went back and watched it again, knowing that it was way too tidy, and definitely found some major holes.
so when they brought jesse into the club house, right after saying they didnt want to kill walt in there... that seems pretty stupid. wouldnt they take walt out to jesse? and letting him park the car there? like they wouldn't be suspicious of a bomb?
went back and watched it again, knowing that it was way too tidy, and definitely found some major holes.
so when they brought jesse into the club house, right after saying they didnt want to kill walt in there... that seems pretty stupid. wouldnt they take walt out to jesse? and letting him park the car there? like they wouldn't be suspicious of a bomb?
what was with jesse's carpentry day-dream?
the entire "what did you say? did you question my neo-Nazi integrity?! now you just wait one darn minute mister; let me bring Jesse in here to show you how long his beard is and then we'll see what's what!!" was pretty tepid.
I took that to be a tie-in with the story he told in rehab about making the wooden box and feeling really proud of it, then, ultimately, selling it to buy some weed. He had found joy in making something, which is a memory he calls up to escape the fact that he's being forced to cook meth (making something and feeling the exact opposite of joy about it).
what about the video of his confession that is in the nazi clubhouse? What would have been their motive to destroy it? Did Jesse implicate then for the jail killings?
Didn't Jesse identify Todd as the person who killed that kid out in the desert?
went back and watched it again, knowing that it was way too tidy, and definitely found some major holes.
so when they brought jesse into the club house, right after saying they didnt want to kill walt in there... that seems pretty stupid. wouldnt they take walt out to jesse? and letting him park the car there? like they wouldn't be suspicious of a bomb?
what was with jesse's carpentry day-dream?
Saving Jesse wasn't part of the plan. Why would the aryans think he had a bomb? He was there to talk business in desperation and they underestimated him. What fucked Walt up was them taking his keys out his hands. Then he had to get desperate and grasp at straws. Which worked out
I was confused as to how nobody was onto Jesse at all. No heat?
what do you mean by this?
Hank and gomie really knew jesses history w the operation. No one else cared or was checking for him besides the ricin cops who didn't seem to know much about operation Heisenberg. Even though they saw them together in the hospital
I was confused as to how nobody was onto Jesse at all. No heat?
what do you mean by this?
How are Jesse and Walt partners that whole time and there's nothing that links Jesse to anything? Walt is public enemy # 1 in Albuquerque and Jesse is completely off the radar? Marie knows about Pinkman. If She's not supplying details then how did any of the cops know anything? Lots of evidence crumbs, so I'm just not buying the idea that he's free to start over, get a second chance, as Gilligan said on Talking Bad. Minor quibble.
I was confused as to how nobody was onto Jesse at all. No heat?
what do you mean by this?
How are Jesse and Walt partners that whole time and there's nothing that links Jesse to anything? Walt is public enemy # 1 in Albuquerque and Jesse is completely off the radar? Marie knows about Pinkman. If She's not supplying details then how did any of the cops know anything? Lots of evidence crumbs, so I'm just not buying the idea that he's free to start over, get a second chance, as Gilligan said on Talking Bad. Minor quibble.
NYTimes article had some good points.
Yea but no one knew jesses full involment. Marie just knew jesse was helping hank and nobody else knew anything until Flynn called the cops and Walt confesses it was all him when the cops are listening. After the nazi hideout is processed you could see them figureing out jesses involvement but that's another series. Jessie kiing Todd. Refusing to kill Walt and racing off works for me.
It was weird because the series has gradually gone darker and darker in the actions of certain characters, and this episode didn't have anyone stooping a step further, so felt kind of timid to me, even though it had a load of dead bodies. Can't really complain though.
The one thing I wish had been cleared up was the reason for Walt parting ways with Grey Matter
It was weird because the series has gradually gone darker and darker in the actions of certain characters, and this episode didn't have anyone stooping a step further, so felt kind of timid to me, even though it had a load of dead bodies. Can't really complain though.
