The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I buy Guzzo's point. I don't think that gentiles see it that way because even if its true, why should they care? They aren't targeted for death. They will speculate, have meetings and pass resolutions while Jewish people die. The world hasn't cared about us for thousands of years. Why should they start now? If there's any sense of urgency from world nations to resolve this current situation, its because there are fewer Jews dying in this conflict than Non-Jews. This is a situation that gentiles are uneasy with because in their eyes Jewsih people are born to die in horrible ways. The opposite is not supposed to be true.
sad but true. for further proof check into the majority political party, Hamas refusal to recognize Israel (AKA the Jewish state) and their sponsoring of suicide bombings within Israels borders.
Hezbollah is really no different, you can gain some info on it right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Position_on_Israel . Jews have been subject to Inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts and various other forms of destruction and anti-semitism for centuries and to this day it continues. So, even if you don't want to believe it, There are many-a-powerful political group seeking the destruction of Israel and its Jewish people.
I think you're wasting to your breath, Guzzo. The positions of these groups are common knowledge, but they're of no interest to anyone who isn't Jewish. You're supposed to submit, shut up and die.
The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I buy Guzzo's point. I don't think that gentiles see it that way because even if its true, why should they care? They aren't targeted for death. They will speculate, have meetings and pass resolutions while Jewish people die. The world hasn't cared about us for thousands of years. Why should they start now? If there's any sense of urgency from world nations to resolve this current situation, its because there are fewer Jews dying in this conflict than Non-Jews. This is a situation that gentiles are uneasy with because in their eyes Jewsih people are born to die in horrible ways. The opposite is not supposed to be true.
sad but true. for further proof check into the majority political party, Hamas refusal to recognize Israel (AKA the Jewish state) and their sponsoring of suicide bombings within Israels borders.
Hezbollah is really no different, you can gain some info on it right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Position_on_Israel . Jews have been subject to Inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts and various other forms of destruction and anti-semitism for centuries and to this day it continues. So, even if you don't want to believe it, There are many-a-powerful political group seeking the destruction of Israel and its Jewish people.
I think you're wasting to your breath, Guzzo. The positions of these groups are common knowledge, but they're of no interest to anyone who isn't Jewish. You're supposed to submit, shut up and die.
sorry I forgot. I'll go back to watching Screech on The View
As a sidenote, there's an intereting piece about Israeli hip hop in the new issue of Swindle-- and no, I haven't based my entire political outlook on that . . .i can hear that quip right now. Anyway, they interview a dude born in Israel, his parents are Black Americans from a popular Black Jewish Sect who immigrated there in the 70s, I believe. The Israeli state doesn't recognize their Judaism and so his family has been threatened with deportation. This is not inconsistant at all with Israeli immigration policy. Conversely, a person can be of European descent, have been raised culturally Jewish but be an atheist and never face such scares. This is common and it suggests that race plays no small part in Israeli social agency.
Yeah, I hear you, but I think this has more to do with how they define Judaism than race. My guess is that someone who can prove their mother was Jewish, say a mixed race American would not have a problem. You may have a problem with their narrow definition of Judaism, but my suspicion is your really just grasping at straws trying to paint Israel as racist. I doubt fundamentalist Muslim countries in the region are as welcoming to sects they disagree with, and I don't see any difference between this and say German or Swiss laws which grant rights to people who can prove their ancestry. Whether you think all the above examples are fucked up is another question, but I dont think Israel is the most egregious offender here, and I think to highlight them shows your biases. Also, while this is debatable
Palestinian lives are commonly treated by the Israeli gov't as being worth dirt.
This is not
Israeli lives are commonly treated by the Palestinians as being worth dirt.
I think you'd find few on this board (paul excluded) who would, if they had a say, wipe Lebanon or Muslims off the face of the earth, which is pretty much what you've said you'd have done to Israel. In the end, Israel's stated goal is to simply exist, while certain Palestinians like Hamas, as well as groups like Hezbollah, etc seek to destroy Israel and wish death on its inhabitants. Keep turning the blind eye my friend, and I'll keep waiting for you to ever follow up on anything.
