Wow, someone who makes Paul seem warm, fuzzy and compassionate.
Well, I can't really say I'm ashamed that perhaps I've let it be known in no uncertain terms that I wouldn't mind seeing such overtly fascistic, nazi-like fucks such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the governments of Iran, Syria, Al-Qaeda, etc., wiped from the face of the earth by any means necessary. I'm convinced that not nearly enough people see the real threat these pre-historic animals pose and incredibly, will too often substitute the US and Israel as the "real" threat to the world, not the other way around.
I'm still trying to figure out what you are saying, BigSpliff.
Cool.
I was just trying to point out that even as innocent civilians were being killed and maimed by the IRA on the UK mainland, there were plenty of people in the UK, myself included, who could see that the Irish republicans had a point, and that terrorism was a symptom of injustice. People don't blow up pubs or go on hunger strikes if all is rosy back home. Likewise, there are many, many Israelis who are disgusted with the direction their government has taken in the last 20 years. But nobody asks them. Instead we get opinions from Orthodox Brooklynites on the one side or that Mofo Pat Robertson or some Arab prince on the other, because their rants fit into soundbites. You won't learn shit from watching the news, better to read history - not the stuff about battles and dates, but the stuff about bloody human struggle against oppressive regimes. It's all a big power struggle, why do you think the Israeli government has been importing right wingers from the US?
The IRA were seen as a very, very legitimate "Freedom Fighter" organisation over here pre-9/11, but what do they mean now that there's a Global War On Terror?
The US, yet again, wants to turn something complex and messy into something pure and righteous. That means more blood all round.
PS: Caterpilar (NYSE: CAT) among others, is laughing all the way to the bank.
This is silly. Here is where your analogy fails.
1) The IRA eventually agreed to, and largely stuck by, a peace process. The Palestinian Authority rejected an offer for half of jerusalem, gaza and the west bank. 2) The IRA made no claims to the sovereignty of London or for that matter the United Kingdom. Their grievance was limited to the occupation of northern Ireland. The current party in charge of the Palestinian legislature, and the Lebanese militia threatening to blow up petrochemical facilities in Haifa, claim they are fighting for Jerusalem. 3) The latest adbuctions and missile launches against Israel during occured from territory Israel withdrew from. So while the kidnappers and bombadiers may have miserable lives, the latest political violence was caused in the absence of occupation. 4) The Israeli polity just elected a party that pledged to reverse the last 20 years of policy. Yet today in Israel, even the head of the Labor Party and current defense minister, Amir Peretz (a lifelong critic of settlements) now gives press conferences explaining his country's goal of detroying Hezbollah.
As I wrote in an earlier post, I think the Lebanon offensive is looking more like collective punishment. I don't think it will succeed in destroying Hezbollah. That said, Israel is not an empire. It's a tiny country. Almost the entire Islamic world cheers those who would destroy it. The British were ostensibly fighting for protestants. Israel is fighting for its survival.
On the topic of double standards, it will always baffle me as to why Israel can historically kill scores more civilians than their enemies, and still somehow be thought of as the more noble of nations.
From today's NY Times: "With the Lebanese death toll exceeding 200 and the Israeli count at 24, the increased efforts to turn to diplomacy showed little prospect of an immediate way out. In Lebanon, a vast majority of those killed were civilians, while in Israel about half of the dead were civilians."
It doesn't help that groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and the like explicitly, proudly and matter-of-factly tell the entire world that innocent civilians are very much fair game in their "struggle" against the Jews.
You do realize that Israel has "declared" the exact same thing. Not by words perhaps, but by their actions overwhelmingly. And they have proven it thousands of times more than the other side has.
Button[/b]: You are talking out of your ass with your misuse of numbers of civilians killed. Do you think that this is a brand new group that just popped out and declared "total war"?
And Israel has not declared that innocent civilians are fair game please point to whatever document or words you can get to prove your bullshit theory.
do the math and add in all the civilians that were purposely killed in Hezbollah and Hamas sponsored suicide bombings over the last few years.Matter-of-fact add in the kids who are sent on the suicide missions cause, according to most reports I've seen, the only people considering these poor fucks martyrs are the ones sending them off to die.
Now please go ahead and state some other bullshit numbers to tell me how monsterous Israel is in its defense of itself.
Wow, someone who makes Paul seem warm, fuzzy and compassionate.
Well, I can't really say I'm ashamed that perhaps I've let it be known in no uncertain terms that I wouldn't mind seeing such overtly fascistic, nazi-like fucks such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the governments of Iran, Syria, Al-Qaeda, etc., wiped from the face of the earth by any means necessary. I'm convinced that not nearly enough people see the real threat these pre-historic animals pose and incredibly, will too often substitute the US and Israel as the "real" threat to the world, not the other way around.
Stupid, dangerous and most definitely
This cannot be solved by violence unless there is an all out WWIII.
Wow, someone who makes Paul seem warm, fuzzy and compassionate.
Well, I can't really say I'm ashamed that perhaps I've let it be known in no uncertain terms that I wouldn't mind seeing such overtly fascistic, nazi-like fucks such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the governments of Iran, Syria, Al-Qaeda, etc., wiped from the face of the earth by any means necessary. I'm convinced that not nearly enough people see the real threat these pre-historic animals pose and incredibly, will too often substitute the US and Israel as the "real" threat to the world, not the other way around.
Stupid, dangerous and most definitely
This cannot be solved by violence unless there is an all out WWIII.
youre right, diplomacy is damn near barbaric.
the high road is total destruction of the area
after the smoke is cleared and there are no arabs and Jews all the real people, the ones born with souls, can finally be happy
Man... amplify some DNA over a few days and this thread balloons 10 pages.. amazing!
I was going to post a really long reply further justifying the position of Israel in the current struggle it faces, but there's no point. To be really honest, why this whole debate has been intellectualized to the point it has is beyond me, even, and I'm pretty good at over intellectualizing things... it just seems so obvious... the terrorists have to stop terrorism! Wow - how simple a concept! I don't understand, is that truly hard to ask of people? Is it hard to ask pelple NOT to strap themselves with dynamite around their waist, or put down those automatic weapons? Ultimately, the disagreement on that very point is the source of all the talk because the whole intention of Israel's armed defense in this particular episode of the ME conflict is to stop just that (like the many others before it)... the complexity arises because many people, though not actually taking part in terrorism such as firing DEADLY ROCKETS into cities (which though may be homemade, can and have killed), seem to think it's justified, and this includes both Arabs and non-Arabs alike the world over. My favourite apologist statement ever: "Qassams aren't mean to kill, but to deter"... oh.. I'm sorry! There must have been some miscommunication! Oh, and I guess that gun the terrorist empties into his own sister is meant not to kill her, but to say "sister, why you gotta be like that?"...
Bottom line is this - stop the bullshit with the violent jihad (most important), the virgins, the honour killings, the demanding of murderous criminals to be excused their crimes (in other parts of the world they'd be long executed already), the very discussion of whether Israel deserves to exist or not (no one talks about other country's "right to exist"), and the foolish dissent within the Jewish community (15 millions Jews worldwide and they gotta all be against one another), and people can live in peace. Olmert himself is a left-wing peacenik , who was elected clearly because the majority of Israelis are also left-wing liberals who want nothing but peace and for the economy to prosper (which along with many unfortunate civilians, is the other major victim of this war). I believe there is no other way to say it simpler than this.
do the math and add in all the civilians that were purposely killed in Hezbollah and Hamas sponsored suicide bombings over the last few years.Matter-of-fact add in the kids who are sent on the suicide missions cause, according to most reports I've seen, the only people considering these poor fucks martyrs are the ones sending them off to die.
Now please go ahead and state some other bullshit numbers to tell me how monsterous Israel is in its defense of itself.
Uh I think someone has done the math. Of course, this is from a pro-Palestinian WWW site and I'm assuming people will want to debate either sources or meanings but Guz - you put it out there: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 734 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
1,084 Israelis and 4,064 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 30,376 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO???s.
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
wiped from the face of the earth by any means necessary.
I'm convinced that not nearly enough people see the real threat these pre-historic animals pose
It's disturbing how the rhetoric remains the same even in entirely different contexts.
I'm not trying to goad you here Paul but yeah, I find your thinking perturbing. The dehumanization of people has always been the first pretext behind ethnic cleansing and genocide. You may apply your hatred towards governments and terrorist organizations but I can't see how the slope from a leadership circle down to an entire society isn't slippery.
