I have a hard time believing that a rap album - any rap album - could be considered the defining album of Generation X. I mean, these are some of my favorite albums, but it seems unlikely to me that SOC could be - above all other albums - the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else. America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind.
Hold the phone, who ever said that an album with SPS had to be "the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else."? Plugging into or predicting zeitgeist is not the same as "resonating the most". It's not a popularity contest even though popularity has a lot to do with it.
Moreover, I'm not sure how one is supposed to take this statement: "America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind" considering that the history of popular music in America would be meaningless without the influence and impact of Black music. In fact, without Black music, the entire British Invasion wouldn't have come to exist.
BTW: since when did hip-hop, the most far-ranging and influential new music style of the last quarter century become a niche genre? I mean, I know hip-hop is dead and all but how did that death certificate get back-dated to birth?
I have a hard time believing that a rap album - any rap album - could be considered the defining album of Generation X. I mean, these are some of my favorite albums, but it seems unlikely to me that SOC could be - above all other albums - the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else. America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind.
Hold the phone, who ever said that an album with SPS had to be "the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else."? Plugging into or predicting zeitgeist is not the same as "resonating the most". It's not a popularity contest even though popularity has a lot to do with it.
Apologies for not being more precise in what I was trying to convey. What I meant to say is that SPLHCB came to define a period of music history that extended far beyond the music. I won't dispute the social importance of NWA or the undeniable impact that it had on the development of rap and pop culture, but it has never been, in my ADMITTEDLY limited experience, as ubiquitous or iconic as SPLHCB seems to be.
Moreover, I'm not sure how one is supposed to take this statement: "America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind" considering that the history of popular music in America would be meaningless without the influence and impact of Black music. In fact, without Black music, the entire British Invasion wouldn't have come to exist.
Perhaps I did not express myself clearly - did I mention my head hurts? - but this strikes me as awfully condescending. Yes, I am acutely aware of everything you just stated.
If you were going to give rock & roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry' John Lennon
Moreover, it is precisely the fact that the influence of black music has been historically overlooked that makes me question the possibility of a rap album ever claiming the title in question. Do you really think a notion-wide poll would reveal SOC as the album most Gen X-ers feel is analogous to SPLHCB? Then again, perhaps the point of this exercise is to let the experts decide and leave the public out of it.
BTW: since when did hip-hop, the most far-ranging and influential new music style of the last quarter century become a niche genre? I mean, I know hip-hop is dead and all but how did that death certificate get back-dated to birth?
Is this in reference to something I said? I certainly would never assert that position myself.
Somebody has probably already asked this question already, but is it even possible to come up with a satisfactory answer to this question. I have to imagine that the majority of Americans associate the 60s almost exclusively with rock music (with a good portion also accommodating a bit of R&B/Soul). How about the defining genre of the 70s? Was it (classic) rock? Soul? Disco? Punk? And the 80s? Rock? Soul? Metal? Electro? New wave? HipHop? I don't have any fu*king clue, really.
Is the Sergeant Pepper of Generation X Sergeant Pepper?
I wasn't trying to come off as condescending so if it reads that way, it wasn't intended.
I would again challenge the idea that what we're talking about here is a "national poll" situation. What makes "Sgt. Pepper" the album it has become has to do with our impression of its importance and influence. Sure, selling 11.7 million albums helps but popularity, by itself, doesn't really mean much. I mean, the Eagles have one of the best selling albums of all time...but would anyone argue "Greatest Hits" is meaningful on a cultural/social level?
If you're looking for a touchstone album that doubles as a cultural phenom, then I suppose "Thriller" would end up finding the most wide-ranging agreement but that, by itself, wouldn't qualify it for SPS since, to me, "Thriller" doesn't really speak what's happening in society at that moment, particularly amongst Gen X. "SOC" or "Nevermind" both come a lot closer to that mark AND were popular.
I have a hard time believing that a rap album - any rap album - could be considered the defining album of Generation X. I mean, these are some of my favorite albums, but it seems unlikely to me that SOC could be - above all other albums - the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else. America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind.
