And you're a big somebody splif. Come back to me when you can actually refute anything I say. And the rest of you ankle biters will lose. Here is the key fact about the anti-war movement. Your political prospects rise as those of Iraqis fall. That's the truth. You can believe that the insurgency represents them as much as you want. But it's a lie. And you can hate me for stating this. But in fifty years, you will all be embarrassed that advocated for abandoning our efforts to build a democracy in the heart of the Arab world. If you don't think fighting for the determination of Kurds and Shiites against the backdrop of a tyranny our nation helped create is enough of a human rights or liberal imperative, you don't deserve my reminders of your hypocricy.
You also are a fool. Earlier you asked whether the Iraqis got a say in whether or not they wanted to live under Saddam. You can't possibly mean this. This is why it is hard for me to take you seriously. You gobble up the third rate propaganda of the antiwar movement and repeat it as if this counts as independent thinking. You also operate under the illusion that the coordinated murder of innocents in Iraq is somehow a popular expression of the will of the people there. It's Vietnam, isn't it Larry? You uneducable idiots. Your misplaced and misinformed outrage is not democracy in action. You are hindering its spread in the rest of the world with your willy nilly activism. Go make a puppet and protest third world development.
Wow. Well, you're doing a wonderful job of convincing everyone of your side, aren't you? Your conversion rate on here is, what, a whopping 0%? Which either means (a) we're all idiots and you know the Truth and we're all just too idiotic to see your absolutely correct version of the Truth or (b) there's more than one way to read this shit and we just flat out disagree with you (for a myriad of different reasons).
Additionally, I resent the notion that I should stick up for DJ Shadow's comments because he's on "my side."
I've always found your views compelling, interesting, provocative, and--to a certain degree-understandable and I'm rather upset that "discussion" has broken down into such silly name-calling.
You also operate under the illusion that the coordinated murder of innocents in Iraq is somehow a popular expression of the will of the people there.
Don't misrepresent what I said. I understand Saddam was not a popular leader, and thanks to US assistance (which you freely admit), the people had no choice but to accept him. But I have no doubt that, in time, the diverse people of Iraq were capable of self-determination by overthrowing the Saddam regime/Baathist party. But now we will never know since the US GOV'T HAS DECIDED TO DETERMINE IRAQ'S future.
protest third world development.
I'm curious...What third world development are you talking about?
Also, how should I be staying well-informed on the issues? FOX NEWS?
And you're a big somebody splif. Come back to me when you can actually refute anything I say. And the rest of you ankle biters will lose. Here is the key fact about the anti-war movement. Your political prospects rise as those of Iraqis fall. That's the truth. You can believe that the insurgency represents them as much as you want. But it's a lie. And you can hate me for stating this. But in fifty years, you will all be embarrassed that advocated for abandoning our efforts to build a democracy in the heart of the Arab world. If you don't think fighting for the determination of Kurds and Shiites against the backdrop of a tyranny our nation helped create is enough of a human rights or liberal imperative, you don't deserve my reminders of your hypocricy.
Please homie, what does his status in the world or on this board have anything to do with what he just posted? And who are YOU again? Rummy? Bush? You are posting on Soulstrut you douchebag... How big and important are you? Fuck no one gives a shit what role you ahve in the real world... lets keep it in the frame of the discussion...
I don't think anyone wants the Iraqi people or any people to live under Tyranny, but recognize that is not the reason we are there. We are there for profit of the Corporations that our leaders have vested interests in. period.
If we were really there for the human rights issues, then why are we holding out on Africa with aids medication, why are we overthrowing elected governments in other countries. Why aren't we helping haiti, why aren't we attacking North Korea who is a much bigger threat?? There is a fuckin laundry list of countries and areas of the world that have worse human rights abuses that are currently going on and were going on when we attacked IRaq... That is the whole problem with your argument... It only fits with teh situation at hand and with the CURRENT reasoning for war... It does not address the reason we initially went to war, it does not address the second reason we went to war... just the current.