This is hardly a defense of Iranian's president or Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever. And I'm sure they have similar things to say about Jews.
do the math and add in all the civilians that were purposely killed in Hezbollah and Hamas sponsored suicide bombings over the last few years.Matter-of-fact add in the kids who are sent on the suicide missions cause, according to most reports I've seen, the only people considering these poor fucks martyrs are the ones sending them off to die.
Now please go ahead and state some other bullshit numbers to tell me how monsterous Israel is in its defense of itself.
Uh I think someone has done the math. Of course, this is from a pro-Palestinian WWW site and I'm assuming people will want to debate either sources or meanings but Guz - you put it out there: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 734 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
1,084 Israelis and 4,064 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 30,376 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO???s.
Like you said this came from a pro-palestinan site. I beleive these numbers like I believe that Arafat bit the blowed.
the children stat looks like it was made just to pull at heartstrings and let us not discount the practice of sending palestinian kids out to throw rocks/ shoot at the enemy.
But lets just say that these numbers are correct, does it say who has killed or injured these people? methods of attack like suicide bombing isn't all that exacting are they?
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
The prisoner number is one that I'll take to be truth. I'm not with the massive lock up of political prisoners but its a tough road to navigate with that one. Israel has enemies, people that will and have killed Israelis just because they're there. Perhaps through negotiation and diplomacy these guys stand a better chance of gaining their freedom than the kidnap-and-trade move that both arab factions tried last week.
I don't know why you'd be so disbelieving of these numbers except that, if you even accept the possibility that the disproportionate ratios might be vaguely true, it might fuck up your line of argument or at least, force you to revise.
Who has died more in the Iraqi conflict? Insurgents? Or Americans? Insurgents, by FAR. Why? Because the Americans - body armor shortages aside - have superior weapons, training, armor and medical staffs.
Israel is a far more advanced nation than people living in refugee camps: yes, suicide bombing is fucking horrendous but when you're talking about killing *efficiency* AS WELL AS defensive capabilities, Israel clearly has an edge over their counterparts in the West Bank or Gaza whether you're talking about defensive military equipment and tactics that prevents attacks, bomb shelters for families (such as in Haifa) to hide in during missile raids, and far better access to medicine, doctors, surgeons, etc.
Let me be VERY CLEAR here: the lower ratio of dead Israelis is not for lack of trying. If suicide bombers could find a way to kill even more Israelis, I don't doubt they'd be out there trying for it.
But even in defense of itself (an assertation that pro-Palestinians would contest in any case), Israel is far more efficient in killing more Palestinians than the inverse. Whether they intend to be or not doesn't change the data.
What one does with that data is obviously far more subjective. And just to reiterate an earlier point, skepticism about data coming out of the entire conflict (i.e. on both sides) is likely to be practically automatic.
do the math and add in all the civilians that were purposely killed in Hezbollah and Hamas sponsored suicide bombings over the last few years.Matter-of-fact add in the kids who are sent on the suicide missions cause, according to most reports I've seen, the only people considering these poor fucks martyrs are the ones sending them off to die.
Now please go ahead and state some other bullshit numbers to tell me how monsterous Israel is in its defense of itself.
Uh I think someone has done the math. Of course, this is from a pro-Palestinian WWW site and I'm assuming people will want to debate either sources or meanings but Guz - you put it out there: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 734 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
1,084 Israelis and 4,064 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 30,376 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO???s.
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
Like you said this came from a pro-palestinan site. I beleive these numbers like I believe that Arafat bit the blowed.
the children stat looks like it was made just to pull at heartstrings and let us not discont the practice of sending palestinian kids out to throw rocks/ shoot at the enemy.
But lets just say that these number are correct, does it say who has killed or injured these people? Suicide bombing isn't all that exacting is it?
The prisoner number is one I've heard before and take to be truth. I'm not with the massive lock up of political prisoners but its a tough road to navigate with that one. Israel has enemies, people that will and have killed Israelis just because they're there. Perhaps through negotiation and diplomacy these guys stand a better chance of gaining their freedom than the kidnap-and-trade move that both arab factions tried last week.
I don't know why you'd be so disbelieving of these numbers except that, if you even accept the possibility that the disproportionate ratios might be vaguely true, it might fuck up your line of argument or at least, force you to revise.
even if it is true I don't think it messes up my argument and if those numbers are proven true I'm sorry for each and every one of those people that had to meet their end in that way. My argument really has very little to do with the amount of people who have been killed. I just don't like it when someone tries to use numbers the way Button did ignoring all the factors that may have went into those killings.
Heres an article from a decidedly Pro-Israeli website that talks on what I'm trying to say:
The media reports Mideast casualties by lumping suicide bombers together with their innocent civilians. A new study breaks the myth.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been marred by many casualties on both sides. Between Oct. 2000 and June 2002, the war had killed 561 Israelis and 1,499 Palestinians.
But a new study claims that these numbers obscure the reality of the conflict, combining combatants with non-combatants, and suicide bombers with their civilian victims. Since much of the case swinging world opinion against Israel hinges on the perception that Israel has killed far more Palestinian innocents than vice versa, these numbers possess a political importance beyond simple accounting.
The study, from the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT), examined reports of deaths in order to go beyond a simplistic notation of civilians and non-civilians. It is a common differentiation, but one which obscures more than it enlightens. Since most Israelis serve in the Israeli military and remain active as reserves, it is easy to call an Israeli fatality a "soldier." On the other side, since the Intifada is essentially a low-intensity guerilla conflict, few members of groups like Hamas or Islamic Jihad can be classified as uniformed soldiers.
Hence, rather than fighting a semantic battle, the ICT tried to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants and to figure out who might have killed whom. Taking that into account, the ICT concluded that about 579 non-combatant Palestinians (just over 38 percent of all Palestinian casualties) were killed by Israelis and 433 non-combatant Israelis (about 80 percent of all Israeli casualties) were killed by Palestinians.
While Israeli casualties make up about 27 percent of the total fatalities (as they are usually reported in the media), they actually represent about 43 percent of the non-combatant fatalities.
When it comes to Palestinian fatalities, it is also important to note that it is not just the Israelis doing the killing. There has been a steady increase in the number of Palestinians killed, in one way or another, by their own side.
Approximately 189 Palestinians were killed while committing a suicide bombing, in "work accidents," in intra-Palestinian conflict, or as so-called "collaborators." These 189 fatalities do not even include "suicide shooters" -- Palestinians who attacked Israelis with the expectation of death, but did not specifically blow themselves up.
Islamic names are often long and spellings vary, so it can be hard to determine whether or not several different names actually refer to the same person. (The same problem has also clouded the debate over Afghan civilian casualties. See http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350 &CID=1051-030402A)
In addition, detailed Palestinian casualty reports usually emanate from Palestinian organizations or individuals, which have sometimes been characterized as biased or even fraudulent. Depending on where one reads about them, news accounts can vary dramatically. If the Israeli government maintained a precise record of every incident of weapon use, it might be possible to verify the status of more of the Palestinian casualties. No such record is available..."
Israel's Prime Minister Speaks[/b] by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
The Knesset, July 17, 2006 Madam Speaker, Ladies and gentlemen, Members of Knesset,
At the outset, I offer condolences, on my behalf and on behalf of the government, the Knesset and the entire nation, to the families of the victims -- both civilian and IDF. I also send best wishes for recovery to the wounded, and a huge embrace for the families of those kidnapped and the boys themselves.
Over the past few weeks, our enemies have challenged the sovereignty of the State of Israel and the safety of its residents - first in the southern sector, then on the northern border, and deeper into the home front.
Israel did not seek these confrontations. On the contrary. We have done a lot to prevent them. We returned to the borders of the State of Israel, recognized by the entire international community. There were those who misconstrued our desire for peace - for us and our neighbors - as a sign of frailty. Our enemies misinterpreted our willingness to exercise restraint as a sign of weakness.
They were wrong!
Madam Speaker, Members of Knesset,
The State of Israel has no territorial conflict, neither on our southern border nor on our northern one.
In these two areas, we are sitting on the recognized international border - both vis-??-vis the Palestinian Authority in the Gaza Strip, and in Lebanon.
We have no intention of interfering in their internal affairs. On the contrary, stability and tranquility in Lebanon, free of the rule of foreign powers, and in the Palestinian Authority, are in Israel's interest.
We yearn for the day when peace will prevail between us, for the mutual benefit of our peoples from both sides of our common border.
