That's not really true. I know that compared to say Prince or Steely Dan or the Beach Boys it might not seem like much, but making 3 chord punk rock songs that are as memorable and tuneful as the Ramones is much harder than they made it look. I think most musicians would be able to recognize just how hard it is these days.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Is the Brit contingent really bringing in calculators and scientists to attempt to prove that Van Halen is not the best American rock band ever?
That's not really true. I know that compared to say Prince or Steely Dan or the Beach Boys it might not seem like much, but making 3 chord punk rock songs that are as memorable and tuneful as the Ramones is much harder than they made it look. I think most musicians would be able to recognize just how hard it is these days.
Im not really talking about whether is good or hard, but when dudes bring up songwriting the Barometer is usual the Prince's and the Dan or some Stevie wonder shit.
Is the Brit contingent really bringing in calculators and scientists to attempt to prove that Van Halen is not the best American rock band ever?
I give EVH props for the solo on Beat It and playing on the dl on Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables, but as for the rest, you are welcome to keep it in your trench.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
skel said:
HarveyCanal said:
Is the Brit contingent really bringing in calculators and scientists to attempt to prove that Van Halen is not the best American rock band ever?
I give EVH props for the solo on Beat It and playing on the dl on Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables, but as for the rest, you are welcome to keep it in your trench.
Cool, just let me know when the Best English Breakfast Tea thread pops up, so I can provide y'all a definitive answer there too.
Since there is no way to answer this question objectively, it should be answered subjectively. Using stats like years active and # of hits is just an attempt to make it objective.
I say screw all that. What about quality of songs (writing and performance)? Surely the greatest US rock song must have been released by the greatest US rock band, no?
Also, where does image come into play?
Isnt "Performance" and "Writing" the same STATS as "image" and "popularity".
Cant one like a SONG with out seeing the band on a record cover/magazine/TV or seeing them perform live?
I think you can like it, but I think that's about as far as you can go without some kind of image to attach to it, even if said image is just your own speculation based on something you read or heard somewhere or something you think you read or heard somewhere or some name on the back cover or some illegible thumbprint-sized band photo on the j-card or whatever. Who doesn't want their favorite artists to exist in three dimensions?
I think Otis is off-base, but at the same time, I don't think "image" and "popularity" are dirty words.
You don't think Bad Brains owe a great deal to image? Has there ever been an important band anywhere that was truly faceless?
I didnt get to see what Big Daddy Kane looked like for a while after I first heard Rhymin With Biz.
I knew dude could rap. And the song was fresh. All the other STATS came later.
Some joints just came on the radio and they didnt have a video, i didnt have their album or saw whomever on Soul Train, Solid Gold or Tiger Beat.
I didnt know Teena Marie was white, but the SONG was damn good.
blah blah blah
Eh, I think your definition of "image" is more literal than mine, but okay.
And whatever the Ramones' genius, it is not in the songwriting/lyrics. Dudes are reaching. I'll agree that it's a cut above a lot of punk stuff and harder than it looks and all that, but that's like being the prettiest gorilla.
That said, I'm blanking on the song title, but the line about sitting there in Queens and eating refried beans and gulping down Thorazines and being in all the magazines is pretty fucking cherce.
That's not really true. I know that compared to say Prince or Steely Dan or the Beach Boys it might not seem like much, but making 3 chord punk rock songs that are as memorable and tuneful as the Ramones is much harder than they made it look. I think most musicians would be able to recognize just how hard it is these days.
Im not really talking about whether is good or hard, but when dudes bring up songwriting the Barometer is usual the Prince's and the Dan or some Stevie wonder shit.
Tangent shit.
To be clear, Ramones had their 'punk' superiors in every measurable part that makes up the whole of a band (word to Harvey).
Better playing by the Dickies.
Better song craft by the Buzzcocks.
More energy from the Dead Kennedies.
More popularity for the. Clash.
Yadayadayada
But luckily, for all of us into music actually, greatness isn't measurable, except insofar as you know who has it and who hasn't,
And whilst all the above had it, there comes a band for whom you cannot explain the source of their greatness, and it is these you confer GOATness upon.
