Wow, the ol' Jews are partly responsible for the holocaust argument...in a thread about Hamas vs. Israel. Meanwhile there are claims from some of the same people that they aren't anti-semitic and that this isn't an argument that is neccasarily prejudiced in that way.
Who said anything about Jews being partly responsible for the holocaust? I'm saying that Zionist ideology led some Jews to cooperate with the Nazi's and now the same ideology is being used as the justification for crimes against the Palestinian people. How many people have to be sacrificed to this idea before it can be called into question?
dude really? don't play that dumb, if you're making any allusion to the Nazi's in the 30's and 40's and what they are responsible for you are talking about the holocaust.
and aren't you the one who in an earlier post called those the Israelis attacked innocent? as if this was an unprovoked move. Since when does an injured or murdered person get overlooked? You are quick to point out the wrongs on one side but polish out the other side as if (as Dan mentioned) they are without blemish.
Kudos to the Jewish people in here for not taking some really fucked up bait. What I'm noticing is, for the most part, they are not defending Israel but responding to the angry hyperbolic words of those damning Israel.
I am Jewish. At least by blood and upbringing. You won't find me in sheul anytime soon, but maybe part of the reason is because it's hard to find a temple that isn't flying an Israeli flag.
really? Something tells me you're on the "I like to make shit up route" very rarely have I seen a synagogue flying any country's flag. I'm not going to argue you're ethnic & historical heritage but I will say that you're views show you're prejudices in a obvious way
This shit's not even worth any comment. Hamas didn't leave Israel any other choice with those continued rocket attacks. Now they're acting out their usual victim role... who's still buying this crap? Bringing in ground troups on a large scale and cleaning shit up for good is the right thing to do.[/b] Go Israel!
Unfortunately, "bringing in ground troops" will only mean even more civilians - men, women and children - will lose their lives. "Cleaning shit up" is a pretty disturbing choice of words in this context. F*ck Hamas, but F*ck Israel too for reacting the way they've done and for not respecting the human rights of Palestinians forced to live in the hellhole that is the Gaza Strip.
Sorry if I ofended you but I will continue to call Islamist terrorists like Hamas "shit that needs to be cleaned up for good".
It's clear that those Hamas rockets caused only relatively minor damage compared to what we have so far seen from the Israeli counter attack but still, it was Hamas who refused to continue the cease fire. You also have to considder the close relations of Hamas and Iran and the risk that some day soon, those rockets could be armed with some left-over chemical shit or worse. There is no way that Israel could have just accepted these attacks to continue.
There is also no doubt that Hamas willingly provoked this Israeli counter attack. That's what they wanted. they wanted images of killed civilians to fuel their propaganda. They might be surprised by the scale of this counter attack though. In the end, this is the only way Israel could have reacted. If you can't avoid to strike back, you have to strike back with enough force to make sure that the enemy won't get up again. Of course there will be civilan casualties but that's the nature of war. If you know your neighbor has a large gun collection, it's not a good idea to let people into your backyard throwing rocks and cherry bombs through your neighbors living room window while your kids are playing next to them.
What again is the difference between a Palestinian suicide bomber killing an Israeli child[/b] and an Israeli jet pilot dropping a bomb that kills a Palestinian child[/b]?
Maybe y'all are too caught up in the hype or whatever, but neither is a better scenario than the other.
Dude, you've got share some of this hype or whatever, because I want in on whatever crazy special insights you have that aren't available to the masses.
Let's say the suicide bomber and the military fighter pilot are doing their thing in the States or Canada. What's the their thing? Well, suicide bombers generally try to kill and maim as many people as they can, and by blowing themselves up in restaurants and buses they're hoping those people are civilians. The fighter pilot drops his bombs on strategically significant targets, which are usually not restaurants and buses but, at least in the case of the current imbroglio, military and governmental infrastructure.
Now, let's say both the suicide bomber and the fighter pilot kill a child as a result of their suicide bombing and fighter piloting. The cops are going to press charges. Then your legal system is going to consider the intent of the suicide bomber and the fighter pilot in killing the child. Whereas the suicide bomber explicitly intended to kill the child, the fighter pilot killed the child as a result of negligently dropping his bombs. In these parts, that's the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.
