Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b,121For me, Obama is all-too clearly an establishment dude. That's all I need to know to doubt him to the hilt. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21b, 21This makes me think of every time there is an election up here I see on the ballot parties like Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada, People's Political Power Party of Canada and the Marijuana Party and wonder who the hell votes for these guys. I mean they do get something like 0.0000000000001% of the election vote.b,121b, 21Just let Harv talk his shit. He's just one of those dude's who won't vote, but constantly have an opinion. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21I've voted in every presidential election since '92. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21Are you voting this year?
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121yet you simply dont want to handle anything beyond pulling the lever for the dude who you think is the most fashionableb,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21ONLY HARVEY IS SMART ENOUGH TO ASK THE REAL QUESTIONS! EVRYONE ON THIS BOARD THAT VOTES FOR OBAMA IS TOO DUMB TO MAKE A DECISION FOR THEMSELVES AND IS ONLY VOTING FOR OBAMA BECAUSE IT IS THE COOL THING TO DO... b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21The vote is as good as over...Obama wins...which is definitely better than McCain wins. Voting for Obama isn't the problem in my eyes...it's not questioning and acting automatic apologist to any sketchy thing he has ever done/said/openly plans to do. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21Then why don't you offer some criticism relating to actual issues, like his reversals on FISA or offshore drilling, instead of this foolishness?b,121b, 21Because it would necessitate actually educating yourself?b,121b, 21h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21He wants to fight a war in Afghanistan...all anyone should need to know.b,121b,121/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121And yeah, if I was running for President...and my mother was born in Panama just like John McCain...I would expect to have to produce an original copy of my birth certificate at some point during the process. b,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21BECAUSE IT'S NOT ON HIM TO JUSTIFY HIS EXISTENCE TO RACISTS AND WACKJOBS LIKE YOU b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21It's not his existence, it's his right to be president. b,121b,121But go ahead and be a drama queen about it.
He can't.b,121b,121b,121Harvey adoptive parents did not provide him a SSN - therefore he can not vote. I don't beleive when he says that he actually has voted.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Seriously, there are 700 billion different ways to handle the possibility that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii.b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21But why stop there. If he wasn't born in Hawaii, isnt it just as likely that he wasn't born 47 years ago. b,121b,121Perhaps Obama is actually 32 years old. Do you have proof that he isn't? Even if you did, how would you know your proof was real. b,121b,121But why stop there. Perhaps Obama isn't human. He could be a clone. Or he could be a robot. Who are you to say he isn't? What proof do you have that when American nuclear scientists weren't blowing things up in the pacific they weren't creating new life forms?b,121b, 21Perhaps Obama is actually Neal Bush. Have you seen Norbert? They can do all kinds of things with make up these days. Neal Bush hasn't been heard from since the Silverado scandal. Perhaps he has been masquerading as Obama ever since. His dads connections at Harvard would make it easy for him to get into the law school and elected president of the Law Review. Just coincidence that Neil/Obama decides to run for the senate the republican incumbent mysteriously drops out of the race? I don't think so. The hand of the Bush dynasty is all over it. I mean if it was just one coincidence, like the Harvard connection, but there are so many. If Obama isn't Neal Bush why didn't the republicans offer any real candidates this time? Why did the Rs "elect" McCain, who everyone knows they hate? Why did they nominate Palin? It certainly had nothing to do with smarts, talent or electability? b,121b,121Who besides a Bush could be behind this? Harvey did you know that GHW Bush was once the head of the CIA? I will say it again, CIA! b,121b,121THE BUSHES HAVE CLOSE CONNECTIONS TO OTHER RULING FAMILIES INCLUDING SWISS[/b] BANKING FAMILIES WHO ARE PLOTTING WWIII EVEN AS I WRITE THIS!!!!!!!b,121b, 21If you wont believe that it is possible for Obama to be Neal Bush then you just refuse to accept reality.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b, 21b, 21And yeah, if I was running for President...and my mother was born in Panama just like John McCain...I would expect to have to produce an original copy of my birth certificate at some point during the process. b,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21Dude. Do you really think Obama would run for president, campaign for almost 2 years and spend millions of dollars all predicated on a fake birth certificate?[/b]b,121b, 21See how dumb you look? b,121b,121b,121To everyone: b,121b,121You would think I'd know by now not to even engage 'Shied' in these threads, but watching how dude defends his viewpoint can be pretty fascinating.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
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Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21It's so threatening a prospect that he...a href="http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_obamas_birth_certificate_been_disclosed.html" target="_blank"1did exactly what you're claiming he's too afraid to do/a1.b,121b, 21Hint: Fringe nutball bloggers tend to not be a reliable source of good info. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21It's the REISSUE...NOT OG.
