We've been having this discussion (if you can call it that) forever here on the Strut, and it's going nowhere.
why is it that you guys think it's gonna go somewhere ?
Pointless bickering
Just dead it already -
if you don't like it, don't read it eggo
those who think that israel is a racist state, do you also think this of saudi arabia or iran, countries that are almost totally muslim and whos laws are based on their holy scriptures.
guz, see the differences between an ethnic neighborhood and an ethnic state are very different. i mean, you grew up in a "black neighborhood", no? i guess it makes sense since youre black or whatever. i mean, hell, you could be a scrawny jewish kid with shitty records, low self esteem and a small penis and you could still live in an ethnic neighborhood.
wow, you mad doggie?
Non-Jews are permitted to live in Israel, hell Jerusalem is basically broken down into 4 quarters (Christian, Arab, Armenian, and Jewish). You are not turned away simply cause you aren't Jewish, like I said earlier I do not agree with todays politics in Israel but I do agree with the need to escape persecution. If you have a more brilliant idea on how to aid a people who have faced a couple MILLENIUMS[/b] of hatred and racism I'd like to hear it.
there are a lot more rigid structures in forming a state. all of which would fall closer to the tenets of racism than ethnic pride. but that's just me. im sure there are other folks that youd rather argue with regarding a jewish state and all that hoo haw.
I really don't think you have much to stand on here since you've said in the past that you've taught ethnic kids certain things you wouldn't teach white kids, and furthermore you've stated a distrust for white people in general. For you to call me racist would certainly be the pot calling the kettle black.
I really don't want to beef any further than this because it gets away from the issue. So lets leave any hate at the door and debate this with actual facts and theories as opposed to potshots from this point on, ok?
guz, see the differences between an ethnic neighborhood and an ethnic state are very different. i mean, you grew up in a "black neighborhood", no? i guess it makes sense since youre black or whatever. i mean, hell, you could be a scrawny jewish kid with shitty records, low self esteem and a small penis and you could still live in an ethnic neighborhood.
wow, you mad doggie?
Non-Jews are permitted to live in Israel, hell Jerusalem is basically broken down into 4 quarters (Christian, Arab, Armenian, and Jewish). You are not turned away simply cause you aren't Jewish, like I said earlier I do not agree with todays politics in Israel but I do agree with the need to escape persecution. If you have a more brilliant idea on how to aid a people who have faced a couple MILLENIUMS[/b] of hatred and racism I'd like to hear it.
there are a lot more rigid structures in forming a state. all of which would fall closer to the tenets of racism than ethnic pride. but that's just me. im sure there are other folks that youd rather argue with regarding a jewish state and all that hoo haw.
I really don't think you have much to stand on here since you've said in the past that you've taught ethnic kids certain things you wouldn't teach white kids, and furthermore you've stated a distrust for white people in general. For you to call me racist would certainly be the pot calling the kettle black.
I really don't want to beef any further than this because it gets away from the issue. So lets leave any hate at the door and debate this with actual facts and theories as opposed to potshots from this point on, ok?
he wasn't spewing hate just stating that there is a difference. You were trying t liken an ethnic neighborhood to an ethnic state... Two different ideas. i think what people struggle with is the fact that the Jewish state was not formed by a local jewish population, but actually created by foreign powers in a land already inhabited by its own ethnicly diverse culture... It would be one thing if the primary population of that area of the world was primarily Jewish and created a Jewish state, but that wasn't the case.
But then again the Palestinian people were not really supported by that region of the world until their land was forcibly taken from them... So I guess that brings up the question of are the anti-isreali middle eastern countries really mad about the Palestinian people having their land taken away, or are they pissed because Israel is a foothold of western culture in the middle east, or are they just racist against Jewish culture.