What's my point? Our legal systems consider a person's intent assessing culpability for a crime. Maybe you don't, but it's a pretty conventional approach to take. Since I believe like most people that ignoring intent leads to grievous injustice, I think you're totally wrong to suggesting the suicide bomber and fighter pilot are equivalent.
What again is the difference between a Palestinian suicide bomber killing an Israeli child[/b] and an Israeli jet pilot dropping a bomb that kills a Palestinian child[/b]?
Maybe y'all are too caught up in the hype or whatever, but neither is a better scenario than the other.
And to suggest that only one side change its policies/practices without even mentioning the prospect of the other side changing a single thing is nothing short of pathetic.
But Israel did change its policies. At the end of 2005, Ariel Sharon led the de-occupation of Gaza. What did he get for it? Nothing. This is an enormous political shift for Israel. Sharon rejected the Oslo process, yet he becomes the first premier of Israel to relinquish land in exchange for NADA, in exchange for Qassem rocket attacks. 20 years ago most Israelis did not support giving up any of the territory it won in 1967 and 1973. Today a big majority support that two state solution. So why has it not happened? Because Hamas rejects a two state solution, and since they were elected, we can say Palestinians reject a two state solution. The territory evacuated, de-occupied, is now the base for a rocket war on southern Israel. This political fact basically undermines the entire peace process, which promised land for peace. The Israelis just gave up land and got more war.
The last stat I read, 360-odd dead out of which 60 or so were civilians... so the count is about 300 soldiers killed to 0 and 60 civilians killed to 4.
With body counts around 300 to 4, the intent here is clearly genocide.
There's nothing gained in tossing around the word "genocide", especially when you don't know what it means.
Engaging with a dude who is talking about genocide in the gaza strip, Jews aiding the nazi's and synagogues flying flags is like eating soup with chopsticks
I think I'm done in this thread, I'll let the skewed viewing conspiracy theorists continue to play themselves out and get back to dealing with reality and sipping green tea
With body counts around 300 to 4, the intent here is clearly genocide.
You cannot justify Israels actions.
btw Israel has been using unmanned drones, no pilots.
The lack of nuance here is almost comical. I support Israel's right to exist, but like a lot of what Cosmo and others have said, I am very torn about their actions and strategy. I recognize that there's no easy solution here, and that a lot of concessions are needed on both sides. The degree of complete moral certitude I'm seeing from some of the posters in this thread is really disturbing and sad...
This shit's not even worth any comment. Hamas didn't leave Israel any other choice with those continued rocket attacks. Now they're acting out their usual victim role... who's still buying this crap? Bringing in ground troups on a large scale and cleaning shit up for good is the right thing to do.[/b] Go Israel!
Unfortunately, "bringing in ground troops" will only mean even more civilians - men, women and children - will lose their lives. "Cleaning shit up" is a pretty disturbing choice of words in this context. F*ck Hamas, but F*ck Israel too for reacting the way they've done and for not respecting the human rights of Palestinians forced to live in the hellhole that is the Gaza Strip.
Sorry if I ofended you but I will continue to call Islamist terrorists like Hamas "shit that needs to be cleaned up for good".
It's clear that those Hamas rockets caused only relatively minor damage compared to what we have so far seen from the Israeli counter attack but still, it was Hamas who refused to continue the cease fire. You also have to considder the close relations of Hamas and Iran and the risk that some day soon, those rockets could be armed with some left-over chemical shit or worse. There is no way that Israel could have just accepted these attacks to continue.
There is also no doubt that Hamas willingly provoked this Israeli counter attack. That's what they wanted. they wanted images of killed civilians to fuel their propaganda. They might be surprised by the scale of this counter attack though. In the end, this is the only way Israel could have reacted. If you can't avoid to strike back, you have to strike back with enough force to make sure that the enemy won't get up again. Of course there will be civilan casualties but that's the nature of war. If you know your neighbor has a large gun collection, it's not a good idea to let people into your backyard throwing rocks and cherry bombs through your neighbors living room window while your kids are playing next to them.
I won't bother to argue the rightness or wrongness of this analysis, but I will say it's laughably obtuse. Nobody in Israel thinks this is going to wipe out Hamas. Nobody. Read, for instance, Neve Gordon's piece from yesterday or the day before. It is impossible to wipe out Hamas like this. Impossible.
What again is the difference between a Palestinian suicide bomber killing an Israeli child[/b] and an Israeli jet pilot dropping a bomb that kills a Palestinian child[/b]?