You'll notice that Harvey has YET to address the VERY REAL issues that I have brought up in the thread about his SSN and real parents, who by the way were communists that have been on a CIA watch list since '75.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b, 21I've voted in every presidential election since '92. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21HARVEY'S VOTING RECORD SINCE '92b,121b, 211992 - voted for Ross Perotb, 211996 - it was a difficult choice between the Queer Party's candidate of Joan Jett Black and Mary C. Hollis of the Socialist Party USA, but Harvey decided on Ralph Nader.b, 212000 - voted for Ralph Nader (and we all know how that went)b, 212004 - voted for Roger Calero, Socialist Worker Partyb, 212008 - ????b,121b, 21SO MUCH LOSERS.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21It's so threatening a prospect that he...a href="http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_obamas_birth_certificate_been_disclosed.html" target="_blank"1did exactly what you're claiming he's too afraid to do/a1.b,121b, 21Hint: Fringe nutball bloggers tend to not be a reliable source of good info. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21It's the REISSUE...NOT OG. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21/font1
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b, 21Do you really think Obama would run for president, campaign for almost 2 years and spend millions of dollars all predicated on a fake birth certificate?[/b]b,121b, 21b,121h,121
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b, 21b, 21And yeah, if I was running for President...and my mother was born in Panama just like John McCain...I would expect to have to produce an original copy of my birth certificate at some point during the process. b,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21Dude. Do you really think Obama would run for president, campaign for almost 2 years and spend millions of dollars all predicated on a fake birth certificate?[/b]b,121b, 21See how dumb you look? b,121b,121b,121To everyone: b,121b,121You would think I'd know by now not to even engage 'Shied' in these threads, but watching how dude defends his viewpoint can be pretty fascinating. b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21b, 21Robert is so much smarter, so much less racist, so much more righteous, so much less sheep-like, so much more informed, so much BETTER than everyone on this board. Thank God that everyone has his example to look up to and rarely match.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121And yeah, there are plenty of rap dudes, some even black, who aren't goose-stepping for Obama. b,121b,121Shocking, isn't it? b,121b,121h,121
Quote:/font1h,121b,121The funny thing is, this isn't even about Obama anymore. It's about retardation. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21Harvey is just jealous that Obama is a far more effective community organizer than he is, with way more liberal bonafides. FACT.
Just a point of order on the whole McCain Panama thing...b,121b,121A judge ruled that McCain is a natural born US citizen because both his parents where US citizens even though he was born in the Panama Canal zone.b,121b,121There is also precedent with Goldwater's run for President, he was born in Arizona when it was still a territory and not a state.b,121b,121Further, a non-binding resolution (read opinion) in the Senate was passed before the Primaries that said it was so (both Hillery and Obama voted Yes).b,121b,121So, legally there is no issue with John McCain's status as a US Citizen and his qualification to run for president.
