also "Watch Me" is way less than the sum of its parts, and I can't give props to any song called "NYMP".
Timbaland's tracks on that record were out of control though.
Things that U Do is the only one of those I'm not really feeling. S. Carter, Pop 4 Roc and There's Been a Murder are good.
I think "being there" is a perfectly legitimate support of liking a record actually, assuming that its expounded upon; "you wouldn't get it because you weren't there" is a crap criticism though. I don't think that this is contradictory. But I think there is more to explain. What about certain songs made being there so special? There were lots of songs released in '96 that you don't associate with 'being there,' even popular ones. So I think there's more to be discussed and it works as a jumping off point, but as an argument's endpoint its pretty limited.
also "Watch Me" is way less than the sum of its parts, and I can't give props to any song called "NYMP".
Timbaland's tracks on that record were out of control though.
All those songs were embarassing. Especially that Mariah shit. Wow, I had forgot about how wack that shit was. Swizz Beats was ruining rap during that time.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
PS: Can you guess what Jay's highest charting single is without looking it up?
PS: Can you guess what Jay's highest charting single is without looking it up?
Gotta be "Sunshine"?
"Give it To Me"??
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Oh yeah, I listened to Originators last night. I am glad to have done so. It gives me a broader perspective of Jay-Z. He actually comes off pretty nicely on there.
As far as it being a precedent to the chopped-double timed style...I'd call it a footnote.
It's obviously at least double-timed, but there's not enough variation to call it chopped. It sticks too closely to that same biggita-biggita-biggita phrasing, which had previous to '90 been done by Big Daddy Kane, among others.
So while the East took that old idea and wound up with Naughty by Nature and DasEfx, the West gave it more of a wobbly effect where different melodies were incorporated into their cadences. Thus the West wound up with Bone biting Mikah 9 and eventually Brotha Lynch Hung.
Somewhere in between those 2 coastal camps was Twista...who I respect as a pioneer more and more every day.
Then there's Gangsta Pat too, whose catalog I still need to explore further.
But the other thing was comparing Originators to Nigga What, Nigga Who...and it remains obvious to me that for their second version of Originators, Jay and Jaz OBVIOULY bit some West Coast flavor in order to inaccurately conject that they "originated" a modern style that didn't necesarily run through them in the first place.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
The thing that makes those albums so important is how much they changed what other people were rapping like. While you may not like it, Reasonable Doubt had the same effect - I would absolutely include it in that list.
I think this is absolutely true in relation to RD. A lot of NY rap was still on that post-Illmatic/The Infamous, "it's a cold hard world" introspective fatalism when RD dropped, and that record was like the bridge between the grittier street shit and all the Fifth Avenue shit that was poppin' off on Bad Boy.
And what has that marriage done for NYC rap since?
While I think I know what you're driving at, I would suggest that any decline in NYC rap would be more a result of the copyists running down artistic blind alleys instead of coming up with some game-changing shit of their own.
I like all of these songs except maybe "There's Been a Murder"
I can see you using your hairbrush as a mic in front of the mirror tawnbout:
Uh, uh, uh See me comin through hair done just a slinging my s**t With something Gucci on clinging to my hips Frontin with the Star Tech ringing in the whip Icy ears, neck, fingers for years Got the show wild with the toes out Shit I don't fuck with no stingy ni**a I rock Prada, Chanel, and Fendi ni**a What I'mma do with your little blunts and Henney ni**a? I'mma Major Coin with a pretty Bentley ni**a Uh my ni**as will ride for me You should see all the things they buy for me Uh, it's obvious how I spend my time Around ballers all day don't have to spend a dime Callin' up room service when it's dinner time Get my tan on in the tropics in the winter time ni**a, uh, uh, uh
DocMcCoy makes some good pts on this thread actually, his thing about RD combining street and jiggy shit is pretty good. I think for me it works that way, but as a forerunner, an accidental formula, rather than a landmark.
Also, none of you have correctly guessed Jigga's biggest charting single yet.
But the other thing was comparing Originators to Nigga What, Nigga Who...and it remains obvious to me that for their second version of Originators, Jay and Jaz OBVIOULY bit some West Coast flavor in order to inaccurately conject that they "originated" a modern style that didn't necesarily run through them in the first place.