The one thing I wish had been cleared up was the reason for Walt parting ways with Grey Matter
i can't remember exactly if it was implied or said but i thought it was because he was jealous of Gretchen growing relationship with Elliot and did what old Walt would do and stood back, ie walked from the company with a small pay off rather then face up to it
It was a good episode and a nice way to finish the series. It's not tough to pick holes in the plot and I don't really see the point in it.
I've been looking forward to the new episodes of Boardwalk Empire more. It looks like this is going to be another good season.
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
djwaxon said:
It was weird because the series has gradually gone darker and darker in the actions of certain characters, and this episode didn't have anyone stooping a step further, so felt kind of timid to me, even though it had a load of dead bodies. Can't really complain though.
The one thing I wish had been cleared up was the reason for Walt parting ways with Grey Matter
I really don't mind at all that not every side plot was given an explanation. I think that, overall, we were provided enough information to use our imagination concerning things like the Gray Matter backstory and Gus's previous life in Chile, and fill in the remaining gaps for ourselves.
I do have a bit of time for the idea that Ozymandias was the real end, though, and that between them Granite State and Felina were effectively an extended epilogue. Hank's murder, the subsequent robbery of the money and Walt's family turning their back on him was clearly the final destruction and obliteration of everything he'd worked for, and the subsequent two episodes dealt with him reflecting upon what he'd done and what it had cost him, and his finally seeing himself for what he was - which was the only way he could be allowed even those few slivers of redemption that were available to him. The irony being that he could only do that by becoming Heisenberg one final time. The ending, where he's wandering around the lab, quietly admiring his creation - and it was his, even if not literally - in one final display of pride and vanity, before we see him die as he stares at his reflection in the tank (brilliantly foreshadowed here) was stunning.
VG or the Gretchen actress's explained that Walt left her because he was unable to deal wih her privilege. They went on vacation, very much in love, to her parents' country house and Walt felt in over his head in their world of old money. He inexplicably packed up and left and proceeded to kill the relationship. Gray matter fiasco didn't create the resentful monster, his pride issues were always there
And thanks for the article! I agree that it was all very dream like and too neat and tidy. Walt was very mellow and just shuffling around. It would have truly been in BB fashion of tragedy that Walt dies frozen to death in the car. But that would have also been a sopranos style, no resolution ending
Likewise, not sure how I'd feel after seeing that though
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
Doing a related Google search earlier, I happened to see a headline that read; "Breaking Bad Gives Its Audience What They Want - But Is That A Good Thing?" That was enough to stop me reading any further. I mean, I didn't want to say this earlier in case it seemed like an outburst of asshurtedness over a simple difference of opinion, but the central premise of both that headline and the New Yorker piece asstro posted is bullshit imo. There are a few interesting things dotted here and there, but it's basically arguing for Bobby Ewing In The Shower, which is something no sane person should be putting forward. Who ever wanted an ending like that? Who ever sincerely believed that an audience would want it? Look at how Lost took six years and hour-upon-hour - shit, whole seasons' worth - of completely irrelevant plot threads just to get to the point where the viewers realised they'd been watching a 140-hour M. Night Shyamalan movie. Fuck that noise.
This Media Studies 101 notion that it's somehow a copout for a drama to resolve itself in a conventional way that largely satisfies the demands of its audience is just posturing. On one hand, it suggests that frustrating the expectations of the viewer at the last possible moment is the more worthwhile objective, while simultaneously arguing in favour of a very simplistic Old Testament moral resolution - Walt is A Bad Man, so he shouldn't be allowed "closure" or to die on his own terms. Punishment or nothing. Well, how is his end not punishment? He has lost literally everything. He dies alone, surrounded by nothing but the product of his own hubris, while the lives of everyone who survives him have been destroyed. He frees Jesse and kills Lydia and the Nazis, but it's the very definition of a Pyrrhic victory. I've always believed that one of the show's great unspoken strengths is its lack of sentimentality - right from the beginning, the viewer (and Walt) could see what an ugly business they were getting drawn into, yet there was never the sense of reaching for cheap emotion to prop up the drama. For Gilligan, Cranston and everyone else to pitch the ending in a way that managed to be both strangely uplifting and profoundly moving was magnificent and completely true to the integrity of the show.
