed Lost Tapes shit.)
Not to make this a Nas/ Jiggaman thing, but if Nas had the sort of power in the meeting room at the record label that Jay-Z has had, those nice bootleg joint wouldv'e been put out properly. (not on some half assed Lost Tapes shit.)
I've always been under the impression that Nas is choosing the tracks that go on his LPs, and that he cannot tell the difference between a great beat and a shit one
I think there is a certain amount of having to be in NYC when this album dropped to really get it. RD is a solid album but it never was as huge to me and alot of rap listeners in the MIDWEST as Ready To Die, Illmatic, Enter The Wu-Tang, etc.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Where are you from?
edit: so yr saying that Reasonable Doubt was a REGIONAL RAP record?
From Ohio originally. I wouldn't say that it was a regional rap record only that the first single was pretty huge. However the album itself didn't seem to go over as well as a whole when it dropped. People liked it, but it wasn't really game changing until it was put into perspective of the whole movement that followed.
I agree with the general thrust of noz' post. I'd say Reasonable Doubt is a classic record, but unlike Illmatic, it wasn't recognized as such til much later.
New York cats have been calling it a classic since day one...
Not to make this a Nas/ Jiggaman thing, but if Nas had the sort of power in the meeting room at the record label that Jay-Z has had, those nice bootleg joint wouldv'e been put out properly. (not on some half assed Lost Tapes shit.)
I've always been under the impression that Nas is choosing the tracks that go on his LPs, and that he cannot tell the difference between a great beat and a shit one
Agreed about Nas. After the stellar production of his first album, I figured he was a dude who knew beats. Turns out he was just lucky; he seems to be of the "I don't care what the beat is, just give it to me and let me rap" persuasion.
hip hop heads wanna clown me all the time for this, but i've never heard a single jay z album. i've heard a lot of his songs but none of them ever made me wanna go out and cop any of his albums. shit, am i missing something here? from day one, i never understood why there was so much hype around him. first time i heard him was on the stretch armstrong bobbito show freestyling with big L... compared to L he sounds like a chump little school kid trying to be down. still does.
Dude I swear that your my boy Moss but you're not. He's the only other guy I know who just doesn't listen to Jiggaman.
I think it might be a Canadian thing, 'cause I've never been a fan as well.
RD does not stand up to Illmatic or RTD IMO.* It's a great fucking record and the very solid catalog that followed gives it some additional weight.
Everyone has always been about RD and I've been guilty of overlooking Vol3, but since Noz posted that, I been listening to Vol3 again and I have enjoyed this reevalaution period very much. Thank you.
I agree with the general thrust of noz' post. I'd say Reasonable Doubt is a classic record, but unlike Illmatic, it wasn't recognized as such til much later.
New York cats have been calling it a classic since day one...
While it didn't receive the critical slobbing that Illmatic did at the time of it's release, a lot more people where I lived listened to it than listened to Illmatic.
I still don't get these dudes trying to act like it was some regional obscurity and tend to think it's an attempt to make excuses for the fact that they were hating at the time.
I agree with the general thrust of noz' post. I'd say Reasonable Doubt is a classic record, but unlike Illmatic, it wasn't recognized as such til much later.
New York cats have been calling it a classic since day one...
While it didn't receive the critical slobbing that Illmatic did at the time of it's release, a lot more people where I lived listened to it than listened to Illmatic.
I still don't get these dudes trying to act like it was some regional obscurity and tend to think it's an attempt to make excuses for the fact that they were hating at the time.
Now I was 13 when it dropped so grain of salt (although if we're talking about INFLUENCE then that shouldn't matter since most big rappers right now are right around my age...I think T.I. is two years older than me) but RD was just straight up not that big here in Chicago. Maybe in some older hip-hop head circles, but in terms of a straight movement, where it was banging out of cars and shit like that? No way.
I wasn't hating in '96, I just only knew one song from the record.
Comments
I'm speechless.
Truly, this thread represents some of your best work.
The only thing that could possibly improve it would be a tirade against the fraternities that you know all of us to belong to.
Blueprint 2 is a classic.
Perhaps there is a single classic disc spread out amongst its ~30 tracks, but it is definitely not a classic.
Well, I was all about Hiero when RD came out. That, and insisting that "Beats Rhymes & Life" was a groundbreaking, innovative record which people wouldn't get until years later...
