Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121The way he is talking now about how journalist should just report what McCain says and take it is truth and never investigate further b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121I believe what you just described is called "Fox News due diligence."b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121You sound unpatriotic. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121
Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121The way he is talking now about how journalist should just report what McCain says and take it is truth and never investigate further b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121I believe what you just described is called "Fox News due diligence."b,121b,121b/wb,121b,121You sound unpatriotic. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121John McCain lied when he said that Joe was going to buy the business and be making over 250,000 a year. b,121b,121Because some journalist were not afraid to check McCain's facts we now know the truth. b,121b,121BUT! Every Western Intelligences Agency in the world believed that Joe really was a plumber, so McCain didn't actually lie.
What's really remarkable is that McCain - you presume - must have been coached to use "Joe the Plumber" as this populist figure that would give him an edge over Obama. b,121b,121Well..that being the case, what happened to the posse of GOP lawyers and such that should be, you know, VETTING dude before McCain decides to stake his whole debate on him? It's like Palin all over again - an impulsive gamble with no homework done. b,121b,121I'm sure had McCain known:b,1211) His name isn't Joe,b,1212) He's not a licensed plumber.b,1213) The business he was going to buy does make over 250K in profit - that's gross. Its net profit is something like...5 digits? Would not have gotten additionally taxed under Obama's plan.b,1214) Owes back taxes. b,121b,121With all that known - you back away from Joe the Plumber and find some other angle. But as usual, McCain showed a remarkable lack of foresight and now he (and Joe) are paying the price.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121John McCain lied when he said that Joe was going to buy the business and be making over 250,000 a year. b,121b,121Because some journalist were not afraid to check McCain's facts we now know the truth. b,121b,121BUT! Every Western Intelligences Agency in the world believed that Joe really was a plumber, so McCain didn't actually lie. b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121Do you know the difference between lying--saying something you know to be false; and being mistaken? And his middle name is Joe, and he goes by Joe, and I think he practices plumbing without a license. Oh and he owes five years worth of back taxes. Unless you can show how Joe the Plumber asked McCain to be used in the debate, then your point falls. b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b,121The way he is talking now about how journalist should just report what McCain says and take it is truth and never investigate further reminds of his views on Bush and Iraqi intelligence. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121When did I ever say that? I argued against telling hundreds of million people about the personal life--back taxes owed--of a plumber living in Ohio. I am all for fact-checking, investigations, etc.. I do it for a living. That's putting words in my mouth. b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121b,121b,121No body has delved into Joe's private life. I find it hard to believe that you ever worked for a daily. b,121b,121Whether or not Joe has a plumbing license or pays his taxes is part of the public record. It is not part of his private life. b,121b,121It has a lot to do with Chalabi. Why? Because like Joe and Palin, Chalabi was a prop used to push through an agenda. And like Palin and Joe he was not what those who propped him up said he was. b,121b,121You like to say that Joe Wilson is con artist, because you caught him in a minor lie, which gives you a reason to disregard everything true he said.b,121b,121Yet you set scum like Chalabi, Palin and Joe up as above reproach and get bent out of shape when someone wants to know who they truly are. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121So you think your tax records should be a topic for a newspaper story, or a piece on NPR, or a CNN broadcast internationally? I don't. I don't think blogs, papers or broadcasters should be fined or censored. But I can use my free speech rights to say that it's slimy and I wish it would stop. I have thought about it and I think those who say that he partially brought this on have a point. He was happy to give an interview to CBS, though he sounded bewildered and hardly coached or prepared for media interviews. I feel for the guy. b,121b,121Your point about Chalabi, Palin and Joe is hard to follow. The Democratic narrative has Chalabi as the puppet master and not the prop. He is said to have hyped intelligence to the US media, specifically putting reporters in contact with defectors who told discredited stories about Iraq's links to WMD. That's basically true. I wrote about Chalabi's relationship with the CIA before the war in a piece widely sited in later anti-Chalabi material for TNR in September 2002. Sarah Palin is a vice presidential candidate, the criticism against her is that she is both stupid and demagogic. But both Chalabi and Palin are actors, not props. Joe really is a prop. Obama came down his street and he decided to ask the candidate a question about his tax plan. McCain saw a kindred spirit and decided on the fly to zing Obama in the debate based on a story he read Wednesday morning in the New York Post, which quoted Obama--accurately appears--as saying he wishes to spread the wealth around. b,121b,121As for Joe Wilson, I don't know what truth is left from his story, or which story you are referring to, he has said so many things. At one point, Joe Wilson feigned martyrdom as an actual journalist went to jail to keep her sources confidential--in a case where the State Department--headed by the guy who is about to endorse Obama--leaked Plame's name. The British MI6 believed the Niger story and that's what the president mentioned in his 16 words of the 2003 State of the Union. Ironic that his flabby memoir is the called the Politics of Truth. A political truth indeed.