Is the Brit contingent really bringing in calculators and scientists to attempt to prove that Van Halen is not the best American rock band ever?
Pay those dudes at the University of East Anglia enough cash and they'll produce stats that prove The Wombles were the greatest rock band on the planet!!
Funny how the greatest rock bands are obviously from the UK... But all those band unabashedly stole from US negro blues?
Not to take away from UK rock bands, but I'm convinced there is nothing this world loves more than white British singers who can sing almost as well as African-American singers. (See: Grammys)
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Okay, now for my private mindgarden pick:
Screaming Trees > All of Britain Ever - Black Sabbath.
Funny how the greatest rock bands are obviously from the UK... But all those band unabashedly stole from US negro blues?
isn't this what all the great white American rock bands did as well?
No??? American Rock Bands COPIED UK Rock Bands. All the bands on the list are heavily influenced by Stones, Beatles, Zeppelin...
:zooted:
Stooges, VU, Ramones = NOT influenced by UK bands.
well, i would say all three were really influenced by mid 60's UK mod rock n blues stuff, it just wasn't, in all 3 cases, their greatest influence or the part that made them unique... like you know the Stooges listened to the Stones and the Yardbirds, but it was prob more "important" that they listened to Pharoah Sanders and Sun Ra, in terms of what made them different...
i think the definition of longitivity should be having at least THREE GREAT RECORDS... it's hard to ask for more than that from a rock band...
popularity is an entirely different issue... i love bad brains, the modern lovers, VU, MC5, stooges, etc, but it's hard to say they are THE BEST AMERICAN ROCK BAND...
also, a big part for me is which band you'd like to see live...
I find it a bit depressing that the convo always slips back to influence, appropriation, stealing.
The baton gets passed from generation to generation, place to place.
It goes from The Delta to Memphis to Liverpool to the Home Counties to SF to Detroit to NY to London to Manchester to Seattle. Wherever.
It doesn't belong to you or me or anyone.
It just is.
And I for one do not give a flying shit who stole what from where, who ganked him or her, who was the innovator of this or that.
It's all and only about putting the needle to the vinyl, and feeling, really feeling, does it move yo ass, does it churn your guts, does it transport your head to a place of fantasy and wonder; does it hit you right there (insert fist to heart gesture)?
And if you really need backstory, historic influence timelines, Gant charts and god knows what to help you process it, I suggest you're doing it wrong.
I find it a bit depressing that the convo always slips back to influence, appropriation, stealing.
The baton gets passed from generation to generation, place to place.
It goes from The Delta to Memphis to Liverpool to the Home Counties to SF to Detroit to NY to London to Manchester to Seattle. Wherever.
It doesn't belong to you or me or anyone.
It just is.
And I for one do not give a flying shit who stole what from where, who ganked him or her, who was the innovator of this or that.
It's all and only about putting the needle to the vinyl, and feeling, really feeling, does it move yo ass, does it churn your guts, does it transport your head to a place of fantasy and wonder; does it hit you right there (insert fist to heart gesture)?
And if you really need backstory, historic influence timelines, Gant charts and god knows what to help you process it, I suggest you're doing it wrong.
Snarky interlude from HC up next.
The best rock bands are from the UK. To say ZZ Top is our best example of a rock band is depressing. I mean "Four Sticks" by Zeppelin is better than anything these bands have done??? Aerosmith? Barf.
If you were to make a worldwide top 50 rock bands, I think most everyone here will end up with double digit numbers of US bands and a similar number of British ones. ROTW be lucky to hit 10.
Anyone who thinks otherwise, I call bullschitt.
Admittedly, on seeing the call for ZZ Top and Van Halen, it's clear that ROTW folks have little appreciation of what plays in the US trench, nor why.
But really though, ZZ Top? GOAT American rock band?
C'mon son.
ZZ Top is the more hirsute ying to Status Quo's yang. It is what it is. There is a humour and honesty in their fayre which would prevent the casting of rotten tomatoes in their direction, at least from this corner of the auditorium.