I think you'd find few on this board (paul excluded) who would, if they had a say, wipe Lebanon or Muslims off the face of the earth
I'm gonna take a guess and assume that your little shit-eating grin next to my name was some indication of a joke on your end. Otherwise, please to show where I ever expressed a desire to wipe "Lebanon" or "Muslims" from the face of the earth.
The people of the reigon do not want to live peacefully they want the destruction of Jewish people.
Sorry but I just don't buy it. Everyone has their price and one day we will see that price. Until then I'm gonna have to get used to looking at Anderson Cooper in a flack jacket.
I buy Guzzo's point. I don't think that gentiles see it that way because even if its true, why should they care? They aren't targeted for death. They will speculate, have meetings and pass resolutions while Jewish people die. The world hasn't cared about us for thousands of years. Why should they start now? If there's any sense of urgency from world nations to resolve this current situation, its because there are fewer Jews dying in this conflict than Non-Jews. This is a situation that gentiles are uneasy with because in their eyes Jewsih people are born to die in horrible ways. The opposite is not supposed to be true.
sad but true. for further proof check into the majority political party, Hamas refusal to recognize Israel (AKA the Jewish state) and their sponsoring of suicide bombings within Israels borders.
Hezbollah is really no different, you can gain some info on it right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Position_on_Israel . Jews have been subject to Inquisitions, pogroms, holocausts and various other forms of destruction and anti-semitism for centuries and to this day it continues. So, even if you don't want to believe it, There are many-a-powerful political group seeking the destruction of Israel and its Jewish people.
I think you're wasting to your breath, Guzzo. The positions of these groups are common knowledge, but they're of no interest to anyone who isn't Jewish. You're supposed to submit, shut up and die.
Been busy for a minute so I am just getting back to this thread now.
Haz, I find your accusation that gentiles want/believe that Jews should die horrible deaths is simply absurd. It ignores most of the history of the west's approach to Jews since the holocaust and reveals you to be both paranoid and dishonest. Which is sad because you clearly love your people. You do everyone a great diservice with your hyperbole and knee-jerk defense of all things Israeli. Your monomania blinds you even to the reasoned arguments presetned here on SS. Look closely at my statement and you will see that I place most of the onus on the Arabs for the current stalemate between Palestinians and Israelis.
As the grandchild of holocaust survivor, a Jew and someone with a brain, I understand that your twisted generalizations about gentiles and jew haters however do not apply to me.
Guzzo, I appreciate your stance that this may never be solved because people don't want it solved. To our eyes the parties positions seem intractable but the reality is that all positions are relative and will eventually change. I believe one day this will get solved and the result will look much like what was on the table in 1993. Sad but true.
Paul despite past disagreements, i generally agree with you about israel, just saying you take a harder line than most, thought that was pretty much accepted wisdom around here. so yes dude, the smiley face was indeed indicating humor.
Got some folls breathing down my neck (no homo) trying to use this computer terminal. So I haven??t had a chance to read the latest posts too carefully.
Just wanna reiterate big ups to Guzzo, Haz, Unheard, Paul and the rest for bringing the sanity.
Just got in last night. Bout to walk around the beautiful city that is BA.
A propos, Argentina is a country to which the Jews have contributed immeasurably. Yet when push came to shove HEZBOLLAH was able to blow up their community center with impunity. The Argentine authorities were heavily implicated in the carrying out of the attack and the cover-up. So yeah, am yisrael chai is just about all I have to say I guess. Those who like to sit around cafes wearing their fashion kaffiyehs and discussing academically the dismantlement of the Jewish state need to check themselves. That is all.
