To get regional with you Rock, when Pancho Villa was raiding Southern Texas and the U.S. finally sent General Pershing after him into Mexico, do they call that the Pancho Villa-U.S. war of 1916? Actually, I take that back, they just might in Texas.
Well as you know, everyone in Texas is an ignorant, tobacco chewing redneck.
The official Texas History Books refer to this event as both the "Run For The Border" or the more Don King-like "Pershing Vs. Pancho: The Villa Thrilla".
Hell...we even have a theme restaurant called Pancho's where if you want more food you have to "Raise The Flag" just like Pershing made Mr. Villa do!!
So the pro-Israel contingent here seems to run the gamut from center-right "Palestinians should respect their rulers" (like Vitamin) all the way to the Final Solution. That's fucking disgusting. And either way, history has proven time and time again that these are all unrealistic solutions. Guzzo should watch his step when quoting leaders talking about "We will triumph"
Spliffy: I think you're jumping some seious sharks here.
1. No one is talking about implementing a final solution and to state that Jewish people would even do so while there are still holocaust survivors alive takes some really big and ugly balls.
2. I posted the prime ministers speech because I thought it the most direct explanation of Israels stance in this war. I didn't place it up as some sort of rhetoric, rather as what I thought would be important reading material to anyone involved in this long and document filled discussion.
I've watched a lot of news today and recieved many e-mails from arabs in Lebanon, some of which I'll post later on. I seriously feel for all non-hezbollah supporting people in Lebanon, they are caught in a very bad place and seemingly it looks like both sides see them as expendable.
I still suport Israel but after reading some of these letters and hearing reports I am starting to questin the methods of removal they are using to get rid of Hezbollah
there should be tangible outcomes associated with our expenditures. especially that much money.
I understand why you would be frustrated by your tax money going to Israel instead of domestic education and social programmes. However, it's innacurate to claim that your country receives no tangible benefit from this support. A substantial portion of the money allocated to Israel returns to the US to help keep your military industry thriving and, more generally, support your economy. Education is certainly a more noble cause than war, but it's nonetheless unfair to claim your country gains nothing from this expenditure.
Those damn dirty jews, always manipulating the truth.
are you doubting the news they wont show you on CNN?
the best part of that website
Lebanon was the last straw. It proves that everything Bin Laden said was true: ???They have come to take your land and your resources; they have come to shame your women and disgrace your culture; they have come to humiliate you in front of your children and heap ignominy on your religion.???
Those damn dirty jews, always manipulating the truth.
Yo, you might want to watch some of it. There's some ill shit in there. It's obviously biased, but they do have IDF, Rabbi's etc discussing the daily situation over there. I'm only 7 minutes deep so I'm hoping they'll talk more about both sides. Either way, some of this is very, very fucked up.
letter I received as part of a group mailing for the middle eastern student society
July 16, 3006
Letter from Lebanon:?? LEBANON IS KIDNAPPED! Dear Family and Friends,
Ha!?? I think I am becoming a reporter now!???? First, we are still safe, but hardly anyone sleeps. The bombing has been continuous, day and night with no reprieve. We are in the mountains and we are awakened by the sound of the explosions.?? And it's not as if you can just fall back asleep after hearing a bomb land. You can imagine what it is like if you are in Beirut. The situation is extremely serious.
I want to reiterate that we need your help in disseminating this information and hopefully getting it to the press.?? The news you are receiving is skewed.?? This is a well orchestrated war that Israel is carrying out.?? This is not a reaction to Hizbullah's apprehending two of its soldiers.?? It becomes clearer by the day that there is a master plan that Israel is executing. Israel has literally kidnapped the entire country.?? One by one they are destroying every single road that leads out of the country.?? Just this evening around 8:00 p.m. we heard Israeli planes flying overhead only to hear a few minutes later on the radio that they destroyed a mountain road that leads to the Bekaa valley.?? This road is further up the mountain from where we live, in a primarily Christian village.
