Let me just say that pointing an indiscriminant finger at recent hip-hop as a way to make it seem like "Brown Sugar" ain't that bad after all has got to be the definition of...
YOU BROUGHT IT UP. I don't think anyone is using it as a way to justify that 'Brown Sugar,' is not that bad. But YOU invited the challenge to think of something comparable in hip hop, and as far as subject matter goes, hip hop can bring the motherfuckin' ruckus.
(BTW, I hate that fucking song, and wrote a paper about it in college, and i think it is far more offensive that Pepsi used it to schill their product than using Ludicris ever could have been.)
When I read "black man's equivalent", it never occured to me to think of instances of songs that cite black men raping anybody.
I was thinking along the lines of songs that offer retribution against slavery/rape WITHOUT stooping to such deplorable levels.
I love how rape is the "deplorable level" you won't sink to supporting yet supporting rappers glorifying murder and crack sales are ok.
As if any of those things has anything redeeming about them.
and before you argue back, let me ask you this, Would you rather your daughter was raped, hooked on crack, or murdered?
there really ain't a lesser of the evils aspect to this.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Actually, I brought it up.
'eh...like i said, i'm at work. I just saw Harvey's post about 'there's nothing in recent hip hop,' and that's what i thought started it.
sorry.
still hate 'brown sugar,' to bring this back on topic.
I don't know what Pharoah Monch song was being referenced...but I would imagine that it's at least a few years old.
That Geto Boys album is 15 years old.
Prince Paul I would imagine was engaging in satire.
Which leaves us with the Ying Yang Twins...
Ovbiously beating the pussy up on as-far-as-we-know is a consenting woman who for-all-we-know wants her pussy to be beat up is much, much worse than a "slavemaster" whipping and raping what he considers to be his property.
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Yep, it's now official. Contemporary rap is as bad as worldwide slavery.
much worse than a "slavemaster" whipping and raping what he considers to be his property.
These aren't in the lyrics to Brown Sugar, nor was I likening the song to contemporary hip hop.
I think you're equivocating on what was expressed in this thread. For example, I wrote: 1) I'm not defending this particular song and 2) it's no worse than a lot of contemporary hip hop (that I'm not ashamed to admit that I like).
The subtext of #2 is that I would be a hypocrite if I declared Brown Sugar offensive.
The song is called Rape and came out in 2004 1999.
and i'm pretty sure it's a song about raping rap. you know, LYRICALLY[/b].
not that i'm defending that concept, because it's one of the worst looks in the career of a man who has also claimed the ability to suck his own dick and an affinity for buttfucking emcees.
They're a white male British band, though, so the deviant sexual aspect of it doesn't really offend me (certainly less than the actual transatlantic slave trade does).
I didnt realize the lyrics of Brown Sugar were that crazy. I always thought it was about strictly liking Sistas(No slave shit involved). Whatever. I just wondered why after all these years there want some equivalent in Black Music(all forms) about Caucasoid women. I wondered how caucasoids & Black folk would react. David Bowie's China Girl slid by w/out any hoopla. Id like to hear about the reaction to Brown Sugar back when it came out. There's a good Bob Marley spoof the Cedric the Entertainer did on his show.Some ole white woman song (dread wig and all). Sistas in the crowd wasnt havin it. St8 hilarious.
Id like to hear about the reaction to Brown Sugar back when it came out. I remember when Sticky Fingers came out. That's the record that it was on, right? I was about 13 or 14 and all the talk was about the Andy Warhol cover with the zipper, what was underneath? We didn't know what the lyrics were. It's not like Mick announceates or anything. But I remember "hear old slaver whip the women just around midnight" and thinking did he really say that? I knew it was nasty. Brown Sugar was #1 for 2 weeks so I don't think there was any protest.
I thought the words to Can't You Hear Me knocking were gibby newby knobby. I did find out about Fred McDowell real fast and had this great live record of his that was kind of a boot that is pretty rare now.
Id like to hear about the reaction to Brown Sugar back when it came out.
Brown Sugar was #1 for 2 weeks so I don't think there was any protest.