This ends up being a go nowhere argument because I keep saying that the only people in Israel with full social agency are white, in turn the people who respond to me either ignore, sidestep, or distort what I've written and then reemphasize the futility of digging up past events. The most delusional of responders insist something logically equivalent to "No Jew is white," all the while indicting my race analyisis as childish. I'm not suggesting that this is going to be your approach, but given the otherwise unchallenged trend on this board, please understand my apprehension.
You say "The next time the goosesteppers come for me, I'll have somewhere to go." But doesn't it bother you that Israel is beholden precisley to those goosesteppers? Much of Israel's strongest political support comes in this country from Christian fundamentalists who have expressed rabid anti-Semitism in the past. Their support for Israel is because it is a necessary part of their absurd End Times philosophies. The non-religious support comes because Israel is a crucial Western foothold in the Middle East.
You continue . . .
"To me, it's a simple pragmatism--or realpolitik, if you prefer--that trumps any post-colonial, anti-imperialist screed: Israel means I have a measure of security that my people haven't had for much of recorded history"
Which gets to the heart of the matter. That measure of security, which I'd argue is also illusory, comes at the expense of people who lived on a land before they were displaced. It wasn't the Arab world that has engaged a protracted cultural resentment of Jews, relegating Jews to financial positions only to accuse them of being a userous group of people, advocating the extermination of Jews en masse, etc. Historically, that has been a uniquely European phenomenon. (And no, I'm not suggesting this is somehow biologically innate to Europeans.) Now, you accept the people who advanced these schools of thought as your defenders.
As far as the comment about "resort for white people" go, I'd make the same claim about a lot of Western (or Western-oriented, as the case may be) countries. I've said the same thing about Apartheid South Africa. It doesn't mean that the people living in these countries are automatons or don't go about their lives in many of the same ways that others "outside the walls" do.
And for people who argue that this is irrelevant to the current discussion-- Israel hasn't changed its game up in the 9th Inning. The question "Is Irael going too far?" seems to assume that if was ever engaged legitmiately in the region.
I cannot dismiss your argument about social inequality as easily as some. However, it doesn't seem to me that the presence of inequality necessarily delegitimises the state where it exists. Assuming you're correct in the charge that only whites enjoy full social agency in Israel, I venture that the solution is not to abolish the country, but to work towards greater equality. No doubt the same charge could be levied against any number of states, not the least of which is America. I suspect you don't preach its dissolution.
The thrust of you other points appears to be that I ought to be troubled that Israel doesn't exist in a perfect world. That is, some of its allies in the States are fundamentalist Christians who only care for Jews and Israel insofar as the two will fall away and pave the way for the Rapture when the Apacolypse is nigh (but to call them "goosesteppers" is nonetheless unfair); its Europeans allies are the same people who have happily killed and displaced Jews for millennia; it only affords Jews what you think is an illusory security; and its creation had a profound negative impact on some Arabs. Yes, these issues are all troubling, but we don't live in a perfect world. Strange bedfellows are better than going it alone and whatever security Israel provides is profoundly appreciated.
Ultimately, the crux of your position is that Israel has never been legitimately engaged in the region. I respond that I simply don't care whether it is or isn't. Israel exists where Israel exists, for better or worse, and its continued existence matters more to me than most anything else. You clearly have a well calibrated sense of social justice, but I???m not keen on testing its boundaries when the West decides again that one is too many. Thanks to Israel, I don???t have to.
As a sidenote, there's an intereting piece about Israeli hip hop in the new issue of Swindle-- and no, I haven't based my entire political outlook on that . . .i can hear that quip right now. Anyway, they interview a dude born in Israel, his parents are Black Americans from a popular Black Jewish Sect who immigrated there in the 70s, I believe. The Israeli state doesn't recognize their Judaism and so his family has been threatened with deportation. This is not inconsistant at all with Israeli immigration policy. Conversely, a person can be of European descent, have been raised culturally Jewish but be an atheist and never face such scares. This is common and it suggests that race plays no small part in Israeli social agency. Again, this doesn't even touch the fact that Palestinian lives are commonly treated by the Israeli gov't as being worth dirt.