The campaign we are engaged in these days is against the terror organizations operating from Lebanon and Gaza. These organizations are nothing but "sub-contractors" operating under the inspiration, permission, instigation and financing of the terror-sponsoring and peace-rejecting regimes, on the Axis of Evil which stretches from Tehran to Damascus.
Lebanon has suffered heavily in the past, when it allowed foreign powers to gamble on its fate.
Iran and Syria still continue to meddle, from afar, in the affairs of Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority, through Hizballah and the Hamas.
Even if last Wednesday's criminal attack against an IDF patrol was carried out without the consent of the Lebanese government and without the assistance of its military, this does not absolve it of full responsibility for the attack which emanated from its sovereign territory. Just as the fact that the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority opposes terrorism against Israel does not relieve him and the Palestinian Authority of their responsibility for the attack carried out from their territory against our soldiers in Kerem Shalom. They are both fully responsible for the safety of our soldiers who were taken hostage.
Radical, terrorist and violent elements are sabotaging the life of the entire region and placing its stability at risk. The region in which we live is threatened by these murderous terror groups.
It is a regional - as well as global - interest to take control and terminate their activity.
We can all see how the majority of the international community supports our battle against the terror organizations and our efforts to remove this threat of the Middle East.
We intend to do this. We will continue to operate in full force until we achieve this. On the Palestinian front, we will conduct a tireless battle until terror ceases, Gilad Shalit is returned home safely and the shooting of Qassam missiles stops.
And in Lebanon, we will insist on compliance with the terms stipulated long ago by the international community, as unequivocally expressed only yesterday in the resolution of the 8 leading countries of the world:
- The return of the hostages, Ehud (Udi) Goldwasser and Eldad Regev; - A complete cease fire; - Deployment of the Lebanese army in all of Southern Lebanon; - Expulsion of Hizballah from the area, and fulfillment of United Nations Resolution 1559.
We will not suspend our actions.
On both fronts we are exercising self-defense in the most basic and essential sense. In both cases, it is a matter whose importance and significance go far beyond the size of the military units involved.
We are at a national moment of truth. Will we consent to living under the threat of this Axis of Evil or will we mobilize our inner strength and show determination and equanimity?
Our answer is clear to every Israeli, and it echoes today throughout the entire region.
We will search every compound, target every terrorist who assists in attacking the citizens of Israel, and destroy every terrorist infrastructure, everywhere. We will persist until Hizballah and Hamas comply with those basic and decent things required of them by every civilized person. Israel will not agree to live in the shadow of missiles or rockets against its residents.
Citizens of Israel,
There are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more!
And I say to everyone: no more! Israel will not be held hostage -- not by terror gangs or by a terrorist authority or by any sovereign state.
In the life of a nation there are moments of transcendence, of purification, when political and sectarian disputes which separate us are replaced by a sense of mutual responsibility. I highly value and appreciate the way the Opposition has been conducting itself in the Knesset these days. The human competition and personal rivalries are dissolved and instead our feeling of mutual responsibility arises, our sense of partnership, and primarily, our eternal love for our people and our land.
This is such a moment!
All of us -- Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians -- now stand as one person, as one nation, subject together to the same hatred and malice, and fighting against it in consensus and partnership. When missiles are launched at our residents and cities, our answer will be war with all the strength, determination, valor, sacrifice and dedication which characterize this nation.
There is nothing we want more than peace and good neighborly relations -- in the east, north and south. We seek peace, we pursue peace and we yearn for peace. At the same time, there is nothing we reject more than an attempt to harm us and make us give up our right to live here, in our land, in security and peace.
On behalf of the people of Israel, on behalf of all the residents of the country, I came here today, Madam Speaker, to announce to the world: we seek neither war nor direct confrontation, but we will not be deterred from them when the need arises. Only a nation that can defend its freedom truly deserves it. We are entitled to our freedom, and when necessary, we know how to fight for it and defend it.
My fellow Members of Knesset,
The strength of the State of Israel relies on the strength and capability of the IDF. This strength is the main guarantee to preserving and defending our lives on this land. The best economic and human resources of Israeli society were invested in building this strength.
I want to extend from here my heartfelt gratitude - and that of the Government and the people of Israel - to the IDF soldiers and commanders, the security services, the Israel Police, the rescue forces, the firefighters and the othe
r security forces.
I wish to read from the "Prayer for the Welfare of Soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces". Millions of Jews -- in Israel and the world -- pray for the safety and success of those who defend our nation, from the Lebanese border to the desert, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Arava, on the land, in the air and on the sea.
"May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them.
May the Holy One, blessed be He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.
May He lead our enemies under our soldiers' sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory".
The strength of a nation is measured not only by its military capabilities.
The strength of a nation is measured by its welfare and morality, its strong and solid economy, its modern and developing market, its export of technologies and products for the most advanced world markets and its ground-breaking academic research. In all these, each and every one of us has good reason to be proud.
But above all, the strength of a nation is measured in times of trial, when the home front becomes the front, when the citizens of the country show admirable fortitude, patience and stamina and allow it to operate against its enemies.
I had the privilege of witnessing these inner strengths in the years when I was Mayor of Jerusalem. For years, our capital was subject to the most murderous terror attacks. The resilience, patience and restraint of the residents of Jerusalem and the entire citizens of Israel are exemplary.
I recall a conversation with Rudy Giuliani, who was Mayor of New York during the terror attacks of September 2001. I called to offer encouragement to him and the residents of New York following the collapse of the Twin Towers, and he replied: "Ehud, if the New Yorkers can withstand it like the Jerusalemites do, then we will defeat terrorism".
Madam Speaker, Ladies and gentlemen Members of Knesset, Citizens of Israel,
Even in these days, hundreds of thousands of Israelis stand at the front line of fire, like soldiers in the battlefield, fighting for our life and honor.
It is clear to us that the circumstances imposed upon the residents compel us to address their special needs, in all aspects. The government will lend immediate assistance, everywhere.
The government of Israel, under my leadership, derives strength from the stamina of the Israeli public. We are a brave and determined nation. I am proud today -- perhaps more than ever before -- to be an Israeli citizen.
Thanks to you, our enemies come up against a united nation, which fights together, shoulder to shoulder. We do not surrender and we do not panic.
We believe in the justice of our cause, because there is no battle more just or moral than ours -- a battle for the right to a peaceful and normal life, like any other human being, any other nation and any other state.
We fight for the right of children like Omer Pisachov, may his memory be blessed, a 7 year old from Nahariya, who wanted to visit his grandmother Yehudit Itzkovich, may her memory be blessed, and enjoy the Sabbath dinner she prepared;
We fight for the right of citizens like Shmuel Ben-Shimon, may his memory be blessed, a 41 year old from Yokne'am who left every morning for work in the railway garage in Haifa to support his wife Natalie and their small children;
We fight for the right of citizens like Monica Lerer, may her memory be blessed, a 50 year old from Nahariya, to drink coffee on the terrace in the country to which she immigrated from Argentina;
We fight for the right of girls like Ella Abukasis, may her memory be blessed, a 13 year old from Sderot, to play the flute and read books, as Ella enjoyed doing.
We fight for everything that everyone in the enlightened world takes for granted and never imagined that they would have to fight for - the right to a normal life.
It is a difficult battle! It may become even more difficult. It is a painful test, and we may have to bear more suffering. Such a battle is never easy. It is strewn with pain and suffering, sacrifice, and casualties.
But, we have no intention of giving up our desire to live a normal life. We will not apologize for this desire, and we do not need anyone's approval to defend ourselves.
Citizens of Israel,
This is a difficult time of trial for all of us.
The State of Israel has withstood much more complex trials - and triumphed.
We have always known how to mobilize our inner strength, equanimity, wisdom and patience, in order to overcome our enemies.
Finally, I wish to speak on a more personal note to the families of Shalit, Goldwasser and Regev, the families of the soldiers who are held hostage by the Hamas and Hizballah.
You, and mainly your children - our children - are always on my mind.
Last Wednesday, only five days ago, at 10:00 am, Aviva and Noam Shalit sat in my office. They, and I, want Gilad home more than anything. While we were discussing the situation, I - and Aviva and Noam - received the painful news that Ehud (Udi) Goldwasser and Eldad Regev had been kidnapped.
On their departure, Noam and Aviva left a picture of Gilad, taken close to the date of his kidnapping.
Unfortunately, pictures of three boys now stand in my room. Many times during the day I look in their faces, into their eyes, and embrace them in my heart. I do not forget them for one minute. They were there on our behalf and for our sake. We will do everything and make every effort to bring them home. We will do this, but not in a pattern that will encourage more kidnappings.