On the news earlier we heard that of the 93 Lebanese killed, only 3 were soldiers. As of 8:30 p.m. more than 120 Lebanese are dead and over 500 wounded.
Yesterday they bombed a small port in Amchit, a Christian village about one hour north of Beirut.?? Why??? The Israelis got wind that a French ship carrying medical supplies was arriving. Damaging the port they prevented these critical medical supplies from reaching their destination.
Yesterday, my niece was attending a wedding-poor couple-could they really delay their wedding after months of planning? The wedding was held not too far from Jounieh, a major port about 25 minutes north of Beirut, a Christian town (and definitely not a Hizbullah stronghold). Everyone was on the terrace celebrating when Israel repeatedly attacked the Jounieh port. My niece said that everyone ran into the church and prayed. The bride was crying. The groom was crying.?? My niece left the wedding flying down the main highway while bombs whistled by.?? Nice memories for the newlyweds.
This afternoon, the Israelis decimated a small Christian village, Ain Ebel in the south of Lebanon.?? The mayor was pleading with the UN for a cessation of the Israeli bombing so they could evacuate women and children, and eventually to get food and medical supplies. Again, Ain Ebel is far from being a Hizbullah basis. In the southern suburb of Beirut, Israelis knocked out all telecommunications-both land and mobile.
They just struck the airport again, as I have been writing this. This must be the sixth or seventh time, I lost count!
Over 1 million Lebanese, that's nearly one third of the entire population has been displaced!?? Hotels, homes in the mountains are packed to the brim trying to accommodate these people made refugees in their own country.
Are you still convinced that Israel is attacking only Hizbullah targets???
Are you still convinced that Israel has a right to defend itself-and if so, in this way?
Even during the 15 years of war, never ever were all roads, ports, and airports simultaneously blocked.?? When I was in Saudi, we would fly to Cyprus then take the boat to Jounieh to visit my husband's family. Now there is no way out. Israel has kidnapped and trapped the entire country.??There are more than 17, 000 French citizens, more than 10, 000 English, more than 25, 000 Americans and many more other foreign nationals trapped because Israel has blown up all major roads, bridges, airports and ports.
Their actions are barbaric.?? The British Ambassador made a public announcement on television telling his compatriots that the roads are not safe enough to travel on for an evacuation and urged them to just remain at home. How reassuring!?? You hear news of evacuations, but we are all wondering how anyone can get out when roads, bridges and ports have been damaged so severely.
10:10 p.m. The bombs are exploding. Another sleepless night ahead..
Arbour's claims are a little suspect. She holds that Israel's actions may violate international law based, it seems, entirely on her sense of what's happening, i.e. her belief, most likely formed on the same info to which we have access, that there is "indiscriminate shelling of cities". That she thinks the bombing is indescriminate doesn't mean it is. With information surfacing of rockets and arms being stored in a mosque, it's certainly possible that Israel perceives all its targets having a military purpose. In any event, the issue at present is academic because, one, few parties, if any, have enough evidence to form a meaningful opinion of potential criminal liability and two, it's unlikely that Israel could be prosecuted under the protocols that Arbour refers to since it's not party to them.
I heard well known lawyer Alan Dershowitz today on the radio throw out two pretty wild opinions.....
First was that he supported the use of torture in the war on terrorism. He said "No one will like my method of torture, it will be too soft for the Right and too harsh for the Left. But I do think it's necessary"
Then he compared Hezbollah to a criminal in the U.S. who uses a child as a human shield. He claimed that if the police killed a child who was being used as a human shield that criminal would be charged with murder.(?) And that Hezbollah was using the Lebanese people as human shields and are responsible and should be held accountable for any Lebanese citizens death.
Interesting viewpoint from a champion/member of the ACLU.
I have peoples in Lebanon right now, I'd say "indiscriminate" is the wrong word. Israel is hitting many civilian targets.
While I agree with you that Israel probably will not face these charges, this is not just an "academic" issue. around 100 children killed, according to the UN. that's not just an academic issue.
