Is Israel going too far?

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  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    [ Put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli government. Can you imagine how the US would react if terrorists were CONSTANTLY killing american citizens...over here.

    This kind of analogy doesn't fly for me. Americans have a completely different world view and situation than Israel does. America has 2 oceans and two neighbors which we dominate as our borders. We are the only remaining superpower. We are the richest country in the world. We feel superior generally compared ot other countries. We feel like we set the rules of the game. All of our sports teams are "world champions." We feel like we win every war we get into, etc. etc. Israel is completely different in terms of the power relations, its culture, its general situation. Do you know anyting about Poland's history? For most of its history its been dominated by its neighbors. From 1939-1945 it was controlled by Nazi Germany, and then from 1945 to the end of the Cold War it was controlled by the Soviet Union. Basically 50 years of foreign domination and was dominated by Prussia and Russia before that. Can you say, well what would Americans do if they had been invaded over and over and dominated by foreign countries like Poland? Can you say look at Congo, what if America was in a civil war like that, by God Americans wouldn't put up with it! Comparing countries and their responses doesn't really work unless there are a lot of similarities and America and Israel's situations are not really similar.

  • dayday 9,612 Posts



    Take that shit to KindergartenStrut.

    Are you gunning for some kind of investigative reporting award for exposing my double stacked post? If not, the Big Brother tag applies. The simple fact that you wrote, "Take that shit to KindergartenStrut" speaks volumes.

    I just happened to catch what you wrote earlier. No "Big Brother"-ness about it. If you don't see what you posted in both of those threads as being childish, I can't help you. And again, wtf are even doing posting that in the first place?
    Way to derail the thread, billy.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    [ Put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli government. Can you imagine how the US would react if terrorists were CONSTANTLY killing american citizens...over here.

    America has 2 oceans and two neighbors which we dominate as our borders. We are the only remaining superpower. We are the richest country in the world. We feel superior generally compared ot other countries. We feel like we set the rules of the game. All of our sports teams are "world champions." We feel like we win every war we get into, etc. etc.

    OK....given all that sarcastic self-loathing..... Can you imagine how the US would react if terrorists were CONSTANTLY killing american citizens...over here.[/b]

  • moving on....

    Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:09pm ET
    TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran's Hizbollah, which claims links to the Lebanese group of the same name, said on Tuesday it stood ready to attack Israeli and U.S. interests worldwide.

    "We have 2,000 volunteers who have registered since last year," said Iranian Hizbollah's spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli, speaking by telephone from the central seminary city of Qom.

    "They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardise Israel and America's interests. We are only waiting for the Supreme Leader's green light to take action. If America wants to ignite World War Three ... we welcome it," he said.

    Iranian religious organisations have made great public show of recruiting volunteers for "martyrdom-seeking operations" in recent years, usually threatening U.S. interests in case of any attack against the Islamic Republic's nuclear programme.



    But there is no record of an Iranian volunteer from these recruitment campaigns taking part in an attack.

    Iran's Hizbollah (Party of God) says it is spiritually bound to Shi'ite Muslim guerrillas in Lebanon but its command structure and funding are unclear.

    Despite Iranian Hizbollah's insistence that it takes orders from Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei, government ministries say Hizbollah does not implement official policy. Iran's government has said it hopes for a diplomatic solution to the Israeli offensive in Lebanon.

    While Iran did fund and support Lebanese Hizbollah during the 1980s, Tehran says it has not contributed troops or weapons in the latest violence. Israel says Iranian armaments have been fired against it.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    [ Put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli government. Can you imagine how the US would react if terrorists were CONSTANTLY killing american citizens...over here.

    America has 2 oceans and two neighbors which we dominate as our borders. We are the only remaining superpower. We are the richest country in the world. We feel superior generally compared ot other countries. We feel like we set the rules of the game. All of our sports teams are "world champions." We feel like we win every war we get into, etc. etc.

