my pick is Nevermind - the comparison to Sgt Pepper is not going to be blow by blow because the world is a different place now. But I think Nevermind reached/es across all genres and fans and the impact of that record is going to last. You didn't have to like the music to see that it was not like anything else on the TV or radio at the time and how many indie record labels got above the poverty line as a result of the genre and its off-shoots blowing up. The breaking ground in sound and recording doesn't have to mean some fancy footwork in the studio, it just has to have a ripple effect over time. Kids everywhere were inspired to start bands seeing they didn't really have to know how to play well and the opportunity was there to go from bar band to megastars if the right people heard you. This may all be common sense to us and known to folks into music, but I think Nevermind brought it home for the general public. I would also mention the hype around the band and its members after the demise of Nirvana, the death of Cobain, the vilification of the woman is his life, the ink spilled, interviews given, clips shown and tabloid covers and all of it.
Here's something I heard on the radio ... an appraisal of Sgt Pepper at 40 by a variety of critics. The younger guys like Fusilli said the album was pretty good, but so are a lot of other albums (that the Beatles made). The older guys like DeCurtis were drooling all over it, making broad, questionable statements like " And that's the best closing passage to an album ... EVER "
Can I just press reset for a moment and dial this back? It might be helpful to first define what the fuck we mean by "Sgt. Pepper". I'm no rockist but I know the rhetoric enough to have a sense of what rockers mean when they bow at the altar of the album. This is pulled directly from Rolling Stone's "500 Greatest Albums" list. You may think they're full of shit - and you'd probably be right - but in terms of the populist conception of what "Sgt. Pepper represented" since that's what we're arguing over in terms of a Gen X equivalent, I think its useful to see what kind of standards we're talking about:
"Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is the most important rock & roll album ever made, an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology by the greatest rock & roll group of all time... John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr were never more fearless and unified in their pursuit of magic and transcendence.
At the same time, Sgt. Pepper formally ushered in an unforgettable season of hope, upheaval and achievement: the late 1960s and, in particular, 1967's Summer of Love. In its iridescent instrumentation, lyric fantasias and eye-popping packaging, Sgt. Pepper defined the opulent revolutionary optimism of psychedelia and instantly spread the gospel of love, acid, Eastern spirituality and electric guitars around the globe. No other pop record of that era, or since, has had such an immediate, titanic impact. This music documents the world's biggest rock band at the very height of its influence and ambition.
Total album sales: 11.7 million."
So what do we have here?
1) "Greatest album by the greatest band" - the best by the best in their generation
2) "most important rock and roll album ever made" - game-changing, innovative
3) "ushered in an unforgettable season" - captured/influenced the zeitgeist of the times
If we only limit our discussion to those four criteria marks, then the list of possible nominees shrinks considerably. It's easy to find albums that fulfill 1-2 out of the four, but all four?
BTW: here's the albums from the Gen X era that RS has on their poll, just to give you a sense of what the mainstream rockist view would be:
17. Nirvana's "Nevermind" 20. Michael Jackson's "Thriller" 26. U2's "Joshua Tree" 48. Public Enemy's "Nation of Millions" 72. Prince's "Purple Rain" 85. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA"
...and that's it for the top 100
Personally, if we're using those 4 standards as criteria, then I'd say the albums that came closest to achieving "Sgt. Pepper" status (SPS) would be "Nevermind," "Straight Outta Compton" or maybe "The Chronic" depending on how generous one's definition of "Gen X" is.
The Beastie Boys don't belong in this conversation, at all. No way you can try to argue they've been the greatest group of their generation. And "Licensed to Ill", though selling well, isn't anyone's example of a "great" album, merely a popular one. Nor are any of the Beastie's albums particularly zeitgeist-y except, maybe, for "Check Your Head" and even that's not likely to gain much traction.
Again - I think "It Takes a Nation" is the greatest hip-hop album ever made but even with that, I think it falls short of SPS behind something like "Straight Outta Compton," especially if we're talking about society at large rather than "rap heads."
