If you don't like it, don't read it. But you have no right to tell me to leave. I belong here just as much as anyone. And if you disagree with me, come up with an argument instead of suggesting banishment.
maybe you should contribute something besides delivering your lil neo-con reach around talking points?
do you like records?
Children, children please!
Damn, just because you guys disagree with him is no reason to hat.
this thread reminded me of this map, drawn for Harpers magazine in 2001, now hosted by PBS as part of their analysis of the mideast. Anyways, anyone curious about the land population make up of the area should take a look. It shows the population make-up in 1947 pre-Israel, then 1949 after the war, and the the proposed (and rejected) 2000 offer. File is a PDF. Map
First map from that link is totally misleading.
All that yellow space on the first map is a total illusion. It makes the reader think of the difference in population size between Jewish and Arab in terms of proportion of blue to yellow (which would look to be about a million to one). In fact, most of that yellow land was (indeed is in the case of the Negev desert) uninhabited. These are simply artifically drawn areas where Arabs formed a majority, but there may have been no Arabs living in most of that space.
Nor does it clear things up to specify that the blue areas represent Jewish owned land (which it appears the author of the map is actually trying to show). For this implies that the yellow areas were "owned" by the local Arabs. Totally not true. Most of it was British Mandatory land or else owned by absentee landlords.
And for all the "ethnic-cleansing" language that gets bandied about, peep the third map, representing the day after Israel's War of Independence. Two things to note:
1. The Palestinian Arab population centers remain largely intact, even those that ended up in Israel. (Just because what was yellow on the first map is now blue does not mean any Arabs were expelled from these areas; see my point above).
2. Note the total absence of blue in the West Bank and Gaza. Now that's ethnic cleansing for you. Israel ends up containing a pretty sizeable Arab minority after the war. West Bank and Gaza? Totally 100% cleansed of Jews.
Hey rootless, I think you're missing that the legend shows two different colours of yellow - one for under foreign occupation and one for self-rule. In this case the fact that it was all owned by the British is shown. Also, about the lack of blue in the west bank and gaza, it looks to me like there was never any blue in those areas.
No I saw that. It's still not right. The two color shades rightly show that both the Arab and Jewish populations before the War of Independence were under foreign rule, in this case British. But if that's the case, if the whole map was under foreign rule, why are uninhabited areas of the map "Palestinian" and not "Jewish"? Specific areas of Jewish settlement are blue, while the entire rest of the map is yellow, regardless if there is actual settlement (which there couldn't be, because it would mean continous uninterupted Palestinian settlement across the entire yellow area!). See what I mean? The colors are misleading.
And as for the of blue in the west bank and gaza, take a closer look. There are age-old Jewish communities in Jerusalem and south of Jerusalem (in Hebron for instance) that were wiped out in '48. Jews only came back after 1967 when they could. Those dots might seem small but proportionately represent a large percentage of the Jewish population. And that is exactly my point about the misleading colors: While only the geographic areas of Jewish settlement, no matter how densely populated, are shown in blue, the whole rest of the map , whether inhabited or not, is shown as "Palestinian." Get it?
At the risk of insulting your intelligence: Consider an open field. Then there's a highrise apt containing a million Jews that only covers 5% of the area of the field. A million Arabs inhabit the field also, but are spread out over three villages, all distant from each other. The entire field, however, is actually controlled by a foreign power, none of whose residents live there. Using the model of the map you provided, dividing Arab and Jew into yellow and blue, only 5% of the map would be blue while 95% would be yellow, despite equal populations. Misleading? You bet.
Yes, I see what you're saying, that they could have used a white colour to show uninhabited areas, and then with the light yellow and blue. It's a bit like the US electoral map where they would show a whole state as being either red or blue when really the county-by-county view show a much more even picture. I think, though, that some of your objections are spoken to in the text below the figures, like in the first where they note that a third of the population is jewish residing in 7% of the land (and then, presumably, since I don't think that there was a wave of immigration during the war, that in 1949 you would still have a third of the population being jewish but now controlling 78% of the land). But yes, if you didn't read the text then I could see how it could be misleading.
I didn't suggest banishment (and yes I have a right to tell you to leave, I died face down in the mud for that right). I suggested you voluntarily leave, cos everyone is tired of listening to your exhaustively researched reactionary bullshit.
I may not agree with all of Vitamin's positions, but his are always articulate, lucid, and informed arguments. Reactionary? Possibly, but certainly not bullshit. I for one am glad he's here. I'd sure as hell take a board full of Vitamins over Archaics anyday. Archaic is on some next level meshugas (although the spirit of honesty I must confess a possible bias since I'm a Rothschild operative fully financed by the Shin Bet--on my most recent mission I was sent back in time to colaborate with Hitler!)