    OK....given all that sarcastic self-loathing..... Can you imagine how the US would react if terrorists were CONSTANTLY killing american citizens...over here.[/b]

    Yeah, that's really "self-laothing" there. And guess what, the Israeli government's policy has been to deal with it. Withdraw behind the wall, get rid of the settlements that aren't going to be included by it, make some military responses every now and then, but basically make the best out of a bad situation. Does that sound like "what America would do"???? Because it's what Israel has been doing. In a couple week, the attacks on Lebanon are probably going to end, and things will return to the status quo. Is that what Americans would do? Tell me Rock.

    Better yet, go tell the Israelis they're not acting very American.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    And Rock, all of those ideas about America I just wrote about are called American Exceptionalism. President Bush talks about it all the time when he says America has a special role to play in the world. Writers have been talking about all the way back to Alex de Tocqueville.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    We don't need to hypothesize: America, following 9/11, invaded two countries and instituted regime change. If it had been Hezbollah, not Al Qaeda that had pulled off 9/11, does anyone here not believe the US would have seriously considered invading Lebanon?

    I'm not saying they'd be justified doing it - only that this would have been a logical conclusion given what we've seen elsewhere.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    And Rock, all of those ideas about America I just wrote about are called American Exceptionalism. President Bush talks about it all the time when he says America has a special role to play in the world. Writers have been talking about all the way back to Alex de Tocqueville.

    I agree....as a country, we're exceptional.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    And Rock, all of those ideas about America I just wrote about are called American Exceptionalism. President Bush talks about it all the time when he says America has a special role to play in the world. Writers have been talking about all the way back to Alex de Tocqueville.

    I agree....as a country, we're exceptional.

    So should Israel act like us then? That was the original point. I said no because they're in different situations. Somehow when I tried to explain how American exceptionalism gives America a totally different outlook than Israel's and most other countries for that matter, you take this as "self-loathing" on my part. I wonder if you actually read the posts sometimes Rock.

  • RockadelicRockadelic Out Digging 13,993 Posts
    And Rock, all of those ideas about America I just wrote about are called American Exceptionalism. President Bush talks about it all the time when he says America has a special role to play in the world. Writers have been talking about all the way back to Alex de Tocqueville.

    I agree....as a country, we're exceptional.

    So should Israel act like us then? That was the original point. I said no because they're in different situations. Somehow when I tried to explain how American exceptionalism gives America a totally different outlook than Israel's and most other countries for that matter, you take this as "self-loathing" on my part. I wonder if you actually read the posts sometimes Rock.

    Oh I read em....I just may have a different shade of glasses on than you.

    Early on you suggested that Israel might just sit back and wait for the Palestinians to "get their shit together" a proposition that you yourself admit you don't see happening any time soon.

    So the scenario was presented that America wouldn't just sit back and wait and neither should Israel.....in that regard the analogy was spot on.

    For you to suggest that any people should sit back and accept missles and terrorist attacks as the status quo is absurd, sort of like that guy who said a rape victim should just lie back and enjoy it.

  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    For you to suggest that any people should sit back and accept missles and terrorist attacks as the status quo is absurd, sort of like that guy who said a rape victim should just lie back and enjoy it.

    a little extreme, but pretty much on point.

    Israel seems to be under this double standard where they are attacked but are chasitized for attacking back.

    The "just take it" idea is absolutely insane, no one should sit back and take the destruction of its territory or its people like its just par for the course. America wouldn't do it as a nation and its history reflects it (Pearl Harbor, 9/11).

    Criticizing Israel for fighting back when being attacked on two fronts is just plain odd. In order to defend its borders it is forced to strike at enemies that are damn near within walking distance of the country.

    Hezbollah has strategically decided to stay in residential neighborhoods, if anything a group that declares "total war" on a nation should be a little less cowardly than to hide behind innocent civilians.