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
If you don't think fighting for the determination of Kurds and Shiites against the backdrop of a tyranny our nation helped create is enough of a human rights or liberal imperative, you don't deserve my reminders of your hypocricy.
Do you remember the last time the US decided to help the Kurds and the Shiites? Well, they helped until they thought that maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all and then stood by while they got slaughtered. To the Americans, Iraqis are disposable - work with them when it's in the USA's interest, fuck 'em when it's not.
L*rry, you are going to end up being nothing but frustrated if you carry this discussion on. Just know that there are many people that agree with you, and just cause you can't get this one guy to see your side doesn't mean you need to break your back to make it happen.
I suggest getting pizza, enjoying summer, kissing your wife and playing with your kids over trying to get a dude who won't see past his own short-sighted views to try to listen
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
If memory serves, and it does, I believe Vitamin was hoping/dreaming/begging/salivating/getting hard for the bombing of Iran.
You make my blood boil, but from that post on, I knew talking with you wasn't worth it. Anything you say is coloured by your hardly-disguised glee at the thought of more dead bodies.
The question is, though: When placing your bombs, did you just cluster them around your flag, or did you tend to put decoy bombs here and there to throw off your opponent?
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
If memory serves, and it does, I believe Vitamin was hoping/dreaming/begging/salivating/getting hard for the bombing of Iran.
You make my blood boil, but from that post on, I knew talking with you wasn't worth it. Anything you say is coloured by your hardly-disguised glee at the thought of more dead bodies.
But don't forget that he has also made himself available for Persian Hottie Hollerin'.
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
If memory serves, and it does, I believe Vitamin was hoping/dreaming/begging/salivating/getting hard for the bombing of Iran.
You make my blood boil, but from that post on, I knew talking with you wasn't worth it. Anything you say is coloured by your hardly-disguised glee at the thought of more dead bodies.
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
It's too much. I hope that soon you will move on to a new fad, or maybe just maybe you will become serious liberals with the courage to follow through on your own convictions. When I talk to my Kurdish and Iranian freinds about the anti-war movement here, they all express bewilderment that you call yourselves liberals. You have no idea about the venality of our enemies. You cling to the fantasy that neocons up and created them. Who needs you? You unserious fools.
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
If memory serves, and it does, I believe Vitamin was hoping/dreaming/begging/salivating/getting hard for the bombing of Iran.
You make my blood boil, but from that post on, I knew talking with you wasn't worth it. Anything you say is coloured by your hardly-disguised glee at the thought of more dead bodies.
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
It's too much. I hope that soon you will move on to a new fad, or maybe just maybe you will become serious liberals with the courage to follow through on your own convictions. When I talk to my Kurdish and Iranian freinds about the anti-war movement here, they all express bewilderment that you call yourselves liberals. You have no idea about the venality of our enemies. You cling to the fantasy that neocons up and created them. Who needs you? You unserious fools.
You're a jerk.
I also note that you make no effort to deny that while earlier calling for the bombing of Iran you simultaneously made it known that you were available for, as Ross says, Persian Hottie Hollerin'.
The question is, though: When placing your bombs, did you just cluster them around your flag, or did you tend to put decoy bombs here and there to throw off your opponent?
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
If memory serves, and it does, I believe Vitamin was hoping/dreaming/begging/salivating/getting hard for the bombing of Iran.
You make my blood boil, but from that post on, I knew talking with you wasn't worth it. Anything you say is coloured by your hardly-disguised glee at the thought of more dead bodies.
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
It's too much. I hope that soon you will move on to a new fad, or maybe just maybe you will become serious liberals with the courage to follow through on your own convictions. When I talk to my Kurdish and Iranian freinds about the anti-war movement here, they all express bewilderment that you call yourselves liberals. You have no idea about the venality of our enemies. You cling to the fantasy that neocons up and created them. Who needs you? You unserious fools.
I don't know what I'm talking about? You hope I'll move on to a new fad? You are so off the mark about who I am, where I'm from, what I know, where I've lived, what I've lived, who I've lost and what I will never get back. I don't give a shit if you have friends who are Iranian or Kurdish. What's that supposed to mean to me? Keep talking your Journalism 101 shit and I'll keep being unserious about loved ones.
