The important thing to remember is that the police would not, could not, kick in his door and detain his entire family if they were to stroll by.
He lives in a well off community. The police do not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. I would argue they can not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. The reason police can use those tactics is because they are careful only to use them in poor/minority communities.
I give him props for opposing prohibition, even if he wont speak out against police abuses.
People who see nothing wrong with the police monitoring all American's telephone and internet activity, but are outraged that the police would kill a graff artist, need a more sophisticated world view.
The important thing to remember is that the police would not, could not, kick in his door and detain his entire family if they were to stroll by.
He lives in a well off gated community. The police do not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. I would argue they can not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. The reason police can use those tactics is because they are careful only to use them in poor/minority communities.
I give him props for opposing prohibition, even if he wont speak out against police abuses.
Last time you were at my house how many gates did you count in my "gated community"?
The important thing to remember is that the police would not, could not, kick in his door and detain his entire family if they were to stroll by.
He lives in a well off gated community. The police do not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. I would argue they can not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. The reason police can use those tactics is because they are careful only to use them in poor/minority communities.
I give him props for opposing prohibition, even if he wont speak out against police abuses.
Last time you were at my house how many gates did you count in my "gated community"?
Never been to your house. Never been invited.
But I seem to recall you mentioning that you lived in a gated community. Let me know if I am wrong and will edit out the word gated.
The important thing to remember is that the police would not, could not, kick in his door and detain his entire family if they were to stroll by.
He lives in a well off gated community. The police do not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. I would argue they can not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. The reason police can use those tactics is because they are careful only to use them in poor/minority communities.
I give him props for opposing prohibition, even if he wont speak out against police abuses.
Last time you were at my house how many gates did you count in my "gated community"?
Never been to your house. Never been invited.
But I seem to recall you mentioning that you lived in a gated community. Let me know if I am wrong and will edit out the word gated.
Does your community have a golf course?
I do not live in a gated community.....yes my town has a golf course.
I spent the first 10 years of my adult life in what would be called "the hood".
The next 12 in what would be called "middle class".
And the last 12 in what would be called "well off".
During all that time I have looked like a stereotype that the Police do not care for.
Regardless of where I was I never ran from, lurched at or disrespected a Police Officer .....these are things I have control over and it's the best advice I can give on the topic......if for some reason you disagree and thing posting "Fuck The Police" on a website is a better solution we'll just have to disagree......but then again, you thought you could stop a war with a piece of chalk......how's that working out?
The important thing to remember is that the police would not, could not, kick in his door and detain his entire family if they were to stroll by.
He lives in a well off gated community. The police do not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. I would argue they can not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. The reason police can use those tactics is because they are careful only to use them in poor/minority communities.
I give him props for opposing prohibition, even if he wont speak out against police abuses.
Last time you were at my house how many gates did you count in my "gated community"?
Never been to your house. Never been invited.
But I seem to recall you mentioning that you lived in a gated community. Let me know if I am wrong and will edit out the word gated.
Does your community have a golf course?
I do not live in a gated community
Thank you. I have corrected my original post.
Regardless of where I was I never ran from, lurched at or disrespected a Police Officer .....these are things I have control over and it's the best advice I can give on the topic......if for some reason you disagree and thing posting "Fuck The Police" on a website is a better solution we'll just have to disagree......but then again, you thought you could stop a war with a piece of chalk.
I never thought I could stop a war with a piece of chalk.
I have never written "fuck the police" on a website.
I would like to say FUCK YOU ASSHOLE, but I will refrain.
Instead I will say, thank you for correcting my misconception about your community being gated.
I never thought I could stop a war with a piece of chalk.
I have never written "fuck the police" on a website.
I would like to say FUCK YOU ASSHOLE, but I will refrain.
Instead I will say, thank you for correcting my misconception about your community being gated.
You're the one who made this personal, bringing up where and how I live as if that had anything to do with this topic.
Believe it or not I drive the same streets, go to the same bars, attend the same venues and have lived most of my life in the same place as you "common folks".
I won't stoop to cursing you, but will continue to be amazed at your unparalleled lack of intelligence.
People who see nothing wrong with the police monitoring all American's telephone and internet activity, but are outraged that the police would kill a graff artist, need a more sophisticated world view.