HAZ, i think you meant "kaddish" and not "kiddish" though i dont really understand what kaddish is. a wake of sorts? im not sure.
and guz, see the differences between an ethnic neighborhood and an ethnic state are very different. i mean, you grew up in a "black neighborhood", no? i guess it makes sense since youre black or whatever. i mean, hell, you could be a scrawny jewish kid with shitty records, low self esteem and a small penis and you could still live in an ethnic neighborhood. or something to that degree. this very likely wouldnt happen in an ethnic state cuz there are rules and regulations and important documents all pointing to the rules and regulations. and then you have to define what constitutes a person that is allowed to live in an ethnic state. like, are ethnic jews for jesus allowed? or how about some skeevy asian dude that wants to be down for the natalie portman type assssss? what are the rules on that? i mean, there are a lot more rigid structures in forming a state. all of which would fall closer to the tenets of racism than ethnic pride. but that's just me. im sure there are other folks that youd rather argue with regarding a jewish state and all that hoo haw.
exactly. the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished. far more like an ethnic heighborhood than an ethnic state. nothing racist about that at all. do your damn thing and take care of your people. let others do the same.
it is when the whole process became about having a jewish nation-state that things start sliding down a long slippery slope. when the arguement is politicized in terms of us and them, what is within our boundaries and what is within theirs that it becomes racist, exclusionary, xenophobic, and just plain dangerous no matter what race or ethnicity you are talking about.
But then again the Palestinian people were not really supported by that region of the world until their land was forcibly taken from them... So I guess that brings up the question of are the anti-isreali middle eastern countries really mad about the Palestinian people having their land taken away, or are they pissed because Israel is a foothold of western culture in the middle east, or are they just racist against Jewish culture.
the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished.
It was BOTH. The support base drew from people who ascribed to both philosophies.
he wasn't spewing hate just stating that there is a difference. You were trying t liken an ethnic neighborhood to an ethnic state... Two different ideas. i think what people struggle with is the fact that the Jewish state was not formed by a local jewish population, but actually created by foreign powers in a land already inhabited by its own ethnicly diverse culture... It would be one thing if the primary population of that area of the world was primarily Jewish and created a Jewish state, but that wasn't the case.
understood. I guess I might be taking for granted that everyone knows that israel is actually very multi-cultural. I just figured that since its an incredibly important land to 3 of the worlds largest reliigons folks just knew that there was plenty of diversity within the country. I had the pleasure of being there arond the time of Ramadan and New Years a few years back and I never felt a true tension. Thats not to say there isn't times where things get rough as fuck but if your only perception of a foreign land is based on what you see on TV than you may not know all you could about the country.
But then again the Palestinian people were not really supported by that region of the world until their land was forcibly taken from them... So I guess that brings up the question of are the anti-isreali middle eastern countries really mad about the Palestinian people having their land taken away, or are they pissed because Israel is a foothold of western culture in the middle east, or are they just racist against Jewish culture.
raises a good question, one that I've debated with Palestinian friends of mine. Now they don't hate me (elsewise we wouldn't be kicking it) but he does have a hatred of israelis. I grew up being taught to hate all Arabs by school teachers who served in Tzahal (Israeli army) and it took me a few years to shake that prejudice (finding out my dad was 1/2 arabic definitly helped).
I don't think the land was cared for too much prior, but I think its not even really about the land anymore and really hasn't been since '48. It's more about the prinicipal and for that my heart lies with the original people of the land (palestinians) however I am torn in beleiving that persecuted peoples need some safety as well.
Catch 22? Slippery Slope? Jumbo Shrimp?
call it what you want but its one of those problems with no real solution
guz, see the differences between an ethnic neighborhood and an ethnic state are very different. i mean, you grew up in a "black neighborhood", no? i guess it makes sense since youre black or whatever. i mean, hell, you could be a scrawny jewish kid with shitty records, low self esteem and a small penis and you could still live in an ethnic neighborhood.
wow, you mad doggie?
Non-Jews are permitted to live in Israel, hell Jerusalem is basically broken down into 4 quarters (Christian, Arab, Armenian, and Jewish). You are not turned away simply cause you aren't Jewish, like I said earlier I do not agree with todays politics in Israel but I do agree with the need to escape persecution. If you have a more brilliant idea on how to aid a people who have faced a couple MILLENIUMS[/b] of hatred and racism I'd like to hear it.
i can think of about 4 million non-jews who are not permitted to live in israel. i can also gaurantee you that you as a jew could obtain citizenship essentially overnight where as i, a non-jew could not. to me, that is racist. the maintenance of a jewish majority in israel is codified into law.
and stop playing the persecution card. there is something extremely ironic and wrong in appealing to a history of persecution as an excuse to justify persecution of others. the jews have been persecuted for millenia. the jews also wiped the canaanites off the face of the earth. how is that for persecution.