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121Do you know the difference between lying--saying something you know to be false; and being mistaken? And his middle name is Joe, and he goes by Joe, and I think he practices plumbing without a license. Oh and he owes five years worth of back taxes. Unless you can show how Joe the Plumber asked McCain to be used in the debate, then your point falls. b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121The point is not who asked to be used as a prop. The point is a prop was used. b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121The way he is talking now about how journalist should just report what McCain says and take it is truth and never investigate further reminds of his views on Bush and Iraqi intelligence. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121When did I ever say that? I argued against telling hundreds of million people about the personal life--back taxes owed--of a plumber living in Ohio. I am all for fact-checking, investigations, etc.. I do it for a living. That's putting words in my mouth. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121Your not making any sense. If we don't find out the truth about Joe then we are taking McCain at his word. Either you are for taking McCain at his word. Or doing a simple background check on Joe. b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121So you think your tax records should be a topic for a newspaper story, or a piece on NPR, or a CNN broadcast internationally? b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121There would be no story. I pay my taxes. Joe's tax records are not public information, his illegal activities (not paying taxes) are. Do you think the federal government should keep illegal activity secret?b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121Your point about Chalabi, Palin and Joe is hard to follow. The Democratic narrative has Chalabi as the puppet master and not the prop. He is said to have hyped intelligence to the US media, specifically putting reporters in contact with defectors who told discredited stories about Iraq's links to WMD. That's basically true. I wrote about Chalabi's relationship with the CIA before the war in a piece widely sited in later anti-Chalabi material for TNR in September 2002. Sarah Palin is a vice presidential candidate, the criticism against her is that she is both stupid and demagogic.b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121For purposes of this argument the criticism against Palin is Palin. McCain didn't bother to do a basic background check on her. When reporters started to do a basic background check on her you guys cried foul. We know more about William Ayers actions 40 years ago than we know about Palin's connection with the AIP today. b,121b,121/font1Quote:/font1h,121b,121But both Chalabi and Palin are actors, not props. Joe really is a prop. Obama came down his street and he decided to ask the candidate a question about his tax plan. McCain saw a kindred spirit and decided on the fly to zing Obama in the debate based on a story he read Wednesday morning in the New York Post, which quoted Obama--accurately appears--as saying he wishes to spread the wealth around. b,121b,121As for Joe Wilson, I don't know what truth is left from his story, or which story you are referring to, he has said so many things. At one point, Joe Wilson feigned martyrdom as an actual journalist went to jail to keep her sources confidential--in a case where the State Department--headed by the guy who is about to endorse Obama--leaked Plame's name. The British MI6 believed the Niger story and that's what the president mentioned in his 16 words of the 2003 State of the Union. Ironic that his flabby memoir is the called the Politics of Truth. A political truth indeed. b,121b,121h,121b,121b,121As for the difference between props and actors. It doesn't matter what you call Joe. If you are going to make him the central case for your economic plan, than his PUBLIC RECORD, is fair game. b,121b,121Joe Wilson's story is very simple. Iraq did not try to buy uranium from West Africa. Not only is it simple. It is true. b,121b,121You and the Bush administration continue to believe an untrue story. Because M16 thought it was true at the time. You could have just as easily chosen to believe the true story. Instead you (and by you I mean the VPs office) decided to destroy Wilson, and the US intelligence operations in Iran, by revealing not just his personal life, but his wives classified occupation. Joe Wilson was a better investigator than M16. b,121b,121The difference between good intelligence and bad intelligence is good intelligence is accurate. b,121b,121The difference between someone's personal life, and the public record, is that your personal life is not part of the public record.