I care more about a dead kid than I do about a vastly impersonal monitoring system.
People who see nothing wrong with the police monitoring all American's telephone and internet activity, but are outraged that the police would kill a graff artist, need a more sophisticated world view.
People who see nothing wrong with the police monitoring all American's telephone and internet activity, but are outraged that the police would kill a graff artist, need a more sophisticated world view.
call me crazy, but i think you kids are gonna finally fix this crazy world of ours. keep up the good work you guys!
LOL.....Don't commit crimes and don't run away from the Police and your chances of this happening to you will be reduced significantly.
Says a guy who commits a crime on a near-daily basis.
b/w
But your crimes don't count.
If and when I break the law I recognize and accept the possible consequences that come along with it.
I also recognize that if I run from, drive away from or lurch towards a Police Officer those consequences might be exponentially worse.
There is a better chance to reduce these incidents by changing my behavior as a "criminal" than trying to change a bad cop.
So you just shrug and write off a kid's death because that's the way it goes.
A system where a cop can basically execute a kid over a misdemeanor is a sick one.
Though I think you're one no-knock warrant away from being more liberal on this issue than I am.
I'm not shrugging off shit.....the cops should be investigated and prosecuted if the findings call for it.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
More importantly I would use this to teach children just as I taught mine to not break the law and if you do be discreet and don't run from or lurch towards the police....we have more control over our actions than we do the police......It's hard for me to comprehend anyone not agreeing with this advice and it's really been the only point I've try to make in this thread.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
Did you just make a point for the other side?
In what other line of work is there only a 1% annual firing rate? That seems incredibly low. And of that number, how many are being fired for abusing the public?
Rich, the police in Texas can kick your door in and detain your entire family if they were to stroll by (fat chance!) and smell reefer.
Would you acknowledge that as just a consequence of your willingness to break the law?
Yes
They could also seize your house as a result of the arrest.
Not true.....the law that I specifically break in Texas is punishable with a mandatory sentence of probation and is not eligible for property forfeiture....a second time would be a different story.
Most property forfeiture in the U.S. is a done by the FBI and DEA.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
Did you just make a point for the other side?
In what other line of work is there only a 1% annual firing rate? That seems incredibly low. And of that number, how many are being fired for abusing the public?
The termination rate for public school teachers is close to 0.2% annually and 0.001% if they have tenure.
Federal workers overall have an annual termination rate of 0.02%
So in comparison to those two large groups police are terminated between 5 to 50 times more often.
Rich, the police in Texas can kick your door in and detain your entire family if they were to stroll by (fat chance!) and smell reefer.
Would you acknowledge that as just a consequence of your willingness to break the law?
Yes
They could also seize your house as a result of the arrest.
Not true.....the law that I specifically break in Texas is punishable with a mandatory sentence of probation and is not eligible for property forfeiture....a second time would be a different story.
Don't be so sure about that. They tend to seize the assets before conviction and good luck getting it back.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
Did you just make a point for the other side?
In what other line of work is there only a 1% annual firing rate? That seems incredibly low. And of that number, how many are being fired for abusing the public?
The termination rate for public school teachers is close to 0.2% annually and 0.001% if they have tenure.
Federal workers overall have an annual termination rate of 0.02%
So in comparison to those two large groups police are terminated between 5 to 50 times more often.
Again, I don't know the relevance of that statistic to the abuse discussion.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
Did you just make a point for the other side?
In what other line of work is there only a 1% annual firing rate? That seems incredibly low. And of that number, how many are being fired for abusing the public?
The termination rate for public school teachers is close to 0.2% annually and 0.001% if they have tenure.
Federal workers overall have an annual termination rate of 0.02%
So in comparison to those two large groups police are terminated between 5 to 50 times more often.
Again, I don't know the relevance of that statistic to the abuse discussion.
What's the source for these stats, by the way?
The Fed numbers are from the Office Of Personal Management (OPM) 1984 - 2001
The teacher stats are from Education Week magazine and the American Federation of Teachers.
The relevance is questionable beyond your statement that 1% seemed low vs. other lines of work.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
Did you just make a point for the other side?
In what other line of work is there only a 1% annual firing rate? That seems incredibly low. And of that number, how many are being fired for abusing the public?