    People here can continue to criticize Israel for "going too far" but thats just bullshit, Israel is in a defensive mode, they are fending off attackers and if they have the opportunity they will quell any hate groups that wish to destroy them.

    As far as I'm concerned the real question about going too far should be pointed in the other direction

  • yuichiyuichi Urban sprawl 11,331 Posts
    People's gut reactions to an attack is usually to hit back even harder.

    Too many people follow through on their gut reactions.

    If you want to get all philosophical about it, war is only an extension of politics anyways, and in Israel's case they're fucked because they have all the military force, but they have no one to negotiate with on the Palestinian side to do the politics part of that equation.

    I really do think the situation is so bad, it's damn near impossible to reverse course. People are willing to sacrifice their lives to kill another man. That mentality is hard to get rid of, and historically, how well have we dealt with such people? Maybe striking back isn't the best idea, unless you want to annihilate and completely demoralize half the population of a particular country or region. In which case, it would be a full-on war.

  • VitaminVitamin 631 Posts
    For you to suggest that any people should sit back and accept missles and terrorist attacks as the status quo is absurd, sort of like that guy who said a rape victim should just lie back and enjoy it.

    a little extreme, but pretty much on point.

    Israel seems to be under this double standard where they are attacked but are chasitized for attacking back.

    The "just take it" idea is absolutely insane, no one should sit back and take the destruction of its territory or its people like its just par for the course. America wouldn't do it as a nation and its history reflects it (Pearl Harbor, 9/11).

    Criticizing Israel for fighting back when being attacked on two fronts is just plain odd. In order to defend its borders it is forced to strike at enemies that are damn near within walking distance of the country.

    Hezbollah has strategically decided to stay in residential neighborhoods, if anything a group that declares "total war" on a nation should be a little less cowardly than to hide behind innocent civilians.

    People here can continue to criticize Israel for "going too far" but thats just bullshit, Israel is in a defensive mode, they are fending off attackers and if they have the opportunity they will quell any hate groups that wish to destroy them.

    As far as I'm concerned the real question about going too far should be pointed in the other direction


    Listen, I am as Zionist as it gets on this board. But I don't understand what Israel is doing right now. There are things they could have done than bomb the suburbs of beirut, ports of tripoli and the Hariri airport. They could have limited their bombings on hezbollah's strong hold in southern Lebanon and bombed the summer palace of Bashar Assad. They could have firmly told Lebanese prime minister Sinoira that they would start bombing Hezbollah targets in Beirut if he did not begin implementing UN resolution 1559. But these attacks are going to end up making Nasrallah, Iran and the west's enemies heroes all over the Arab world. A few government paid hacks for Saudi newspapers--who are all too happy to see Israel do this--do not speak for anyone on the street. You already see the hezbollah flags in Cairo, among Sunnis who see them as the only Arabs willing to stand up against the Zionist entity. I empathize 100 percent with Israel's frustration right now. But I can also refrain from an impulse to cheer on "laying waste to" Lebanon, a country where many would be all too happy to see hezbollah dismantled. These are innocent victims. And the line that the terrorists would use the airport or seaports to ferret out the soldiers they kidnapped is laughable. They are going to use the back roads to Syria, like everyone else is using. Finally, the aim of the bombing won't work. If Israel wants to dismantle and destroy hezbollah, it must reinvade the country. And when they did that, shiites at first welcomed them, but soon grew wary and formed with the help of Iran one of the worst terrorist groups on the planet--hezbollah.

  • paulnicepaulnice 924 Posts
    All blame for the current situation falls squarely in the lap of Hezbollah (and those who pull their strings) Period.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    For you to suggest that any people should sit back and accept missles and terrorist attacks as the status quo is absurd, sort of like that guy who said a rape victim should just lie back and enjoy it.

    a little extreme, but pretty much on point.

    Israel seems to be under this double standard where they are attacked but are chasitized for attacking back.