I feel you doc. I still enjoyed the finale for many reasons. But it did feel a little too dot the is cross the ts. The only unexpected things was that it ended somewhat peacefully. Siked that Pete and badger contributed and got dough
I was glad that the finale gave me what I wanted.
I wanted to see walt be the bad ass smarter than everyone.
I wanted to see Lydia and Todd get done.
Letting Jesse kill Todd was just perfect.
Walt getting Lydia and Elliot to pay his family was awesome.
Got to see/hear some more nonsense from Skinny Pete and Badger.
Great show.
I still dont think that skyler giving up the bodies will help her out much if at all though, shes fucked. :(
DocMcCoy"Go and laugh in your own country!" 5,913 Posts
tripledouble said:
I also kind of like that one big loose string (besides huell) is the money. No one gets it!!
Yeah, I liked that too. The only two people to walk out of the clubhouse were the ones who didn't care about the money.
Doing a related Google search earlier, I happened to see a headline that read; "Breaking Bad Gives Its Audience What They Want - But Is That A Good Thing?" That was enough to stop me reading any further. I mean, I didn't want to say this earlier in case it seemed like an outburst of asshurtedness over a simple difference of opinion, but the central premise of both that headline and the New Yorker piece asstro posted is bullshit imo. There are a few interesting things dotted here and there, but it's basically arguing for Bobby Ewing In The Shower, which is something no sane person should be putting forward. Who ever wanted an ending like that? Who ever sincerely believed that an audience would want it? Look at how Lost took six years and hour-upon-hour - shit, whole seasons' worth - of completely irrelevant plot threads just to get to the point where the viewers realised they'd been watching a 140-hour M. Night Shyamalan movie. Fuck that noise.
This Media Studies 101 notion that it's somehow a copout for a drama to resolve itself in a conventional way that largely satisfies the demands of its audience is just posturing. On one hand, it suggests that frustrating the expectations of the viewer at the last possible moment is the more worthwhile objective, while simultaneously arguing in favour of a very simplistic Old Testament moral resolution - Walt is A Bad Man, so he shouldn't be allowed "closure" or to die on his own terms. Punishment or nothing. Well, how is his end not punishment? He has lost literally everything. He dies alone, surrounded by nothing but the product of his own hubris, while the lives of everyone who survives him have been destroyed. He frees Jesse and kills Lydia and the Nazis, but it's the very definition of a Pyrrhic victory. I've always believed that one of the show's great unspoken strengths is its lack of sentimentality - right from the beginning, the viewer (and Walt) could see what an ugly business they were getting drawn into, yet there was never the sense of reaching for cheap emotion to prop up the drama. For Gilligan, Cranston and everyone else to pitch the ending in a way that managed to be both strangely uplifting and profoundly moving was magnificent and completely true to the integrity of the show.
wasn't Bobby Ewing in the shower a hamfisted attempt to wipe away an entire season? That's not on par with the single final episode of BB turning out to have been a dying fantasy, especially if, as people keep saying, the show had already effectively ended in the 2nd- and 3rd-to-last episodes anyway.
For me, it was a great ending. After the finale, I immediately went back and watched the pilot. I do the same thing when I finish a great book. I think it is really telling when you read the first chapter or two and the characters just don't ring out as the same people. Walt's transformation was apparent from the beginning. He cooked meth, made a sack of cash and killed two people in the first episode and it made him feel alive. It was exactly what he conveyed to Skyler. Also, the little speech to his class about chemistry, change and transformation is just spot on with the whole show. This show benefited from a very well defined and executed vision. Props to Gilligan!
I agree that the finale was just a bit too pat but I enjoyed the scene with the scwartzes tremendously. The show could have ended with izymandias episode as doc said...
i also agree that the final episode was 100% perfect in that it was exactly what it needed to be. clever but not too clever, and every character played itself out to it's painful, joyful and obvious end.
walter going to such great lengths to tie up all of the loose ends can be chalked up to just another example of his extreme pride/ego. he didnt do anything in the finale for any reason other than he wanted to. he didnt do it all because it was the right thing to do, he did it because he he wanted it to be by his accord, by his rules, with his genius.
i think mr McCoy also has this nailed down with the efficiency of te show itself.