I am kinda surprised that this song came out when it did. 1971 was an extremely Afrocentric, P.C. time - hell, "Funky Nassau" was a crossover pop hit! - so it is startling that a "Brown Sugar" could be #1 in the middle of all that.
Of course Neil Young sang about killing his girl down by the river, and Johnny Cash[/b] sang "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die". Yet hip hop gets the bad rap for inappropriate lyrics.
I am kinda surprised that this song came out when it did. 1971 was an extremely Afrocentric, P.C. time
I'll give you the afrocentric part, but PC? nowhere near it; I don't even think the term existed yet. Top rated show of '71 was All In the Family. In '71 we still had crazies like George Wallace spitting out their rhetoric and getting TV time to do so. Not to mention the first season of Sanford and Son, maybe I'm mistakn but I think John and Yoko had the track "Woman is the Nigger Of the World" got released that year as well.
I am kinda surprised that this song came out when it did. 1971 was an extremely Afrocentric, P.C. time
I'll give you the afrocentric part, but PC? nowehere near it. Top rated show of '71 was All In the Family.
Room 222 was huge back then, too, and that was everything that Family wasn't (an ethnically-diverse high-school in L.A. that dealt with topical issues in a far more sensitive way than Archie Bunker would have). This show seldom pops up in reruns, but it had a good run all the same (1969-74). The period wasn't THAT conservative as you're making it sound (although that element was there too).
Besides, Norman Lear (who created AITF) didn't want you to sympathize with Bunker, so much as expose his mistakes. (Although his bleeding-heart-liberal son-in-law was definitely set up to look like a goon from time to time.)
In '71 we still had crazies like George Wallace spitting out their rhetoric and getting TV time to do so.
...but there was still strong, vocal opposition. Charlie Daniels had a hit with "Uneasy Rider," which made fun of Wallace in passing (the song itself was about a hippie whose car breaks down outside of "this redneck-looking joint"). This song came out two years later, but still in roughly the same era.
PC social lockdown didn't really come into play until decades later.
Seemed like the '90-92 era was nothing BUT political correctness. Felt that way at the time, and it looks that way in retrospect.
Although I didn't live during the time I've always been told that the 70's was a decade of decadence.
It was, but it GOT that way towards mid-decade, it didn't START that way.
I did live during the time, although I was just a child. No one used the term "P.C.," but the sentiment was there - in the early part of the decade there was a definite push towards multiculturalism (specially on children's TV!) and atoning for previous sins. The decadence came in gradually (most notably after the Nixon/Vietnam era ended).
Gold coast slave ship bound for cotton fields, Sold in a market down in new orleans. Scarred old slaver know hes doin alright. Hear him whip the women just around midnight. Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good (a-ha) brown sugar, just like a young girl should A-huh.
Drums beating, cold english blood runs hot, Lady of the house wondrin where its gonna stop. House boy knows that hes doin alright. You should a heard him just around midnight. Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good (a-ha) brown sugar, just like a black girl should A-huh.
I bet your mama was a tent show queen, and all her boy Friends were sweet sixteen. Im no schoolboy but I know what I like, You should have heard me just around midnight.
Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good (a-ha) brown sugar, just like a young girl should.
I said yeah, I said yeah, I said yeah, I said Oh just like a, just like a black girl should.
I said yeah, I said yeah, I said yeah, I said Oh just like, just like a black girl should.
Crazy! I never could understand half the lyrics in Brown Sugar... No wonder Mick mumbled so damn much. Like somebody else said, I just thought this was about wanting a little loving from a sister. I figure that like so many of the Stones tunes, it was written from an alternate perspective, or in character, as it were. Like "Sympathy For The Devil" or "Street Fightin' Man".
Besides, Norman Lear (who created AITF) didn't want you to sympathize with Bunker, so much as expose his mistakes. (Although his bleeding-heart-liberal son-in-law was definitely set up to look like a goon from time to time.)
Right, JP. Lear intentionally presented real-life uncomfortable societal situations. Bunker v. Meathead was all about the foilbles of the old and new guards. Although it has universal themes, you really can't see it without keeping the era in mind. Don't get it confroosed, cats.