OBVIOUSLY
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
And what is this attempt to marginalize RD as some sort of "well, I guess it may have seemed classic if you lived in NY at the time" schitt? We are not talking about some Project Blowed schitt that only seems classic if your name is Archaic. RD is a straight up rap classic--no qualification necessary. I lived in ATL at the time and never had a problem recognizing it.
The people that liked RD were of a certain type. So not only did you have the problem of such a NYC-centric artist not really making much headway in markets still dominated by West Coast gangsta rap along with its Southern and Midwestern offshoots, but plenty of the dudes who were previously all over Gang Starr, Wu Tang, Nas, Black Moon, Mobb Deep, etc. jumped ship when it got to Biggie to certain extent and most certainly when it got to Jay-Z. So NYC still had its core Fat Joe-apologists and wannabe gambinos on lock, and with Biggie and Jay-Z it added swarms of girls and total cheeseballs to that lot. I don't see that as much of a victory, in that why was it so cool to turn away so many that had been into rap for the longest in favor of some dingbat mall patrons?
NYC fucked up the game. It's paying the price for it now. And if there is anyone to blame aside from Puffy, it's Jay-Z.
DocMcCoy makes some good pts on this thread actually, his thing about RD combining street and jiggy shit is pretty good. I think for me it works that way, but as a forerunner, an accidental formula, rather than a landmark.
Also, none of you have correctly guessed Jigga's biggest charting single yet.
My location is Chicago.
If we're talking own singles rather than guest spots I would be guessing it was Big Pimpin? That was probably his biggest hit in the UK anyway.
And what is this attempt to marginalize RD as some sort of "well, I guess it may have seemed classic if you lived in NY at the time" schitt? We are not talking about some Project Blowed schitt that only seems classic if your name is Archaic. RD is a straight up rap classic--no qualification necessary. I lived in ATL at the time and never had a problem recognizing it.
The people that liked RD were of a certain type. So not only did you have the problem of such a NYC-centric artist not really making much headway in markets still dominated by West Coast gangsta rap along with its Southern and Midwestern offshoots, but plenty of the dudes who were previously all over Gang Starr, Wu Tang, Nas, Black Moon, Mobb Deep, etc. jumped ship when it got to Biggie to certain extent and most certainly when it got to Jay-Z. So NYC still had its core Fat Joe-apologists and wannabe gambinos on lock, and with Biggie and Jay-Z it added swarms of girls and total cheeseballs to that lot. I don't see that as much of a victory, in that why was it so cool to turn away so many that had been into rap for the longest in favor of some dingbat mall patrons?
NYC fucked up the game. It's paying the price for it now. And if there is anyone to blame aside from Puffy, it's Jay-Z.
Now we're getting to the meat of the discussion: Jay-z ruined rap!
But yeah, I think that sort of grassroots buzz for RD must have been over my head, or something. I was definitely listening to rap then, but in '96 I remember Bone Thugs and Crucial Conflict and Do or Die and Tupac being huge - kids rapping lyrics and shouting the hooks in the hallways at school etc. - but certainly not Jay-Z; "Ain't No N****" was a pretty minor hit at the time in the midwest. Jay-Z got really big that way with "Hard Knock Life" and then that string of hits afterwards - "Can I Get A..." "Big Pimpin" etc etc etc. So yeah, for RD it was definitely about going backwards to get into it.
Ain't No... was a big hit on radio and TV (pretty good for a b-side) and it was followed up by Feelin It which was HUGE, with a big-budget video and everything
Hell, they were even putting multiple album tracks from RD on mixtapes at the time
Who cares? If I'm more likely to pull out an inconsistent album and hit the 'skip' button a couple times i'd rather do that if its got 10-15 tracks I'm really interested in hearing. I don't see whats so holy about 'consistency,' what a boring thing to be interested in. Thats like the difference between dancing to music and giving music a firm handshake.
Plenty of my favorite CDs are singles collections, with no real 'thematic' link whatsoever. Which is fine, lots of great albums are just clumps of songs.
And they say the youth don't appreciate the album format anymore
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
If hip-hop is about being as biting-ass, cheesy commercialized American as can be, then give me Jay-Z and give me daddy's credit card and let's start a movement for the people.
Comments
Things that U Do is the only one of those I'm not really feeling. S. Carter, Pop 4 Roc and There's Been a Murder are good.