But then again the Palestinian people were not really supported by that region of the world until their land was forcibly taken from them... So I guess that brings up the question of are the anti-isreali middle eastern countries really mad about the Palestinian people having their land taken away, or are they pissed because Israel is a foothold of western culture in the middle east, or are they just racist against Jewish culture.
probably a little of all of the above.
The Palestinians had their land taken from them in Jordan and Lebanon way before it was taken away in Israel. Israel under Ottoman rule was far less habitible and inviting to people that those other countries in the 19th century, so when the Palestinians (Bedouins) were kicked out of those countries, they immigrated to Palestine, which was largely populated with Christian Arabs. Most of the modern day Palestinians are actually Jordanian and Lebanese.
the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished.
It was BOTH. The support base drew from people who ascribed to both philosophies.
oh. was there a distinct turning point at all, like a specific time when the slogans changed from being let's have a home to let's have a country?
HAZ, i think you meant "kaddish" and not "kiddish" though i dont really understand what kaddish is. a wake of sorts? im not sure.
and guz, see the differences between an ethnic neighborhood and an ethnic state are very different. i mean, you grew up in a "black neighborhood", no? i guess it makes sense since youre black or whatever. i mean, hell, you could be a scrawny jewish kid with shitty records, low self esteem and a small penis and you could still live in an ethnic neighborhood. or something to that degree. this very likely wouldnt happen in an ethnic state cuz there are rules and regulations and important documents all pointing to the rules and regulations. and then you have to define what constitutes a person that is allowed to live in an ethnic state. like, are ethnic jews for jesus allowed? or how about some skeevy asian dude that wants to be down for the natalie portman type assssss? what are the rules on that? i mean, there are a lot more rigid structures in forming a state. all of which would fall closer to the tenets of racism than ethnic pride. but that's just me. im sure there are other folks that youd rather argue with regarding a jewish state and all that hoo haw.
exactly. the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished. far more like an ethnic heighborhood than an ethnic state. nothing racist about that at all. do your damn thing and take care of your people. let others do the same.
it is when the whole process became about having a jewish nation-state that things start sliding down a long slippery slope. when the arguement is politicized in terms of us and them, what is within our boundaries and what is within theirs that it becomes racist, exclusionary, xenophobic, and just plain dangerous no matter what race or ethnicity you are talking about.
People go on about this like there's some Jewish form of Sharia that exists. Israel is a secular parlimentary democracy. The Prime Minister isn't a Rabbi & looks like he enjoys his bacon...I think anyone can live there and practise their faith...if you don't threaten the state's existence, the state doesn't threaten you. Basically, it sounds like any other country in the world.
Jews live there though, as opposed to being dead somewhere else. This is a problem for a lot of folks, apparently.
I think you're confusing Israel with other middle eastern countries.
the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished.
It was BOTH. The support base drew from people who ascribed to both philosophies.
oh. was there a distinct turning point at all, like a specific time when the slogans changed from being let's have a home to let's have a country?
1896: Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, publishes his pamphlet The Jewish State, which argues that the "Jewish Problem" can be solved by setting up a Jewish state in palestine, or somwhere else, so that Jews can live freely without fear of persecution. A year later, Herzl organizes the first Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, to promote immigration to Palestine.
1916: The Sykes-Picot Agreement is foged by Britan, France and Russia, carving up the Ottoman Empire after it's defeat in World War 1. As part of the agreement, Britian wins effective control over the area of Palestine, and France over the area that is now Lebanon and Syria.
1917: The Balfour Declaration is issued by British Foreign Security Arthur J. Balfour, endorsing the idea of establishing a "national home" for the Jewish people in Palestine.
i can think of about 4 million non-jews who are not permitted to live in israel. i can also gaurantee you that you as a jew could obtain citizenship essentially overnight where as i, a non-jew could not. to me, that is racist. the maintenance of a jewish majority in israel is codified into law.