There is almost no one who can understand the place you are in. Even when we do not talk directly, I feel and hear what you want to say to me, and I embrace you with love, understanding and agreement.
The place I am in compels me, ultimately, to make fateful decisions, for life, and sometimes even for death.
I have no strength other than that which you have bestowed upon me.
I have no courage other than that which God, my faith in the justice of our cause and my sense of supreme responsibility, have instilled in me and have prepared me for these fateful moments.
Madam Speaker,
I see before me the kidnapped boys, those standing in the front line and in the line of fire, those brave and determined ones who are fighting today and who could -- God forbid -- be the target of tomorrow's kidnapping.
We will defend all of them, on behalf of all of them we will fight, and with all of them before our eyes -- the civilians in the line of fire, the kidnapped fighters and their families -- we will continue, without hesitating, without capitulating and without fretting, until our goals are achieved.
I wish to conclude by reading an extract from Prophet Jeremiah:
"Thus said Hashem: a voice is heard on high, wailing, bitter weeping, Rachel weeps for her children; she refuses to be consoled for her children, for they are gone.
Thus said Hashem: restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears; for there is reward for your accomplishment -- the word of Hashem -- and they will return from the enemy's land.
There is hope for your future -- the word of Hashem; And your children will return to their land."
"The outlines of an American-Israeli consensus began to emerge on Tuesday in which Israel would continue to bombard Lebanon for about another week[/b] to degrade the capabilities of the Hezbollah militia, officials of the two countries said.
American officials signaled that Ms. Rice was waiting at least a few more days before wading into the conflict, in part to give Israel more time to weaken Hezbollah forces.
The strategy carries risk, partly because it remains unclear just how long the rest of the world, particularly America???s Arab allies, will continue to stay silent as the toll on Lebanese civilians rises.
On Tuesday, the seventh day of the face-off, Israeli warplanes battered more targets in Lebanon, killing 30 people, including 11 members of the Lebanese Army, when bombs hit their barracks east of Beirut. Four of the dead were officers, and 30 more soldiers were wounded.
In southern Lebanon, nine members of a single family were killed and four wounded in an Israeli airstrike on their house in the village of Aitaroun, near the Israeli border.
Some 500,000 Lebanese have fled their homes to escape the violence, the United Nations estimated.[/b]
Hezbollah rockets again hit Israel???s port city of Haifa and Nahariya, a coastal town just south of the border, where one man died and several were wounded, one critically. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis continued to spend their time in shelters, and Haifa was largely shut down, with only grocery stores and pharmacies open. More than 130 rockets were fired, Israeli officials said.
Again on Tuesday, cities and towns in southern Lebanon and the densely packed slums at the southern edge of Beirut that are Hezbollah???s stronghold bore the brunt of the barrage. While the Israelis say they have carefully targeted 1,000 sites thus far, the attacks seem to have spread almost randomly across the country.[/b]
In the interview, Mr. Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, said that he favored a release of the two Israeli soldiers. But he coupled that call with other requirements.
Any solution to the crisis, he said, should include Israel???s withdrawal from the disputed Shebaa Farms area of the border, the release of Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails and a return to the terms of the 1949 armistice between the two countries.
He suggested the Lebanese Army would move to southern Lebanon once these conditions were met. He backed the idea of a more robust international force, but only after ???all the issues??? were put on the table, and he stopped short of condemning Hezbollah for inviting the Israeli attacks on the rest of the country."
Not to further stir the pot here, but Oliver's brother-in-blog, Junichi, has an interesting and concise take on things that's worth reading.
"I've spent a week trying to write about the new tragedies and travesties in Lebanon and Israel. Under any circumstance, I'd be depressed from the endless cycle of violence, angry with Hezbollah, and especially outraged at the complete over-reaction of the Israeli military, which continues to indiscriminately bomb civilian targets in Lebanon without any clear military objective.
But it's especially difficult for me to hear the news since much of my wife's family is in Lebanon; her grandmother is stuck in Syria, unable to get back home.
Regardless, the latest attacks are an unmitigated disaster of unconscionable proportions from any angle.
Let's be clear: Hezbollah's kidnapping Israeli soldiers and initial attack on one of Israel's military targets were reprehensible.
But Israel's response continues to be wildly disproportionate, violative of international law, and against the interests of its own people, assuming Israel's long-term goal is to ensure lasting peace and security in the region. I'd compare Israel's latest actions to someone with a bad temper seeking vindictive justice, if it weren't for the gravity of the mounting death toll and the fact that Israel has nukes in its holster, which makes the analogy just as incongruous as their counteroffensive.
Olmert is engaged in prolonged indiscriminate punishment, refusing to distinguish between innocent civilians and Hezbollah militants. Contrary to what American newsheads say, he is not engaged in tit-for-tat warfare, most obviously evidenced by the fact that 140 Lebanese civilians have died, compared to 24 Israelis, only 12 of whom are civilians. Many Israelis have taken shelter underground, but almost 100,000 Lebanese people have had to flee and take refuge elsewhere.
At this point, I doubt Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert cares much about the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers that started this war.
I'd like to believe Israel doesn't have plans for a ground campaign and a new occupation, but I am especially skeptical after Israel just rejected Kofi Annan's call for a UN international monitoring force to be deployed in Lebanon.
I don't deny that the Lebanese government bears some responsibility for Hezbollah's actions. But attacking all of Lebanon for Hezbollah's actions is equivalent to attacking all United States citizens for crimes committed by gangs or Mafia located within our border. Or, if you prefer, it's equivalent to attacking all Iraqi citizens for the crimes of Iraqi insurgents.
The bottom line is that when the Israeli military is engaging in a complete aerial, land, and sea blockade of Lebanon -- by bombing the airport, burning bridges (literally and figuratively), and cutting the Lebanese off from food and water -- I can't imagine any other result than further radicalization and growing numbers of extremists on both sides.
This escalating war is especially tragic since Lebanon has been steadily rebuilding its country since the last Israeli occupation and has become the hot poster child for democracy in the Middle East. This 2005 Economist Magazine cover speaks volumes. This progress has practically vanished in a matter of seven days.
Even from the vantage point of the United States, George Bush is clearly worsening this country's security by defending Israel's assaults. His position -- which is that one country has the right to do whatever the hell it wants in order to protect itself from the abstract idea of "terrorism" -- only further confirms our arrogance in the eyes of those who hate us. His focus on 'who started it' is not only sophomoric and embarrassing, it's wrong and an invitation for others to "bring it on."
Just in case I've lost you, I ask you consider the following:
Imagine if the Zapatista Army in Chiapas kidnapped two American border patrol guards and fired rockets into Del Rio, Texas. Would the United States have the right to defend itself against the rebels? Absolutely. Would the US be justified in bombing the Mexico City airport, preventing all Mexicans from traveling, cutting off food distribution to Mexico, and engaging in a bombing campaign that targeted civilian areas not known to be occupied by the Chiapas rebels? Hell to the no. In fact, we'd be in clear violation of international law.
There are obviously other complicated cans of worms I could open that involve Palestine, Iran, Syria, and the United States' war on Iraq, but I'll stop here for now." --Junichi www.poplicks.com
It's disturbing how the rhetoric remains the same even in entirely different contexts.
I'm not trying to goad you here Paul but yeah, I find your thinking perturbing. The dehumanization of people has always been the first pretext behind ethnic cleansing and genocide. You may apply your hatred towards governments and terrorist organizations but I can't see how the slope from a leadership circle down to an entire society isn't slippery.
This is hardly a defense of Iranian's president or Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever. And I'm sure they have similar things to say about Jews.
Rhetoric / schmetoric. The "rhetoric" here dear Oliver, is completely justified. First of all, I do not literally value death more than life and teach my children to become suicide bombers from the time they are old enough to walk. Do you really want me to run down the list? I think not. This is an INhumane sub-culture Oliver. Read: NOT HUMAN. Period. And not only do I make no apologies for saying it, but I find it frankly disturbing that you refuse to recognize it. Now whether that's because you refuse to see things in absolutes - such good and evil - of which this is clearly the latter - I don't know. But you just proved whole my point here and that's rather "disturbing".
I also find it interesting that you seem to preface every post/reply with "this is hardly a defensive of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc." You're starting to make me wonder, what the fuck is it, then? Exactly why do you feel the need to keep saying that? Are you concerned that what you say may be misconstrued as sympathy for the devil? Again, do you even see this whole movement as evil?