I have peoples in Lebanon right now, I'd say "indiscriminate" is the wrong word. Israel is hitting many civilian targets.
While I agree with you that Israel probably will not face these charges, this is not just an "academic" issue. around 100 children killed, according to the UN. that's not just an academic issue.
Don't misunderstand: my heart goes out to those innocent civilians killed by Israeli bombings and their families. It is a tragedy.
What I meant by "academic" is that it's a moot point to discuss Israel's criminal liability under laws to which it's not subject.
While it doesn't diminish the tragedy of murdered innocents, I sincerely doubt that Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian targets. Their rational may be dubious, but I believe there is a rational.
I have peoples in Lebanon right now, I'd say "indiscriminate" is the wrong word. Israel is hitting many civilian targets.
While I agree with you that Israel probably will not face these charges, this is not just an "academic" issue. around 100 children killed, according to the UN. that's not just an academic issue.
Don't misunderstand: my heart goes out to those innocent civilians killed by Israeli bombings and their families. It is a tragedy.
What I meant by "academic" is that it's a moot point to discuss Israel's criminal liability under laws to which it's not subject.
While it doesn't diminish the tragedy of murdered innocents, I sincerely doubt that Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian targets. Their rational may be dubious, but I believe there is a rational.
Let us not mince any words. Israel has turned a Hezbollah neighborhood outside of Beirut into dust, according to the editor of the Daily Star. Israel's bombs have hit water trucks, ports of entry, roads, hospitals. They have demolished villages in the south. They are raining apoclyptic terror on Lebanon that has driven half a million people to seek shelter in Syria of all places.
This is the logic of war. The objective to dismantle, damage or dent Hezbollah as an organization is secondary to sanctioning a nation for the actions of a band of terrorists intent on destroying it. It so happens that this murderous gang has waged its war from a country with a diverse population, most of whom fear hezbollah as much as the Israelis do. These bombs are meant as demonstration. This is what happens to ALL OF YOU if this militia launches another missile, funds another suicide bomber, plans another raid, blows up another embassy. No more.
I resent the fictions on both sides. When the right says Israel must finish the job. What job? The implausible wish of destroying hezbollah from the air? Or the job of punishing the Lebanese. When the left says nothing about Hezbollah's deliberate use of human shields, by placing the missiles bound for Haifa in apartment buildings, or transporting explosives in ambulances. What side has committed war crimes? War is a crime. It is a criminal and murderous state of affairs.
But the sheer number of projectile explosives dropped on Lebanon, and it is wildly disproportionate (as the logic of war dictates), suggest Israel is gambling that they will terrify what remains of the country to end Hezbollah's aggression. Perhaps they may even terrify Hezbollah. But their demand, to end this death cult's war making on its border, is not only reasonable, but entirely permissable in international law as a clear case of Israeli self defense.
But here is the thing. It's also cruel. Lebanon would be spared if Israel bombed five military targets in Iran and Syria. This would have spared more lives, sent a stronger message to the source and also violated international law. In this case the clearer violation of international law would be the most moral option.
Whoa. That is certainly , but all Anan has done was call for a cease fire as far as I know.
Regardless, I don't know how some of you can say this is a righteous, legitmate thing (not to mention celebrating people dying - Haz I'm looking at you). I understand wanting to kill those dudes, but the way they're going about it to send a message at the expense of human life bothers me. Defend all you like, war is fucked any way it goes.
I understand wanting to kill those dudes, but the way they're going about it to send a message at the expense of human life bothers me.
I think the problem here is people have a utopian idea of war in which only bad guys and soldiers get shot and killed, truth is war is messy and war in residential areas will unfortunately lead to death and destruction.
Defend all you like, war is fucked any way it goes.
I understand wanting to kill those dudes, but the way they're going about it to send a message at the expense of human life bothers me.
I think the problem here is people have a utopian idea of war in which only bad guys and soldiers get shot and killed, truth is war is messy and war in residential areas will unfortunately lead to death and destruction.