Stay out of this Rillz. Grown folks are talking. And I never advocated bombing Iran.
So be it--I can only hope that I never 'grow' into such a state of mental putrefaction.
I suspect the thread in question has long since slipped off the board, and while I am not absolutely certain that you used the word "bomb," you definitely did call for the invasion of Iran. Tell me now, Vitamalt, how does the U.S. effect an invasion in the 21st Century? By some means other than bombing?
Stay out of this Rillz. Grown folks are talking. And I never advocated bombing Iran.
well flip the coin and lets talk about the friends I ahve over there that just want us the fuck out of there... lets look at my friends in the service that are there and have come back and all they can say is its alot worse than we know... That its a complete mess and besides the fact that they don't know when theya re coming back, they are not sure what the hell they are there for. they don't know who is the enemy and who isn't... I mean these are some republican army lets kill and drink beer muhiggas and theya re cconfused about what theya re doing over there??? I mean you would like to argue that everything is black or white an there are no grey areas, sorry homie, I see all sorts of greys in this situation and a whole lot of bad things going down... And don't worry I stand by my convictions so in 50 years I will will ahve the same view...
I am sure if you were around during the vietnam era you would ahve supported that conflict as well... Neocon til you die huh?
Also do you have any military training or been in war or combat firsthand? Just a question. Thanks.
Sorry to hear about your friend, that sounds awful and I sincerely hope she is returned/found safely.
Stay out of this Rillz. Grown folks are talking. And I never advocated bombing Iran.
the fuck you didn't - it was in a Top Five of yours. you think I'd make that up? you think I'd even want to PRETEND that someone who thinks like you exists?
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
For starters, sorry about your friend. Hope he/she is able to come out of the situation unharmed...
But do you think the 'democracy movement' in Iran is capable enough to bring about change there? We are the NATION-BUILDERS, SON.
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
For starters, sorry about your friend. Hope he/she is able to come out of the situation unharmed...
But do you think the 'democracy movement' in Iran is capable enough to bring about change there?
change?? hahaha... Its the standard American Supersized Puppet Regime in place to keep the oil out of the people's hands and in the hands of the corporations. Keep it REAL!
change?? hahaha... Its the standard American Supersized Puppet Regime in place to keep the oil out of the people's hands and in the hands of the corporations. Keep it REAL!
i love it when you try to throw into these conversations, deep as a puddle
change?? hahaha... Its the standard American Supersized Puppet Regime in place to keep the oil out of the people's hands and in the hands of the corporations. Keep it REAL!
i love it when you try to throw into these conversations, deep as a puddle
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
For starters, sorry about your friend. Hope he/she is able to come out of the situation unharmed...
But do you think the 'democracy movement' in Iran is capable enough to bring about change there?
Yes. In answer to all of your questions about my position on invading/bombing Iran. It is a terrible idea. I have written on this for a number of magazines, my newspaper and other websites. The democracy movement in Iran has the same shot the Otpor movement in Serbia had, the Yukashenko movement had in Ukraine, Shakasvilli's supporters had in Georgia. If the international community supports them, starting with liberal organizations, they will succeed. The key is nonviolent discipline and appealing to the conscience of the mid-level commanders of the state security services not to fire on demonstrations. A similar tactic was used with great success in the civil rights movement. In fact outside of soulstrut, where I am often the punching bag and caricature of the Bush administration, I have spent a lot of time writing about nonviolent opposition movements--including a piece published in December 2002 weighing the prospects of such a movement in Iraq before the war.
Stay out of this Rillz. Grown folks are talking. And I never advocated bombing Iran.
the fuck you didn't - it was in a Top Five of yours. you think I'd make that up? you think I'd even want to PRETEND that someone who thinks like you exists?
You don't know me either. And I wrote that Bush was not serious about Iran. What I mean by seriousness is to create a clandestine fund to get money to the families of striking oil workers; digital cameras to student activists and a movement to bring back a UN human rights rappereur for Iran.