Hold the phone, who ever said that an album with SPS had to be "the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else."? Plugging into or predicting zeitgeist is not the same as "resonating the most". It's not a popularity contest even though popularity has a lot to do with it.
Apologies for not being more precise in what I was trying to convey. What I meant to say is that SPLHCB came to define a period of music history that extended far beyond the music. I won't dispute the social importance of NWA or the undeniable impact that it had on the development of rap and pop culture, but it has never been, in my ADMITTEDLY limited experience, as ubiquitous or iconic as SPLHCB seems to be.
Moreover, I'm not sure how one is supposed to take this statement: "America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind" considering that the history of popular music in America would be meaningless without the influence and impact of Black music. In fact, without Black music, the entire British Invasion wouldn't have come to exist.
Perhaps I did not express myself clearly - did I mention my head hurts? - but this strikes me as awfully condescending. Yes, I am acutely aware of everything you just stated.
If you were going to give rock & roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry' John Lennon
Moreover, it is precisely the fact that the influence of black music has been historically overlooked that makes me question the possibility of a rap album ever claiming the title in question. Do you really think a notion-wide poll would reveal SOC as the album most Gen X-ers feel is analogous to SPLHCB? Then again, perhaps the point of this exercise is to let the experts decide and leave the public out of it.
BTW: since when did hip-hop, the most far-ranging and influential new music style of the last quarter century become a niche genre? I mean, I know hip-hop is dead and all but how did that death certificate get back-dated to birth?
Is this in reference to something I said? I certainly would never assert that position myself.
I would again challenge the idea that what we're talking about here is a "national poll" situation. What makes "Sgt. Pepper" the album it has become has to do with our impression of its importance and influence. Sure, selling 11.7 million albums helps but popularity, by itself, doesn't really mean much. I mean, the Eagles have one of the best selling albums of all time...but would anyone argue "Greatest Hits" is meaningful on a cultural/social level?
I'm absolutely with you on this, popularity certainly isn't the only variable to consider. What I'm asking, though, is who you are referring to when you say "our impression of its importance and influence"? Whose impressions matter in this endeavor? Is it a particular population? Or are we trying simply to select an album that fits a set of criteria?
If you're looking for a touchstone album that doubles as a cultural phenom, then I suppose "Thriller" would end up finding the most wide-ranging agreement but that, by itself, wouldn't qualify it for SPS since, to me, "Thriller" doesn't really speak what's happening in society at that moment, particularly amongst Gen X. "SOC" or "Nevermind" both come a lot closer to that mark AND were popular.
I'm mostly in agreement with this as well. When I saw the title of this thread, the first album I thought of was Nevermind, and that's not even an album I've listened to a great deal. Thriller definitely approached SP in terms of it's pervasiveness, but I've never had the impression that it amounted, ultimately, to anything more than a really excellent pop album.
This all reminds me of a very relevant conversation I had with a well known DJ from my hometown of Grand Rapids. He'd been a big part of the emerging West Michigan garage scene, helped put Al Greene on, and spent 30+ years on air. I don't recall how the subject came up, but he expressed the opinion that recent generations have lacked specifically these types of iconic albums. He laughed at my friend when he suggested Oasis, and paused briefly to consider the mention of Nirvana by the fourth member of our party, before dismissing them as well. By his account, no single group or album has embodied the spirit of a generation since the Beatles.
His ebay handle is arisdisc, btw. He has like 40,000 45s he's selling off bit by bit.
This all reminds me of a very relevant conversation I had with a well known DJ from my hometown of Grand Rapids. He'd been a big part of the emerging West Michigan garage scene, helped put Al Greene on, and spent 30+ years on air. I don't recall how the subject came up, but he expressed the opinion that recent generations have lacked specifically these types of iconic albums. He laughed at my friend when he suggested Oasis, and paused briefly to consider the mention of Nirvana by the fourth member of our party, before dismissing them as well. By his account, no single group or album has embodied the spirit of a generation since the Beatles.