Brown Sugar is offensive to me, even if it's "presented metaphorically" or as a commentary on colonial dominance.
The song is called Rape and came out in 2004 1999.
and i'm pretty sure it's a song about raping rap. you know, LYRICALLY[/b].
not that i'm defending that concept, because it's one of the worst looks in the career of a man who has also claimed the ability to suck his own dick and an affinity for buttfucking emcees.
You're right; I've been "sonned"...After reading the lyrics, it's more apparent that it's just an analogy in poor taste.
What are you, some kind of music critic or something?
P.S. Allmusic lists 'Literate' as one of the 'Moods' his music is supposed to evoke.
I think the song would be pure NAGL if it in some way condoned slavery, but I just see it as a story about what must have been going on around that time. I mean, that era, not "about midnight". Nothing more.
Of course Neil Young sang about killing his girl down by the river, and Johnny Cash[/b] sang "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die". Yet hip hop gets the bad rap for inappropriate lyrics.
Thank you
HarveyCanal"a distraction from my main thesis." 13,234 Posts
Yet Marsha Hunt still got with Mick.
Are you really dusting off the ole some-of-my-best-friends-are-black defense?
I think the song would be pure NAGL if it in some way condoned slavery, but I just see it as a story about what must have been going on around that time. I mean, that era, not "about midnight". Nothing more.
Telling a story about an unfortunate history is one thing. But Mick duly fucked himself with all of that "just like a black girl should" bullshite.
If "Brown Sugar" didn't inspire outrage, it's likely b/c most people never bothered to listen to the lyrics very closely. The song was a hit, not because people are really down with the slave trade or raping women, but because it SOUNDED GOOD to them and the fact that Jagger mumbles his way through the song made it all the easier to ignore (consciously or unconsciously). I think the same could be said of MOST popular music that, on a lyrical level, could be considered offensive. You think NWA would have been a big hit as spoken word poets?
That's the nature of music - we like what we hear on a visceral level even if, intellectually-speaking, we might discover that something is completely offensive.
As for why there wasn't an outcry in 1971, I think there's some confusion over terms and history. Yes, Black Power was in full swing by the early 1970s but it's not like people like Huey and Stokely were wielding power on the music industry to shut down songs they thought were offensive. Black Power wasn't embraced by America - it was loathed and feared - and it's not like social policy was being crafted to adjust to it...it was being forged to destroy it.
And the early '70s were anything but "PC". Political correctness didn't come into vogue until the late 1980s and even then, it wasn't the creation of the left but a brilliant rhetorical move by the right to suggest that American schools and media were being ruined by tolerance as a way to distract from the ways in which social structure explained things like social unrest, economic problems, cultural controversies and educational woes.
If "Brown Sugar" didn't inspire outrage, it's likely b/c most people never bothered to listen to the lyrics very closely. The song was a hit, not because people are really down with the slave trade or raping women, but because it SOUNDED GOOD to them and the fact that Jagger mumbles his way through the song made it all the easier to ignore (consciously or unconsciously). I think the same could be said of MOST popular music that, on a lyrical level, could be considered offensive. You think NWA would have been a big hit as spoken word poets?
That's the nature of music - we like what we hear on a visceral level even if, intellectually-speaking, we might discover that something is completely offensive.
I seem to recall that seemingly no one caught on to the subject matter of "Billie Jean" (Michael Jackson's paternity tale) till it had already been out a few months, that's how much everybody reacted to the music.
And the early '70s were anything but "PC". Political correctness didn't come into vogue until the late 1980s
No, the term[/b] "politically correct" didn't come into vogue until the late 1980's.
The early seventies had its' own version of it too. Without it, Meathead Stivic (Archie Bunker's son-in-law) wouldn't have had reason to exist.
No, the term[/b] "politically correct" didn't come into vogue until the late 1980's.
The early seventies had its' own version of it too. Without it, Meathead Stivic (Archie Bunker's son-in-law) wouldn't have had reason to exist.
I understand what you're saying here but the concept of political correctness - term or no term - is historically rooted in a backlash that may have had their roots in post-60s America but didn't really come into full fruition until the '80s. Perhaps we're agreeing on that same point.