Of course I'm not referring to an entire race or people, and I frankly resent that you'd imply I would. Does one's denouncement / rejection of Nazism or White Supremacy ultimately lead to the ethnic cleansing of whites? Of course not Oliver. Give me a fucking break.
You on the other hand, seem completely unwilling to even acknowledge this massive sub-culture of death as a threat to modern civilization (or if it's recognized and critisized as such you dismiss it outright as a dangerous pre-cursor to "ethnic cleansing"??!!)
So Paul, what are you going to think of Israel if in a couple weeks they call off their attacks on Lebanon and diplomacy starts and some deal is negotiated? Likewise, Israel pulls out of Gaza pretty soon, and everything returns to the status quo. Hamas and Hezbollah will still be around.
On the topic of double standards, it will always baffle me as to why Israel can historically kill scores more civilians than their enemies, and still somehow be thought of as the more noble of nations.
From today's NY Times: "With the Lebanese death toll exceeding 200 and the Israeli count at 24, the increased efforts to turn to diplomacy showed little prospect of an immediate way out. In Lebanon, a vast majority of those killed were civilians, while in Israel about half of the dead were civilians."
It doesn't help that groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and the like explicitly, proudly and matter-of-factly tell the entire world that innocent civilians are very much fair game in their "struggle" against the Jews.
You do realize that Israel has "declared" the exact same thing. Not by words perhaps, but by their actions overwhelmingly. And they have proven it thousands of times more than the other side has.
Button[/b]: You are talking out of your ass with your misuse of numbers of civilians killed. Do you think that this is a brand new group that just popped out and declared "total war"?
And Israel has not declared that innocent civilians are fair game please point to whatever document or words you can get to prove your bullshit theory.
do the math and add in all the civilians that were purposely killed in Hezbollah and Hamas sponsored suicide bombings over the last few years.Matter-of-fact add in the kids who are sent on the suicide missions cause, according to most reports I've seen, the only people considering these poor fucks martyrs are the ones sending them off to die.
Now please go ahead and state some other bullshit numbers to tell me how monsterous Israel is in its defense of itself.
Guzzo, I'm well aware that this problem is more than a week old. I was merely using the quote from today to show these actions fit into a long running pattern. That pattern is this: Israel kills far more civilians than its adversaries. The numbers Odub posted are the numbers you'll find anywhere, give or take. Even if you have beef with how Palestinian deaths are tallied, it still can't possibly speak for such a large gap. If you have problems with those stats, I believe the burden of proof is on you to find alternates.
I personally can't make any moral distiction between blowing up a cafe, and firing missles into a crowd of civilians to kill one or two terror suspects. Does technology justify killing of innocents in your eyes? Just as the killing of your brothers and sisters enrages you, can't you see how the magnified killing of theirs will do the same? It's funny to me how you can scoff at stats off a pro-palestine website, whille immediately posting essays off of obviously pro-Israeli hubs to make your point.
Which, in a way, does nothing but illustrate what the larger problem in this whole thing really is...
It's disturbing how the rhetoric remains the same even in entirely different contexts.
I'm not trying to goad you here Paul but yeah, I find your thinking perturbing. The dehumanization of people has always been the first pretext behind ethnic cleansing and genocide. You may apply your hatred towards governments and terrorist organizations but I can't see how the slope from a leadership circle down to an entire society isn't slippery.
This is hardly a defense of Iranian's president or Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever. And I'm sure they have similar things to say about Jews.
Rhetoric / schmetoric. The "rhetoric" here dear Oliver, is completely justified. First of all, I do not literally value death more than life and teach my children to become suicide bombers from the time they are old enough to walk. Do you really want me to run down the list? I think not. This is an INhumane sub-culture Oliver. Read: NOT HUMAN. Period. And not only do I make no apologies for saying it, but I find it frankly disturbing that you refuse to recognize it. Now whether that's because you refuse to see things in absolutes - such good and evil - of which this is clearly the latter - I don't know. But you just proved whole my point here and that's rather "disturbing".
I also find it interesting that you seem to preface every post/reply with "this is hardly a defensive of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc." You're starting to make me wonder, what the fuck is it, then? Exactly why do you feel the need to keep saying that? Are you concerned that what you say may be misconstrued as sympathy for the devil? Again, do you even see this whole movement as evil?
Of course I'm not referring to an entire race or people, and I frankly resent that you'd imply I would. Does one's denouncement / rejection of Nazism or White Supremacy ultimately lead to the ethnic cleansing of whites? Of course not Oliver. Give me a fucking break.
You on the other hand, seem completely unwilling to even acknowledge this massive sub-culture of death as a threat to modern civilization (or if it's recognized and critisized as such you dismiss it outright as a dangerous pre-cursor to "ethnic cleansing"??!!)
Please.
Again...
Sad, dangerous and
Have you ever been to or met people from the countries that you espouse this cleansing to take place in? I would be sad not to know my homie from Syria. I understand outrage, but to blame a whole culture for the misdeeds or misdirection aof disprapprotionate minority is just sad. I am sorry but the blind hatred that you spew on this board via your anger is scary and sad to me. It puts you on equal footing as the people you espouse to hate.
So Paul, what are you going to think of Israel if in a couple weeks they call off their attacks on Lebanon and diplomacy starts and some deal is negotiated? Likewise, Israel pulls out of Gaza pretty soon, and everything returns to the status quo. Hamas and Hezbollah will still be around.
What, do you think I'd be all upset because Israel didn't slaughter as many Hezbollah as they could? Sorry to disappoint you, but no.
Let me tell you something, Motown. A few months ago you might or might not remember the story of an Egyptian ferry that capsized & 100's of passengers (mostly Arab/ African muslims) drowned. When the news first broke about a ship in distress, Israel very quickly offered assitance since they had ships in the immediate area. Egypt flatly turned Israel down. In other words, they would rather let their poeple drown than allow them to be saved by (shudder) Jews. This only cemented my belief that there is absolutely no hope of peace in the middle east. At least not in my lifetime.
So, yeah. I expect that in a week or two, there will be some sort of cease fire and that things will probably go back to the way things were, more or less. That is not to say that Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. should not be eliminated from the face of the earth. Bottom line: If the world doesn't quickly wake the fuck up and systematically destroy these fuckers, then they will do their very best, from now until the end of days, to destroy us. That is a fact. And they've had a good 15 years worth of practice to prepare.
Paul: Point tooken. I made poor assumptions. But seriously dude, most of what you post lacks nuance and you have a flair for the extreme.
And if I keep having to say, "I'm not defending [fill in blank here]" it's because you seem to presume that anyone even floating out a critique of this shit you kick must be down with terrorists and all for killing Israelis. It's some serious "if you're not down with me, you're against me" mentality. Clearly, I'm not the only one who feels this way but whatever: I'm not trying to change you. Do you.
I wasn't trying to goad (sp?) you on. You just talk in absolutes all the time, yet the way things actually play out in the world are often not like that. For example, you want Hezbollah to be destroyed yet we both seem to agree that probably won't happen after this encounter and things will return to the status quo. You also often seem to advocate killing people as the solution to the evils of the world, and yet the use of force doesn't always work and sometimes makes things worse. When Israel last invaded Lebanon it ended up creating Hezbollah. More recently, a lot of the leaders of Al Qaeda have been rounded up or killed by the U.S. since 9/11 yet Bin Laden's ideas appear to be more popular than ever right now, and many terrorist attacks like the London and Madrid bombings are made by home grown groups that were never part of any terrorist organization, but were simply inspired by the words of Al Qaeda. Taking on these threats requires more than just blowing shit up. Real situations are lot more complicated than knee jerk reactions to just go fuck up the terrorists after they've attacked. I'm sure Palestinians are still going to be shooting rockets at Israel in the future, but those basicaly cannot be stopped by military means. Just my 2 cents.
Have you ever been to or met people from the countries that you espouse this cleansing to take place in? I would be sad not to know my homie from Syria. I understand outrage, but to blame a whole culture for the misdeeds or misdirection aof disprapprotionate minority is just sad. I am sorry but the blind hatred that you spew on this board via your anger is scary and sad to me. It puts you on equal footing as the people you espouse to hate.
Please. To even suggest that I am on "equal footing" with the people I "espouse to hate" tells me that you have absolutely no clue as to what this extremist, wacko sub-culture is all about.
And oh yes, peep the keyword... "SUB-culture".