Maybe you'll find these anecdotes less problematic if you consider them in the context of the immigration and citizenship systems implemented by every country. In Germany, you only qualify as a refugee if you meet certain criteria and there is another set of criteria to qualify as a citizen. Despite being born in Germany, my father was deemed insufficiently German to be granted citizenship. These systems impose controls on borders so that countries aren't inundated with immigrants. Most people think this is reasonable enough and necessary for sovereignty.
In Israel, a fundamental policy is that the country is always open to Jews. This exists for obvious reasons. In many respects Israel is a pretty decent place to live. People want to immigrate. Hence the issue of distinguishing between "legitimate" Jews and Jews of convenience. I'm not suggesting the people mentioned above are not Jews--I don't know anything about that story--but it's too easy to dismiss the story as an example of racism. Racism may well be a force in Israeli society, but immigration policies are more complex than you concede.
As a sidenote, there's an intereting piece about Israeli hip hop in the new issue of Swindle-- and no, I haven't based my entire political outlook on that . . .i can hear that quip right now. Anyway, they interview a dude born in Israel, his parents are Black Americans from a popular Black Jewish Sect who immigrated there in the 70s, I believe. The Israeli state doesn't recognize their Judaism and so his family has been threatened with deportation. This is not inconsistant at all with Israeli immigration policy. Conversely, a person can be of European descent, have been raised culturally Jewish but be an atheist and never face such scares. This is common and it suggests that race plays no small part in Israeli social agency. Again, this doesn't even touch the fact that Palestinian lives are commonly treated by the Israeli gov't as being worth dirt.
Maybe you'll find these anecdotes less problematic if you consider them in the context of the immigration and citizenship systems implemented by every country. In Germany, you only qualify as a refugee if you meet certain criteria and there is another set of criteria to qualify as a citizen. Despite being born in Germany, my father was deemed insufficiently German to be granted citizenship. These systems impose controls on borders so that countries aren't inundated with immigrants. Most people think this is reasonable enough and necessary for sovereignty.
In Israel, a fundamental policy is that the country is always open to Jews. This exists for obvious reasons. In many respects Israel is a pretty decent place to live. People want to immigrate. Hence the issue of distinguishing between "legitimate" Jews and Jews of convenience. I'm not suggesting the people mentioned above are not Jews--I don't know anything about that story--but it's too easy to dismiss the story as an example of racism. Racism may well be a force in Israeli society, but immigration policies are more complex than you concede.
Your points about Germany don't fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes as the case may be, and actually, among the articles/writings about Israeli immigration policy I'd planned to link already is a particularly interesting comparitive/contrasting analysis of Israeli and German right of return. Fourth link.
And lastly, I gotta say, my man "Ultimately, the crux of your position is that Israel has never been legitimately engaged in the region. I respond that I simply don't care whether it is or isn't."
This is exactly what I'm getting at. People try to give this argument a window-dressing or veneer to distract from the fact that it is logically tantamount to saying "I don't care if Israel was established on the backs of people not culturally responsible for the persecution of Jews en masse." At the very least you denude this statement, but it's very unsettling to me that you don't recognize that attitude as itself Naziesque.
I cannot dismiss your argument about social inequality as easily as some. However, it doesn't seem to me that the presence of inequality necessarily delegitimises the state where it exists. Assuming you're correct in the charge that only whites enjoy full social agency in Israel, I venture that the solution is not to abolish the country, but to work towards greater equality. No doubt the same charge could be levied against any number of states, not the least of which is America. I suspect you don't preach its dissolution.
I understand what you're saying about not throwing the baby out with the bath water and how the presence of injustice within a country doesn't necessarily present a defeater to its claims of legitimacy. The thing is, the only rational way to approach this dilemma is to view it in terms of salience. The Jewish Right of Return, which is a cornerstone of Israeli immigration policy is critically linked with the nation's sovereignty. The things are inextricable.