I think "OK Computer" is a compelling argument but does a 1997 album even qualify as Gen X? And it's also not an album that would be a touchstone for people who weren't listening to rock in the '90s.
objectively speaking he's also the least talented member of that trio.
lol - I don't know if John Legend pissed in your cheerios or left you after a one-night stand but dude plays piano - well - and can sing his ass off.
He played a lot on Kanye's records if I'm not mistaken.
And I daresay the one rootlesscosmo never dated Jessica White.
I think his style is more... Jessica Simpson.
actually more Ashley Simpson, and pre-nosejob, -dyejob mind you.
I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone here that Legend's Starbucks croonerisms are superior to Common's 2 (at least) classic rap albums and Kanye's many shit hot (though admittedly played-out) productions over the years.
Legend makes corny songs and I don't like his voice. A matter of taste obviously. that said I've never understood why one would listen to John Legend when they can listen to Anthony Hamilton instead.
While Nevermind fits the bill as a hugely popular record that arguably "changed the game", I'd hardly refer to it as anything resembling "an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology". I mean, they packaged up a loose version of punk rock and sold it to the masses. For many, this was revolutionary. But for people, like myself, who'd been listening to punk rock since the early 80s, it wasn't that big of a deal musically. It was a great album, but an "unsurpassed adventure"?
When I think of Sgt. Pepper's, I think revolutionary record put out by a group that was already almost universally known and loved. If the Beatles had released Pepper's as their first record, would it have made the impact it did? They were free to experiment the way they did because of their earlier success.
In that respect, it's hard to come up with a Gen X equivalent. What beloved band put out a record that deviated from their own prior material (as well as everyone else's)? U2 with Achtung Baby? Yuck.
I think "OK Computer" is a compelling argument but does a 1997 album even qualify as Gen X? And it's also not an album that would be a touchstone for people who weren't listening to rock in the '90s.
No thats definately Gen Y, it may not be a touchstine but it would be very high up there.
P.s. I think you make the best arguement in this thread.
On behalf of all Americana, I most diplomatically apologize for our media and their conceptualizations of the worlds perspective disregarding anywhere else that ever existed on planet earth with us.
from wikipedia...
Famous and successful Gen X People IN AMERICA?[/b] (1961-1981) Arts/Entertainment[/b]
Movies, especially Hollywood, reach an international audience, so this list looks valid.
That infinite recognition Hollywood gets is a part of the short-sightedness that conceives these labels for generations based on trite in-country business as opposed to defining a generation on an international scale.
Broadcasting[/b] Maria Bartiromo -? Elizabeth Hasselbeck -? Soledad O'Brian - Never heard of the Soledaddy but its a great name. Rachael Ray - Cooking lady I discovered from a photoshop pic on this board than later discovered while shopping for life sustaining commodities that she has gotten...FAT! front page, I know her...she's the fat food chick...thats more svelte than any other food show lady I've ever seen. Sports[/b] Tom Brady- fuckthese Peyton Manning dudes
Tom Brady? The Brady bunch play sports? I know Lance Armstrong for the whole testicular cancer did he didn't he BALCO business/Tour de Farce.
I don't get this hot garbage either!!! I can't imagine football from this supposed time frame not including the Bears or the Giants of my childhood. Michael Jordan too as you said seems another perfect candidate. But to show how meaningless any of its investigation is- the definition adapts from what its ilk witnessed to who was born then and has attention now, same shit happens each time the guard changes
Then again, wikipedia is a little biased towards America[/b] as opposed to the rest of the world[/b].
This is probably very true and I was never hip to be skeptic from that perspective of their narrower of views, though some of the wikis in other languages seem to stand on their own.
This shit is insignificant, like pop cultural masturbation for America. Don't be offended, just yuck it up at our expense. They made articles around the millenium in Time magazine, etc. describing the upcoming generation of being defined by Gameboys and Gigapets. They never really take it to the sociological level its capable of.
With a more international perspective in mind now I vote Nevermind[/b] and Thriller[/b] both for different reasons/eras, theyve been the best suggestions yet and I def think ready to die, odelay, pauls boutique, the nwa phenomenon on the music industry or a lot of the others named make honorable mentions and def are included generationally.