I didn't suggest banishment (and yes I have a right to tell you to leave, I died face down in the mud for that right). I suggested you voluntarily leave, cos everyone is tired of listening to your exhaustively researched reactionary bullshit.
I may not agree with all of Vitamin's positions, but his are always articulate, lucid, and informed arguments. Reactionary? Possibly, but certainly not bullshit. I for one am glad he's here. I'd sure as hell take a board full of Vitamins over Archaics anyday. Archaic is on some next level meshugas (although the spirit of honesty I must confess a possible bias since I'm a Rothschild operative fully financed by the Shin Bet--on my most recent mission I was sent back in time to colaborate with Hitler!)
Knock 'em out tha box, Danno!!!!!
The Copa sounds dope, Ben. We should try to go this weekend.
Amen! Nobody is ever clean! As such, how about discussing solutions as oppose to laying blame? So many are eager to condemn Israel as if it's the only blemish in an otherwise perfect world. There are too many injustices taking place as we type and yet people like Archaic seem to reserve a special vitriol for Israel. Nothing constructive can come from such denunciations. What do you gain by undermining Israeli legitimacy? The country's not going anywhere--to the chagrin of many I'm sure. We all seem to agree the situation is untenable; I suggest we consider resolutions and while I don't pretend to have answers, I do know they won't be found in extreme positions.
Give archaic a break for real he is playing devils advocate for the most part just presenting the other side of the story... Everyone is quick to jump down his throat and call him a Jew hater when all he did from my view is present an unpopular argument (if he said anywhere that he personally hated Jews I messe that). Personally the scarier view to me is Vitamin's becausae everything is black and white in his eyes, no greys, and not ability to put himself in another's shoes to see it from their perspective... Articulate, yes, convincing? no.
is it just me or does a hot towel on your ball sac feel really good?
you would think it would be painful, but a really warm...i guess almost hot towel on the nuts really feels good..
you know.. when you dont have time for a shower so you "sink wash" really good ..but it's ALWAYS FACE BEFORE BALLS ..so by the time you reheat and ring the towel out the water is at a nice warm temperature ...and when it hits the balls it's like AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!YES!!!!!!! whoooooo!!!!
Amen! Nobody is ever clean! As such, how about discussing solutions as oppose to laying blame? So many are eager to condemn Israel as if it's the only blemish in an otherwise perfect world. There are too many injustices taking place as we type and yet people like Archaic seem to reserve a special vitriol for Israel. Nothing constructive can come from such denunciations. What do you gain by undermining Israeli legitimacy? The country's not going anywhere--to the chagrin of many I'm sure. We all seem to agree the situation is untenable; I suggest we consider resolutions and while I don't pretend to have answers, I do know they won't be found in extreme positions.
is it just me or does a hot towel on your ball sac feel really good?
you would think it would be painful, but a really warm...i guess almost hot towel on the nuts really feels good..
you know.. when you dont have time for a shower so you "sink wash" really good ..but it's ALWAYS FACE BEFORE BALLS ..so by the time you reheat and ring the towel out the water is at a nice warm temperature ...and when it hits the balls it's like AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!YES!!!!!!! whoooooo!!!!
is it just me or does a hot towel on your ball sac feel really good?
you would think it would be painful, but a really warm...i guess almost hot towel on the nuts really feels good..
you know.. when you dont have time for a shower so you "sink wash" really good ..but it's ALWAYS FACE BEFORE BALLS ..so by the time you reheat and ring the towel out the water is at a nice warm temperature ...and when it hits the balls it's like AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!YES!!!!!!! whoooooo!!!!
Give archaic a break for real he is playing devils advocate for the most part just presenting the other side of the story... Everyone is quick to jump down his throat and call him a Jew hater when all he did from my view is present an unpopular argument (if he said anywhere that he personally hated Jews I messe that). Personally the scarier view to me is Vitamin's becausae everything is black and white in his eyes, no greys, and not ability to put himself in another's shoes to see it from their perspective... Articulate, yes, convincing? no.
Now as for a solution... nother 9 pager
I am not so sure about Archaic just playing devils advocate he sent both AI and me a PM in which he clearly stated his crazy conspiracy theory "the jews were in on the creation of Hitler germany" ideas.. I'd like to think he is just playing advocate but instead of thining it it would be nicer to see him just say it.
If you don't like it, don't read it. But you have no right to tell me to leave. I belong here just as much as anyone. And if you disagree with me, come up with an argument instead of suggesting banishment.
maybe you should contribute something besides delivering your lil neo-con reach around talking points?
do you like records?