As in, how many times do I have to explain to you that I am NOT dismissing an entire culture, race or religion of peoples - but rather a HUGE contingent of extremists that still number in the many MILLIONS out of a BILLION + muslims throughout the entire globe? (need I remind you that a "disprapprotionate minority" of .... oh let's just say, conservatively speaking, ONE BILLION musims.... is still in the tens - if not hundreds - of MILLIONS?)
Are we so fucking P.C. now that the very act of calling out wacko muslims constitutes the ravings of a racist, hate-filled and disturbed man who ultimately seeks the genocide of every muslim on earth?
Paul: Point tooken. I made poor assumptions. But seriously dude, most of what you post lacks nuance and you have a flair for the extreme.
Hmm. Well, not for nothing, but when reacting to the sort of "extremist" ideology and ultra-violent world of "extremist" muslims, I think "nuance" is clearly out the fucking door, Oliver. Sorry. Dealing with such a SUB-culture requires an equally "extreme" reaction in my opinion. Otherwise, what's the point? You're dead. I really hope you know this and that you're just fucking with me. Seriously. "Nuance", dude?
And if I keep having to say, "I'm not defending [fill in blank here]" it's because you seem to presume that anyone even floating out a critique of this shit you kick must be down with terrorists and all for killing Israelis.
Not at all, Oliver. First time I've brought it up. My whole issue here is the lack of moral and cultural distinction between extremist muslims and Israel. As far as I'm concerned, there is simply not enough outrage and denouncement of Hezbollah (other than "I'm not defending them"), their ideology or their actions that brought us here in the first place. It's not about "you're either with us or you're against us" (nice try), but rather taking a stand and making a very clear distinction between the two entities and what they really stand for. I just feel that there's not enough of that and too much of an effort being made (sub-consciously or not) to place both parties on equal pedestals in some way, shape or form. Absolutes? Yes, but I think that's required here.
You just talk in absolutes all the time, yet the way things actually play out in the world are often not like that.
As I just got done telling Oliver, "absolutes" are required when dealing with absolute maniacs. This seems to be a key point of contention that many here seem to miss completely. More on that below.
For example, you want Hezbollah to be destroyed yet we both seem to agree that probably won't happen after this encounter and things will return to the status quo. You also often seem to advocate killing people as the solution to the evils of the world, and yet the use of force doesn't always work and sometimes makes things worse. When Israel last invaded Lebanon it ended up creating Hezbollah. More recently, a lot of the leaders of Al Qaeda have been rounded up or killed by the U.S. since 9/11 yet Bin Laden's ideas appear to be more popular than ever right now, and many terrorist attacks like the London and Madrid bombings are made by home grown groups that were never part of any terrorist organization, but were simply inspired by the words of Al Qaeda. Taking on these threats requires more than just blowing shit up. Real situations are lot more complicated than knee jerk reactions to just go fuck up the terrorists after they've attacked. I'm sure Palestinians are still going to be shooting rockets at Israel in the future, but those basicaly cannot be stopped by military means. Just my 2 cents.
Please give me more credit than this. Not to sound redundant (as I feel I'm just repeating myself here over and over again), but my entire issue here is what I perceive to be a general lack of recognition of (yes) the absolute evil inherent in this extremist sub-culture. I know a lot of heads don't even like to use the word evil, for one, because it does in fact constitute an absloute. But there it is. This is in fact an evil sub-culture. There is no moral equivalency between muslim extremists like Hamas or Hezbollah and Israel. None. And that, I believe, is truly the crux of the debate although it's not being addressed.
For those confused about the israeli strategy I interepret the ferocity of the action as being as much a message to the UN and the lebanese government as it is about attacking hezbollah. It seems to me theyre saying 'If you dont honour your pledge and do something about hezbollah we will, and you arent going to like what we're going to do about it'.
For those confused about the israeli strategy I interepret the ferocity of the action as being as much a message to the UN and the lebanese government as it is about attacking hezbollah. It seems to me theyre saying 'If you dont honour your pledge and do something about hezbollah we will, and you arent going to like what we're going to do about it'.
i.e. "If you can't sort out the (foreign-supported) terrorists in your country after we've destroyed your army and infrastructure, we'll quite happily kill your civilians with little discrimination".
Comments
Well, I can't really say I'm ashamed that perhaps I've let it be known in no uncertain terms that I wouldn't mind seeing such overtly fascistic, nazi-like fucks such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the governments of Iran, Syria, Al-Qaeda, etc., wiped from the face of the earth by any means necessary.
I'm convinced that not nearly enough people see the real threat these pre-historic animals pose and incredibly, will too often substitute the US and Israel as the "real" threat to the world, not the other way around.
Stupid, dangerous and most definitely
This is silly. Here is where your analogy fails.
1) The IRA eventually agreed to, and largely stuck by, a peace process. The Palestinian Authority rejected an offer for half of jerusalem, gaza and the west bank.
2) The IRA made no claims to the sovereignty of London or for that matter the United Kingdom. Their grievance was limited to the occupation of northern Ireland. The current party in charge of the Palestinian legislature, and the Lebanese militia threatening to blow up petrochemical facilities in Haifa, claim they are fighting for Jerusalem.
3) The latest adbuctions and missile launches against Israel during occured from territory Israel withdrew from. So while the kidnappers and bombadiers may have miserable lives, the latest political violence was caused in the absence of occupation.
4) The Israeli polity just elected a party that pledged to reverse the last 20 years of policy. Yet today in Israel, even the head of the Labor Party and current defense minister, Amir Peretz (a lifelong critic of settlements) now gives press conferences explaining his country's goal of detroying Hezbollah.
As I wrote in an earlier post, I think the Lebanon offensive is looking more like collective punishment. I don't think it will succeed in destroying Hezbollah. That said, Israel is not an empire. It's a tiny country. Almost the entire Islamic world cheers those who would destroy it. The British were ostensibly fighting for protestants. Israel is fighting for its survival.
Button[/b]: You are talking out of your ass with your misuse of numbers of civilians killed. Do you think that this is a brand new group that just popped out and declared "total war"?
And Israel has not declared that innocent civilians are fair game please point to whatever document or words you can get to prove your bullshit theory.
do the math and add in all the civilians that were purposely killed in Hezbollah and Hamas sponsored suicide bombings over the last few years.Matter-of-fact add in the kids who are sent on the suicide missions cause, according to most reports I've seen, the only people considering these poor fucks martyrs are the ones sending them off to die.
Now please go ahead and state some other bullshit numbers to tell me how monsterous Israel is in its defense of itself.
This cannot be solved by violence unless there is an all out WWIII.
youre right, diplomacy is damn near barbaric.
the high road is total destruction of the area
after the smoke is cleared and there are no arabs and Jews all the real people, the ones born with souls, can finally be happy
I was going to post a really long reply further justifying the position of Israel in the current struggle it faces, but there's no point. To be really honest, why this whole debate has been intellectualized to the point it has is beyond me, even, and I'm pretty good at over intellectualizing things... it just seems so obvious... the terrorists have to stop terrorism! Wow - how simple a concept! I don't understand, is that truly hard to ask of people? Is it hard to ask pelple NOT to strap themselves with dynamite around their waist, or put down those automatic weapons? Ultimately, the disagreement on that very point is the source of all the talk because the whole intention of Israel's armed defense in this particular episode of the ME conflict is to stop just that (like the many others before it)... the complexity arises because many people, though not actually taking part in terrorism such as firing DEADLY ROCKETS into cities (which though may be homemade, can and have killed), seem to think it's justified, and this includes both Arabs and non-Arabs alike the world over. My favourite apologist statement ever: "Qassams aren't mean to kill, but to deter"... oh.. I'm sorry! There must have been some miscommunication! Oh, and I guess that gun the terrorist empties into his own sister is meant not to kill her, but to say "sister, why you gotta be like that?"...
Bottom line is this - stop the bullshit with the violent jihad (most important), the virgins, the honour killings, the demanding of murderous criminals to be excused their crimes (in other parts of the world they'd be long executed already), the very discussion of whether Israel deserves to exist or not (no one talks about other country's "right to exist"), and the foolish dissent within the Jewish community (15 millions Jews worldwide and they gotta all be against one another), and people can live in peace. Olmert himself is a left-wing peacenik
Uh I think someone has done the math.
Of course, this is from a pro-Palestinian WWW site and I'm assuming people will want to debate either sources or meanings but Guz - you put it out there:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 734 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.
1,084 Israelis and 4,064 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.
7,633 Israelis and 30,376 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO???s.
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.
It's disturbing how the rhetoric remains the same even in entirely different contexts.