The discrepencies that lie here are in the requirements for representation. But such a meaningless moniker only drawn up to ponder the association of a buzz in consumption within our nations oncoming demographic is just too myriad and convuluted of a proposition. Its already self contained.
"Gen-Xers" is unfortunately a trite exclusive term to American shit. Same with Baby Boomers despite obviously a huge int'l influence from the second world war-that perspective hasn't been seen much since! Gen-Y, Gen Z same bag- most of the bullshit I seen about it is like 'oh our kids like Japan. those pokemon are irresistable' and thats the only scope its meant to exist for, ignorant of the other way around. And barely investigative towards such phenomena, it's all about putting bodies on the red carpet
While Nevermind fits the bill as a hugely popular record that arguably "changed the game", I'd hardly refer to it as anything resembling "an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology". I mean, they packaged up a loose version of punk rock and sold it to the masses. For many, this was revolutionary. But for people, like myself, who'd been listening to punk rock since the early 80s, it wasn't that big of a deal musically. It was a great album, but an "unsurpassed adventure"?
I agree with all of this, but we are talking about the many, not the people-in-the-know. I think the "an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology" is harder and harder to accomplish in a mind-blowing fashion as time goes on and think it's difficult to find a band that fulfills that and sells millions of records almost 20yrs later after its release....hence the
The one thing I would say about Nevermind (on CD) that may make an (albeit light) innovation/concept argument is the hidden track.
While Nevermind fits the bill as a hugely popular record that arguably "changed the game", I'd hardly refer to it as anything resembling "an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology". I mean, they packaged up a loose version of punk rock and sold it to the masses. For many, this was revolutionary. But for people, like myself, who'd been listening to punk rock since the early 80s, it wasn't that big of a deal musically. It was a great album, but an "unsurpassed adventure"?
I agree with all of this, but we are talking about the many, not the people-in-the-know. I think the "an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology" is harder and harder to accomplish in a mind-blowing fashion as time goes on and think it's difficult to find a band that fulfills that and sells millions of records almost 20yrs later after its release....hence the
The one thing I would say about Nevermind (on CD) that may make an (albeit light) innovation/concept argument is the hidden track.
Well, right off the bat, there's no comparison to The Beatles in terms of the major things that make them "The Beatles." Whether you love or hate them, their status is something that has been unrivaled and nothing in the last 40 years has changed that.
But if we're not looking at longevity and more at the meeting point between popularity, zeitgeist and selling gazillions, then "Nevermind" and "Straight Outta Compton" go neck and neck. THe problem is that I don't think either is as "innovative" on a musical level as other albums you could name from the same era, especially "It Takes a Nation."
"Nevermind" and "Straight Outta Compton" go neck and neck.
What do you think about accessibility? As grating as the sound might be to some, Nevermind has played to the masses in book, record, clothing stores but I'm not sure I could say the same for Straight Outta Compton on the lyrics alone.
"Nevermind" and "Straight Outta Compton" go neck and neck.
What do you think about accessibility? As grating as the sound might be to some, Nevermind has played to the masses in book, record, clothing stores but I'm not sure I could say the same for Straight Outta Compton on the lyrics alone.
What does accessibility have to do with it though? You think half of the lyrics on "Sgt. Pepper" made sense to anyone?
I refer back to Harvey's comments above. Not only was "SOC" a definitive album within hip-hop - far more of a powerful cultural force in Gen X than grunge ever was - but its crossover popularity was massive. "SOC" was a far more popular album among non-Blacks than "Nevermind" was among non-Whites.
Think of it another way: how many groups these days could be said to be post-NWA vs. post-Nirvana?
Put it one more way: I could drop "Fuck the Police" right now and even people who had never heard it before could be .
I'd get for "Smells Like Teen Spirit."