The termination rate for public school teachers is close to 0.2% annually and 0.001% if they have tenure.
Federal workers overall have an annual termination rate of 0.02%
So in comparison to those two large groups police are terminated between 5 to 50 times more often.
Again, I don't know the relevance of that statistic to the abuse discussion.
What's the source for these stats, by the way?
The Fed numbers are from the Office Of Personal Management (OPM) 1984 - 2001
The teacher stats are from Education Week magazine and the American Federation of Teachers.
The relevance is questionable beyond your statement that 1% seemed low vs. other lines of work.
But you brought it up before I said that. So you must have thought it had relevance to the abuse discussion.
Although not as bad as the police violence mentioned in this thread is a more common and maybe more pernicious problem; cops lying in court. I have a few friends who are public defenders and they all told me that cops pretty much routinely lie on the stand to get convictions of their clients. My friends admit that many times (although not always) their clients are guilty of something, but not the thing the cops arrest them for, and the police officers just lie about the "facts" to secure a guilty verdict. Jurors are highly likely to believe anything a cop says on the witness stand, so there you go. Regarding police violence, I think it's part of a changing style of policing. Police used to come from the neighborhoods they patrolled often, and they had a beat that they walked everyday. They got to know people in the communities they worked in and had a knowledge of the people and a connection with at least some of them. Here in NYC now most of the cops live in the suburbs and patrol different areas all the time from a car, establishing little to no relationships with the people they are supposed to "serve and protect". They have often have an antagonistic relationship with the people on their beat, an "us against them" attitude.
We give these underpaid, undertrained, often fearful officers the ultimate power, that of life vs death, and not surprisingly, bad outcomes happen.
Although not as bad as the police violence mentioned in this thread is a more common and maybe more pernicious problem; cops lying in court. I have a few friends who are public defenders and they all told me that cops pretty much routinely lie on the stand to get convictions of their clients. My friends admit that many times (although not always) their clients are guilty of something, but not the thing the cops arrest them for, and the police officers just lie about the "facts" to secure a guilty verdict.
I've seen cops actually smirk on the stand when "testilying." I did a clerkship for a judge who said lying on the stand was standard police procedure, and that if it were possible to determine lying with scientific accuracy most cops would be sent up for perjury.
One of the most common lies is sometimes referred to as "the dropsies" in drug cases. Cops are chasing a suspected dealer, who conveniently drops a bag of drugs where the cops can easily find it because they claim they see him do it. Of course what really happens in most of these cases is that the cops frisk a guy without cause - but they won't say that because it could kill the case.
One of the most common lies is sometimes referred to as "the dropsies" in drug cases. Cops are chasing a suspected dealer, who conveniently drops a bag of drugs where the cops can easily find it because they claim they see him do it. Of course what really happens in most of these cases is that the cops frisk a guy without cause - but they won't say that because it could kill the case.
Are you saying that the cops frisk a guy without cause and then he runs and they chase him....or does he run, they chase him and then they frisk him?
Seems that if someone runs from Police they certainly have cause to frisk him.
One of the most common lies is sometimes referred to as "the dropsies" in drug cases. Cops are chasing a suspected dealer, who conveniently drops a bag of drugs where the cops can easily find it because they claim they see him do it. Of course what really happens in most of these cases is that the cops frisk a guy without cause - but they won't say that because it could kill the case.
Are you saying that the cops frisk a guy without cause and then he runs and they chase him....or does he run, they chase him and then they frisk him?
Seems that if someone runs from Police they certainly have cause to frisk him.
Comments
Would you acknowledge that as just a consequence of your willingness to break the law?
Yes
He lives in a well off community. The police do not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. I would argue they can not use those tactics in those neighborhoods. The reason police can use those tactics is because they are careful only to use them in poor/minority communities.
I give him props for opposing prohibition, even if he wont speak out against police abuses.
Last time you were at my house how many gates did you count in my "gated community"?
Never been to your house. Never been invited.
But I seem to recall you mentioning that you lived in a gated community. Let me know if I am wrong and will edit out the word gated.
Does your community have a golf course?
I do not live in a gated community.....yes my town has a golf course.
I spent the first 10 years of my adult life in what would be called "the hood".
The next 12 in what would be called "middle class".
And the last 12 in what would be called "well off".