I remember watching the first episode (on a weird drug comedown) and now I've seen the last (with my one yr-old child sleeping in the next room). I'm being sentimental. A lot's happened.
I'm glad they tied up most of the loose ends. A sense of closure has been achieved. However I don't think Jesse is going to live a long and prosperous life.
I like this tribute sequence. To remember all the deaths.
It was weird because the series has gradually gone darker and darker in the actions of certain characters, and this episode didn't have anyone stooping a step further, so felt kind of timid to me, even though it had a load of dead bodies. Can't really complain though.
The one thing I wish had been cleared up was the reason for Walt parting ways with Grey Matter
i can't remember exactly if it was implied or said but i thought it was because he was jealous of Gretchen growing relationship with Elliot and did what old Walt would do and stood back, ie walked from the company with a small pay off rather then face up to it
This is pretty much it. He was originally dating Gretchen and he had a lot of the great ideas for Grey Matter but couldn't stand up for him self and Gretchen and Elliot ran off with the success.
And thanks for the article! I agree that it was all very dream like and too neat and tidy. Walt was very mellow and just shuffling around. It would have truly been in BB fashion of tragedy that Walt dies frozen to death in the car. But that would have also been a sopranos style, no resolution ending
Plus "it was only a dream" is old news going back to the Dallas TV show in the 80's all the way up to that last Twilight movie. Let's face it, we wanted a higher body count. Walt showing everyone how smart he is one more time, rescuing Jesse and dying on a meth lab floor with a smile is way better. Walt was a horrible person, but at least he took some horrible people with him.
Comments
so when they brought jesse into the club house, right after saying they didnt want to kill walt in there... that seems pretty stupid. wouldnt they take walt out to jesse? and letting him park the car there? like they wouldn't be suspicious of a bomb?
what was with jesse's carpentry day-dream?
the entire "what did you say? did you question my neo-Nazi integrity?! now you just wait one darn minute mister; let me bring Jesse in here to show you how long his beard is and then we'll see what's what!!" was pretty tepid.
I took that to be a tie-in with the story he told in rehab about making the wooden box and feeling really proud of it, then, ultimately, selling it to buy some weed. He had found joy in making something, which is a memory he calls up to escape the fact that he's being forced to cook meth (making something and feeling the exact opposite of joy about it).
Didn't Jesse identify Todd as the person who killed that kid out in the desert?
Saving Jesse wasn't part of the plan. Why would the aryans think he had a bomb? He was there to talk business in desperation and they underestimated him. What fucked Walt up was them taking his keys out his hands. Then he had to get desperate and grasp at straws. Which worked out
Hank and gomie really knew jesses history w the operation. No one else cared or was checking for him besides the ricin cops who didn't seem to know much about operation Heisenberg. Even though they saw them together in the hospital
How are Jesse and Walt partners that whole time and there's nothing that links Jesse to anything? Walt is public enemy # 1 in Albuquerque and Jesse is completely off the radar? Marie knows about Pinkman. If She's not supplying details then how did any of the cops know anything? Lots of evidence crumbs, so I'm just not buying the idea that he's free to start over, get a second chance, as Gilligan said on Talking Bad. Minor quibble.
NYTimes article had some good points.
Yea but no one knew jesses full involment. Marie just knew jesse was helping hank and nobody else knew anything until Flynn called the cops and Walt confesses it was all him when the cops are listening. After the nazi hideout is processed you could see them figureing out jesses involvement but that's another series. Jessie kiing Todd. Refusing to kill Walt and racing off works for me.
The one thing I wish had been cleared up was the reason for Walt parting ways with Grey Matter
i can't remember exactly if it was implied or said but i thought it was because he was jealous of Gretchen growing relationship with Elliot and did what old Walt would do and stood back, ie walked from the company with a small pay off rather then face up to it
I've been looking forward to the new episodes of Boardwalk Empire more. It looks like this is going to be another good season.