Comments
And you're a big somebody splif. Come back to me when you can actually refute anything I say. And the rest of you ankle biters will lose. Here is the key fact about the anti-war movement. Your political prospects rise as those of Iraqis fall. That's the truth. You can believe that the insurgency represents them as much as you want. But it's a lie. And you can hate me for stating this. But in fifty years, you will all be embarrassed that advocated for abandoning our efforts to build a democracy in the heart of the Arab world. If you don't think fighting for the determination of Kurds and Shiites against the backdrop of a tyranny our nation helped create is enough of a human rights or liberal imperative, you don't deserve my reminders of your hypocricy.
Wow. Well, you're doing a wonderful job of convincing everyone of your side, aren't you? Your conversion rate on here is, what, a whopping 0%? Which either means (a) we're all idiots and you know the Truth and we're all just too idiotic to see your absolutely correct version of the Truth or (b) there's more than one way to read this shit and we just flat out disagree with you (for a myriad of different reasons).
Additionally, I resent the notion that I should stick up for DJ Shadow's comments because he's on "my side."
I've always found your views compelling, interesting, provocative, and--to a certain degree-understandable and I'm rather upset that "discussion" has broken down into such silly name-calling.
-e
best board game evar!!!
Don't misrepresent what I said. I understand Saddam was not a popular leader, and thanks to US assistance (which you freely admit), the people had no choice but to accept him. But I have no doubt that, in time, the diverse people of Iraq were capable of self-determination by overthrowing the Saddam regime/Baathist party. But now we will never know since the US GOV'T HAS DECIDED TO DETERMINE IRAQ'S future.
I'm curious...What third world development are you talking about?
Also, how should I be staying well-informed on the issues? FOX NEWS?
Please homie, what does his status in the world or on this board have anything to do with what he just posted? And who are YOU again? Rummy? Bush? You are posting on Soulstrut you douchebag... How big and important are you? Fuck no one gives a shit what role you ahve in the real world... lets keep it in the frame of the discussion...
I don't think anyone wants the Iraqi people or any people to live under Tyranny, but recognize that is not the reason we are there. We are there for profit of the Corporations that our leaders have vested interests in. period.
If we were really there for the human rights issues, then why are we holding out on Africa with aids medication, why are we overthrowing elected governments in other countries. Why aren't we helping haiti, why aren't we attacking North Korea who is a much bigger threat?? There is a fuckin laundry list of countries and areas of the world that have worse human rights abuses that are currently going on and were going on when we attacked IRaq... That is the whole problem with your argument... It only fits with teh situation at hand and with the CURRENT reasoning for war... It does not address the reason we initially went to war, it does not address the second reason we went to war... just the current.
If we are the great humanitarian government whose only goal is for the democratization of the world and peoples rights around the world, then where are we going AFTER Iraq??? There are alot of problem areas of the world that need democracy, so who is next? tell me?
Do you remember the last time the US decided to help the Kurds and the Shiites? Well, they helped until they thought that maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all and then stood by while they got slaughtered. To the Americans, Iraqis are disposable - work with them when it's in the USA's interest, fuck 'em when it's not.
Zombie dogs!
hands fucking down....now back to our scheduled debate...
Bigger somebody than you mate, but that's not difficult is it?
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
No worries A*am!
If memory serves, and it does, I believe Vitamin was hoping/dreaming/begging/salivating/getting hard for the bombing of Iran.
You make my blood boil, but from that post on, I knew talking with you wasn't worth it. Anything you say is coloured by your hardly-disguised glee at the thought of more dead bodies.
So necessary!
The question is, though: When placing your bombs, did you just cluster them around your flag, or did you tend to put decoy bombs here and there to throw off your opponent?
But don't forget that he has also made himself available for Persian Hottie Hollerin'.