"Nevermind" was a massive album. I won't deny its relevance. But if you're talking about ripples in a pond or whatever - "SOC" goes much further. And I'd argue that, if you're talking about Gen X --> Y, then "The Chronic" would be key album in that respect, though for different aesthetic reasons.
Again - I think "It Takes a Nation" is the greatest hip-hop album ever made but even with that, I think it falls short of SPS behind something like "Straight Outta Compton," especially if we're talking about society at large rather than "rap heads."
But here's the thing. Part of what gives Compton this is the fact that gangster rap (Although no where near as great) is still relevant in the hip hop world. Nation doesn't have this. If gangster rap fell off in the 90's, would it still be as important? Probably. But the fact that people still enjoy gangster rap music, helps with the fact of keeping SOC relevant in today society.
Musically I give it to Nation Socially I give it to Compton
But I still go with the fact that NWA was in part, influenced by PE and just put their own twist on it with the world they lived in.
Again - I think "It Takes a Nation" is the greatest hip-hop album ever made but even with that, I think it falls short of SPS behind something like "Straight Outta Compton," especially if we're talking about society at large rather than "rap heads."
But here's the thing. Part of what gives Compton this is the fact that gangster rap (Although no where near as great) is still relevant in the hip hop world. Nation doesn't have this. If gangster rap fell off in the 90's, would it still be as important? Probably. But the fact that people still enjoy gangster rap music, helps with the fact of keeping SOC relevant in today society.
Musically I give it to Nation Socially I give it to Compton
But I still go with the fact that NWA was in part, influenced by PE and just put their own twist on it with the world they lived in.
Sure and the Beatles were drawing on Indian sitar music. Does that make Ravi Shankar >>> The Beatles?
I agree - I think NWA was likely influenced by PE (and vice versa) but regardless of influence, "SOC" was a game-changer in ways that were independent of PE's relevance.
"If gangster rap fell off in the 90's, would it still be as important? "
Isn't this a strawman argument? I mean, if we're going to go around changing how things played out, then maybe Me Phi Me could have come out with the most important album ever recorded.
Put it another way: isn't the fact that gangster rap is still enjoyed today a SIGN of "SOC's" impact?
"Nevermind" and "Straight Outta Compton" go neck and neck.
What do you think about accessibility? As grating as the sound might be to some, Nevermind has played to the masses in book, record, clothing stores but I'm not sure I could say the same for Straight Outta Compton on the lyrics alone.
Dont Believe the [color:white]Great White [/color] Hype
I was born in '81, so my perspective on this issue isn't nearly as clear as some of the older folks who have weighed in, but for me, I have a hard time believing that a rap album - any rap album - could be considered the defining album of Generation X. I mean, these are some of my favorite albums, but it seems unlikely to me that SOC could be - above all other albums - the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else. America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind. Again, I was young enough at the time that I wasn't really able to appreciate the full societal impact that PE and NWA had, but I was definitely aware that my friends and I were in a small (very small) minority of folks in my town who listened to rap (and rap was all we listened to).
Edit: Then again, The Chronic somehow feels like a viable choice for Generation Y. Like I said, my head hurts.
Comments
Well put.
I pick Nevermind as well, and you argued the albums case far better than i could.
Nevermind.
definitely Nevermind.
hot.
Actually, lukewarm.
And I daresay the one rootlesscosmo never dated Jessica White.
you are correct.
http://www.paulingles.com/pepper.html
http://musicsojourn.com/POD/Prog/PI/POD_Archive/0001-0050/PI_0012_2_Sides_Sgt_Pepper.htm (stream)
I think his style is more... Jessica Simpson.
His standards aren't nearly that high. Quoting the man himself:
"Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is the most important rock & roll album ever made, an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology by the greatest rock & roll group of all time... John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr were never more fearless and unified in their pursuit of magic and transcendence.
At the same time, Sgt. Pepper formally ushered in an unforgettable season of hope, upheaval and achievement: the late 1960s and, in particular, 1967's Summer of Love. In its iridescent instrumentation, lyric fantasias and eye-popping packaging, Sgt. Pepper defined the opulent revolutionary optimism of psychedelia and instantly spread the gospel of love, acid, Eastern spirituality and electric guitars around the globe. No other pop record of that era, or since, has had such an immediate, titanic impact. This music documents the world's biggest rock band at the very height of its influence and ambition.