I'm not trying to goad you here Paul but yeah, I find your thinking perturbing. The dehumanization of people has always been the first pretext behind ethnic cleansing and genocide. You may apply your hatred towards governments and terrorist organizations but I can't see how the slope from a leadership circle down to an entire society isn't slippery.
This is hardly a defense of Iranian's president or Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever. And I'm sure they have similar things to say about Jews.
Like you said this came from a pro-palestinan site. I beleive these numbers like I believe that Arafat bit the blowed.
the children stat looks like it was made just to pull at heartstrings and let us not discount the practice of sending palestinian kids out to throw rocks/ shoot at the enemy.
But lets just say that these numbers are correct, does it say who has killed or injured these people? methods of attack like suicide bombing isn't all that exacting are they?
The prisoner number is one that I'll take to be truth. I'm not with the massive lock up of political prisoners but its a tough road to navigate with that one. Israel has enemies, people that will and have killed Israelis just because they're there. Perhaps through negotiation and diplomacy these guys stand a better chance of gaining their freedom than the kidnap-and-trade move that both arab factions tried last week.
I don't know why you'd be so disbelieving of these numbers except that, if you even accept the possibility that the disproportionate ratios might be vaguely true, it might fuck up your line of argument or at least, force you to revise.
Who has died more in the Iraqi conflict? Insurgents? Or Americans? Insurgents, by FAR. Why? Because the Americans - body armor shortages aside - have superior weapons, training, armor and medical staffs.
Israel is a far more advanced nation than people living in refugee camps: yes, suicide bombing is fucking horrendous but when you're talking about killing *efficiency* AS WELL AS defensive capabilities, Israel clearly has an edge over their counterparts in the West Bank or Gaza whether you're talking about defensive military equipment and tactics that prevents attacks, bomb shelters for families (such as in Haifa) to hide in during missile raids, and far better access to medicine, doctors, surgeons, etc.
Let me be VERY CLEAR here: the lower ratio of dead Israelis is not for lack of trying. If suicide bombers could find a way to kill even more Israelis, I don't doubt they'd be out there trying for it.
But even in defense of itself (an assertation that pro-Palestinians would contest in any case), Israel is far more efficient in killing more Palestinians than the inverse. Whether they intend to be or not doesn't change the data.
What one does with that data is obviously far more subjective. And just to reiterate an earlier point, skepticism about data coming out of the entire conflict (i.e. on both sides) is likely to be practically automatic.
even if it is true I don't think it messes up my argument and if those numbers are proven true I'm sorry for each and every one of those people that had to meet their end in that way. My argument really has very little to do with the amount of people who have been killed. I just don't like it when someone tries to use numbers the way Button did ignoring all the factors that may have went into those killings.
Heres an article from a decidedly Pro-Israeli website that talks on what I'm trying to say:
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Terrorized_By_Numbers.asp
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Israels_Prime_Minister_Speaks.asp
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/...=rssnyt&emc=rss
"The outlines of an American-Israeli consensus began to emerge on Tuesday in which Israel would continue to bombard Lebanon for about another week[/b] to degrade the capabilities of the Hezbollah militia, officials of the two countries said.
American officials signaled that Ms. Rice was waiting at least a few more days before wading into the conflict, in part to give Israel more time to weaken Hezbollah forces.
The strategy carries risk, partly because it remains unclear just how long the rest of the world, particularly America???s Arab allies, will continue to stay silent as the toll on Lebanese civilians rises.
On Tuesday, the seventh day of the face-off, Israeli warplanes battered more targets in Lebanon, killing 30 people, including 11 members of the Lebanese Army, when bombs hit their barracks east of Beirut. Four of the dead were officers, and 30 more soldiers were wounded.
In southern Lebanon, nine members of a single family were killed and four wounded in an Israeli airstrike on their house in the village of Aitaroun, near the Israeli border.
Some 500,000 Lebanese have fled their homes to escape the violence, the United Nations estimated.[/b]
Hezbollah rockets again hit Israel???s port city of Haifa and Nahariya, a coastal town just south of the border, where one man died and several were wounded, one critically. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis continued to spend their time in shelters, and Haifa was largely shut down, with only grocery stores and pharmacies open. More than 130 rockets were fired, Israeli officials said.
Again on Tuesday, cities and towns in southern Lebanon and the densely packed slums at the southern edge of Beirut that are Hezbollah???s stronghold bore the brunt of the barrage. While the Israelis say they have carefully targeted 1,000 sites thus far, the attacks seem to have spread almost randomly across the country.[/b]
In the interview, Mr. Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, said that he favored a release of the two Israeli soldiers. But he coupled that call with other requirements.
Any solution to the crisis, he said, should include Israel???s withdrawal from the disputed Shebaa Farms area of the border, the release of Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails and a return to the terms of the 1949 armistice between the two countries.
He suggested the Lebanese Army would move to southern Lebanon once these conditions were met. He backed the idea of a more robust international force, but only after ???all the issues??? were put on the table, and he stopped short of condemning Hezbollah for inviting the Israeli attacks on the rest of the country."
"I've spent a week trying to write about the new tragedies and travesties in Lebanon and Israel. Under any circumstance, I'd be depressed from the endless cycle of violence, angry with Hezbollah, and especially outraged at the complete over-reaction of the Israeli military, which continues to indiscriminately bomb civilian targets in Lebanon without any clear military objective.
But it's especially difficult for me to hear the news since much of my wife's family is in Lebanon; her grandmother is stuck in Syria, unable to get back home.
Regardless, the latest attacks are an unmitigated disaster of unconscionable proportions from any angle.
Let's be clear: Hezbollah's kidnapping Israeli soldiers and initial attack on one of Israel's military targets were reprehensible.
But Israel's response continues to be wildly disproportionate, violative of international law, and against the interests of its own people, assuming Israel's long-term goal is to ensure lasting peace and security in the region. I'd compare Israel's latest actions to someone with a bad temper seeking vindictive justice, if it weren't for the gravity of the mounting death toll and the fact that Israel has nukes in its holster, which makes the analogy just as incongruous as their counteroffensive.
Olmert is engaged in prolonged indiscriminate punishment, refusing to distinguish between innocent civilians and Hezbollah militants. Contrary to what American newsheads say, he is not engaged in tit-for-tat warfare, most obviously evidenced by the fact that 140 Lebanese civilians have died, compared to 24 Israelis, only 12 of whom are civilians. Many Israelis have taken shelter underground, but almost 100,000 Lebanese people have had to flee and take refuge elsewhere.
At this point, I doubt Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert cares much about the two kidnapped Israeli soldiers that started this war.
I'd like to believe Israel doesn't have plans for a ground campaign and a new occupation, but I am especially skeptical after Israel just rejected Kofi Annan's call for a UN international monitoring force to be deployed in Lebanon.
I don't deny that the Lebanese government bears some responsibility for Hezbollah's actions. But attacking all of Lebanon for Hezbollah's actions is equivalent to attacking all United States citizens for crimes committed by gangs or Mafia located within our border. Or, if you prefer, it's equivalent to attacking all Iraqi citizens for the crimes of Iraqi insurgents.
The bottom line is that when the Israeli military is engaging in a complete aerial, land, and sea blockade of Lebanon -- by bombing the airport, burning bridges (literally and figuratively), and cutting the Lebanese off from food and water -- I can't imagine any other result than further radicalization and growing numbers of extremists on both sides.
This escalating war is especially tragic since Lebanon has been steadily rebuilding its country since the last Israeli occupation and has become the hot poster child for democracy in the Middle East. This 2005 Economist Magazine cover speaks volumes. This progress has practically vanished in a matter of seven days.
Even from the vantage point of the United States, George Bush is clearly worsening this country's security by defending Israel's assaults. His position -- which is that one country has the right to do whatever the hell it wants in order to protect itself from the abstract idea of "terrorism" -- only further confirms our arrogance in the eyes of those who hate us. His focus on 'who started it' is not only sophomoric and embarrassing, it's wrong and an invitation for others to "bring it on."
Just in case I've lost you, I ask you consider the following:
Imagine if the Zapatista Army in Chiapas kidnapped two American border patrol guards and fired rockets into Del Rio, Texas. Would the United States have the right to defend itself against the rebels? Absolutely. Would the US be justified in bombing the Mexico City airport, preventing all Mexicans from traveling, cutting off food distribution to Mexico, and engaging in a bombing campaign that targeted civilian areas not known to be occupied by the Chiapas rebels? Hell to the no. In fact, we'd be in clear violation of international law.