Maybe y'all are too caught up in the hype or whatever, but neither is a better scenario than the other.
Dude, you've got share some of this hype or whatever, because I want in on whatever crazy special insights you have that aren't available to the masses.
Let's say the suicide bomber and the military fighter pilot are doing their thing in the States or Canada. What's the their thing? Well, suicide bombers generally try to kill and maim as many people as they can, and by blowing themselves up in restaurants and buses they're hoping those people are civilians. The fighter pilot drops his bombs on strategically significant targets, which are usually not restaurants and buses but, at least in the case of the current imbroglio, military and governmental infrastructure.
Now, let's say both the suicide bomber and the fighter pilot kill a child as a result of their suicide bombing and fighter piloting. The cops are going to press charges. Then your legal system is going to consider the intent of the suicide bomber and the fighter pilot in killing the child. Whereas the suicide bomber explicitly intended to kill the child, the fighter pilot killed the child as a result of negligently dropping his bombs. In these parts, that's the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.
What's my point? Our legal systems consider a person's intent assessing culpability for a crime. Maybe you don't, but it's a pretty conventional approach to take. Since I believe like most people that ignoring intent leads to grievous injustice, I think you're totally wrong to suggesting the suicide bomber and fighter pilot are equivalent.
What a tiresome argument... The Palestinians don't have fighter pilots. Israel doesn't need suicide bombers.
What a tiresome argument... The Palestinians don't have fighter pilots. Israel doesn't need suicide bombers.
There's a distinction between how a death occurs--i.e., by design or by accident--and whether a death is justified. I offered an opinion only on the former. You're welcome to speak to justification.
This thread is getting too muddled ...plaese help me understand your positions. From what I've read, there are a couple of dudes who do not believe in the ongoing viability of Israel as a nation and seem to advocate it's destruction - Artisan Butter, Thermos and z illa being the most obvious. Anyone else believe in the destruction of Israel?
And who here believes that the Palestinians are not entitled to some sort of nationhood? It seems to me that even the most hardcore anti-Hamas/pro-Israel dudes here support some form of free and independent Palestine.
Nobody in Israel thinks this is going to wipe out Hamas. Nobody.
From my news sources I read that the goal of this attack is to severely cripple or eradicate Hamas' ability to launch missile attacks into Israel. Of course what happens is horrible. War always is but war is what happens if you choose not to continue a cease fire and shoot rockets into another country.
This thread is getting too muddled ...plaese help me understand your positions. From what I've read, there are a couple of dudes who do not believe in the ongoing viability of Israel as a nation and seem to advocate it's destruction - Artisan Butter, Thermos and z illa being the most obvious. Anyone else believe in the destruction of Israel?
And who here believes that the Palestinians are not entitled to some sort of nationhood? It seems to me that even the most hardcore anti-Hamas/pro-Israel dudes here support some form of free and independent Palestine.
If you go back and read my posts you'll see I advocate no such thing. For better or worse, Israel is here to stay. I think Israel should pull back to its pre 67 borders, at least, dismantling all the settlements in the process. And I think it should grant its Arab citizens precisely the same rights it guarantees Jews.
Nobody in Israel thinks this is going to wipe out Hamas. Nobody.
From my news sources I read that the goal of this attack is to severely cripple or eradicate Hamas' ability to launch missile attacks into Israel. Of course what happens is horrible. War always is but war is what happens if you choose not to continue a cease fire and shoot rockets into another country.
Well, you should read more news sources then, including Israeli sources. This is a political maneuver as much as anything --see my above post about Labor attempting to appear tough because Netanyahu is leading in the polls.
This thread is getting too muddled ...plaese help me understand your positions. From what I've read, there are a couple of dudes who do not believe in the ongoing viability of Israel as a nation and seem to advocate it's destruction - Artisan Butter, Thermos and z illa being the most obvious. Anyone else believe in the destruction of Israel?
One of these dudes was here recently cheering on Anarchists in a different country.
For his sake let's hope reality never comes knocking on his front door.
This thread is a bad look from all sides. Antisemitism, sarcastic and condescending modderhatters, all in a day here.
This embarrassment of a thread is another step backwards in the history of Soul Strut.