Total album sales: 11.7 million."
So what do we have here?
1) "Greatest album by the greatest band" - the best by the best in their generation
2) "most important rock and roll album ever made" - game-changing, innovative
3) "ushered in an unforgettable season" - captured/influenced the zeitgeist of the times
4) "album sales = 11.7 million" - hugely successful
If we only limit our discussion to those four criteria marks, then the list of possible nominees shrinks considerably. It's easy to find albums that fulfill 1-2 out of the four, but all four?
BTW: here's the albums from the Gen X era that RS has on their poll, just to give you a sense of what the mainstream rockist view would be:
17. Nirvana's "Nevermind"
20. Michael Jackson's "Thriller"
26. U2's "Joshua Tree"
48. Public Enemy's "Nation of Millions"
72. Prince's "Purple Rain"
85. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA"
...and that's it for the top 100
Personally, if we're using those 4 standards as criteria, then I'd say the albums that came closest to achieving "Sgt. Pepper" status (SPS) would be "Nevermind," "Straight Outta Compton" or maybe "The Chronic" depending on how generous one's definition of "Gen X" is.
The Beastie Boys don't belong in this conversation, at all. No way you can try to argue they've been the greatest group of their generation. And "Licensed to Ill", though selling well, isn't anyone's example of a "great" album, merely a popular one. Nor are any of the Beastie's albums particularly zeitgeist-y except, maybe, for "Check Your Head" and even that's not likely to gain much traction.
Again - I think "It Takes a Nation" is the greatest hip-hop album ever made but even with that, I think it falls short of SPS behind something like "Straight Outta Compton," especially if we're talking about society at large rather than "rap heads."
I think "OK Computer" is a compelling argument but does a 1997 album even qualify as Gen X? And it's also not an album that would be a touchstone for people who weren't listening to rock in the '90s.
actually more Ashley Simpson, and pre-nosejob, -dyejob mind you.
I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone here that Legend's Starbucks croonerisms are superior to Common's 2 (at least) classic rap albums and Kanye's many shit hot (though admittedly played-out) productions over the years.
Legend makes corny songs and I don't like his voice. A matter of taste obviously. that said I've never understood why one would listen to John Legend when they can listen to Anthony Hamilton instead.
They do make better rap albums, but he's not a rapper. On the starbucks scale, they all rate pretty high...
Stir not the hornet nest!
saying.
When I think of Sgt. Pepper's, I think revolutionary record put out by a group that was already almost universally known and loved. If the Beatles had released Pepper's as their first record, would it have made the impact it did? They were free to experiment the way they did because of their earlier success.
In that respect, it's hard to come up with a Gen X equivalent. What beloved band put out a record that deviated from their own prior material (as well as everyone else's)? U2 with Achtung Baby? Yuck.
No thats definately Gen Y, it may not be a touchstine but it would be very high up there.
P.s. I think you make the best arguement in this thread.
With a more international perspective in mind now I vote Nevermind[/b] and Thriller[/b] both for different reasons/eras, theyve been the best suggestions yet and I def think ready to die, odelay, pauls boutique, the nwa phenomenon on the music industry or a lot of the others named make honorable mentions and def are included generationally.
The discrepencies that lie here are in the requirements for representation. But such a meaningless moniker only drawn up to ponder the association of a buzz in consumption within our nations oncoming demographic is just too myriad and convuluted of a proposition. Its already self contained.
"Gen-Xers" is unfortunately a trite exclusive term to American shit. Same with Baby Boomers despite obviously a huge int'l influence from the second world war-that perspective hasn't been seen much since!
Gen-Y, Gen Z same bag- most of the bullshit I seen about it is like 'oh our kids like Japan. those pokemon are irresistable' and thats the only scope its meant to exist for, ignorant of the other way around. And barely investigative towards such phenomena, it's all about putting bodies on the red carpet
And if the only song on there was Fight The Power - and thats it - It would still be the greatest album ever made.
