BTW: if this signals a prog-rap moment, then that means punk-rap is about to come back into vogue
you're joking, but punk rap is exactly what I would call a lot of current stuff, from Waka Flaka to the Odd Future crew.
I logged in specifically to make this point, but then saw that you had done it for me.
It's an imperfect analogy, but it's definitely already in full swing, and I think I would probably trace its point of origin to Soulja Boy emerging into national consciousness three years ago--a 17 year old making lo-fi music in his bedroom and overtly rejecting many of the values of older fans/artists/critics/etc. I think Soulja Boy's approach really resonated with a lot of young people and, even though others have taken his approach further and done more interesting things with it, his importance should be recognized. Noz also did some writing recently about the significance of Soulja Boy's age--since the mid-nineties rap has skewed steadily older, and Soulja's emergence marked the return of a significant self-directed teenage voice.
All great points (though it also points out how my original joke about punk-rap doesn't really work as analogy given what punk itself meant in its moment, i.e. it's more than just validating a teenage voice).
So where does Kanye fit into this? Because it would seem to me, his productivity skews to the generation that came before what you're describing here, esp. with this new album.
I wouldn't suggest that he does. He is simply a fellow traveler, and he is definitely aware of this aesthetic movement and has selectively incorporated its influence into his own work. Word is he is a based head on the low. If the emergence of this aesthetic is to be read as a reaction to anything, I would point to stuff like Drake, BoB, Nick Minaj's album and the general label-driven trend of not letting rappers rap or attempting to hide the fact that they rap, i.e., what I see as a fundamental shifting of the goal posts away from rap's core values. These artists can be read as an aggressive purging of that bloat.
Also: I would never suggest that the importance of this music is limited to validating a teenage voice or that it is in any way less significant than what punk meant in its moment (whatever that was; it may well mean more now than it did at the time). It's very different, but the difference is certainly not that it matters less.
I gotta agree here - as much as Public Enemy created a persona for themselves, at least Chuck D can and has made that persona credible. If Kanye started talking revolution and shit? After the five albums he's put out? It wouldn't just be "surprising," I think it'd be completely unconvincing.
I gotta agree here - as much as Public Enemy created a persona for themselves, at least Chuck D can and has made that persona credible. If Kanye started talking revolution and shit? After the five albums he's put out? It wouldn't just be "surprising," I think it'd be completely unconvincing.
I gotta agree here - as much as Public Enemy created a persona for themselves, at least Chuck D can and has made that persona credible. If Kanye started talking revolution and shit? After the five albums he's put out? It wouldn't just be "surprising," I think it'd be completely unconvincing.
because Kanye being "convincing" is fundamental to him being a great artist. SMH. snoop can do country, why can't ye do the math? the point isn't whether he should, the point is whether he could or can or would. the point is that his claims of granduer can't be backed up when he's making the same cookie cutter album, albeit with a few longer songs. Arent we all expected to be surprised by his new work (al the cover art, etc) Wouldn't a thought provoking musical or creative turn be in line? Abandoning all ties to previous success to make an artistic decision?
I gotta agree here - as much as Public Enemy created a persona for themselves, at least Chuck D can and has made that persona credible. If Kanye started talking revolution and shit? After the five albums he's put out? It wouldn't just be "surprising," I think it'd be completely unconvincing.
because Kanye being "convincing" is fundamental to him being a great artist. SMH. snoop can do country, why can't ye do the math? the point isn't whether he should, the point is whether he could or can or would. the point is that his claims of granduer can't be backed up when he's making the same cookie cutter album, albeit with a few longer songs. Arent we all expected to be surprised by his new work (al the cover art, etc) Wouldn't a thought provoking musical or creative turn be in line? Abandoning all ties to previous success to make an artistic decision?
Your whole argument relies on characterizing his current album as just more of the same; the problem is that almost nobody besides you thinks that.
my argument relies on Kanye's current album not living up to the grandiosity it claims to contain. whatever man, i'm glad you guys are enjoying it. have a good thanksgiving.
I gotta agree here - as much as Public Enemy created a persona for themselves, at least Chuck D can and has made that persona credible. If Kanye started talking revolution and shit? After the five albums he's put out? It wouldn't just be "surprising," I think it'd be completely unconvincing.
because Kanye being "convincing" is fundamental to him being a great artist. SMH. snoop can do country, why can't ye do the math? the point isn't whether he should, the point is whether he could or can or would. the point is that his claims of granduer can't be backed up when he's making the same cookie cutter album, albeit with a few longer songs. Arent we all expected to be surprised by his new work (al the cover art, etc) Wouldn't a thought provoking musical or creative turn be in line? Abandoning all ties to previous success to make an artistic decision?
Your whole argument relies on characterizing his current album as just more of the same; the problem is that almost nobody besides you thinks that.