Come on, it's no different to the last time we had this debate. People line up on either side and hurl opinions (of varying coherence) at each other with absolutely do chance of congruity. Someone mentions Zionism / the immediate kneejerk reaction is Anti-Semitism.
But yes, it is a shame that it can not be discussed with some form of civility, rather than resorting to character attacks and passive aggressive name calling.
This is ridiculous. I'm opposed to Zionism but not for the INSANE reason that Zionists were complicit in the Holocaust. That complicity pales in comparison to the complicity of, say, virtually the entire rest of the world. Moreover, the Transfer Agreement -which is what people generally mean when they talk about Zionist-Nazi collaboration- took place in 1933, years before the Holocaust.
"The greatest "idealist" Eichmann ever encountered among the Jews was Dr. Rudolf Kastner, with whom he negotiated during the Jewish deportations from Hungary and with whom he came to an agreement that he, Eichmann, would permit the "illegal" departure of a few thousand Jews to Palistine (the trains were in fact guarded by the German police) in exchange for "quiet and order" in the camps from which hundreds of thousands were shipped to Auschwitz. The few thousand saved by the agreement, prominent Jews and members of the Zionist youth organizations, were, in Eichmann's words "the best biological material."
Comments
dude really? don't play that dumb, if you're making any allusion to the Nazi's in the 30's and 40's and what they are responsible for you are talking about the holocaust.
and aren't you the one who in an earlier post called those the Israelis attacked innocent? as if this was an unprovoked move. Since when does an injured or murdered person get overlooked? You are quick to point out the wrongs on one side but polish out the other side as if (as Dan mentioned) they are without blemish.
really? Something tells me you're on the "I like to make shit up route" very rarely have I seen a synagogue flying any country's flag. I'm not going to argue you're ethnic & historical heritage but I will say that you're views show you're prejudices in a obvious way
PS Vitamin's here? Now it's a party!
absolutely, Cosmo dropping common sense all over this thread.
Problem is, Israelis have shown they aren't ready to change the status quo (see Y.Rabin RIP & settlements in disputed territory)
Sorry if I ofended you but I will continue to call Islamist terrorists like Hamas "shit that needs to be cleaned up for good".
It's clear that those Hamas rockets caused only relatively minor damage compared to what we have so far seen from the Israeli counter attack but still, it was Hamas who refused to continue the cease fire. You also have to considder the close relations of Hamas and Iran and the risk that some day soon, those rockets could be armed with some left-over chemical shit or worse. There is no way that Israel could have just accepted these attacks to continue.
There is also no doubt that Hamas willingly provoked this Israeli counter attack. That's what they wanted. they wanted images of killed civilians to fuel their propaganda. They might be surprised by the scale of this counter attack though. In the end, this is the only way Israel could have reacted. If you can't avoid to strike back, you have to strike back with enough force to make sure that the enemy won't get up again. Of course there will be civilan casualties but that's the nature of war. If you know your neighbor has a large gun collection, it's not a good idea to let people into your backyard throwing rocks and cherry bombs through your neighbors living room window while your kids are playing next to them.
Dude, you've got share some of this hype or whatever, because I want in on whatever crazy special insights you have that aren't available to the masses.
Let's say the suicide bomber and the military fighter pilot are doing their thing in the States or Canada. What's the their thing? Well, suicide bombers generally try to kill and maim as many people as they can, and by blowing themselves up in restaurants and buses they're hoping those people are civilians. The fighter pilot drops his bombs on strategically significant targets, which are usually not restaurants and buses but, at least in the case of the current imbroglio, military and governmental infrastructure.
Now, let's say both the suicide bomber and the fighter pilot kill a child as a result of their suicide bombing and fighter piloting. The cops are going to press charges. Then your legal system is going to consider the intent of the suicide bomber and the fighter pilot in killing the child. Whereas the suicide bomber explicitly intended to kill the child, the fighter pilot killed the child as a result of negligently dropping his bombs. In these parts, that's the difference between manslaughter and first degree murder.
What's my point? Our legal systems consider a person's intent assessing culpability for a crime. Maybe you don't, but it's a pretty conventional approach to take. Since I believe like most people that ignoring intent leads to grievous injustice, I think you're totally wrong to suggesting the suicide bomber and fighter pilot are equivalent.
You cannot justify Israels actions.
btw Israel has been using unmanned drones, no pilots.