In any case, Afrocentricity had very little to do with either since that was never embraced into the mainstream of American culture.
Comments
YOU BROUGHT IT UP. I don't think anyone is using it as a way to justify that 'Brown Sugar,' is not that bad. But YOU invited the challenge to think of something comparable in hip hop, and as far as subject matter goes, hip hop can bring the motherfuckin' ruckus.
(BTW, I hate that fucking song, and wrote a paper about it in college, and i think it is far more offensive that Pepsi used it to schill their product than using Ludicris ever could have been.)
'eh...like i said, i'm at work. I just saw Harvey's post about 'there's nothing in recent hip hop,' and that's what i thought started it.
sorry.
still hate 'brown sugar,' to bring this back on topic.
I was thinking along the lines of songs that offer retribution against slavery/rape WITHOUT stooping to such deplorable levels.
I love how rape is the "deplorable level" you won't sink to supporting yet supporting rappers glorifying murder and crack sales are ok.
As if any of those things has anything redeeming about them.
and before you argue back, let me ask you this, Would you rather your daughter was raped, hooked on crack, or murdered?
there really ain't a lesser of the evils aspect to this.
I don't know what Pharoah Monch song was being referenced...but I would imagine that it's at least a few years old.
That Geto Boys album is 15 years old.
Prince Paul I would imagine was engaging in satire.
Which leaves us with the Ying Yang Twins...
Ovbiously beating the pussy up on as-far-as-we-know is a consenting woman who for-all-we-know wants her pussy to be beat up is much, much worse than a "slavemaster" whipping and raping what he considers to be his property.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, Soulstrut.
And thank you, Robert, for fingering Jagger & co. as worldwide undercover slave traders themselves. I always knew that lot were up to something fishy.
i dont even think i could name a rolling stones song if i had to think of one
The song is called Rape and came out in 2004.
These aren't in the lyrics to Brown Sugar, nor was I likening the song to contemporary hip hop.
I think you're equivocating on what was expressed in this thread. For example, I wrote: 1) I'm not defending this particular song and 2) it's no worse than a lot of contemporary hip hop (that I'm not ashamed to admit that I like).
The subtext of #2 is that I would be a hypocrite if I declared Brown Sugar offensive.
Brown Sugar is a classic...
You're a lonely masturbator...
and i'm pretty sure it's a song about raping rap. you know, LYRICALLY[/b].
not that i'm defending that concept, because it's one of the worst looks in the career of a man who has also claimed the ability to suck his own dick and an affinity for buttfucking emcees.
is that only funny if you're irish ?
that's funny
I wondered how caucasoids & Black folk would react. David Bowie's China Girl slid by w/out any hoopla. Id like to hear about the reaction to Brown Sugar back when it came out.
There's a good Bob Marley spoof the Cedric the Entertainer did on his show.Some ole white woman song (dread wig and all). Sistas in the crowd wasnt havin it. St8 hilarious.
I remember when Sticky Fingers came out. That's the record that it was on, right? I was about 13 or 14 and all the talk was about the Andy Warhol cover with the zipper, what was underneath? We didn't know what the lyrics were. It's not like Mick announceates or anything. But I remember "hear old slaver whip the women just around midnight" and thinking did he really say that? I knew it was nasty. Brown Sugar was #1 for 2 weeks so I don't think there was any protest.
I thought the words to Can't You Hear Me knocking were gibby newby knobby. I did find out about Fred McDowell real fast and had this great live record of his that was kind of a boot that is pretty rare now.
I am kinda surprised that this song came out when it did. 1971 was an extremely Afrocentric, P.C. time - hell, "Funky Nassau" was a crossover pop hit! - so it is startling that a "Brown Sugar" could be #1 in the middle of all that.
I'll give you the afrocentric part, but PC? nowhere near it; I don't even think the term existed yet. Top rated show of '71 was All In the Family.
In '71 we still had crazies like George Wallace spitting out their rhetoric and getting TV time to do so. Not to mention the first season of Sanford and Son, maybe I'm mistakn but I think John and Yoko had the track "Woman is the Nigger Of the World" got released that year as well.