Much of what Harvey says is a bananas. But he does make an important point. If you are against Bush because you hate empire, torture, war and unbidden free trade--which if the placards, op-eds, blogs and bumper stickers are to be believed is basically right--then Obama ought to worry you. He will likely leave at least some troops over the long term in Iraq, not to mention air bases, as part of a long term SOFA deal. He is promising more war in Afghanistan, not to mention he boasts of treading on the sovereignty of Pakistan (all of which gets the Vitamin seal of approval, but still ought to worry most of you). He has voted for and endorsed the prospect of placing Iran's revolutionary guard on a list of foreign terrorist organizations. That is almost declaring war through designation, it's like if Iran's supreme leader put a fatwa on the Marines, which I think he has. I think he will end the practice of American contractors torturing detainees. We will all pat ourselves on the back and feel wonderful. But Obama will likely continue the policy of renditioning high level terrorists to other countries where they will be tortured, like Clinton did. He will keep our existing trade agreements through NAFTA and probably seek new ones, even in Colombia. I doubt he will socialize the means of production and he may not have enough money for national healthcare. Also, he voted for the surveillance bill that the ACLU lobbied so hard against. b,121b,121He will be more liberal than Bush of course on a number of issues. He will appoint justices who believe in a living constitution and the validity of roe v wade. He will at least attempt a diplomatic entente with Iran, though he says explicitly that he leaves "all options on the table." He will close Gitmo and he will also likely pursue a climate change treaty, to the detriment of the free market but hey. He will funnel more money into things like title 1 aid for education and other federal programs aimed at addressing poverty. And he will improve our public diplomacy at least with the European public, whose opinions I really could care less about, but which are of paramount importance to most American liberals. b,121b,121b, 21But empire, war, capitalism, big brother surveillance and indirect torture. That's quite a list. I await the life size paper mache puppets, the "Arrest Obama" bumper stickers, the mock war crime tribunals and the speak outs.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121*lulz* that harvey presumes that something is fact from the filing of a lawsuit. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21Where did I presume anything as fact? b,121b,121h,121font class="post"1b,121b, 21[harvey]just because I believe in it and bring it up in political discussion why would u think I think it's true?[/harvey]
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121How is that even such a threatening prospect to Obama...if he beyond a shadow of a doubt has nothing to hide? b,121b,121h,121
Quote:/font1h,121b,121vitamin how do you rate mccain and your republican party on these same issuesb,121b,121worst than obama correct? b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21It depends on what you mean by worse. But sure, if you are anti-empire then you would likely dislike McCain more. I am in favor of empire, so I like McCain even more. On torture, I am against it as well. But I know enough history here to know that the outsourcing of torture has been a bipartisan American tradition since long before Bush. So some of the outrage seems over the top because so few people who protest Bush's decision to allow the military to torture (which I oppose) are willing to say whether they also oppose the practice that preceded this. As for free trade, I am Naomi Klein's negation. And on Iraq and Iran, I favor more engagement and not withdrawal. On all of these issues however I see little difference between the candidates. b,121b,121As for a climate change treaty, I hope Obama does not submit our economy to some world bureaucracy overseeing the exchange of "carbon credits." That said, I would like to see tax incentives at home to encourage less reliance on carbon. I have no doubt that global warming is occurring and I favor finding alternative energies. I am not terribly crazy about drill baby drill, but McCain has plenty of other ideas for investing in alternatives to oil. I am critical of teacher's unions, but as Obama pointed out in the last debate, so is he.b,121b, 21We'll see. Six days of the week, I think Obama destroys the American left and rest easy that he will manage the imperium more effectively than Bush. On that seventh day I fear he has been a stealth radical for the last four years and that the real Obama is the "New Party" newsletter, Franz Fanon bull sessions in college, Rev. Wright's crazy church and a guy who wants to "spread the wealth around." Then I read his speech to Aipac, count to ten, and tell myself the next likely president is a member of the American elite. He won't send me to a re-education camp in the rice fields where I unlearn my false consciousness. It's fine. Oh look, there's Bob Rubin giving his advice on the financial crisis, oh wait, that's Tony Lake, the guy who requested CIA options on how to assassinate Saddam Hussein. Everything is fine.