This all reminds me of a very relevant conversation I had with a well known DJ from my hometown of Grand Rapids. He'd been a big part of the emerging West Michigan garage scene, helped put Al Greene on, and spent 30+ years on air. I don't recall how the subject came up, but he expressed the opinion that recent generations have lacked specifically these types of iconic albums. He laughed at my friend when he suggested Oasis, and paused briefly to consider the mention of Nirvana by the fourth member of our party, before dismissing them as well. By his account, no single group or album has embodied the spirit of a generation since the Beatles.
Baby boomer historical revisionism.
Maybe, maybe not. As someone who both experienced Beatlemania first-hand, and fielded endless on-air requests for Lithium, I wouldn't dismiss his perspective out of hand. I mean, this is a dude who told me I was wasting my time collecting records (while inside his temperature-controlled LP room!!!), so he can't be totally full of shit.
I was being slightly facetious but the point being: I wouldn't doubt that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus but it's hard to imagine ANY group or artist being so iconic as to speak for the far-ranging diversity of a society like America's.
So I don't think you're going to find a single album that could be meaningful to the majority of Americans for Gen X...but I also don't think you could find such an album for baby boomers. It's only in hindsight that these things look to be "real" but it involves forgetting as much as it involves remembering.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Hold the press, we've got late entries...
In the books as what kicked in alternative rock, Mountain Song is the anthem, Jane Says is Shambhala with tats and a one-hitter, Lollapalooza-related, etc.
Rock meets rap, Give It Away Give It Away Now, Under the Bridge is Shambhala with tats and a one-hitter, Rick Rubin, etc.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Well, hell, if we're gonna take it there:
I only left it out because it's a comp and equally tied to the Baby Busters before us.
Another album that bridges the 2 generations like that is Violent Femmes.
The Busters were actually more drunk and high than we were.
Which is why Back in Black is probably their Sgt. Pepper's.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
And yeah, this one needs to be looked at further as well.
Not as fun to champion as Straight Outta Compton, but Joshua Tree just may fit the criteria better than anything...oops, also equally tied to Baby Busters.
Anyhow, the thing is, it's not even about Sgt. Pepper being a great album musically... I think at this point it is more of a pop culture benchmark than anything. My parents were hippie teens when it came out and it was a big deal... but my girlfriend's dad who is nearly a generation older, from Kansas, and probably the most straight laced guy you could ever meet told me he bought it when it came out... and even my grandmother who grew up listening to dirt and sticks and walked 10 miles uphill in the snow to and from school can have a conversation about it. She didn't own it or really even like the Beatles, but she knows songs from it and seems to basically understand it's place in the grand scheme of things. Can this be said of any of the gen X albums brought up in this thread? I mean, you can find nods to sgt. pepper by contemporaries of the Beatles all over the board in nearly any genre of music at the time of it's release and for years after. Wake me when this happens for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And please don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is not another album as good or better from the 80's or 90's... it's just that popular culture has since become too fragmented to allow for another situation like this.
Crink hit it on the head, the thing about Sgt Peppers was that almost everyone who has had any exposure to pop music knows about it, and knew about it when it came out. I would argue that there are very few people in the western world (not to mention the rest of the globe) who don't recognize songs like "With a Little Help from My Friends" or "When I'm 64". A Gen X equivalent would need the same sort of recognition, and "Stright Outta Compton" or "It Takes A Nation" (as much as I love them to death) just don't cut it in that way.