But Israel did change its policies. At the end of 2005, Ariel Sharon led the de-occupation of Gaza. What did he get for it? Nothing. This is an enormous political shift for Israel. Sharon rejected the Oslo process, yet he becomes the first premier of Israel to relinquish land in exchange for NADA, in exchange for Qassem rocket attacks. 20 years ago most Israelis did not support giving up any of the territory it won in 1967 and 1973. Today a big majority support that two state solution. So why has it not happened? Because Hamas rejects a two state solution, and since they were elected, we can say Palestinians reject a two state solution. The territory evacuated, de-occupied, is now the base for a rocket war on southern Israel. This political fact basically undermines the entire peace process, which promised land for peace. The Israelis just gave up land and got more war.
There's nothing gained in tossing around the word "genocide", especially when you don't know what it means.
Not a fun day at the arcade, but not genocide.
This kind of hyperbole doesn't serve anyone...
Engaging with a dude who is talking about genocide in the gaza strip, Jews aiding the nazi's and synagogues flying flags is like eating soup with chopsticks
I think I'm done in this thread, I'll let the skewed viewing conspiracy theorists continue to play themselves out and get back to dealing with reality and sipping green tea
The lack of nuance here is almost comical. I support Israel's right to exist, but like a lot of what Cosmo and others have said, I am very torn about their actions and strategy. I recognize that there's no easy solution here, and that a lot of concessions are needed on both sides. The degree of complete moral certitude I'm seeing from some of the posters in this thread is really disturbing and sad...
I won't bother to argue the rightness or wrongness of this analysis, but I will say it's laughably obtuse. Nobody in Israel thinks this is going to wipe out Hamas. Nobody. Read, for instance, Neve Gordon's piece from yesterday or the day before. It is impossible to wipe out Hamas like this. Impossible.
What a tiresome argument... The Palestinians don't have fighter pilots. Israel doesn't need suicide bombers.
There's a distinction between how a death occurs--i.e., by design or by accident--and whether a death is justified. I offered an opinion only on the former. You're welcome to speak to justification.
And who here believes that the Palestinians are not entitled to some sort of nationhood? It seems to me that even the most hardcore anti-Hamas/pro-Israel dudes here support some form of free and independent Palestine.
From my news sources I read that the goal of this attack is to severely cripple or eradicate Hamas' ability to launch missile attacks into Israel. Of course what happens is horrible. War always is but war is what happens if you choose not to continue a cease fire and shoot rockets into another country.
If you go back and read my posts you'll see I advocate no such thing. For better or worse, Israel is here to stay. I think Israel should pull back to its pre 67 borders, at least, dismantling all the settlements in the process. And I think it should grant its Arab citizens precisely the same rights it guarantees Jews.
Well, you should read more news sources then, including Israeli sources. This is a political maneuver as much as anything --see my above post about Labor attempting to appear tough because Netanyahu is leading in the polls.
One of these dudes was here recently cheering on Anarchists in a different country.
For his sake let's hope reality never comes knocking on his front door.
Really??
With all the swill in this thread THAT warrants a RAMP.
This embarrassment of a thread is another step backwards in the history of Soul Strut.
Get back at me when there's an intelligent discussion going on.
everybody loves the sunshine!
Nothing at all......probably some auto-poaster ish.
anyway, the way I see it Israel is just helping Hamas achieve their goal - martyrdom
You seem to be calling for the destruction of Soul Strut. But what is your position exactly?
Come on, it's no different to the last time we had this debate.
People line up on either side and hurl opinions (of varying coherence) at each other with absolutely do chance of congruity. Someone mentions Zionism / the immediate kneejerk reaction is Anti-Semitism.
But yes, it is a shame that it can not be discussed with some form of civility, rather than resorting to character attacks and passive aggressive name calling.
"The greatest "idealist" Eichmann ever encountered among the Jews was Dr. Rudolf Kastner, with whom he negotiated during the Jewish deportations from Hungary and with whom he came to an agreement that he, Eichmann, would permit the "illegal" departure of a few thousand Jews to Palistine (the trains were in fact guarded by the German police) in exchange for "quiet and order" in the camps from which hundreds of thousands were shipped to Auschwitz. The few thousand saved by the agreement, prominent Jews and members of the Zionist youth organizations, were, in Eichmann's words "the best biological material."
- page 42, Eichmann In Jerusalem by Hannah Arendt