No, I understand war is brutal and innocent people get killed, however, I'm not really understanding this whole thing. I know some folks want to say there's a method to the madness, but the only thing I see is terror.
If you want to kill Hezbollah, go in there and kill them. Don't demolish the entire country and the people to do so. Those fucking guys are still alive and well and giving interviews for God's sake! Figure that shit out already.
Well, the real bloodshed is about to begin. Israel warned the inhabitants of the southern Lebanese border that they better get out of town. Already, Israel has sent in some probing troops. Supposedly a group of Israeli commandos actually got ambushed and served up pretty badly by Hezbollah already. They also took out an Israeli tank. If true, then all this bombing is the shock and awe phase and Israel is getting ready to send in soldiers to clear out the border area and push back Hezbollah so that their missiles wont be able to reach Israel proper. Of course, if other press reports are to be believed, Hezbollah hasn't even brought out its big guns, i.e. brand new missiles that can reach much farther into Israel than the Katushas that they're firing now.
And I think Vitamin is right, Israel is trying to punish the entire country of Lebanon to make it crack down on Hezbollah. Besides the Lebanese army base that gone blown up, I've also heard they bombed a couple Christian neighborhoods as well in Beirut and nothern Lebanon that have nothing whatsoever to do with Hezbollah. Whether this gamble actually works I have no idea.
Suddenly today, cable news said that Israel has already been able to take out 50% of Hezbollah's forces and arsenal. Yesterday they said 20%. How they come up with these numbers seems to be a complete mystery to me. Things are going to get worse in the coming days probably, before they go back to normal.
one of the more interesting things I heard on NPR was a discussion of how both sides are still being careful about holding back...that if Israel wanted, they would flatten all of Lebanon in half a day and likewise, Hezbollah could be raining missiles all over Tel Aviv too.
If this current conflict is a war of restraint, I hate to see what non-restraint would look like.
By the way Joel, at this point, I think we can call this a legitimate "war", no?
one of the more interesting things I heard on NPR was a discussion of how both sides are still being careful about holding back...that if Israel wanted, they would flatten all of Lebanon in half a day and likewise, Hezbollah could be raining missiles all over Tel Aviv too.
If this current conflict is a war of restraint, I hate to see what non-restraint would look like.
By the way Joel, at this point, I think we can call this a legitimate "war", no?
Still hesitant to call it a war. If Israel goes into the South which I expeced all along, then pulls out with a negotiated settlement, it will probalby go down in the books as what is euphamistically called an "incursion." If Israel goes all the way to Beirut, then I'll be more willing to call it a war.
And hey! I made your first comment yesterday already! You're behind the times.
Out of curiosity, does anyone think this will escalate and involve other countries?
Right now, probably not. I think the initiative is with the Israelis and Hezbollah is just sitting back, probably in bunkers, waiting to see what happens. I can't see Syria or Iran stepping in as of now. Israel would have to instigate that.
Out of curiosity, does anyone think this will escalate and involve other countries?
Right now, probably not. I think the initiative is with the Israelis and Hezbollah is just sitting back, probably in bunkers, waiting to see what happens. I can't see Syria or Iran stepping in as of now. Israel would have to instigate that.
Would you say this situation has been just as much a display of power as the reason they bombed Lebanon in the first place? The more I take in, the more I'm seeing this as a message to other countries/factions who are anti-Israel. Ie. "Don't fuck with us."
Comments
Well as you know, everyone in Texas is an ignorant, tobacco chewing redneck.
The official Texas History Books refer to this event as both the "Run For The Border" or the more Don King-like "Pershing Vs. Pancho: The Villa Thrilla".
Hell...we even have a theme restaurant called Pancho's where if you want more food you have to "Raise The Flag" just like Pershing made Mr. Villa do!!
(Amazingly, that last part is kinda true!)
I wish the UN would just step in and slap both sides around a bit.
That said, seeing this on the news right now tells me this ain't going to quiet down anytime soon.