Remember back in the days, when niggaz had waves Gazelle shades, and corn braids Pitchin pennies, honies had the high top jellies Shootin skelly, motherfuckers was all friendly Loungin at the barbeques, drinkin brews With the neighborhood crews, hangin on the avenues Turn your pagers, to nineteen ninety three Niggaz is gettin smoked g, believe me Talk slick, you get your neck slit quick Cause real street niggaz aint havin that shit Totin techs for rep, smokin blunts in the project Hallways, shootin dice all day Wait for niggaz to step up on some fightin shit We get hype and shit and start lifin shit So step away with your fist fight ways Motherfucker this aint back in the days, but you dont hear me though
No more cocoa leave-io, one two three One two three, all of this to me, is a mystery I hear you motherfuckers talk about it But I stay seein bodies with the motherfuckin chalk around it And Im down with the shit too For the stupid motherfuckers wanna try to use kung-fu Instead of a mac-10 he tried scrappin Slugs in his back and, thats what the fuck happens When you sleep on the street Little motherfuckers with heat, want ta leave a nigga six feet deep And we comin to the wake To make sure the cryin and commotion aint a motherfuckin fake Back in the days, our parents used to take care of us Look at em now, they even fuckin scared of us[/b] Callin the city for help because they cant maintain Damn, shit done changed
If I wasnt in the rap game Id probably have a key knee deep in the crack game Because the streets is a short stop Either youre slingin crack rock or you got a wicked jumpshot Shit, its hard being young from the slums Eatin five cent gums not knowin where your meals comin from And now the shits gettin crazier and major Kids younger than me, they got the sky grand pagers Goin outta town, blowin up Six months later all the dead bodies showin up It make me wanna grab the nine and the shottie But I gotta go identify the body Damn, what happened to the summertime cookouts? Everytime I turn around a nigga gettin took out Shit, my momma got cancer in her breast Dont ask me why Im motherfuckin stressed, things done changed
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
I'd say it'd be...
I don't really ride for it that hard, but it seemed to get plenty of shine from people I didn't expect to dig it.
I fronted hard on Radiohead for a long time, even after this came out. For years, I dismissed them as standard-issue indie-rock miserablists. Then a couple of friends of mine, both of whom are at least ten years younger than me, sat me down one evening, skinned one up, and made me listen to "OK Computer" front-to-back. That's when I "got" it. I wouldn't say I'm an especially big fan even now, but they've become one of the few acts within the indie-rock idiom whose new material I'm always eager to hear. I think "OK Computer" is pretty much as good as indie-rock got in the 90's, and I absolutely understand both why it's so highly regarded and how it's managed to have an appeal beyond what most would think to be its most obvious audience.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
That's not a 5 pager, it's a one poster...Madonna.
On a purely musical level, Madonna has never, ever changed the game one iota, and never will for as long as she has a hole in her arse. She's had an immense influence on popular culture in a lot of other ways, but she's never really created those kind of waves with her music alone. What she's good at - probably better than anyone else, in fact - is creating the impression that she's cutting-edge by employing ideas that are non-mainstream (at the time), and bringing them into the mainstream through her creative co-signage of those ideas. This is a unique talent in itself, and Madonna, whilst not always good, is always interesting. To me at least. But I doubt you could even get a roomful of Madonna fans even to agree on what her best album is, much less her most influential.
Someone further back mentioned that you need hit singles to affect the zeitgeist, but that's only true up to a point. It may be to do with the greater significance placed upon albums over singles by music critics, but I don't think there's anybody since Elvis who managed to change the game despite being primarily a singles artist - I mean, would you choose a regular Elvis album over a well-curated hits compilation, when so much of his significance is linked to a fistful of early singles? No doubt a few landmark acts have managed to be both great albums and singles artists, but are there any that have made an undeniable musical impact through 45's alone?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
I'd say it'd be...
I don't really ride for it that hard, but it seemed to get plenty of shine from people I didn't expect to dig it.
I fronted hard on Radiohead for a long time, even after this came out. For years, I dismissed them as standard-issue indie-rock miserablists. Then a couple of friends of mine, both of whom are at least ten years younger than me, sat me down one evening, skinned one up, and made me listen to "OK Computer" front-to-back. That's when I "got" it. I wouldn't say I'm an especially big fan even now, but they've become one of the few acts within the indie-rock idiom whose new material I'm always eager to hear. I think "OK Computer" is pretty much as good as indie-rock got in the 90's, and I absolutely understand both why it's so highly regarded and how it's managed to have an appeal beyond what most would think to be its most obvious audience.
Radiohead surely has its worth, but it's full on some Generation Y[/b] whiny if anything.
I don't really ride for it that hard, but it seemed to get plenty of shine from people I didn't expect to dig it.