It's interesting what you say here, because I would have completely agreed with much of it circa 97/98, when I thought shit was getting real samey and repetitive. Around then, I might say to my friends, "When is Jay-Z going to stop making the same record over and over (only not as good)?" Unevenness of his subsequent few records aside, I was not (and still am not) about to front on RD just because most of the people who happened to follow that record's lead didn't have anything original of their own to bring to the game. There's a tendency to blame artists for all the shitty copyists who come in their wake, as if the shitty copyists are their fault. Obviously, I'm saying all this as an observer from the other side of the Atlantic, so make of this what you will, but back in the early '80's, you'd have records like "Planet Rock", Art Of Noise and "Sucker MCs" coming out every few months, and shit would change completely - half the people would be like "WTF??", while the other half ran off and cranked out knock-offs of those joints for the next three months, so there was this sense that the music was constantly developing. To me it seemed like, after RD came out, those kind of regular creative shifts in NYC music dropped off almost completely. I think this was more to do with the fact that RD's release coincided with the point when it became clear to a lot of people that there was some serious fucking money to be made out of rap music, and the simplest way to get that money was by copying what was hot. And Jay-Z and Puffy were hot for a long time, so that was pretty much all you got for a good few years. Then along came No Limit, Cash Money, Timbaland and all them, and blew up nationwide, and NYC hasn't really been able to exert the same kind of hold since, at least not until 50 came along.
I remember reading an interview with Busta around the time "Woo-Hah!" was the hottest shit out, and he was saying how Puffy had told him that if that joint had a more commercial beat, it would have sold 3 million instead of 1 million, and Busta was like, "What the fuck? I did some left-field shit and still got a million-selling record!" Ten years earlier, producers would have been trying to do another "Woo-Hah!", simply because it was "some left-field shit", but what was happening instead was that they went for the 3 million-selling #1 hit by sampling something which had already been a 3 million-selling #1 hit, because that represented the easier, more profitable option. I don't blame Puffy or Jay-Z for fucking up the game (or at least I don't any longer); I blame the people who didn't have the talent or imagination to come out with some shit that would knock people back on their heels to the extent that it simply couldn't be fronted on.
Nah, man - that'd be Hard Knock Life. That one was absolutely everywhere.
I donno about classic but severely underrated. A good classic 80 minute album is up inside it too.
Bonnie and Clyde '03 is still garbage. I do like the Summerheadz house remix.
oh, behave....
I think there is a certain amount of having to be in NYC when this album dropped to really get it. RD is a solid album but it never was as huge to me and alot of rap listeners in the MIDWEST as Ready To Die, Illmatic, Enter The Wu-Tang, etc.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Where are you from?
edit: so yr saying that Reasonable Doubt was a
I agree with the general thrust of noz' post. I'd say Reasonable Doubt is a classic record, but unlike Illmatic, it wasn't recognized as such til much later. Nas HAS produced tons of great shit since Illmatic (admittedly hardly any of it was included on his non bootleg records) but of course nothing compares to Illmatic. Jay studied Big's unforced Big Poppa type persona and found an image that worked.
It needs to be said that in the genre of Hip Hop where compared to other forms of music, longevity has been a real challenge, Jay's business sense has allowed him the opportunity to be more and more focused artistically. Not to make this a Nas/ Jiggaman thing, but if Nas had the sort of power in the meeting room at the record label that Jay-Z has had, those nice bootleg joint wouldv'e been put out properly. (not on some half assed Lost Tapes shit.)
I've always been under the impression that Nas is choosing the tracks that go on his LPs, and that he cannot tell the difference between a great beat and a shit one
From Ohio originally. I wouldn't say that it was a regional rap record only that the first single was pretty huge. However the album itself didn't seem to go over as well as a whole when it dropped. People liked it, but it wasn't really game changing until it was put into perspective of the whole movement that followed.
New York cats have been calling it a classic since day one...
Agreed about Nas. After the stellar production of his first album, I figured he was a dude who knew beats. Turns out he was just lucky; he seems to be of the "I don't care what the beat is, just give it to me and let me rap" persuasion.
I think it might be a Canadian thing, 'cause I've never been a fan as well.
Moss, Blaz, Myslef...
K.
Everyone has always been about RD and I've been guilty of overlooking Vol3, but since Noz posted that, I been listening to Vol3 again and I have enjoyed this reevalaution period very much. Thank you.
*insert TFA quip.
While it didn't receive the critical slobbing that Illmatic did at the time of it's release, a lot more people where I lived listened to it than listened to Illmatic.
I still don't get these dudes trying to act like it was some regional obscurity and tend to think it's an attempt to make excuses for the fact that they were hating at the time.
Are they from West Coast? I don't watch TV, so you got me stumped. I think I sell their DJ beats, though (Rob V???) - that's how I know about them.
Bash me if you want, but I think the last hip hop 12 I bought was Ijuswannachill ...and I didn't like it.
K.
Now I was 13 when it dropped so grain of salt (although if we're talking about INFLUENCE then that shouldn't matter since most big rappers right now are right around my age...I think T.I. is two years older than me) but RD was just straight up not that big here in Chicago. Maybe in some older hip-hop head circles, but in terms of a straight movement, where it was banging out of cars and shit like that? No way.
I wasn't hating in '96, I just only knew one song from the record.
How would I not be?
Was this before or after the Kriss-Kross phase?
I suppose it is entirely possible that you were running the streets, showing out at the hot spots, and clocking the scene after curfew.
But I am going to assume that you were at home with your folks or at school most of the time. How wrong am I?
Raffi tapes in the family station wagon?