You don't know what you're talking about. One of the reasons I am in such a foul mood today and see no point in reasoning with any of you knee-jerk apologists is because a good friend of mine in Iran was abducted this morning by the women-hating, gay hating real fundementalists in power there. But the anti-war movement is completely unconcerned about the democracy movement in Iran. What about democracy right here at home dude?, they might say.
It's too much. I hope that soon you will move on to a new fad, or maybe just maybe you will become serious liberals with the courage to follow through on your own convictions. When I talk to my Kurdish and Iranian freinds about the anti-war movement here, they all express bewilderment that you call yourselves liberals. You have no idea about the venality of our enemies. You cling to the fantasy that neocons up and created them. Who needs you? You unserious fools.
You're a jerk.
I also note that you make no effort to deny that while earlier calling for the bombing of Iran you simultaneously made it known that you were available for, as Ross says, Persian Hottie Hollerin'.
both pete....
I don't know what I'm talking about? You hope I'll move on to a new fad? You are so off the mark about who I am, where I'm from, what I know, where I've lived, what I've lived, who I've lost and what I will never get back. I don't give a shit if you have friends who are Iranian or Kurdish. What's that supposed to mean to me? Keep talking your Journalism 101 shit and I'll keep being unserious about loved ones.
So be it--I can only hope that I never 'grow' into such a state of mental putrefaction.
I suspect the thread in question has long since slipped off the board, and while I am not absolutely certain that you used the word "bomb," you definitely did call for the invasion of Iran. Tell me now, Vitamalt, how does the U.S. effect an invasion in the 21st Century? By some means other than bombing?
well flip the coin and lets talk about the friends I ahve over there that just want us the fuck out of there... lets look at my friends in the service that are there and have come back and all they can say is its alot worse than we know... That its a complete mess and besides the fact that they don't know when theya re coming back, they are not sure what the hell they are there for. they don't know who is the enemy and who isn't... I mean these are some republican army lets kill and drink beer muhiggas and theya re cconfused about what theya re doing over there??? I mean you would like to argue that everything is black or white an there are no grey areas, sorry homie, I see all sorts of greys in this situation and a whole lot of bad things going down... And don't worry I stand by my convictions so in 50 years I will will ahve the same view...
I am sure if you were around during the vietnam era you would ahve supported that conflict as well... Neocon til you die huh?
Also do you have any military training or been in war or combat firsthand? Just a question. Thanks.
Sorry to hear about your friend, that sounds awful and I sincerely hope she is returned/found safely.
the fuck you didn't - it was in a Top Five of yours. you think I'd make that up? you think I'd even want to PRETEND that someone who thinks like you exists?
For starters, sorry about your friend. Hope he/she is able to come out of the situation unharmed...
But do you think the 'democracy movement' in Iran is capable enough to bring about change there? We are the NATION-BUILDERS, SON.
change?? hahaha... Its the standard American Supersized Puppet Regime in place to keep the oil out of the people's hands and in the hands of the corporations. Keep it REAL!
i love it when you try to throw into these conversations, deep as a puddle
same to you
Don't you ahve some books to go reshelve?
Yes. In answer to all of your questions about my position on invading/bombing Iran. It is a terrible idea. I have written on this for a number of magazines, my newspaper and other websites. The democracy movement in Iran has the same shot the Otpor movement in Serbia had, the Yukashenko movement had in Ukraine, Shakasvilli's supporters had in Georgia. If the international community supports them, starting with liberal organizations, they will succeed. The key is nonviolent discipline and appealing to the conscience of the mid-level commanders of the state security services not to fire on demonstrations. A similar tactic was used with great success in the civil rights movement. In fact outside of soulstrut, where I am often the punching bag and caricature of the Bush administration, I have spent a lot of time writing about nonviolent opposition movements--including a piece published in December 2002 weighing the prospects of such a movement in Iraq before the war.
WORD. POST IT.
You don't know me either. And I wrote that Bush was not serious about Iran. What I mean by seriousness is to create a clandestine fund to get money to the families of striking oil workers; digital cameras to student activists and a movement to bring back a UN human rights rappereur for Iran.
it took you like 20 minutes to modify your post for that...?