I fronted hard on Radiohead for a long time, even after this came out. For years, I dismissed them as standard-issue indie-rock miserablists. Then a couple of friends of mine, both of whom are at least ten years younger than me, sat me down one evening, skinned one up, and made me listen to "OK Computer" front-to-back. That's when I "got" it. I wouldn't say I'm an especially big fan even now, but they've become one of the few acts within the indie-rock idiom whose new material I'm always eager to hear. I think "OK Computer" is pretty much as good as indie-rock got in the 90's, and I absolutely understand both why it's so highly regarded and how it's managed to have an appeal beyond what most would think to be its most obvious audience.
I guess it matches up with Sgt pepper in that it became a critical and commercial success, changed the game as far as rock music was concerned, and also cemented the group as media darlings despite the fact that it was actually an inferior album as far as songs go to a previous release by the group and also led to further experimentation with diminishing results. I would question whether it came out too late to be the sound of Generation X though.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
That's not a 5 pager, it's a one poster...Madonna.
On a purely musical level, Madonna has never, ever changed the game one iota, and never will for as long as she has a hole in her arse. She's had an immense influence on popular culture in a lot of other ways, but she's never really created those kind of waves with her music alone. What she's good at - probably better than anyone else, in fact - is creating the impression that she's cutting-edge by employing ideas that are non-mainstream (at the time), and bringing them into the mainstream through her creative co-signage of those ideas. This is a unique talent in itself, and Madonna, whilst not always good, is always interesting. To me at least. But I doubt you could even get a roomful of Madonna fans even to agree on what her best album is, much less her most influential.
You're overthinking it. It's Like a Virgin as far as impact, by a longshot. Musically, she's a tastemaker...which pretty much did change the game leading into the dj-driven era. You described it yourself above.
"Nevermind" and "Straight Outta Compton" go neck and neck.
What do you think about accessibility? As grating as the sound might be to some, Nevermind has played to the masses in book, record, clothing stores but I'm not sure I could say the same for Straight Outta Compton on the lyrics alone.
What does accessibility have to do with it though? You think half of the lyrics on "Sgt. Pepper" made sense to anyone?
I refer back to Harvey's comments above. Not only was "SOC" a definitive album within hip-hop - far more of a powerful cultural force in Gen X than grunge ever was - but its crossover popularity was massive. "SOC" was a far more popular album among non-Blacks than "Nevermind" was among non-Whites.
Think of it another way: how many groups these days could be said to be post-NWA vs. post-Nirvana?
Put it one more way: I could drop "Fuck the Police" right now and even people who had never heard it before could be .
I'd get for "Smells Like Teen Spirit."
"Nevermind" was a massive album. I won't deny its relevance. But if you're talking about ripples in a pond or whatever - "SOC" goes much further. And I'd argue that, if you're talking about Gen X --> Y, then "The Chronic" would be key album in that respect, though for different aesthetic reasons.
I agree with some of this. I would say that accessibility has something to do with it - if it's being played in the mainstream arena more, even something like bands covering the songs. If we're talking about understanding what it's all about - along the same lines as what the hell do the lyrics to Lucy in the Sky mean - how many white suburban kids loving SOC understand/relate to where it was coming from?
Someone has already said this I'm sure, but not enough time has passed. Sgt Pepper was 40 yrs ago, the new contenders are at the most 20yrs ago.
Anyway...I think I've talked this out all I could!
Personally, I give it to SOC. Other than coming across it on the radio, I can't think of the last time I listened to Nevermind or even felt to.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,917 Posts
That's not a 5 pager, it's a one poster...Madonna.
On a purely musical level, Madonna has never, ever changed the game one iota, and never will for as long as she has a hole in her arse. She's had an immense influence on popular culture in a lot of other ways, but she's never really created those kind of waves with her music alone. What she's good at - probably better than anyone else, in fact - is creating the impression that she's cutting-edge by employing ideas that are non-mainstream (at the time), and bringing them into the mainstream through her creative co-signage of those ideas. This is a unique talent in itself, and Madonna, whilst not always good, is always interesting. To me at least. But I doubt you could even get a roomful of Madonna fans even to agree on what her best album is, much less her most influential.