I don't think what Kanye does is "cookie cutter" in the least but I also don't think what he does on MBDTF is radically different from his previous albums. It is considerably more elaborate and baroque and just BIGGER (but not necessarily better). And not head-twistingly different. But hey, that's part of the subjective listening experience.
Also: I would never suggest that the importance of this music is limited to validating a teenage voice or that it is in any way less significant than what punk meant in its moment (whatever that was; it may well mean more now than it did at the time). It's very different, but the difference is certainly not that it matters less.
What I was trying to say is that all these genres from the past that we want to apply to the present can't work since the cultural moments in which they happen are unique to their time. When I was talking about punk-rap, I was being jokingly facile about what I was representing punk as, i.e. youth-driven, reactionary, stripped down - but punk (like hip-hop) can't be reduced to just soundbite generalizations, as if any other music style that shares those characteristics is truly comparable.
But as to the question of mattering the same/less/more, I think what James wrote earlier is relevant here given the increased atomization of listener tastes. I don't really buy into the ideal of the "monoculture" that baby boomers toss around - there was always specialization in tastes - but while Souljah Boy and his peers may very well be "meaningful" in a similar fashion to how previous youth-lead musical styles have been, I don't know if one can create a useful metric to evaluating whether their movement "matters" more/less/the same as previous ones given that the cultural context in which these things occur aren't comparably identical.
I didn't suggest that you could do a quantitative comparison; I said only that I would not do one. I think these intergenre comparisons, while they may be momentarily provocative, are worth very little.
I gotta agree here - as much as Public Enemy created a persona for themselves, at least Chuck D can and has made that persona credible. If Kanye started talking revolution and shit? After the five albums he's put out? It wouldn't just be "surprising," I think it'd be completely unconvincing.
because Kanye being "convincing" is fundamental to him being a great artist. SMH. snoop can do country, why can't ye do the math? the point isn't whether he should, the point is whether he could or can or would. the point is that his claims of granduer can't be backed up when he's making the same cookie cutter album, albeit with a few longer songs. Arent we all expected to be surprised by his new work (al the cover art, etc) Wouldn't a thought provoking musical or creative turn be in line? Abandoning all ties to previous success to make an artistic decision?
Your whole argument relies on characterizing his current album as just more of the same; the problem is that almost nobody besides you thinks that.
I don't think what Kanye does is "cookie cutter" in the least but I also don't think what he does on MBDTF is radically different from his previous albums. It is considerably more elaborate and baroque and just BIGGER (but not necessarily better). And not head-twistingly different. But hey, that's part of the subjective listening experience.
I read your review, and I think you're also missing something in this album. If I have time this evening I will elaborate on what I am hearing but, suffice it to say, I find it to be different from anything I have encountered in rap to date.
Does punk rap also mean a resurgence of nu-metal? Can the one noz speak on it?
Listened to a few tracks. Good to hear RZA sounding hungry and Jay on Monster is what he's been needing on his solos
The other night I listened all the way through My Homies--indisputably the low point in Scarface's discography--and was unpleasantly surprised by a nu-metal collabo hidden at the end of the second disc. I don't know whether I had blocked the existence of this song out of my memory or had just been too fatigued to ever make it to the end of that bumpy second disc, but this track is basically the noz holy grail.
I read your review, and I think you're also missing something in this album. If I have time this evening I will elaborate on what I am hearing but, suffice it to say, I find it to be different from anything I have encountered in rap to date.
I look forward to it.
Here's the thing - and upon hindsight, I wish I had thought to say this at the time - but I think this is one of the most ambitious *rap* albums ever made. And as I did say, I like and admire that ambition. I'd rather Kanye reach and fall short then not bother trying (and to be sure, i don't think it's in Kanye to NOT try). However, to me, it doesn't always execute well on those ambitions and that's where my impression ultimately turned.
yeah but imagine what would happen if Kanye came back on some Black liberation shit education for the nation shit.
Kanye did come back on some Black liberation schitt. You just aren't listening.
Hahaha yeah man not for nothing bro but I hear it too...
Ok, well I guess i missed that. I suppose i'm still mad about this:
On 'Today' (weekdays, 7AM ET on NBC), Matt Lauer plays a taped segment in which Kanye West apologizes to George W. Bush for famously stating after Hurricane Katrina that "he doesn't care about black people."
West says he spoke out-of-turn during an emotional moment and regrets his choice of words. "I would tell George Bush, in my moment of frustration, I didn't have the grounds to call him a racist," he said. "But I believe that, in a situation of high emotion like that, we as human beings don't always choose the right words."
In his full interview with Lauer, Bush said he "appreciates" the rapper's apology and forgives him. He does, however, reiterate that West's comments troubled him, especially because "nobody wants to be called a racist if, in your heart, you believe in equality of race."
also, Oliver, from a production standpoint this is hardly the most ambitious rap album ever made. Again, if you knew the track counts on some of those PE songs.... IMO a bunch of protools tracks with soft synths and r&b singers ambition does not make.