And as far as suggesting the dissolution of the Americas, you're right on one count: I don't preach their dissolution. But not on grounds that I believe The Americas' colonialisms are of morally superior species than Israel's, but on pragmatic grounds and because the dilemma of the occupied Americas differs in some significant ways than that of occupied Palestine. First, you have the issue of time, which has made far more diffuse the cultural and geographic makeup of various peoples over the course of the Americas' history than Israel's. Also, there's the whole issue of captive nations of people. Particularly Africans. I've already expressed that I don't support endeavors such as Liberia. Repatriation for many many reasons is not an option.
In contrast, with Israel, we're not talking centuries-- We're talking 60 years. In that regard, Palestinian Right of Return could be recognized (as well as the call to make the former Israel a secular democracy with standard immigration policy). Victims of the Holocaust and their respective families would be owed further reparation and land subsidies/grants by European nations. I also want to make clear, again, that what I support here is autonomy. That knows no race, ethnicity, etc. I'd be railing just as hard against Palestinian mistreatment of Bedouin as I do Israeli misstreatment of Palestinians.
The thrust of you other points appears to be that I ought to be troubled that Israel doesn't exist in a perfect world. That is, some of its allies in the States are fundamentalist Christians who only care for Jews and Israel insofar as the two will fall away and pave the way for the Rapture when the Apacolypse is nigh (but to call them "goosesteppers" is nonetheless unfair);
No, not just some. Particularly during this administration, most of Israel's non-Jewish political support comes from rabidly conservative Christians. And I don't see how the characterization of them as goosesteppers is unfair-- especially given that you're invoking the looming threat of those goosesteppers. Precisely what idealogues do you think will compose the next Gestapo, or at least the next set of "good Germans?" Many of these people were up until recently making anti-Semitic pronouncements, several have entrenched familial links to Naziism (while not alone damning, the support certainly is), etc.
its Europeans allies are the same people who have happily killed and displaced Jews for millennia; it only affords Jews what you think is an illusory security; and its creation had a profound negative impact on some Arabs. Yes, these issues are all troubling, but we don't live in a perfect world. Strange bedfellows are better than going it alone and whatever security Israel provides is profoundly appreciated.
It's interesting that you mention strange political bedfellows, because some emphasis in this debate-- and I'm not saying from you necessarily-- has been placed on Arab anti-Semitism. This is straying a little from the current post, but I think people really need to sit down and make an honest evaluation of how the formation of Israel almost overnight created a market for the dissemenation of European anti-Semitic and revisionist historian, Holocaust denial literature translated into Arabic where their previously was little or none at all. Now you have people-- although not the majority-- using these items as a sort of Claxon Call as to the purported "Evilness of The Jews."
A lot of this I see as a grasping at straws in an attempt to further politicize people against foreign invaders. The story of the textbook that says " _________ group of people is descended from monkeys" is an almost universal one when looking at people fighting colonialism. Basically just turning the white racist mythos around. Is it racist? Absolutely. And as such, it's lamentable and hurts everybody. It's also a sad last gasp. To view it in the same political context as Europe's tradition of equating Jewry with parasitism seems also misguided-- Especially if one is willing to look the other way regarding Israel's anti-Semitic supporters from that very school.