    The "just take it" idea is absolutely insane, no one should sit back and take the destruction of its territory or its people like its just par for the course. America wouldn't do it as a nation and its history reflects it (Pearl Harbor, 9/11).

    Well go protest to the Israeli government, because that is their plan. Holding on to most of the Occupied Territories is too costly and doesn't seem to serve any purpose anymore, so they are going to withdraw to a more defensible situation behind their wall. There will still be missile attacks, but there were missile attacks before. They cannot be stopped by military means, plain and simple. There will be military responses like what's going on in Gaza and Lebanon right now, but that will eventually end, probably to be repeated sometime in the near future.

    And again, Israel is not America. They are not dealing with similar situations.

  • dayday 9,612 Posts


    People here can continue to criticize Israel for "going too far" but thats just bullshit, Israel is in a defensive mode, they are fending off attackers and if they have the opportunity they will quell any hate groups that wish to destroy them.


    This is what I was talking about when I asked the intial question in this thread.

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B389023.htm

    BEIRUT, July 18 (Reuters) - A dairy factory, a lighthouse, civilian buses and a medical truck are just a few of the more puzzling targets hit in Israel's week-old pounding of Lebanon.

    Many Lebanese, bitter if not surprised at the havoc Israel is wreaking on their country, find it hard to understand why the Israelis are bombing the Lebanese army -- the same army Israel says it wants to replace Hizbollah guerrillas in the south.

    Nor has Israel, which allied with Christian militias when it invaded Lebanon to expel Palestinian guerrillas in 1982, spared Christian ports like Jounieh and Amsheet north of Beirut.




  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    I too do not understand this strategy.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    I too do not understand this strategy.

    I'm not sure either, becuase it seems like most of the places they're hitting do not directly have to do with Hezbollah. They hit a Lebanese army base for example. The Israelis have said that they blew up the ports, airport and road to Syria because that's how Hezbollah gets its weapons from Syria and Iran, and that they hope to diminish Hezbollah's arsenal. Then I hear report on CNN that say Hezbollah's got an arsenal of about 10,000 missiles stored up hidden all over Southern Lebanon, so good luck trying on that task.

    Perhaps the strategy was to blow shit up to force the Lebanese government to move into Southern Lebanon? I don't know.

  • Jonny_PaycheckJonny_Paycheck 17,825 Posts
    They lost me bombing the Lebanese army.

  • JLRJLR 3,835 Posts



    there's no fucking BIG IDEA that justifies this.

  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts
    I too do not understand this strategy.

    I'm not going to pretend like I know what the Israeli government is thinking right now, but I can only assume they are trying heading to war because its an option that has not been exercised for quite some time.

    This is country that is surrounded by hostile countries, a country founded as a refuge for Jews who have faced horrible attrocities for centuries. Being defensive is what they do best.

    I was against the wall they put up a couple years back and I was against many of Sharons policies before his late change of heart, but although I wasn't for them I can understand that a country in such a delicate postiion and a people with such a persecuted history may feel the need to take drastic actions. This is just another one of those actions, and before anyone reads my words wrong, I don't thnk this was all that drastic.

    When a group with warheads and a need to see you pushed into the ocean kidnaps your people and calls for total war you got to respond accordingly. Sitting back could have actually made the situation worse. Remeber this was the 2nd kidnapping of Israeli soldiers within a week. how much longer do you get picked on before you say "hey stop picking on me"?

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts
    They lost me bombing the Lebanese army.

    From the NYT:

    "Israel, which is trying to destroy the military capacity of the Hezbollah militia and secure the release of two captured soldiers, said that it was aiming at only Hezbollah and not the Lebanese Army, although on Monday, a Lebanese Army position was shelled in Tripoli and eight soldiers died."