I agree with all of this, but we are talking about the many, not the people-in-the-know. I think the "an unsurpassed adventure in concept, sound, songwriting, cover art and studio technology" is harder and harder to accomplish in a mind-blowing fashion as time goes on and think it's difficult to find a band that fulfills that and sells millions of records almost 20yrs later after its release....hence the
The one thing I would say about Nevermind (on CD) that may make an (albeit light) innovation/concept argument is the hidden track.
Well, right off the bat, there's no comparison to The Beatles in terms of the major things that make them "The Beatles." Whether you love or hate them, their status is something that has been unrivaled and nothing in the last 40 years has changed that.
But if we're not looking at longevity and more at the meeting point between popularity, zeitgeist and selling gazillions, then "Nevermind" and "Straight Outta Compton" go neck and neck. THe problem is that I don't think either is as "innovative" on a musical level as other albums you could name from the same era, especially "It Takes a Nation."
What do you think about accessibility? As grating as the sound might be to some, Nevermind has played to the masses in book, record, clothing stores but I'm not sure I could say the same for Straight Outta Compton on the lyrics alone.
What does accessibility have to do with it though? You think half of the lyrics on "Sgt. Pepper" made sense to anyone?
I refer back to Harvey's comments above. Not only was "SOC" a definitive album within hip-hop - far more of a powerful cultural force in Gen X than grunge ever was - but its crossover popularity was massive. "SOC" was a far more popular album among non-Blacks than "Nevermind" was among non-Whites.
Think of it another way: how many groups these days could be said to be post-NWA vs. post-Nirvana?
Put it one more way: I could drop "Fuck the Police" right now and even people who had never heard it before could be
I'd get
"Nevermind" was a massive album. I won't deny its relevance. But if you're talking about ripples in a pond or whatever - "SOC" goes much further. And I'd argue that, if you're talking about Gen X --> Y, then "The Chronic" would be key album in that respect, though for different aesthetic reasons.
But here's the thing. Part of what gives Compton this is the fact that gangster rap (Although no where near as great) is still relevant in the hip hop world. Nation doesn't have this. If gangster rap fell off in the 90's, would it still be as important? Probably. But the fact that people still enjoy gangster rap music, helps with the fact of keeping SOC relevant in today society.
Musically I give it to Nation
Socially I give it to Compton
But I still go with the fact that NWA was in part, influenced by PE and just put their own twist on it with the world they lived in.
Sure and the Beatles were drawing on Indian sitar music. Does that make Ravi Shankar >>> The Beatles?
I agree - I think NWA was likely influenced by PE (and vice versa) but regardless of influence, "SOC" was a game-changer in ways that were independent of PE's relevance.
"If gangster rap fell off in the 90's, would it still be as important? "
Isn't this a strawman argument? I mean, if we're going to go around changing how things played out, then maybe Me Phi Me could have come out with the most important album ever recorded.
Put it another way: isn't the fact that gangster rap is still enjoyed today a SIGN of "SOC's" impact?
Dont Believe
the
[color:white]Great White [/color]
Hype
You probably just made someone on the board very excited with the mere thought...
universalizing your own experiences is wack
Translation: Me Phi Me actually is the most important album of the PS (Pre-Shawnna) era
Mine too.
I was born in '81, so my perspective on this issue isn't nearly as clear as some of the older folks who have weighed in, but for me, I have a hard time believing that a rap album - any rap album - could be considered the defining album of Generation X. I mean, these are some of my favorite albums, but it seems unlikely to me that SOC could be - above all other albums - the one that more folks in America resonated with than anything else. America just seems to white for that to be feasible in my mind. Again, I was young enough at the time that I wasn't really able to appreciate the full societal impact that PE and NWA had, but I was definitely aware that my friends and I were in a small (very small) minority of folks in my town who listened to rap (and rap was all we listened to).
Edit: Then again, The Chronic somehow feels like a viable choice for Generation Y. Like I said, my head hurts.