Another thing that has been glazed over in discussions on this board is the conflation of the terms "Jew" and "Israeli." The Israeli gov't and suporters of Israel have gone to great length to say basically "We ARE The Jews. We speak for the Jews" therein equating "Israeli" and "Israel" with "Jew" and/or "Jewish." As angry as it makes people, take a moment to reflect on whether or not people speaking of pushing the Jews into the sea are saying "eradicating Jewry" or "Pushing Israel into the sea." In fact, I'm pretty sure a lot of people in the resistance movement are hip to the game and will say expressly "Push the invaders into the sea." Compare this to Partisans during WWII using similar language, or members of the ANC, or landless peoples' movements. In fact, the popular Palestinian protest viewpoint seems to be to equate Israel w/ the Third Reich, therein implicitly acknowledging (A) the Holocaust DID happen, and (B) it was an atrocity. The characterization of every Palestinian who has ever spoken of "driving the invaders out" as a vocal dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semite with a Thules (sp?) Society tract in his/her back pocket is not based in any sort of realistic understanding of political affairs. A far more compelling argument can be made however that many of those bankrolling Israel in this country are of that ilk.
Ultimately, the crux of your position is that Israel has never been legitimately engaged in the region. I respond that I simply don't care whether it is or isn't. Israel exists where Israel exists, for better or worse, and its continued existence matters more to me than most anything else. You clearly have a well calibrated sense of social justice, but I???m not keen on testing its boundaries when the West decides again that one is too many. Thanks to Israel, I don???t have to.
And again, therein lies my point. What sort of sanctuary is Israel going to provide when the people who oversee it decide to reneg (or finalize their End Times visions)?
Comments
I think you're wasting to your breath, Guzzo. The positions of these groups are common knowledge, but they're of no interest to anyone who isn't Jewish. You're supposed to submit, shut up and die.
sorry I forgot. I'll go back to watching Screech on The View
Yeah, I hear you, but I think this has more to do with how they define Judaism than race. My guess is that someone who can prove their mother was Jewish, say a mixed race American would not have a problem. You may have a problem with their narrow definition of Judaism, but my suspicion is your really just grasping at straws trying to paint Israel as racist. I doubt fundamentalist Muslim countries in the region are as welcoming to sects they disagree with, and I don't see any difference between this and say German or Swiss laws which grant rights to people who can prove their ancestry. Whether you think all the above examples are fucked up is another question, but I dont think Israel is the most egregious offender here, and I think to highlight them shows your biases. Also, while this is debatable
This is not
I think you'd find few on this board (paul excluded
Keep turning the blind eye my friend, and I'll keep waiting for you to ever follow up on anything.
I'm gonna take a guess and assume that your little shit-eating grin next to my name was some indication of a joke on your end.
Otherwise, please to show where I ever expressed a desire to wipe "Lebanon" or "Muslims" from the face of the earth.
Been busy for a minute so I am just getting back to this thread now.
Haz, I find your accusation that gentiles want/believe that Jews should die horrible deaths is simply absurd. It ignores most of the history of the west's approach to Jews since the holocaust and reveals you to be both paranoid and dishonest. Which is sad because you clearly love your people. You do everyone a great diservice with your hyperbole and knee-jerk defense of all things Israeli. Your monomania blinds you even to the reasoned arguments presetned here on SS. Look closely at my statement and you will see that I place most of the onus on the Arabs for the current stalemate between Palestinians and Israelis.
As the grandchild of holocaust survivor, a Jew and someone with a brain, I understand that your twisted generalizations about gentiles and jew haters however do not apply to me.
Guzzo, I appreciate your stance that this may never be solved because people don't want it solved. To our eyes the parties positions seem intractable but the reality is that all positions are relative and will eventually change. I believe one day this will get solved and the result will look much like what was on the table in 1993. Sad but true.
Oh. Okay.
Funny.
Apocalypse Near
Got some folls breathing down my neck (no homo) trying to use this computer terminal. So I haven??t had a chance to read the latest posts too carefully.
Just wanna reiterate big ups to Guzzo, Haz, Unheard, Paul and the rest for bringing the sanity.
Just got in last night. Bout to walk around the beautiful city that is BA.
A propos, Argentina is a country to which the Jews have contributed immeasurably. Yet when push came to shove HEZBOLLAH was able to blow up their community center with impunity. The Argentine authorities were heavily implicated in the carrying out of the attack and the cover-up. So yeah, am yisrael chai is just about all I have to say I guess. Those who like to sit around cafes wearing their fashion kaffiyehs and discussing academically the dismantlement of the Jewish state need to check themselves. That is all.