So much beauty in the world and then there's all of this.
Ying & Yang I suppose...
Spliffy: I think you're jumping some seious sharks here.
1. No one is talking about implementing a final solution and to state that Jewish people would even do so while there are still holocaust survivors alive takes some really big and ugly balls.
2. I posted the prime ministers speech because I thought it the most direct explanation of Israels stance in this war. I didn't place it up as some sort of rhetoric, rather as what I thought would be important reading material to anyone involved in this long and document filled discussion.
I've watched a lot of news today and recieved many e-mails from arabs in Lebanon, some of which I'll post later on. I seriously feel for all non-hezbollah supporting people in Lebanon, they are caught in a very bad place and seemingly it looks like both sides see them as expendable.
I still suport Israel but after reading some of these letters and hearing reports I am starting to questin the methods of removal they are using to get rid of Hezbollah
I understand why you would be frustrated by your tax money going to Israel instead of domestic education and social programmes. However, it's innacurate to claim that your country receives no tangible benefit from this support. A substantial portion of the money allocated to Israel returns to the US to help keep your military industry thriving and, more generally, support your economy. Education is certainly a more noble cause than war, but it's nonetheless unfair to claim your country gains nothing from this expenditure.
Those damn dirty jews, always manipulating the truth.
are you doubting the news they wont show you on CNN?
the best part of that website
Yo, you might want to watch some of it. There's some ill shit in there. It's obviously biased, but they do have IDF, Rabbi's etc discussing the daily situation over there. I'm only 7 minutes deep so I'm hoping they'll talk more about both sides. Either way, some of this is very, very fucked up.
Fresh Air: http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13
Talk of the Nation: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5568093
IMG SRC="http://www.arzaworld.com/news/archive/phil collins.jpg" width=700>
(picture size reduced)
yeah, his presence in the Land will definitely be seen as a sign of weakness by the enemy!
whatup though didn't dood make some anti-Semitic utterances once?
(picture size reduced)
The UN High Comissioner is saying Israel may have committed war crimes. Peep.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5198342.stm
Arbour's claims are a little suspect. She holds that Israel's actions may violate international law based, it seems, entirely on her sense of what's happening, i.e. her belief, most likely formed on the same info to which we have access, that there is "indiscriminate shelling of cities". That she thinks the bombing is indescriminate doesn't mean it is. With information surfacing of rockets and arms being stored in a mosque, it's certainly possible that Israel perceives all its targets having a military purpose. In any event, the issue at present is academic because, one, few parties, if any, have enough evidence to form a meaningful opinion of potential criminal liability and two, it's unlikely that Israel could be prosecuted under the protocols that Arbour refers to since it's not party to them.
First was that he supported the use of torture in the war on terrorism. He said "No one will like my method of torture, it will be too soft for the Right and too harsh for the Left. But I do think it's necessary"
Then he compared Hezbollah to a criminal in the U.S. who uses a child as a human shield. He claimed that if the police killed a child who was being used as a human shield that criminal would be charged with murder.(?) And that Hezbollah was using the Lebanese people as human shields and are responsible and should be held accountable for any Lebanese citizens death.
Interesting viewpoint from a champion/member of the ACLU.
While I agree with you that Israel probably will not face these charges, this is not just an "academic" issue. around 100 children killed, according to the UN. that's not just an academic issue.
is that rjd2???
Don't misunderstand: my heart goes out to those innocent civilians killed by Israeli bombings and their families. It is a tragedy.
What I meant by "academic" is that it's a moot point to discuss Israel's criminal liability under laws to which it's not subject.
While it doesn't diminish the tragedy of murdered innocents, I sincerely doubt that Israel is indiscriminately bombing civilian targets. Their rational may be dubious, but I believe there is a rational.
Let us not mince any words. Israel has turned a Hezbollah neighborhood outside of Beirut into dust, according to the editor of the Daily Star. Israel's bombs have hit water trucks, ports of entry, roads, hospitals. They have demolished villages in the south. They are raining apoclyptic terror on Lebanon that has driven half a million people to seek shelter in Syria of all places.