I am not sure who the 4 million people are you are referring to, but there are many countries that don't permit certain people to live within them. Your living in one right now. Its not like America accepts everyone, if that was true the minutemen on the borders simply wouldn't exist. I think you are looking at this in a far too idealistic way. And yes the maintenence of a Jewish state would mean that they attempt to keep a very Jewish population, what is wrong with this? It is not racist as much as its protection. from a world that has been quite cruel to Jews for centuries, which hten leads into your next paragraph...
and stop playing the persecution card. there is something extremely ironic and wrong in appealing to a history of persecution as an excuse to justify persecution of others. the jews have been persecuted for millenia. the jews also wiped the canaanites off the face of the earth. how is that for persecution.
No one here is advocating persecution. At no point did I say anyone should be persecuted, as a matter of fact if you read up on your read ups you'll see where I say I actually beleive the palestinians have a right to the land.
But to ignore Jewish persecution (ie stop playing the persecution card) would be like telling blacks in America to stop complaining about racism. Perhaps if you saw or were a little more familiar with the treatment of Jews worldwide you'd understand a little more why a Jewish state was considered so neccasary.
We got some real Jew hatters up in this peace. I'm the fuck out of here.
[color:black] (assholes) [/color]
yo, i hope you are not refering to me. i dont hate jews. i dont hate anyone based on ethnicity or religion. and i hope i am not coming off that way cuz i am trying to talk facts and keep an open mind.
i do think that governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another are whack. i could just as easily be having this discussion about white christians and how america is a racist state which has exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to white christians over others. not like the story is any different here. does that make me an america hater?
i can think of about 4 million non-jews who are not permitted to live in israel. i can also gaurantee you that you as a jew could obtain citizenship essentially overnight where as i, a non-jew could not. to me, that is racist. the maintenance of a jewish majority in israel is codified into law.
I am not sure who the 4 million people are you are referring to, but there are many countries that don't permit certain people to live within them. Your living in one right now. Its not like America accepts everyone, if that was true the minutemen on the borders simply wouldn't exist. I think you are looking at this in a far too idealistic way. And yes the maintenence of a Jewish state would mean that they attempt to keep a very Jewish population, what is wrong with this? It is not racist as much as its protection. from a world that has been quite cruel to Jews for centuries, which hten leads into your next paragraph...
and stop playing the persecution card. there is something extremely ironic and wrong in appealing to a history of persecution as an excuse to justify persecution of others. the jews have been persecuted for millenia. the jews also wiped the canaanites off the face of the earth. how is that for persecution.
No one here is advocating persecution. At no point did I say anyone should be persecuted, as a matter of fact if you read up on your read ups you'll see where I say I actually beleive the palestinians have a right to the land.
But to ignore Jewish persecution (ie stop playing the persecution card) would be like telling blacks in America to stop complaining about racism. Perhaps if you saw or were a little more familiar with the treatment of Jews worldwide you'd understand a little more why a Jewish state was considered so neccasary.
the 4 million people i am talking about are palestinian refugees who have been displaced from their homes for decades now. to me, the idea of working to actively keep a very jewish (a political majority) population while it can be understood in principal as self defense, would seem in practice to only lead to racism and discrimination.
i do not believe you are advocating persecution, and you are right, i am in no position to tell jewish people how they should feel about it. that was a out of line and i apoligize for it.
i just don't think isolationism and exclusionary policies work. it becomes an excuse for others with less morale arguements to use the same tactics. it is like codifying segregation and caste systems. i think if you want to be a jew, muslim, or whatever and worship freely you should have the right to do so and that the best way to achieve that is to create laws that bestow and protect these rights for all people regardless of faith or race. that is more or less the law in the us and israel. unfortunately in practice it doesnt quite play out that way either place. one day maybe we'll all live up to our ideals.
We got some real Jew hatters up in this peace. I'm the fuck out of here.
[color:black] (assholes) [/color]
i do think that governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another are whack.