    "Among the attacks in Lebanon today, a convoy of medical goods donated by the United Arab Emirates was hit in the Bekaa valley near Zahle, a mostly Christian town on one of the few open roads linking Syria and Beirut. Two trucks were destroyed and their drivers killed"


  • dayday 9,612 Posts
    I'm genuinely concerned this could get out of hand. Especially if it catalyzes other factions to get involved. I'm sure those who already have problems with Israel will use this to their advantage in gaining support for their "cause". Which, of course, would bring in other major countries possibly starting WWIII. And I don't think that's an outlandish thought, unfortunately.

  • motown67motown67 4,513 Posts
    And Rock, all of those ideas about America I just wrote about are called American Exceptionalism. President Bush talks about it all the time when he says America has a special role to play in the world. Writers have been talking about all the way back to Alex de Tocqueville.

    I agree....as a country, we're exceptional.

    So should Israel act like us then? That was the original point. I said no because they're in different situations. Somehow when I tried to explain how American exceptionalism gives America a totally different outlook than Israel's and most other countries for that matter, you take this as "self-loathing" on my part. I wonder if you actually read the posts sometimes Rock.

    Oh I read em....I just may have a different shade of glasses on than you.

    Early on you suggested that Israel might just sit back and wait for the Palestinians to "get their shit together" a proposition that you yourself admit you don't see happening any time soon.

    So the scenario was presented that America wouldn't just sit back and wait and neither should Israel.....in that regard the analogy was spot on.

    For you to suggest that any people should sit back and accept missles and terrorist attacks as the status quo is absurd, sort of like that guy who said a rape victim should just lie back and enjoy it.

    Here's the two guys you should be complaing to then. One of them might be a little hard to get to though.


  • GuzzoGuzzo 8,611 Posts



    there's no fucking BIG IDEA that justifies this.

    you're right, but please don't think this is just something that the mean Israelis are doing while the freedom fighting Hezbollah is playing it regal.

    Ever seen the aftermath of a suicide bombing?

  • dayday 9,612 Posts
    I too do not understand this strategy.

    I'm not going to pretend like I know what the Israeli government is thinking right now, but I can only assume they are trying heading to war because its an option that has not been exercised for quite some time.

    This is country that is surrounded by hostile countries, a country founded as a refuge for Jews who have faced horrible attrocities for centuries. Being defensive is what they do best.

    I was against the wall they put up a couple years back and I was against many of Sharons policies before his late change of heart, but although I wasn't for them I can understand that a country in such a delicate postiion and a people with such a persecuted history may feel the need to take drastic actions. This is just another one of those actions, and before anyone reads my words wrong, I don't thnk this was all that drastic.

    When a group with warheads and a need to see you pushed into the ocean kidnaps your people and calls for total war you got to respond accordingly. Sitting back could have actually made the situation worse. Remeber this was the 2nd kidnapping of Israeli soldiers within a week. how much longer do you get picked on before you say "hey stop picking on me"?

    Adam, nobody is saying they shouldn't have fought back.
    It's who they're actually hurting and the reason why that has us asking these questions.

  • mannybolonemannybolone Los Angeles, CA 15,025 Posts



    there's no fucking BIG IDEA that justifies this.

    you're right, but please don't think this is just something that the mean Israelis are doing while the freedom fighting Hezbollah is playing it regal.

    Ever seen the aftermath of a suicide bombing?

    No one is defending Hezbollah at all. AT ALL.

  • JLRJLR 3,835 Posts



    there's no fucking BIG IDEA that justifies this.

    you're right, but please don't think this is just something that the mean Israelis are doing while the freedom fighting Hezbollah is playing it regal.

    Ever seen the aftermath of a suicide bombing?

    Oh no, I don't. But I do believe that kid's life was bigger that Israel, Hezbollah, your life or mine.

  • paulnicepaulnice 924 Posts

    Ever seen the aftermath of a suicide bombing?


  • paulnicepaulnice 924 Posts
    Oh no, I don't. But I do believe that kid's life was bigger that Israel, Hezbollah, your life or mine.


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