I cannot dismiss your argument about social inequality as easily as some. However, it doesn't seem to me that the presence of inequality necessarily delegitimises the state where it exists. Assuming you're correct in the charge that only whites enjoy full social agency in Israel, I venture that the solution is not to abolish the country, but to work towards greater equality. No doubt the same charge could be levied against any number of states, not the least of which is America. I suspect you don't preach its dissolution.
The thrust of you other points appears to be that I ought to be troubled that Israel doesn't exist in a perfect world. That is, some of its allies in the States are fundamentalist Christians who only care for Jews and Israel insofar as the two will fall away and pave the way for the Rapture when the Apacolypse is nigh (but to call them "goosesteppers" is nonetheless unfair); its Europeans allies are the same people who have happily killed and displaced Jews for millennia; it only affords Jews what you think is an illusory security; and its creation had a profound negative impact on some Arabs. Yes, these issues are all troubling, but we don't live in a perfect world. Strange bedfellows are better than going it alone and whatever security Israel provides is profoundly appreciated.
Ultimately, the crux of your position is that Israel has never been legitimately engaged in the region. I respond that I simply don't care whether it is or isn't. Israel exists where Israel exists, for better or worse, and its continued existence matters more to me than most anything else. You clearly have a well calibrated sense of social justice, but I???m not keen on testing its boundaries when the West decides again that one is too many. Thanks to Israel, I don???t have to.
Maybe you'll find these anecdotes less problematic if you consider them in the context of the immigration and citizenship systems implemented by every country. In Germany, you only qualify as a refugee if you meet certain criteria and there is another set of criteria to qualify as a citizen. Despite being born in Germany, my father was deemed insufficiently German to be granted citizenship. These systems impose controls on borders so that countries aren't inundated with immigrants. Most people think this is reasonable enough and necessary for sovereignty.
In Israel, a fundamental policy is that the country is always open to Jews. This exists for obvious reasons. In many respects Israel is a pretty decent place to live. People want to immigrate. Hence the issue of distinguishing between "legitimate" Jews and Jews of convenience. I'm not suggesting the people mentioned above are not Jews--I don't know anything about that story--but it's too easy to dismiss the story as an example of racism. Racism may well be a force in Israeli society, but immigration policies are more complex than you concede.
Your points about Germany don't fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes as the case may be, and actually, among the articles/writings about Israeli immigration policy I'd planned to link already is a particularly interesting comparitive/contrasting analysis of Israeli and German right of return. Fourth link.
As always, read all of these critically:
http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=1107
http://card.wordpress.com/2006/08/06/israel-passes-nazisque-racial-marriage-law/
http://socialismandliberation.org/mag/index.php?aid=135
http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg45.PDF -- Some very interesting points/arguments. Worth the read. Note also the (extensive) endnotes.
http://www.aad-online.org/2005/english/6-June/4-9/4-6/aad7/3.htm -- peep this article as well as the varied reader responses. Also peep the links page.
And lastly, I gotta say, my man "Ultimately, the crux of your position is that Israel has never been legitimately engaged in the region. I respond that I simply don't care whether it is or isn't."
This is exactly what I'm getting at. People try to give this argument a window-dressing or veneer to distract from the fact that it is logically tantamount to saying "I don't care if Israel was established on the backs of people not culturally responsible for the persecution of Jews en masse." At the very least you denude this statement, but it's very unsettling to me that you don't recognize that attitude as itself Naziesque.
I understand what you're saying about not throwing the baby out with the bath water and how the presence of injustice within a country doesn't necessarily present a defeater to its claims of legitimacy. The thing is, the only rational way to approach this dilemma is to view it in terms of salience. The Jewish Right of Return, which is a cornerstone of Israeli immigration policy is critically linked with the nation's sovereignty. The things are inextricable.