I think you're confusing Israel with other middle eastern countries.
nah, shit is just as whack with many other middle eastern countries, often more so. saudi arabi takes that shit to a level that makes israel look like paradise. in case i am being unclear, any government that inhibits the rights of its citizens to practice their faith of choice (As long as their faith aint fucking up other people) or discriminates based on race or ethnicity is whack. israel is just one of many countries with this problem. in fact, most countries have this problem.
i just don't think isolationism and exclusionary policies work. it becomes an excuse for others with less morale arguements to use the same tactics. it is like codifying segregation and caste systems. i think if you want to be a jew, muslim, or whatever and worship freely you should have the right to do so and that the best way to achieve that is to create laws that bestow and protect these rights for all people regardless of faith or race. that is more or less the law in the us and israel. unfortunately in practice it doesnt quite play out that way either place. one day maybe we'll all live up to our ideals.
people do have a right to practice whatever religion they want in Israel. I don't agree with many things that have gone on in ISrael over the last few years such as building settlements on Palestinian land & dropping missles in the Gaza strip, but that is todays politics and goes past the original topic of why Israel was created and why it is considered neccasary by many.
In an earlier post I said this whole situation has no right or wrong answer and because of this the struggle between 2 people continues
In an earlier post I said this whole situation has no right or wrong answer and because of this the struggle between 2 people continues
i think there is an answer there somewhere, it just wont be settled with our outsiers words. one day the people on both sides will tell their political leaders and generals and war mongers and hate preachers that enough is enough and we dont need any more kids dying.
In an earlier post I said this whole situation has no right or wrong answer and because of this the struggle between 2 people continues
i think there is an answer there somewhere, it just wont be settled with our outsiers words. one day the people on both sides will tell their political leaders and generals and war mongers and hate preachers that enough is enough and we dont need any more kids dying.
as much as I'd love to believe that I don't think it will come to be, at least not in our lifetimes. From Kindergarden on to 6th grade I went to a school where they taught[/b] us that Arabs are our enemeies. Now this isn't Israel this is a suburb outside of Los Angeles. When the hate is so much that they are teaching 5 year olds 10,000 miles from the epicenter to hate "those people over there" you know its strong. I find the best thing to do is to allow yourself to be open to hearing both sides. In the last few years I've attended just as much mosque as I have synogogue.
...trying to take that first step on the long path
Comments
if you don't like it, don't read it eggo
those who think that israel is a racist state, do you also think this of saudi arabia or iran, countries that are almost totally muslim and whos laws are based on their holy scriptures.
wow, you mad doggie?
Non-Jews are permitted to live in Israel, hell Jerusalem is basically broken down into 4 quarters (Christian, Arab, Armenian, and Jewish). You are not turned away simply cause you aren't Jewish, like I said earlier I do not agree with todays politics in Israel but I do agree with the need to escape persecution. If you have a more brilliant idea on how to aid a people who have faced a couple MILLENIUMS[/b] of hatred and racism I'd like to hear it.
there are a lot more rigid structures in forming a state. all of which would fall closer to the tenets of racism than ethnic pride. but that's just me. im sure there are other folks that youd rather argue with regarding a jewish state and all that hoo haw.
I really don't think you have much to stand on here since you've said in the past that you've taught ethnic kids certain things you wouldn't teach white kids, and furthermore you've stated a distrust for white people in general. For you to call me racist would certainly be the pot calling the kettle black.
I really don't want to beef any further than this because it gets away from the issue. So lets leave any hate at the door and debate this with actual facts and theories as opposed to potshots from this point on, ok?
I really don't think you have much to stand on here since you've said in the past that you've taught ethnic kids certain things you wouldn't teach white kids, and furthermore you've stated a distrust for white people in general. For you to call me racist would certainly be the pot calling the kettle black.
I really don't want to beef any further than this because it gets away from the issue. So lets leave any hate at the door and debate this with actual facts and theories as opposed to potshots from this point on, ok?
he wasn't spewing hate just stating that there is a difference. You were trying t liken an ethnic neighborhood to an ethnic state... Two different ideas. i think what people struggle with is the fact that the Jewish state was not formed by a local jewish population, but actually created by foreign powers in a land already inhabited by its own ethnicly diverse culture... It would be one thing if the primary population of that area of the world was primarily Jewish and created a Jewish state, but that wasn't the case.