You're overthinking it. It's Like a Virgin as far as impact, by a longshot. Musically, she's a tastemaker...which pretty much did change the game leading into the dj-driven era. You described it yourself above.
Interesting point as far as her "tastemaker" status is concerned, but not one I entirely agree with. Personally, I feel she's often been fractionally behind the pace with many musical trends (European techno-disco, trance, ambient pop, the voguing thing), yet as far as mainstream tastes go, she's often way ahead, which is probably all that matters as far as her audience is concerned. It's harder to measure her musical significance when so much of her work is dependent on the input of her collaborators, especially when the quality of that work varies wildly, depending on who those collaborators are.
I plead guilty to the "over-thinking" charge, though - that's how I do, I'm afraid.
Comments
Hold the phone, who ever said that an album with SPS had to be "the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else."? Plugging into or predicting zeitgeist is not the same as "resonating the most". It's not a popularity contest even though popularity has a lot to do with it.
Moreover, I'm not sure how one is supposed to take this statement: "America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind" considering that the history of popular music in America would be meaningless without the influence and impact of Black music. In fact, without Black music, the entire British Invasion wouldn't have come to exist.
BTW: since when did hip-hop, the most far-ranging and influential new music style of the last quarter century become a niche genre? I mean, I know hip-hop is dead and all but how did that death certificate get back-dated to birth?
Apologies for not being more precise in what I was trying to convey. What I meant to say is that SPLHCB came to define a period of music history that extended far beyond the music. I won't dispute the social importance of NWA or the undeniable impact that it had on the development of rap and pop culture, but it has never been, in my ADMITTEDLY limited experience, as ubiquitous or iconic as SPLHCB seems to be.
Perhaps I did not express myself clearly - did I mention my head hurts? - but this strikes me as awfully condescending. Yes, I am acutely aware of everything you just stated.
If you were going to give rock & roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry' John Lennon
Moreover, it is precisely the fact that the influence of black music has been historically overlooked that makes me question the possibility of a rap album ever claiming the title in question. Do you really think a notion-wide poll would reveal SOC as the album most Gen X-ers feel is analogous to SPLHCB? Then again, perhaps the point of this exercise is to let the experts decide and leave the public out of it.
Is this in reference to something I said? I certainly would never assert that position myself.
Is the Sergeant Pepper of Generation X Sergeant Pepper?
I would again challenge the idea that what we're talking about here is a "national poll" situation. What makes "Sgt. Pepper" the album it has become has to do with our impression of its importance and influence. Sure, selling 11.7 million albums helps but popularity, by itself, doesn't really mean much. I mean, the Eagles have one of the best selling albums of all time...but would anyone argue "Greatest Hits" is meaningful on a cultural/social level?
If you're looking for a touchstone album that doubles as a cultural phenom, then I suppose "Thriller" would end up finding the most wide-ranging agreement but that, by itself, wouldn't qualify it for SPS since, to me, "Thriller" doesn't really speak what's happening in society at that moment, particularly amongst Gen X. "SOC" or "Nevermind" both come a lot closer to that mark AND were popular.
I'm absolutely with you on this, popularity certainly isn't the only variable to consider. What I'm asking, though, is who you are referring to when you say "our impression of its importance and influence"? Whose impressions matter in this endeavor? Is it a particular population? Or are we trying simply to select an album that fits a set of criteria?
I'm mostly in agreement with this as well. When I saw the title of this thread, the first album I thought of was Nevermind, and that's not even an album I've listened to a great deal. Thriller definitely approached SP in terms of it's pervasiveness, but I've never had the impression that it amounted, ultimately, to anything more than a really excellent pop album.
This all reminds me of a very relevant conversation I had with a well known DJ from my hometown of Grand Rapids. He'd been a big part of the emerging West Michigan garage scene, helped put Al Greene on, and spent 30+ years on air. I don't recall how the subject came up, but he expressed the opinion that recent generations have lacked specifically these types of iconic albums.