And as far as suggesting the dissolution of the Americas, you're right on one count: I don't preach their dissolution. But not on grounds that I believe The Americas' colonialisms are of morally superior species than Israel's, but on pragmatic grounds and because the dilemma of the occupied Americas differs in some significant ways than that of occupied Palestine. First, you have the issue of time, which has made far more diffuse the cultural and geographic makeup of various peoples over the course of the Americas' history than Israel's. Also, there's the whole issue of captive nations of people. Particularly Africans. I've already expressed that I don't support endeavors such as Liberia. Repatriation for many many reasons is not an option.
In contrast, with Israel, we're not talking centuries-- We're talking 60 years. In that regard, Palestinian Right of Return could be recognized (as well as the call to make the former Israel a secular democracy with standard immigration policy). Victims of the Holocaust and their respective families would be owed further reparation and land subsidies/grants by European nations. I also want to make clear, again, that what I support here is autonomy. That knows no race, ethnicity, etc. I'd be railing just as hard against Palestinian mistreatment of Bedouin as I do Israeli misstreatment of Palestinians.
No, not just some. Particularly during this administration, most of Israel's non-Jewish political support comes from rabidly conservative Christians. And I don't see how the characterization of them as goosesteppers is unfair-- especially given that you're invoking the looming threat of those goosesteppers. Precisely what idealogues do you think will compose the next Gestapo, or at least the next set of "good Germans?" Many of these people were up until recently making anti-Semitic pronouncements, several have entrenched familial links to Naziism (while not alone damning, the support certainly is), etc.
It's interesting that you mention strange political bedfellows, because some emphasis in this debate-- and I'm not saying from you necessarily-- has been placed on Arab anti-Semitism. This is straying a little from the current post, but I think people really need to sit down and make an honest evaluation of how the formation of Israel almost overnight created a market for the dissemenation of European anti-Semitic and revisionist historian, Holocaust denial literature translated into Arabic where their previously was little or none at all. Now you have people-- although not the majority-- using these items as a sort of Claxon Call as to the purported "Evilness of The Jews."
A lot of this I see as a grasping at straws in an attempt to further politicize people against foreign invaders. The story of the textbook that says " _________ group of people is descended from monkeys" is an almost universal one when looking at people fighting colonialism. Basically just turning the white racist mythos around. Is it racist? Absolutely. And as such, it's lamentable and hurts everybody. It's also a sad last gasp. To view it in the same political context as Europe's tradition of equating Jewry with parasitism seems also misguided-- Especially if one is willing to look the other way regarding Israel's anti-Semitic supporters from that very school.
Another thing that has been glazed over in discussions on this board is the conflation of the terms "Jew" and "Israeli." The Israeli gov't and suporters of Israel have gone to great length to say basically "We ARE The Jews. We speak for the Jews" therein equating "Israeli" and "Israel" with "Jew" and/or "Jewish." As angry as it makes people, take a moment to reflect on whether or not people speaking of pushing the Jews into the sea are saying "eradicating Jewry" or "Pushing Israel into the sea." In fact, I'm pretty sure a lot of people in the resistance movement are hip to the game and will say expressly "Push the invaders into the sea." Compare this to Partisans during WWII using similar language, or members of the ANC, or landless peoples' movements. In fact, the popular Palestinian protest viewpoint seems to be to equate Israel w/ the Third Reich, therein implicitly acknowledging (A) the Holocaust DID happen, and (B) it was an atrocity. The characterization of every Palestinian who has ever spoken of "driving the invaders out" as a vocal dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semite with a Thules (sp?) Society tract in his/her back pocket is not based in any sort of realistic understanding of political affairs. A far more compelling argument can be made however that many of those bankrolling Israel in this country are of that ilk.
And again, therein lies my point. What sort of sanctuary is Israel going to provide when the people who oversee it decide to reneg (or finalize their End Times visions)?