But then again the Palestinian people were not really supported by that region of the world until their land was forcibly taken from them... So I guess that brings up the question of are the anti-isreali middle eastern countries really mad about the Palestinian people having their land taken away, or are they pissed because Israel is a foothold of western culture in the middle east, or are they just racist against Jewish culture.
exactly. the original philosophy behind zionism as i understand it was not really about the jews having a nation state they could call there own. it was far more about having a place to worship freely and maintaining their religion and culture in the area where it originally flourished. far more like an ethnic heighborhood than an ethnic state. nothing racist about that at all. do your damn thing and take care of your people. let others do the same.
it is when the whole process became about having a jewish nation-state that things start sliding down a long slippery slope. when the arguement is politicized in terms of us and them, what is within our boundaries and what is within theirs that it becomes racist, exclusionary, xenophobic, and just plain dangerous no matter what race or ethnicity you are talking about.
probably a little of all of the above.
It was BOTH. The support base drew from people who ascribed to both philosophies.
thanks turdstream, I needed that.
understood. I guess I might be taking for granted that everyone knows that israel is actually very multi-cultural. I just figured that since its an incredibly important land to 3 of the worlds largest reliigons folks just knew that there was plenty of diversity within the country. I had the pleasure of being there arond the time of Ramadan and New Years a few years back and I never felt a true tension. Thats not to say there isn't times where things get rough as fuck but if your only perception of a foreign land is based on what you see on TV than you may not know all you could about the country.
raises a good question, one that I've debated with Palestinian friends of mine. Now they don't hate me (elsewise we wouldn't be kicking it) but he does have a hatred of israelis. I grew up being taught to hate all Arabs by school teachers who served in Tzahal (Israeli army) and it took me a few years to shake that prejudice (finding out my dad was 1/2 arabic definitly helped).
I don't think the land was cared for too much prior, but I think its not even really about the land anymore and really hasn't been since '48. It's more about the prinicipal and for that my heart lies with the original people of the land (palestinians) however I am torn in beleiving that persecuted peoples need some safety as well.
Catch 22? Slippery Slope? Jumbo Shrimp?
call it what you want but its one of those problems with no real solution
i can think of about 4 million non-jews who are not permitted to live in israel. i can also gaurantee you that you as a jew could obtain citizenship essentially overnight where as i, a non-jew could not. to me, that is racist. the maintenance of a jewish majority in israel is codified into law.
and stop playing the persecution card. there is something extremely ironic and wrong in appealing to a history of persecution as an excuse to justify persecution of others. the jews have been persecuted for millenia. the jews also wiped the canaanites off the face of the earth. how is that for persecution.
The Palestinians had their land taken from them in Jordan and Lebanon way before it was taken away in Israel. Israel under Ottoman rule was far less habitible and inviting to people that those other countries in the 19th century, so when the Palestinians (Bedouins) were kicked out of those countries, they immigrated to Palestine, which was largely populated with Christian Arabs. Most of the modern day Palestinians are actually Jordanian and Lebanese.
[color:white] (assholes) [/color]
oh. was there a distinct turning point at all, like a specific time when the slogans changed from being let's have a home to let's have a country?
People go on about this like there's some Jewish form of Sharia that exists. Israel is a secular parlimentary democracy. The Prime Minister isn't a Rabbi & looks like he enjoys his bacon...I think anyone can live there and practise their faith...if you don't threaten the state's existence, the state doesn't threaten you. Basically, it sounds like any other country in the world.
Jews live there though, as opposed to being dead somewhere else. This is a problem for a lot of folks, apparently.
I think you're confusing Israel with other middle eastern countries.
h
I like AI.
h
1896: Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, publishes his pamphlet The Jewish State, which argues that the "Jewish Problem" can be solved by setting up a Jewish state in palestine, or somwhere else, so that Jews can live freely without fear of persecution. A year later, Herzl organizes the first Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland, to promote immigration to Palestine.
1916: The Sykes-Picot Agreement is foged by Britan, France and Russia, carving up the Ottoman Empire after it's defeat in World War 1. As part of the agreement, Britian wins effective control over the area of Palestine, and France over the area that is now Lebanon and Syria.