Apparently he likes some records but hates "mash potato" records*
*Reference to earlier incarnation of this thread, when I still had 16[/b] corners
My position seems extreme because it is a genuine position. I stand 100% against the state of Israel...not because I hate Jews, but because I disagree with Israel's displacement of natives to the Holy Land with people who in many cases do not have blood ties to the region.
So much of the Zionist agenda is a farce.
I DON'T think that Jews necessarily had any sort of significant impact when it comes to conspiring with Nazis to hold Jews as a group responsible AT ALL for the Holocaust. That's merely a RIDICULOUS CONCLUSION that GUZZO has CONSTRUCTED in response to me contrasting what the Holocaust was like for Jews who could pass at times as Aryans versus the handicapped and Black Germans who had no chance but to be murdered.
In this American society that most of us have grown up with, Jews are not really a persecuted people. That does not erase the entirety of a rough Jewish history, but I do find it bothersome that American Jews make such a push to vault their already well-known World War II expereience to the point that other less-known genocides are marginalized in the very manner that Anti-Defamation drones accuse "anti-Semites" of "denying" the Holocaust.
As I've already mentioned the reason for considering the Holocaust as not just a one-time event that only pertained to Jews, is to better place it in the context of a recurring genocidal event that continues to happen to a wide array of human beings. Again, since the Holocaust...review the histories of Russia, Northern China, Southeast Asia, Africa, Latin America, Eastern Europe, etc.
And the thing is...the perpetrators of these events are most definitely in league with each other. Whether adhering to stringently idiotic socialist paradigms as an excuse for mass murder or utilizing similar tactics of genocide as prescribed by the College of the Americas, there is a common theme behind these events that needs to be highlighted so that we can one day learn to stop them before they happen.
So to me when someone compares a contempoarary dilemma to Nazi Germany, it's a good thing...for the connection to an event that we already know so well makes us more aware and proactive in an informed manner.
Resorting to anger every time someone says that their people are coming under fire with some immediate knee-jerk "oh yeah, you could never compare that to what MY people went through" is completely selfish and paranoid.
Noone could ever belittle what happened by way of the Holocaust.
It's ridiculous that so many get accused of doing just that just for trying to discuss the Holocaust from a non-Jew perspective. I came into this representing humans at large which includes the handicapped, Blacks, Gypsies, homosexuals, political dissdents, etc, right along with the Jews who were gassed by Hitler.
Furthermore, hell yes, look into how the same people who financed Nazi Germany are the same people financing Israel. And that's not to say that they are even Jewish. Look at the Rothschild's. Look at the Bush's.
There is a much bigger agenda at work here...and unfortunately for Jews who do want to believe in the righteousness of a Zionist Israeli state...y'all have IMO been manipulated to be standing on the wrong side of this worldwide globalist struggle.
It's the same thing with Americans who support the war in Iraq. In their hearts they believe that they are just. But the fact of the matter is that they have been manipulated into it.
Palestinians do fight dirty in response to seemingly insurmountable odds...yet of course there's manipulation there as well...as the overriding powers want to escalate the fighting more than they want to actually create peace.
But yeah, Alien was right when I said I came into this thread already waving my flag. I know where I stand and as much as y'all might want to think it does, my position DOES NOT include hating Jews.
Anyway something else Alien said...noone is clean...that is also true. But we all have the chance to dust ourselves off at any time...
Comments
Children, children please!
Damn, just because you guys disagree with him is no reason to hat.
V has records for days, and he knows his music.
Peace
Dan
Yes, I see what you're saying, that they could have used a white colour to show uninhabited areas, and then with the light yellow and blue. It's a bit like the US electoral map where they would show a whole state as being either red or blue when really the county-by-county view show a much more even picture. I think, though, that some of your objections are spoken to in the text below the figures, like in the first where they note that a third of the population is jewish residing in 7% of the land (and then, presumably, since I don't think that there was a wave of immigration during the war, that in 1949 you would still have a third of the population being jewish but now controlling 78% of the land). But yes, if you didn't read the text then I could see how it could be misleading.
Some of your best friends are Jews, right?
I may not agree with all of Vitamin's positions, but his are always articulate, lucid, and informed arguments. Reactionary? Possibly, but certainly not bullshit. I for one am glad he's here. I'd sure as hell take a board full of Vitamins over Archaics anyday. Archaic is on some next level meshugas (although the spirit of honesty I must confess a possible bias since I'm a Rothschild operative fully financed by the Shin Bet--on my most recent mission I was sent back in time to colaborate with Hitler!)
Knock 'em out tha box, Danno!!!!!
The Copa sounds dope, Ben. We should try to go this weekend.