There are obviously other complicated cans of worms I could open that involve Palestine, Iran, Syria, and the United States' war on Iraq, but I'll stop here for now."
--Junichi
www.poplicks.com
Rhetoric / schmetoric.
The "rhetoric" here dear Oliver, is completely justified.
First of all, I do not literally value death more than life and teach my children to become suicide bombers from the time they are old enough to walk.
Do you really want me to run down the list?
I think not.
This is an INhumane sub-culture Oliver.
Read: NOT HUMAN.
Period.
And not only do I make no apologies for saying it, but I find it frankly disturbing that you refuse to recognize it.
Now whether that's because you refuse to see things in absolutes - such good and evil - of which this is clearly the latter - I don't know.
But you just proved whole my point here and that's rather "disturbing".
I also find it interesting that you seem to preface every post/reply with "this is hardly a defensive of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc."
You're starting to make me wonder, what the fuck is it, then?
Exactly why do you feel the need to keep saying that?
Are you concerned that what you say may be misconstrued as sympathy for the devil?
Again, do you even see this whole movement as evil?
Of course I'm not referring to an entire race or people, and I frankly resent that you'd imply I would.
Does one's denouncement / rejection of Nazism or White Supremacy ultimately lead to the ethnic cleansing of whites?
Of course not Oliver. Give me a fucking break.
You on the other hand, seem completely unwilling to even acknowledge this massive sub-culture of death as a threat to modern civilization (or if it's recognized and critisized as such you dismiss it outright as a dangerous pre-cursor to "ethnic cleansing"??!!)
Please.
Again...
Sad, dangerous and
Guzzo,
I'm well aware that this problem is more than a week old. I was merely using the quote from today to show these actions fit into a long running pattern. That pattern is this: Israel kills far more civilians than its adversaries. The numbers Odub posted are the numbers you'll find anywhere, give or take. Even if you have beef with how Palestinian deaths are tallied, it still can't possibly speak for such a large gap. If you have problems with those stats, I believe the burden of proof is on you to find alternates.
I personally can't make any moral distiction between blowing up a cafe, and firing missles into a crowd of civilians to kill one or two terror suspects. Does technology justify killing of innocents in your eyes? Just as the killing of your brothers and sisters enrages you, can't you see how the magnified killing of theirs will do the same? It's funny to me how you can scoff at stats off a pro-palestine website, whille immediately posting essays off of obviously pro-Israeli hubs to make your point.
Which, in a way, does nothing but illustrate what the larger problem in this whole thing really is...
Have you ever been to or met people from the countries that you espouse this cleansing to take place in? I would be sad not to know my homie from Syria. I understand outrage, but to blame a whole culture for the misdeeds or misdirection aof disprapprotionate minority is just sad. I am sorry but the blind hatred that you spew on this board via your anger is scary and sad to me. It puts you on equal footing as the people you espouse to hate.
What, do you think I'd be all upset because Israel didn't slaughter as many Hezbollah as they could?
Sorry to disappoint you, but no.
Let me tell you something, Motown.
A few months ago you might or might not remember the story of an Egyptian ferry that capsized & 100's of passengers (mostly Arab/ African muslims) drowned.
When the news first broke about a ship in distress, Israel very quickly offered assitance since they had ships in the immediate area.
Egypt flatly turned Israel down.
In other words, they would rather let their poeple drown than allow them to be saved by (shudder) Jews.
This only cemented my belief that there is absolutely no hope of peace in the middle east.
At least not in my lifetime.
So, yeah. I expect that in a week or two, there will be some sort of cease fire and that things will probably go back to the way things were, more or less.
That is not to say that Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. should not be eliminated from the face of the earth.
Bottom line: If the world doesn't quickly wake the fuck up and systematically destroy these fuckers, then they will do their very best, from now until the end of days, to destroy us.
That is a fact.
And they've had a good 15 years worth of practice to prepare.
And if I keep having to say, "I'm not defending [fill in blank here]" it's because you seem to presume that anyone even floating out a critique of this shit you kick must be down with terrorists and all for killing Israelis. It's some serious "if you're not down with me, you're against me" mentality. Clearly, I'm not the only one who feels this way but whatever: I'm not trying to change you. Do you.
Guzzy: NYT is biting our minds:
"With Israeli Use of Force, Debate Over Proportion"
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/...&pagewanted=all
I wasn't trying to goad (sp?) you on. You just talk in absolutes all the time, yet the way things actually play out in the world are often not like that. For example, you want Hezbollah to be destroyed yet we both seem to agree that probably won't happen after this encounter and things will return to the status quo. You also often seem to advocate killing people as the solution to the evils of the world, and yet the use of force doesn't always work and sometimes makes things worse. When Israel last invaded Lebanon it ended up creating Hezbollah. More recently, a lot of the leaders of Al Qaeda have been rounded up or killed by the U.S. since 9/11 yet Bin Laden's ideas appear to be more popular than ever right now, and many terrorist attacks like the London and Madrid bombings are made by home grown groups that were never part of any terrorist organization, but were simply inspired by the words of Al Qaeda. Taking on these threats requires more than just blowing shit up. Real situations are lot more complicated than knee jerk reactions to just go fuck up the terrorists after they've attacked. I'm sure Palestinians are still going to be shooting rockets at Israel in the future, but those basicaly cannot be stopped by military means. Just my 2 cents.
Somebody is dropping bombs, and it sure as hell ain't George Clinton!
Please.
To even suggest that I am on "equal footing" with the people I "espouse to hate" tells me that you have absolutely no clue as to what this extremist, wacko sub-culture is all about.
And oh yes, peep the keyword... "SUB-culture".
As in, how many times do I have to explain to you that I am NOT dismissing an entire culture, race or religion of peoples - but rather a HUGE contingent of extremists that still number in the many MILLIONS out of a BILLION + muslims throughout the entire globe?
(need I remind you that a "disprapprotionate minority" of .... oh let's just say, conservatively speaking, ONE BILLION musims.... is still in the tens - if not hundreds - of MILLIONS?)
Are we so fucking P.C. now that the very act of calling out wacko muslims constitutes the ravings of a racist, hate-filled and disturbed man who ultimately seeks the genocide of every muslim on earth?
Icon for tunnel vision?
I believe this is what the Daily Show would refer to as "a moment of zen."
BTW, Paul - in the Egyptian ferry disaster, didn't Egypt also turn down offers of help from the U.S. and Great Britain?
and how, exactly, does that change anything?
Hmm. Well, not for nothing, but when reacting to the sort of "extremist" ideology and ultra-violent world of "extremist" muslims, I think "nuance" is clearly out the fucking door, Oliver. Sorry.
Dealing with such a SUB-culture requires an equally "extreme" reaction in my opinion.
Otherwise, what's the point? You're dead.
I really hope you know this and that you're just fucking with me.
Seriously. "Nuance", dude?
Not at all, Oliver. First time I've brought it up.
My whole issue here is the lack of moral and cultural distinction between extremist muslims and Israel.
As far as I'm concerned, there is simply not enough outrage and denouncement of Hezbollah (other than "I'm not defending them"), their ideology or their actions that brought us here in the first place.
It's not about "you're either with us or you're against us" (nice try), but rather taking a stand and making a very clear distinction between the two entities and what they really stand for.
I just feel that there's not enough of that and too much of an effort being made (sub-consciously or not) to place both parties on equal pedestals in some way, shape or form.
Absolutes? Yes, but I think that's required here.
Hezbollah continues to use Lebanese as human shields. The lives of Lebanese civilians mean nothing to these people.
Isn't that what Oliver just told me?
As I just got done telling Oliver, "absolutes" are required when dealing with absolute maniacs.
This seems to be a key point of contention that many here seem to miss completely.
More on that below.
Please give me more credit than this.
Not to sound redundant (as I feel I'm just repeating myself here over and over again), but my entire issue here is what I perceive to be a general lack of recognition of (yes) the absolute evil inherent in this extremist sub-culture.
I know a lot of heads don't even like to use the word evil, for one, because it does in fact constitute an absloute.
But there it is. This is in fact an evil sub-culture.
There is no moral equivalency between muslim extremists like Hamas or Hezbollah and Israel. None.
And that, I believe, is truly the crux of the debate although it's not being addressed.
i.e. "If you can't sort out the (foreign-supported) terrorists in your country after we've destroyed your army and infrastructure, we'll quite happily kill your civilians with little discrimination".
Todays stats (www.guardian.co.uk) Israeli civilian deaths = 13 Lebanese Civilian deaths = 230[/b]