I think "being there" is a perfectly legitimate support of liking a record actually, assuming that its expounded upon; "you wouldn't get it because you weren't there" is a crap criticism though. I don't think that this is contradictory. But I think there is more to explain. What about certain songs made being there so special? There were lots of songs released in '96 that you don't associate with 'being there,' even popular ones. So I think there's more to be discussed and it works as a jumping off point, but as an argument's endpoint its pretty limited.
"Timelessness" is kind of meaningless, I think.
I like all of these songs except maybe "There's Been a Murder"
Gotta be "Sunshine"?
"Give it To Me"??
As far as it being a precedent to the chopped-double timed style...I'd call it a footnote.
It's obviously at least double-timed, but there's not enough variation to call it chopped. It sticks too closely to that same biggita-biggita-biggita phrasing, which had previous to '90 been done by Big Daddy Kane, among others.
So while the East took that old idea and wound up with Naughty by Nature and DasEfx, the West gave it more of a wobbly effect where different melodies were incorporated into their cadences. Thus the West wound up with Bone biting Mikah 9 and eventually Brotha Lynch Hung.
Somewhere in between those 2 coastal camps was Twista...who I respect as a pioneer more and more every day.
Then there's Gangsta Pat too, whose catalog I still need to explore further.
But the other thing was comparing Originators to Nigga What, Nigga Who...and it remains obvious to me that for their second version of Originators, Jay and Jaz OBVIOULY bit some West Coast flavor in order to inaccurately conject that they "originated" a modern style that didn't necesarily run through them in the first place.
While I think I know what you're driving at, I would suggest that any decline in NYC rap would be more a result of the copyists running down artistic blind alleys instead of coming up with some game-changing shit of their own.
I can see you using your hairbrush as a mic in front of the mirror tawnbout:
Uh, uh, uh
See me comin through hair done just a slinging my s**t
With something Gucci on clinging to my hips
Frontin with the Star Tech ringing in the whip
Icy ears, neck, fingers for years
Got the show wild with the toes out
Shit I don't fuck with no stingy ni**a
I rock Prada, Chanel, and Fendi ni**a
What I'mma do with your little blunts and Henney ni**a?
I'mma Major Coin with a pretty Bentley ni**a
Uh my ni**as will ride for me
You should see all the things they buy for me
Uh, it's obvious how I spend my time
Around ballers all day don't have to spend a dime
Callin' up room service when it's dinner time
Get my tan on in the tropics in the winter time ni**a, uh, uh, uh
location
Also, none of you have correctly guessed Jigga's biggest charting single yet.
My location is Chicago.
OBVIOUSLY
The people that liked RD were of a certain type. So not only did you have the problem of such a NYC-centric artist not really making much headway in markets still dominated by West Coast gangsta rap along with its Southern and Midwestern offshoots, but plenty of the dudes who were previously all over Gang Starr, Wu Tang, Nas, Black Moon, Mobb Deep, etc. jumped ship when it got to Biggie to certain extent and most certainly when it got to Jay-Z. So NYC still had its core Fat Joe-apologists and wannabe gambinos on lock, and with Biggie and Jay-Z it added swarms of girls and total cheeseballs to that lot. I don't see that as much of a victory, in that why was it so cool to turn away so many that had been into rap for the longest in favor of some dingbat mall patrons?
NYC fucked up the game. It's paying the price for it now. And if there is anyone to blame aside from Puffy, it's Jay-Z.
If we're talking own singles rather than guest spots I would be guessing it was Big Pimpin? That was probably his biggest hit in the UK anyway.
Orange juice style...
Yes how dare girls be into rap.
PS: Bitter heads = worst cheeseballs of all.
Now we're getting to the meat of the discussion: Jay-z ruined rap!
I didn't know they still made guys like you.
if we dismissed every great rap album that had a weak verse on a posse cut we'd have a lot less great rap albums.
Ain't No... was a big hit on radio and TV (pretty good for a b-side) and it was followed up by Feelin It which was HUGE, with a big-budget video and everything
Hell, they were even putting multiple album tracks from RD on mixtapes at the time
And they say the youth don't appreciate the album format anymore
this thread is giving me hiphopinfinity.com flashbacks. i dont even know if that means anything to people here.
appreciating jay-z = supporting the war?
At this point you're going to have a hard time convincing me you're not a cartoon character (or a 16 year old)
Y'all might as well fashion your ceasar's into mullets and start worshipping Nascar.