I am all for doing background checks on Obama's tax plan. That's what Joe asked about. His tax record is not germane to the election, nor is it taking McCain at his word. McCain is making an argument about Obama and this sort of thing is checked, rechecked and checked again all the time, and with my full participation and endorsement. McCain is not making a claim about Joe, he's addressing a single voter--in a quite bizarre way I might add. Finding out about Joe is not checking McCain's statements, it's just making a private matter public. Anyway, you seem not to grasp these important distinctions. And again, I don't know about "you guys" either. I am all for investigating Sarah Palin, she's a public figure, she's running for vice president. I am against investigating and reporting on details of the life of a private citizen who did not seek the limelight. And finally as for Joe Wilson, no his claim was a bit more than you say. Wilson said the administration knew that the 16 words were wrong because he alerted them to this fact. In order to shut him up, the administration deliberately destroyed his wife's career. None of that last stuff is true. But Wilson has not apologized for sparking an investigation that may set a prosecutorial precedent requiring journalists to hand over their notebooks and identities of sources to grand juries. Ironic that you think you are taking the side of the press only now.
I would hope that asking a candidate a question, regardless of how sincere, would not lead to assassination of a citizen's character.b,121b,121Who "Joe the Plumber" is and what he's done doesn't change the premise of his question.b,121b,121A question that I think Barack answered honestly and accurately. b,121b,121Diminishing the character of "Joe The Plumber" not only smacks of sleaze, it takes focus away from an issue that is important and attracts voters to Obama.
Quote:/font1h,121b,121I am all for doing background checks on Obama's tax plan. That's what Joe asked about. His tax record is not germane to the election, nor is it taking McCain at his word. McCain is making an argument about Obama and this sort of thing is checked, rechecked and checked again all the time, and with my full participation and endorsement. McCain is not making a claim about Joe, he's addressing a single voter--in a quite bizarre way I might add. Finding out about Joe is not checking McCain's statements, it's just making a private matter public. Anyway, you seem not to grasp these important distinctions. And again, I don't know about "you guys" either. I am all for investigating Sarah Palin, she's a public figure, she's running for vice president. I am against investigating and reporting on details of the life of a private citizen who did not seek the limelight. And finally as for Joe Wilson, no his claim was a bit more than you say. Wilson said the administration knew that the 16 words were wrong because he alerted them to this fact. In order to shut him up, the administration deliberately destroyed his wife's career. None of that last stuff is true. But Wilson has not apologized for sparking an investigation that may set a prosecutorial precedent requiring journalists to hand over their notebooks and identities of sources to grand juries. Ironic that you think you are taking the side of the press only now. b,121b,121h,121
b,121b,121Let me ask a few questions.b,1211) What information about "Joe's" private life have been revealed? Please do not include items that are part of the public record.b,1212) If a candidate names a person 26 times in one nationally televised event has that candidate invaded that persons private life?b,1213) If a candidate uses a specific person to illustrate their opponents economic plan has that candidate invaded that persons private life?b,121 b,121As for Wilson.b,1211) Did he report to that Iraq had not try to buy Uranium?b,1212) Did the administration have access to that report?b,1213) Did the administration choose to ignore that good intelligence and go with bad intelligence?b,121b,121As for the press.b,1211) If a reporter is a witness to bank robbery or murder should the courts be able to see that reporters notes books?
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