Comments
Im not really talking about whether is good or hard, but when dudes bring up songwriting the Barometer is usual the Prince's and the Dan or some Stevie wonder shit.
Tangent shit.
I give EVH props for the solo on Beat It and playing on the dl on Fresh Fruit For Rotting Vegetables, but as for the rest, you are welcome to keep it in your trench.
Cool, just let me know when the Best English Breakfast Tea thread pops up, so I can provide y'all a definitive answer there too.
And whatever the Ramones' genius, it is not in the songwriting/lyrics. Dudes are reaching. I'll agree that it's a cut above a lot of punk stuff and harder than it looks and all that, but that's like being the prettiest gorilla.
That said, I'm blanking on the song title, but the line about sitting there in Queens and eating refried beans and gulping down Thorazines and being in all the magazines is pretty fucking cherce.
To be clear, Ramones had their 'punk' superiors in every measurable part that makes up the whole of a band (word to Harvey).
Better playing by the Dickies.
Better song craft by the Buzzcocks.
More energy from the Dead Kennedies.
More popularity for the. Clash.
Yadayadayada
But luckily, for all of us into music actually, greatness isn't measurable, except insofar as you know who has it and who hasn't,
And whilst all the above had it, there comes a band for whom you cannot explain the source of their greatness, and it is these you confer GOATness upon.
Pay those dudes at the University of East Anglia enough cash and they'll produce stats that prove The Wombles were the greatest rock band on the planet!!
Chris Spedding FTW.
Pistols-R
"Beat On The Batt With A Baseball Bat"
Shit got quiet.
Hellooooooooooooooooo?
:hijack:
Screaming Trees > All of Britain Ever - Black Sabbath.
The Kinks didn't, to my ears.
Yes, they covered R&B songs early on, but that influence sounded distinctly second hand. After a couple of years, they moved away from that.
isn't this what all the great white American rock bands did as well?
No??? American Rock Bands COPIED UK Rock Bands. All the bands on the list are heavily influenced by Stones, Beatles, Zeppelin...
:zooted:
Elvis was before them.
Stooges, VU, Ramones = NOT influenced by UK bands.
We're talking about bands, not single artists.
well, i would say all three were really influenced by mid 60's UK mod rock n blues stuff, it just wasn't, in all 3 cases, their greatest influence or the part that made them unique... like you know the Stooges listened to the Stones and the Yardbirds, but it was prob more "important" that they listened to Pharoah Sanders and Sun Ra, in terms of what made them different...
e street
halen
beach boys
funkadelic
bad brains
VU
ramones
kiss
aerosmith
stooges
ccr
3 dog night (lolz)
skynyrd
zz top
popularity is an entirely different issue... i love bad brains, the modern lovers, VU, MC5, stooges, etc, but it's hard to say they are THE BEST AMERICAN ROCK BAND...
also, a big part for me is which band you'd like to see live...
fuck all haters
The baton gets passed from generation to generation, place to place.
It goes from The Delta to Memphis to Liverpool to the Home Counties to SF to Detroit to NY to London to Manchester to Seattle. Wherever.
It doesn't belong to you or me or anyone.
It just is.
And I for one do not give a flying shit who stole what from where, who ganked him or her, who was the innovator of this or that.
It's all and only about putting the needle to the vinyl, and feeling, really feeling, does it move yo ass, does it churn your guts, does it transport your head to a place of fantasy and wonder; does it hit you right there (insert fist to heart gesture)?
And if you really need backstory, historic influence timelines, Gant charts and god knows what to help you process it, I suggest you're doing it wrong.
Snarky interlude from HC up next.
The best rock bands are from the UK. To say ZZ Top is our best example of a rock band is depressing. I mean "Four Sticks" by Zeppelin is better than anything these bands have done??? Aerosmith? Barf.
Anyone who thinks otherwise, I call bullschitt.
Admittedly, on seeing the call for ZZ Top and Van Halen, it's clear that ROTW folks have little appreciation of what plays in the US trench, nor why.
But really though, ZZ Top? GOAT American rock band?
C'mon son.
Which is a happy coincidence, because we don't take theirselves seriously either, certainly not as GOAT American rock band.