1917: The Balfour Declaration is issued by British Foreign Security Arthur J. Balfour, endorsing the idea of establishing a "national home" for the Jewish people in Palestine.
I could go on...
I am not sure who the 4 million people are you are referring to, but there are many countries that don't permit certain people to live within them. Your living in one right now. Its not like America accepts everyone, if that was true the minutemen on the borders simply wouldn't exist. I think you are looking at this in a far too idealistic way. And yes the maintenence of a Jewish state would mean that they attempt to keep a very Jewish population, what is wrong with this? It is not racist as much as its protection. from a world that has been quite cruel to Jews for centuries, which hten leads into your next paragraph...
No one here is advocating persecution. At no point did I say anyone should be persecuted, as a matter of fact if you read up on your read ups you'll see where I say I actually beleive the palestinians have a right to the land.
But to ignore Jewish persecution (ie stop playing the persecution card) would be like telling blacks in America to stop complaining about racism. Perhaps if you saw or were a little more familiar with the treatment of Jews worldwide you'd understand a little more why a Jewish state was considered so neccasary.
yo, i hope you are not refering to me. i dont hate jews. i dont hate anyone based on ethnicity or religion. and i hope i am not coming off that way cuz i am trying to talk facts and keep an open mind.
i do think that governments who have exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to one race over another are whack. i could just as easily be having this discussion about white christians and how america is a racist state which has exclusionary policies and practices that give preference to white christians over others. not like the story is any different here. does that make me an america hater?
Turkey to Italy,
Italy to Spain
Spain to Portugal
Portugal to Amsterdam
Amsterdam to Poland
Poland to Russia
Russia to Israel...
the 4 million people i am talking about are palestinian refugees who have been displaced from their homes for decades now. to me, the idea of working to actively keep a very jewish (a political majority) population while it can be understood in principal as self defense, would seem in practice to only lead to racism and discrimination.
i do not believe you are advocating persecution, and you are right, i am in no position to tell jewish people how they should feel about it. that was a out of line and i apoligize for it.
i just don't think isolationism and exclusionary policies work. it becomes an excuse for others with less morale arguements to use the same tactics. it is like codifying segregation and caste systems. i think if you want to be a jew, muslim, or whatever and worship freely you should have the right to do so and that the best way to achieve that is to create laws that bestow and protect these rights for all people regardless of faith or race. that is more or less the law in the us and israel. unfortunately in practice it doesnt quite play out that way either place. one day maybe we'll all live up to our ideals.
nah, shit is just as whack with many other middle eastern countries, often more so. saudi arabi takes that shit to a level that makes israel look like paradise. in case i am being unclear, any government that inhibits the rights of its citizens to practice their faith of choice (As long as their faith aint fucking up other people) or discriminates based on race or ethnicity is whack. israel is just one of many countries with this problem. in fact, most countries have this problem.
... come on now, dog.
people do have a right to practice whatever religion they want in Israel. I don't agree with many things that have gone on in ISrael over the last few years such as building settlements on Palestinian land & dropping missles in the Gaza strip, but that is todays politics and goes past the original topic of why Israel was created and why it is considered neccasary by many.
In an earlier post I said this whole situation has no right or wrong answer and because of this the struggle between 2 people continues
from africa to babylon ....
from babylon to israel ....
... come on now, dog.
peoples is peoples. all coming and going.
You missed a few steps in there...
i think there is an answer there somewhere, it just wont be settled with our outsiers words. one day the people on both sides will tell their political leaders and generals and war mongers and hate preachers that enough is enough and we dont need any more kids dying.
as much as I'd love to believe that I don't think it will come to be, at least not in our lifetimes. From Kindergarden on to 6th grade I went to a school where they taught[/b] us that Arabs are our enemeies. Now this isn't Israel this is a suburb outside of Los Angeles. When the hate is so much that they are teaching 5 year olds 10,000 miles from the epicenter to hate "those people over there" you know its strong. I find the best thing to do is to allow yourself to be open to hearing both sides. In the last few years I've attended just as much mosque as I have synogogue.
...trying to take that first step on the long path