During all that time I have looked like a stereotype that the Police do not care for.
Regardless of where I was I never ran from, lurched at or disrespected a Police Officer .....these are things I have control over and it's the best advice I can give on the topic......if for some reason you disagree and thing posting "Fuck The Police" on a website is a better solution we'll just have to disagree......but then again, you thought you could stop a war with a piece of chalk......how's that working out?
Thank you. I have corrected my original post.
I never thought I could stop a war with a piece of chalk.
I have never written "fuck the police" on a website.
I would like to say FUCK YOU ASSHOLE, but I will refrain.
Instead I will say, thank you for correcting my misconception about your community being gated.
You're the one who made this personal, bringing up where and how I live as if that had anything to do with this topic.
Believe it or not I drive the same streets, go to the same bars, attend the same venues and have lived most of my life in the same place as you "common folks".
I won't stoop to cursing you, but will continue to be amazed at your unparalleled lack of intelligence.
So you just shrug and write off a kid's death because that's the way it goes.
A system where a cop can basically execute a kid over a misdemeanor is a sick one.
Though I think you're one no-knock warrant away from being more liberal on this issue than I am.
They could also seize your house as a result of the arrest.
So would you roll over and plead guilty, accepting the consequences, or would you hire the best lawyer you could afford and try to beat the rap?
I care more about a dead kid than I do about a vastly impersonal monitoring system.
Sophisticate that.
"What do you call your act?"
"The Sophisticates!"
I'm not shrugging off shit.....the cops should be investigated and prosecuted if the findings call for it.
Cops do go to jail, 29 in Illinois alone over the last five years.....while almost 8,000 get terminated nationally for misconduct and poor job performance annually. (1% of the national total)
More importantly I would use this to teach children just as I taught mine to not break the law and if you do be discreet and don't run from or lurch towards the police....we have more control over our actions than we do the police......It's hard for me to comprehend anyone not agreeing with this advice and it's really been the only point I've try to make in this thread.
Did you just make a point for the other side?
In what other line of work is there only a 1% annual firing rate? That seems incredibly low. And of that number, how many are being fired for abusing the public?
Not true.....the law that I specifically break in Texas is punishable with a mandatory sentence of probation and is not eligible for property forfeiture....a second time would be a different story.
Most property forfeiture in the U.S. is a done by the FBI and DEA.
The termination rate for public school teachers is close to 0.2% annually and 0.001% if they have tenure.
Federal workers overall have an annual termination rate of 0.02%
So in comparison to those two large groups police are terminated between 5 to 50 times more often.
Don't be so sure about that. They tend to seize the assets before conviction and good luck getting it back.
http://www.ij.org/texas-civil-forfeiture-background
Be careful out there.
Again, I don't know the relevance of that statistic to the abuse discussion.
What's the source for these stats, by the way?
The Fed numbers are from the Office Of Personal Management (OPM) 1984 - 2001
The teacher stats are from Education Week magazine and the American Federation of Teachers.
The relevance is questionable beyond your statement that 1% seemed low vs. other lines of work.
But you brought it up before I said that. So you must have thought it had relevance to the abuse discussion.
I can only assume that "misconduct and poor performance" includes abuse and other illegal activities.
Knowing how strong the police unions are and how hard it is to fire people I doubt many of these terminations are based on insignificant actions.
We give these underpaid, undertrained, often fearful officers the ultimate power, that of life vs death, and not surprisingly, bad outcomes happen.
I've seen cops actually smirk on the stand when "testilying." I did a clerkship for a judge who said lying on the stand was standard police procedure, and that if it were possible to determine lying with scientific accuracy most cops would be sent up for perjury.
One of the most common lies is sometimes referred to as "the dropsies" in drug cases. Cops are chasing a suspected dealer, who conveniently drops a bag of drugs where the cops can easily find it because they claim they see him do it. Of course what really happens in most of these cases is that the cops frisk a guy without cause - but they won't say that because it could kill the case.
Me neither.
I kinda thought this was just common sense.
Evidently not.
Are you saying that the cops frisk a guy without cause and then he runs and they chase him....or does he run, they chase him and then they frisk him?
Seems that if someone runs from Police they certainly have cause to frisk him.
The lie covers all scenarios.
Your conclusion is what they count on.