He laughed at my friend when he suggested Oasis, and paused briefly to consider the mention of Nirvana by the fourth member of our party, before dismissing them as well. By his account, no single group or album has embodied the spirit of a generation since the Beatles.
His ebay handle is arisdisc, btw. He has like 40,000 45s he's selling off bit by bit.
Baby boomer historical revisionism.
Maybe, maybe not. As someone who both experienced Beatlemania first-hand, and fielded endless on-air requests for Lithium, I wouldn't dismiss his perspective out of hand. I mean, this is a dude who told me I was wasting my time collecting records (while inside his temperature-controlled LP room!!!), so he can't be totally full of shit.
So I don't think you're going to find a single album that could be meaningful to the majority of Americans for Gen X...but I also don't think you could find such an album for baby boomers. It's only in hindsight that these things look to be "real" but it involves forgetting as much as it involves remembering.
In the books as what kicked in alternative rock, Mountain Song is the anthem, Jane Says is Shambhala with tats and a one-hitter, Lollapalooza-related, etc.
Rock meets rap, Give It Away Give It Away Now, Under the Bridge is Shambhala with tats and a one-hitter, Rick Rubin, etc.
And then there's these...
I only left it out because it's a comp and equally tied to the Baby Busters before us.
Another album that bridges the 2 generations like that is Violent Femmes.
The Busters were actually more drunk and high than we were.
Which is why Back in Black is probably their Sgt. Pepper's.
And yeah, this one needs to be looked at further as well.
Not as fun to champion as Straight Outta Compton, but Joshua Tree just may fit the criteria better than anything...oops, also equally tied to Baby Busters.
Back to Nevermind...there's no avoiding it.
I went into convulsions somewhere on page 4.
Anyhow, the thing is, it's not even about Sgt. Pepper being a great album musically... I think at this point it is more of a pop culture benchmark than anything. My parents were hippie teens when it came out and it was a big deal... but my girlfriend's dad who is nearly a generation older, from Kansas, and probably the most straight laced guy you could ever meet told me he bought it when it came out... and even my grandmother who grew up listening to dirt and sticks and walked 10 miles uphill in the snow to and from school can have a conversation about it. She didn't own it or really even like the Beatles, but she knows songs from it and seems to basically understand it's place in the grand scheme of things. Can this be said of any of the gen X albums brought up in this thread? I mean, you can find nods to sgt. pepper by contemporaries of the Beatles all over the board in nearly any genre of music at the time of it's release and for years after. Wake me when this happens for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And please don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is not another album as good or better from the 80's or 90's... it's just that popular culture has since become too fragmented to allow for another situation like this.
Nevermind.
Gazelle shades, and corn braids
Pitchin pennies, honies had the high top jellies
Shootin skelly, motherfuckers was all friendly
Loungin at the barbeques, drinkin brews
With the neighborhood crews, hangin on the avenues
Turn your pagers, to nineteen ninety three
Niggaz is gettin smoked g, believe me
Talk slick, you get your neck slit quick
Cause real street niggaz aint havin that shit
Totin techs for rep, smokin blunts in the project
Hallways, shootin dice all day
Wait for niggaz to step up on some fightin shit
We get hype and shit and start lifin shit
So step away with your fist fight ways
Motherfucker this aint back in the days, but you dont hear me though
No more cocoa leave-io, one two three
One two three, all of this to me, is a mystery
I hear you motherfuckers talk about it
But I stay seein bodies with the motherfuckin chalk around it
And Im down with the shit too
For the stupid motherfuckers wanna try to use kung-fu
Instead of a mac-10 he tried scrappin
Slugs in his back and, thats what the fuck happens
When you sleep on the street
Little motherfuckers with heat, want ta leave a nigga six feet deep
And we comin to the wake
To make sure the cryin and commotion aint a motherfuckin fake
Back in the days, our parents used to take care of us
Look at em now, they even fuckin scared of us[/b]
Callin the city for help because they cant maintain
Damn, shit done changed
If I wasnt in the rap game
Id probably have a key knee deep in the crack game
Because the streets is a short stop
Either youre slingin crack rock or you got a wicked jumpshot
Shit, its hard being young from the slums
Eatin five cent gums not knowin where your meals comin from
And now the shits gettin crazier and major
Kids younger than me, they got the sky grand pagers
Goin outta town, blowin up
Six months later all the dead bodies showin up
It make me wanna grab the nine and the shottie
But I gotta go identify the body
Damn, what happened to the summertime cookouts?