Room 222 was huge back then, too, and that was everything that Family wasn't (an ethnically-diverse high-school in L.A. that dealt with topical issues in a far more sensitive way than Archie Bunker would have). This show seldom pops up in reruns, but it had a good run all the same (1969-74). The period wasn't THAT conservative as you're making it sound (although that element was there too).
Besides, Norman Lear (who created AITF) didn't want you to sympathize with Bunker, so much as expose his mistakes. (Although his bleeding-heart-liberal son-in-law was definitely set up to look like a goon from time to time.)
...but there was still strong, vocal opposition. Charlie Daniels had a hit with "Uneasy Rider," which made fun of Wallace in passing (the song itself was about a hippie whose car breaks down outside of "this redneck-looking joint"). This song came out two years later, but still in roughly the same era.
Seemed like the '90-92 era was nothing BUT political correctness. Felt that way at the time, and it looks that way in retrospect.
It was, but it GOT that way towards mid-decade, it didn't START that way.
I did live during the time, although I was just a child. No one used the term "P.C.," but the sentiment was there - in the early part of the decade there was a definite push towards multiculturalism (specially on children's TV!) and atoning for previous sins. The decadence came in gradually (most notably after the Nixon/Vietnam era ended).
Crazy!
I never could understand half the lyrics in Brown Sugar...
No wonder Mick mumbled so damn much.
Like somebody else said, I just thought this was about wanting a little loving from
a sister.
I figure that like so many of the Stones tunes, it was written from
an alternate perspective, or in character, as it were.
Like "Sympathy For The Devil" or "Street Fightin' Man".
Right, JP. Lear intentionally presented real-life uncomfortable societal situations. Bunker v. Meathead was all about the foilbles of the old and new guards. Although it has universal themes, you really can't see it without keeping the era in mind. Don't get it confroosed, cats.
Brown Sugar is offensive to me, even if it's "presented metaphorically" or as a commentary on colonial dominance.
You're right; I've been "sonned"...After reading the lyrics, it's more apparent that it's just an analogy in poor taste.
What are you, some kind of music critic or something?
P.S. Allmusic lists 'Literate' as one of the 'Moods' his music is supposed to evoke.
I think the song would be pure NAGL if it in some way condoned slavery, but I just see it as a story about what must have been going on around that time. I mean, that era, not "about midnight". Nothing more.
Just sayin' -- insert relevant leo graemlin.
Thank you
Are you really dusting off the ole some-of-my-best-friends-are-black defense?
Telling a story about an unfortunate history is one thing. But Mick duly fucked himself with all of that "just like a black girl should" bullshite.
That's the nature of music - we like what we hear on a visceral level even if, intellectually-speaking, we might discover that something is completely offensive.
As for why there wasn't an outcry in 1971, I think there's some confusion over terms and history. Yes, Black Power was in full swing by the early 1970s but it's not like people like Huey and Stokely were wielding power on the music industry to shut down songs they thought were offensive. Black Power wasn't embraced by America - it was loathed and feared - and it's not like social policy was being crafted to adjust to it...it was being forged to destroy it.
And the early '70s were anything but "PC". Political correctness didn't come into vogue until the late 1980s and even then, it wasn't the creation of the left but a brilliant rhetorical move by the right to suggest that American schools and media were being ruined by tolerance as a way to distract from the ways in which social structure explained things like social unrest, economic problems, cultural controversies and educational woes.
I seem to recall that seemingly no one caught on to the subject matter of "Billie Jean" (Michael Jackson's paternity tale) till it had already been out a few months, that's how much everybody reacted to the music.
No, the term[/b] "politically correct" didn't come into vogue until the late 1980's.
The early seventies had its' own version of it too. Without it, Meathead Stivic (Archie Bunker's son-in-law) wouldn't have had reason to exist.
I understand what you're saying here but the concept of political correctness - term or no term - is historically rooted in a backlash that may have had their roots in post-60s America but didn't really come into full fruition until the '80s. Perhaps we're agreeing on that same point.
In any case, Afrocentricity had very little to do with either since that was never embraced into the mainstream of American culture.