I really don't mind at all that not every side plot was given an explanation. I think that, overall, we were provided enough information to use our imagination concerning things like the Gray Matter backstory and Gus's previous life in Chile, and fill in the remaining gaps for ourselves.
I do have a bit of time for the idea that Ozymandias was the real end, though, and that between them Granite State and Felina were effectively an extended epilogue. Hank's murder, the subsequent robbery of the money and Walt's family turning their back on him was clearly the final destruction and obliteration of everything he'd worked for, and the subsequent two episodes dealt with him reflecting upon what he'd done and what it had cost him, and his finally seeing himself for what he was - which was the only way he could be allowed even those few slivers of redemption that were available to him. The irony being that he could only do that by becoming Heisenberg one final time. The ending, where he's wandering around the lab, quietly admiring his creation - and it was his, even if not literally - in one final display of pride and vanity, before we see him die as he stares at his reflection in the tank (brilliantly foreshadowed here) was stunning.
In the lab and actually spark up some of the blue
This Media Studies 101 notion that it's somehow a copout for a drama to resolve itself in a conventional way that largely satisfies the demands of its audience is just posturing. On one hand, it suggests that frustrating the expectations of the viewer at the last possible moment is the more worthwhile objective, while simultaneously arguing in favour of a very simplistic Old Testament moral resolution - Walt is A Bad Man, so he shouldn't be allowed "closure" or to die on his own terms. Punishment or nothing. Well, how is his end not punishment? He has lost literally everything. He dies alone, surrounded by nothing but the product of his own hubris, while the lives of everyone who survives him have been destroyed. He frees Jesse and kills Lydia and the Nazis, but it's the very definition of a Pyrrhic victory. I've always believed that one of the show's great unspoken strengths is its lack of sentimentality - right from the beginning, the viewer (and Walt) could see what an ugly business they were getting drawn into, yet there was never the sense of reaching for cheap emotion to prop up the drama. For Gilligan, Cranston and everyone else to pitch the ending in a way that managed to be both strangely uplifting and profoundly moving was magnificent and completely true to the integrity of the show.
I wanted to see walt be the bad ass smarter than everyone.
I wanted to see Lydia and Todd get done.
Letting Jesse kill Todd was just perfect.
Walt getting Lydia and Elliot to pay his family was awesome.
Got to see/hear some more nonsense from Skinny Pete and Badger.
Great show.
I still dont think that skyler giving up the bodies will help her out much if at all though, shes fucked. :(
Yeah, I liked that too. The only two people to walk out of the clubhouse were the ones who didn't care about the money.
wasn't Bobby Ewing in the shower a hamfisted attempt to wipe away an entire season? That's not on par with the single final episode of BB turning out to have been a dying fantasy, especially if, as people keep saying, the show had already effectively ended in the 2nd- and 3rd-to-last episodes anyway.
walter going to such great lengths to tie up all of the loose ends can be chalked up to just another example of his extreme pride/ego. he didnt do anything in the finale for any reason other than he wanted to. he didnt do it all because it was the right thing to do, he did it because he he wanted it to be by his accord, by his rules, with his genius.
i think mr McCoy also has this nailed down with the efficiency of te show itself.
high fives all around. great five years spent.
I'm glad they tied up most of the loose ends. A sense of closure has been achieved. However I don't think Jesse is going to live a long and prosperous life.
I like this tribute sequence. To remember all the deaths.
This is pretty much it. He was originally dating Gretchen and he had a lot of the great ideas for Grey Matter but couldn't stand up for him self and Gretchen and Elliot ran off with the success.
Plus "it was only a dream" is old news going back to the Dallas TV show in the 80's all the way up to that last Twilight movie. Let's face it, we wanted a higher body count. Walt showing everyone how smart he is one more time, rescuing Jesse and dying on a meth lab floor with a smile is way better. Walt was a horrible person, but at least he took some horrible people with him.