Everytime I turn around a nigga gettin took out
Shit, my momma got cancer in her breast
Dont ask me why Im motherfuckin stressed, things done changed
I fronted hard on Radiohead for a long time, even after this came out. For years, I dismissed them as standard-issue indie-rock miserablists. Then a couple of friends of mine, both of whom are at least ten years younger than me, sat me down one evening, skinned one up, and made me listen to "OK Computer" front-to-back. That's when I "got" it. I wouldn't say I'm an especially big fan even now, but they've become one of the few acts within the indie-rock idiom whose new material I'm always eager to hear. I think "OK Computer" is pretty much as good as indie-rock got in the 90's, and I absolutely understand both why it's so highly regarded and how it's managed to have an appeal beyond what most would think to be its most obvious audience.
On a purely musical level, Madonna has never, ever changed the game one iota, and never will for as long as she has a hole in her arse. She's had an immense influence on popular culture in a lot of other ways, but she's never really created those kind of waves with her music alone. What she's good at - probably better than anyone else, in fact - is creating the impression that she's cutting-edge by employing ideas that are non-mainstream (at the time), and bringing them into the mainstream through her creative co-signage of those ideas. This is a unique talent in itself, and Madonna, whilst not always good, is always interesting. To me at least. But I doubt you could even get a roomful of Madonna fans even to agree on what her best album is, much less her most influential.
Someone further back mentioned that you need hit singles to affect the zeitgeist, but that's only true up to a point. It may be to do with the greater significance placed upon albums over singles by music critics, but I don't think there's anybody since Elvis who managed to change the game despite being primarily a singles artist - I mean, would you choose a regular Elvis album over a well-curated hits compilation, when so much of his significance is linked to a fistful of early singles? No doubt a few landmark acts have managed to be both great albums and singles artists, but are there any that have made an undeniable musical impact through 45's alone?
Who's this blapolina?
Radiohead surely has its worth, but it's full on some Generation Y[/b] whiny if anything.
I guess it matches up with Sgt pepper in that it became a critical and commercial success, changed the game as far as rock music was concerned, and also cemented the group as media darlings despite the fact that it was actually an inferior album as far as songs go to a previous release by the group and also led to further experimentation with diminishing results. I would question whether it came out too late to be the sound of Generation X though.
You're overthinking it. It's Like a Virgin as far as impact, by a longshot. Musically, she's a tastemaker...which pretty much did change the game leading into the dj-driven era. You described it yourself above.
I agree with some of this. I would say that accessibility has something to do with it - if it's being played in the mainstream arena more, even something like bands covering the songs. If we're talking about understanding what it's all about - along the same lines as what the hell do the lyrics to Lucy in the Sky mean - how many white suburban kids loving SOC understand/relate to where it was coming from?
Someone has already said this I'm sure, but not enough time has passed. Sgt Pepper was 40 yrs ago, the new contenders are at the most 20yrs ago.
Anyway...I think I've talked this out all I could!
Personally, I give it to SOC. Other than coming across it on the radio, I can't think of the last time I listened to Nevermind or even felt to.
Interesting point as far as her "tastemaker" status is concerned, but not one I entirely agree with. Personally, I feel she's often been fractionally behind the pace with many musical trends (European techno-disco, trance, ambient pop, the voguing thing), yet as far as mainstream tastes go, she's often way ahead, which is probably all that matters as far as her audience is concerned. It's harder to measure her musical significance when so much of her work is dependent on the input of her collaborators, especially when the quality of that work varies wildly, depending on who those collaborators are.
I plead guilty to the "over-thinking" charge, though - that's how I do, I'm afraid.