Peace
h
Amen! Nobody is ever clean! As such, how about discussing solutions as oppose to laying blame? So many are eager to condemn Israel as if it's the only blemish in an otherwise perfect world. There are too many injustices taking place as we type and yet people like Archaic seem to reserve a special vitriol for Israel. Nothing constructive can come from such denunciations. What do you gain by undermining Israeli legitimacy? The country's not going anywhere--to the chagrin of many I'm sure. We all seem to agree the situation is untenable; I suggest we consider resolutions and while I don't pretend to have answers, I do know they won't be found in extreme positions.
Now as for a solution... nother 9 pager
you would think it would be painful, but a really warm...i guess almost hot towel on the nuts really feels good..
you know.. when you dont have time for a shower so you "sink wash" really good ..but it's ALWAYS FACE BEFORE BALLS ..so by the time you reheat and ring the towel out the water is at a nice warm temperature ...and when it hits the balls it's like AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!YES!!!!!!! whoooooo!!!!
TRUTH!!!!
chart please
TRUTH!!!!!
I am not so sure about Archaic just playing devils advocate he sent both AI and me a PM in which he clearly stated his crazy conspiracy theory "the jews were in on the creation of Hitler germany" ideas.. I'd like to think he is just playing advocate but instead of thining it it would be nicer to see him just say it.
Apparently he likes some records but hates "mash potato" records*
*Reference to earlier incarnation of this thread, when I still had 16[/b] corners
hey, those are original Eames office-group shell chairs (upholstered too). They get four stars for having good taste in furniture. ****
My position seems extreme because it is a genuine position. I stand 100% against the state of Israel...not because I hate Jews, but because I disagree with Israel's displacement of natives to the Holy Land with people who in many cases do not have blood ties to the region.
So much of the Zionist agenda is a farce.
I DON'T think that Jews necessarily had any sort of significant impact when it comes to conspiring with Nazis to hold Jews as a group responsible AT ALL for the Holocaust. That's merely a RIDICULOUS CONCLUSION that GUZZO has CONSTRUCTED in response to me contrasting what the Holocaust was like for Jews who could pass at times as Aryans versus the handicapped and Black Germans who had no chance but to be murdered.
In this American society that most of us have grown up with, Jews are not really a persecuted people. That does not erase the entirety of a rough Jewish history, but I do find it bothersome that American Jews make such a push to vault their already well-known World War II expereience to the point that other less-known genocides are marginalized in the very manner that Anti-Defamation drones accuse "anti-Semites" of "denying" the Holocaust.
As I've already mentioned the reason for considering the Holocaust as not just a one-time event that only pertained to Jews, is to better place it in the context of a recurring genocidal event that continues to happen to a wide array of human beings. Again, since the Holocaust...review the histories of Russia, Northern China, Southeast Asia, Africa, Latin America, Eastern Europe, etc.
And the thing is...the perpetrators of these events are most definitely in league with each other. Whether adhering to stringently idiotic socialist paradigms as an excuse for mass murder or utilizing similar tactics of genocide as prescribed by the College of the Americas, there is a common theme behind these events that needs to be highlighted so that we can one day learn to stop them before they happen.
So to me when someone compares a contempoarary dilemma to Nazi Germany, it's a good thing...for the connection to an event that we already know so well makes us more aware and proactive in an informed manner.
Resorting to anger every time someone says that their people are coming under fire with some immediate knee-jerk "oh yeah, you could never compare that to what MY people went through" is completely selfish and paranoid.
Noone could ever belittle what happened by way of the Holocaust.
It's ridiculous that so many get accused of doing just that just for trying to discuss the Holocaust from a non-Jew perspective. I came into this representing humans at large which includes the handicapped, Blacks, Gypsies, homosexuals, political dissdents, etc, right along with the Jews who were gassed by Hitler.
Furthermore, hell yes, look into how the same people who financed Nazi Germany are the same people financing Israel. And that's not to say that they are even Jewish. Look at the Rothschild's. Look at the Bush's.
There is a much bigger agenda at work here...and unfortunately for Jews who do want to believe in the righteousness of a Zionist Israeli state...y'all have IMO been manipulated to be standing on the wrong side of this worldwide globalist struggle.
It's the same thing with Americans who support the war in Iraq. In their hearts they believe that they are just. But the fact of the matter is that they have been manipulated into it.
Palestinians do fight dirty in response to seemingly insurmountable odds...yet of course there's manipulation there as well...as the overriding powers want to escalate the fighting more than they want to actually create peace.
But yeah, Alien was right when I said I came into this thread already waving my flag. I know where I stand and as much as y'all might want to think it does, my position DOES NOT include hating Jews.
Anyway something else Alien said...noone is clean...that is also true. But we all have the chance to dust ourselves off at any time...