V,b,121b, 21Obama is probably going to end up very similar to Clinton. Obama is a very cautious man who will rely on a lot of well known advisers, and probably do a better job with the economic mess than a Republican would. Foreign policy wise I don't know. Clinton had a muddled image of what he wanted to do many times.
P.S. - 2 new pollsb,121b,121Palin's negatives are increasingb,121b,121Poll of rural areas has McCain and Obama tied. McCain can't win the Midwest without doing big with the rural vote becuase urban areas tend to be more Democratic.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121P.S. - 2 new pollsb,121b,121Palin's negatives are increasingb,121b,121Poll of rural areas has McCain and Obama tied. McCain can't win the Midwest without doing big with the rural vote becuase urban areas tend to be more Democratic. b,121b,121h,121
font class="post"1b,121b, 21The polls that came out today (see 538) are real bad for McCain. Obama is crushing him in Indiana some polls suggest. MT is in play. States like MN, MI and WI that were all in play before the last debate are polling double digits for Obama. b,121b,121We need to keep working, and get that vote out, but things are looking grim for McCain. b, 21b, 21Also the Republican Senate campaign is running ads telling people not to vote D for Senate because the Ds are sure to control the White House and HoR. (NC related.)
I like how when Republicans talk to Republicans about Obama, he a Communist Pacifist intent on loosing as many wars as possible, but when they talk to Democrats he's a hawkish warmonger, ready to sell out core liberal constituencies at a moments notice.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Lookie here, I just think people are taking this presidential election charade way too seriously. I don???t think either candidate will do anything beyond exactly what the F*ck they are told to do by their handlers. You really think once Ronald Reagan served his 8 years, that they???d ever install a real president again? Might as well put Mickey Mouse into the office???as it???s all for show. And I say that because our history had been scripted long ago and damned if we as ???the people??? have been able to change it significantly to date. Because that???s what you are doing by voting for an establishment guy like Obama???changing nothing. Voting for president nowadays is just there to appease you and make you feel like you are contributing. In local elections, you still wield a bit of real power???but in the big arena, yeah right. b,121b, 21My contention is exactly that our current 2-party system is like fiat money, in that it only retains value by how much confidence you put in it. And as long as the system is able to contain the people???s enthusiasm within a repeating pendulum swing that is about as narrow as could be to the point of hardly any difference at all, WE REMAIN FUCKED. In other countries, they fight in the streets for justice, spilling blood and making real sacrifices to make things right. Here, merely asking someone to vote outside of the 2-party oligarchy is too much to ask to the point of being perceived as insanity. b,121b, 21Nothing I say here is meant to be about me being better than anyone. It???s just that this being-duped-into-thinking that Obama, who is the better of 2 evils at best, is actually going to have our government begin turning the tide towards actually working in our interest is as laughable as it is tragic. This very well could have been one of those moments where people take their lives into their own hands, but instead we are just going to trust the next product of a system that has been nothing but a terror for the longest. b,121b, 21So yeah, if my frustration with this mass half-assedness comes out through hoping that a last-minute wrench can somehow be thrown into the master plan of Obama being delivered to the White House on a platter made of Ameros, then so be it. I wish misfortune on the whole lot of them in their plots to further consolidate power away from the individual, family, an/or local community. And never in a trillion years could I ever be as underhanded as they have proven to be at every turn. b,121b, 21So ultimately, I say F*ck em long before I would ever say support them in any way, shape, or form. Some of y???all remember when it was divestment from South Africa time. Well, some of us have been waiting far too long for y???all to realize that it???s already long-been divestment from the US establishment time. Because the longer y???all wait, the longer it hurts all of us across the entire world. This is not the only place, but this is definitely a place where your complicity is showing. By voting for either Obama or McCain , you are cosigning senseless war, economic theft, environmental catastrophe, the destruction of personal privacy, etc. You already know that even if some good comes out of either candidate that it will still pale in comparison to their constant bads. I really don???t know how y???all could stand behind such a low standard. b,121b, 21But yeah, Obama win...forgone conclusion...HOORAY!
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