This is the logic of war. The objective to dismantle, damage or dent Hezbollah as an organization is secondary to sanctioning a nation for the actions of a band of terrorists intent on destroying it. It so happens that this murderous gang has waged its war from a country with a diverse population, most of whom fear hezbollah as much as the Israelis do. These bombs are meant as demonstration. This is what happens to ALL OF YOU if this militia launches another missile, funds another suicide bomber, plans another raid, blows up another embassy. No more.
I resent the fictions on both sides. When the right says Israel must finish the job. What job? The implausible wish of destroying hezbollah from the air? Or the job of punishing the Lebanese. When the left says nothing about Hezbollah's deliberate use of human shields, by placing the missiles bound for Haifa in apartment buildings, or transporting explosives in ambulances. What side has committed war crimes? War is a crime. It is a criminal and murderous state of affairs.
But the sheer number of projectile explosives dropped on Lebanon, and it is wildly disproportionate (as the logic of war dictates), suggest Israel is gambling that they will terrify what remains of the country to end Hezbollah's aggression. Perhaps they may even terrify Hezbollah. But their demand, to end this death cult's war making on its border, is not only reasonable, but entirely permissable in international law as a clear case of Israeli self defense.
But here is the thing. It's also cruel. Lebanon would be spared if Israel bombed five military targets in Iran and Syria. This would have spared more lives, sent a stronger message to the source and also violated international law. In this case the clearer violation of international law would be the most moral option.
Whoa. That is certainly
Regardless, I don't know how some of you can say this is a righteous, legitmate thing (not to mention celebrating people dying - Haz I'm looking at you). I understand wanting to kill those dudes, but the way they're going about it to send a message at the expense of human life bothers me. Defend all you like, war is fucked any way it goes.
I think the problem here is people have a utopian idea of war in which only bad guys and soldiers get shot and killed, truth is war is messy and war in residential areas will unfortunately lead to death and destruction.
No, I understand war is brutal and innocent people get killed, however, I'm not really understanding this whole thing. I know some folks want to say there's a method to the madness, but the only thing I see is terror.
If you want to kill Hezbollah, go in there and kill them. Don't demolish the entire country and the people to do so. Those fucking guys are still alive and well and giving interviews for God's sake! Figure that shit out already.
And I think Vitamin is right, Israel is trying to punish the entire country of Lebanon to make it crack down on Hezbollah. Besides the Lebanese army base that gone blown up, I've also heard they bombed a couple Christian neighborhoods as well in Beirut and nothern Lebanon that have nothing whatsoever to do with Hezbollah. Whether this gamble actually works I have no idea.
Suddenly today, cable news said that Israel has already been able to take out 50% of Hezbollah's forces and arsenal. Yesterday they said 20%. How they come up with these numbers seems to be a complete mystery to me. Things are going to get worse in the coming days probably, before they go back to normal.
If this current conflict is a war of restraint, I hate to see what non-restraint would look like.
By the way Joel, at this point, I think we can call this a legitimate "war", no?
Still hesitant to call it a war. If Israel goes into the South which I expeced all along, then pulls out with a negotiated settlement, it will probalby go down in the books as what is euphamistically called an "incursion." If Israel goes all the way to Beirut, then I'll be more willing to call it a war.
And hey! I made your first comment yesterday already! You're behind the times.
I'm interested in what Motown, Vitamin, ODub etc. have to say about this.
Right now, probably not. I think the initiative is with the Israelis and Hezbollah is just sitting back, probably in bunkers, waiting to see what happens. I can't see Syria or Iran stepping in as of now. Israel would have to instigate that.
Would you say this situation has been just as much a display of power as the reason they bombed Lebanon in the first place? The more I take in, the more I'm seeing this as a message to other countries/factions who are anti-Israel. Ie. "Don't fuck with us."