3 Feet High and Rising was more ambitious than this within it's context IMO
Reportedly, in Bush's book he says the worse day of presidency was when Kayne said he 'hated Black people'.
Apparently 9/11, meeting the families of thousands of soldiers who had died, Katrina, the response to Katrina.... all paled when compared to what Kayne said.
Comments
I wouldn't suggest that he does. He is simply a fellow traveler, and he is definitely aware of this aesthetic movement and has selectively incorporated its influence into his own work. Word is he is a based head on the low. If the emergence of this aesthetic is to be read as a reaction to anything, I would point to stuff like Drake, BoB, Nick Minaj's album and the general label-driven trend of not letting rappers rap or attempting to hide the fact that they rap, i.e., what I see as a fundamental shifting of the goal posts away from rap's core values. These artists can be read as an aggressive purging of that bloat.
Also: I would never suggest that the importance of this music is limited to validating a teenage voice or that it is in any way less significant than what punk meant in its moment (whatever that was; it may well mean more now than it did at the time). It's very different, but the difference is certainly not that it matters less.
More like "Use Your Illusion I & II"
Fig leaf, dawg.
I'm Che Guevara with bling on!
because Kanye being "convincing" is fundamental to him being a great artist. SMH. snoop can do country, why can't ye do the math? the point isn't whether he should, the point is whether he could or can or would. the point is that his claims of granduer can't be backed up when he's making the same cookie cutter album, albeit with a few longer songs. Arent we all expected to be surprised by his new work (al the cover art, etc) Wouldn't a thought provoking musical or creative turn be in line? Abandoning all ties to previous success to make an artistic decision?
One thing for sure, Miles Davis Kanye is not.
rap needs to be permanantly unvindicated
Your whole argument relies on characterizing his current album as just more of the same; the problem is that almost nobody besides you thinks that.
And the way in which you suggest it fails is by not being a sufficient departure.
I don't think what Kanye does is "cookie cutter" in the least but I also don't think what he does on MBDTF is radically different from his previous albums. It is considerably more elaborate and baroque and just BIGGER (but not necessarily better). And not head-twistingly different. But hey, that's part of the subjective listening experience.
I didn't suggest that you could do a quantitative comparison; I said only that I would not do one. I think these intergenre comparisons, while they may be momentarily provocative, are worth very little.
Listened to a few tracks. Good to hear RZA sounding hungry and Jay on Monster is what he's been needing on his solos
I read your review, and I think you're also missing something in this album. If I have time this evening I will elaborate on what I am hearing but, suffice it to say, I find it to be different from anything I have encountered in rap to date.
The other night I listened all the way through My Homies--indisputably the low point in Scarface's discography--and was unpleasantly surprised by a nu-metal collabo hidden at the end of the second disc. I don't know whether I had blocked the existence of this song out of my memory or had just been too fatigued to ever make it to the end of that bumpy second disc, but this track is basically the noz holy grail.
Hahaha yeah man not for nothing bro but I hear it too...
I look forward to it.
Here's the thing - and upon hindsight, I wish I had thought to say this at the time - but I think this is one of the most ambitious *rap* albums ever made. And as I did say, I like and admire that ambition. I'd rather Kanye reach and fall short then not bother trying (and to be sure, i don't think it's in Kanye to NOT try). However, to me, it doesn't always execute well on those ambitions and that's where my impression ultimately turned.
But I'm glad it's sparking all this debate.
Ok, well I guess i missed that. I suppose i'm still mad about this:
On 'Today' (weekdays, 7AM ET on NBC), Matt Lauer plays a taped segment in which Kanye West apologizes to George W. Bush for famously stating after Hurricane Katrina that "he doesn't care about black people."
West says he spoke out-of-turn during an emotional moment and regrets his choice of words. "I would tell George Bush, in my moment of frustration, I didn't have the grounds to call him a racist," he said. "But I believe that, in a situation of high emotion like that, we as human beings don't always choose the right words."
In his full interview with Lauer, Bush said he "appreciates" the rapper's apology and forgives him. He does, however, reiterate that West's comments troubled him, especially because "nobody wants to be called a racist if, in your heart, you believe in equality of race."
also, Oliver, from a production standpoint this is hardly the most ambitious rap album ever made. Again, if you knew the track counts on some of those PE songs.... IMO a bunch of protools tracks with soft synths and r&b singers ambition does not make.
3 Feet High and Rising was more ambitious than this within it's context IMO
I also definitely wouldn't say it was more ambitious than "3 Ft. High and Rising"
Apparently 9/11, meeting the families of thousands of soldiers who had died, Katrina, the response to Katrina.... all paled when compared to what Kayne said.
Perhaps, but it's certainly a lot better.
Maybe if De La Soul had come with more Black Power Edutainment moves...
Treadwater
Aaaaaaaaaand we just added another 5 pages.