Is Israel going too far?
day
9,611 Posts
The Lebanese government is begging for a cease fire, 100 civillians and 4 Israeli civillians are dead, the country is demolished, etc. It seems heavy handed to me.Why are they destroying the country instead of focusing on the fucking scum who started this whole thing?
CNN: The IDF said it was making "every effort" to avoid civilian casualties, adding: "Responsibility for endangering civilian population rests on the Hezbollah terror organization, which operates and launches missiles at Israel from populated civilian areas."More than 75 rockets were fired at Israeli towns on Saturday, the IDF said.One barrage struck Nahariya, a northwestern town near the Lebanese border. There were no immediate reports of injuries.
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Israel killed at least 34 civilians on Saturday, including 15 children, in air strikes meant to punish Lebanon for letting Hizbollah guerrillas menace the Jewish state's northern border.Israel's bombing of Lebanese roads, bridges, ports and airports, as well as Hizbollah targets, is its most destructive onslaught since a 1982 invasion to expel Palestinian forces.For the first time, ports in Christian areas were bombarded and a helicopter missile hit a lighthouse on Beirut's seafront.Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora demanded an immediate U.N.-backed ceasefire, denouncing Israel for turning his country into a "disaster zone". He appealed for foreign aid.An Israeli missile incinerated a van in southern Lebanon, killing 20 people, among them 15 children, in the deadliest single attack of the campaign launched by Israel after Hizbollah captured two of its soldiers and killed eight on Wednesday.Police said the van was carrying two families fleeing the village of Marwaheen after Israeli loudspeaker warnings to leave their homes. Many of the bodies were charred and broken.Other raids on north, east and south Lebanon killed 14 people and wounded 37, security sources said.At least 103 people, all but four of them civilians, have been killed in Israel's four-day-old assault, which has choked Lebanon's economy and prompted tourists and foreigners to flee.
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Because the "fucking scum" you refer to are PART of the Lebanese government.
The Israeli AMB to the UN said it best.
What would the US do if Canada lobbed a bunch of missiles into Chicago and kidnapped some of our soldiers?
Would we just sit back and do nothing?
Would we send Canada a postcard?
No, we would do what any democratic nation would do.
Defend itself.
So, in answer to your question... no, Israel is not going too far.
Exactly, the "official" Lebanese government doesn't really have any power or control. I feel terribly about all of the innocents caught up in this... but Hezbollah (who is a proxy army for Iran and Syria, and the defacto controlling party of Lebanon) has declared war on Israel. I don't know what people want.
No, it's war. Declared, even.
I believe it's a question of degrees....
Since the Syrian assasination of PM Harriri, Lebanon has been on very fragile footing.
There are many groups, who already have various levels of trouble with one another, mainly- Christians, Druze, Shia, Sunni..Now each of these groups is split along pro-Syrian and anti-syrian lines.
Lebanon is a small country and with Syria backing Hizbollah the many people who would like to see them disarmed cannot compare in terms of leverage/ backing. The US, France talk about Lebanese independence but no one's got their back against Syria...
Now Israel knows this, and they know that most of Hizbollah has probably been in Syria since right after the whole thing popped off. and they've destroyed all the main roads, the airport, killed at least 80 civilians so far...they've ruined the economy, infrastructure, and stirred up a country which was already in danger of civil war.
I think it's a bit excessive. For the record, I think Israel, Hamas, and Hizbollah are all in the wrong, and you measure how much by how many innocents/ civilians they've killed.
It seems at least, that Israel's intent is to make an entire country suffer for what amounts to a handful of out-of-control militants creating chaos along the border. I can't imagine these Hezbollah assholes in the south would be using the airport in Beruit. So why the need to decimate it? What good is a naval blockade turning away shipments of food and fuel other than to inflict mass suffering and destabalization of an entire country?
OK... first of all, Hezbollah has seats in the Lebanese parliament... not a fringe group. this is not "a handful of out-of-control militants"! It is an army that has created a mini-state in southern Lebanon that has tens of thousands of rockets, missiles, and guns. They are more heavily armed than the Lebanese government itself.
Folls really need to understand this.
Don't they make up about 10% of Parlaiment though (14 out of 128 seats)?
"Hezbollah fighters operate with almost total autonomy in southern Lebanon, and the government has no control over their actions, according to The Associated Press."
I watched the Prime Minister pleading for help last night. Considering Siniora is the acting leader who did not initiate this situation, how can you say it's right the whole country suffers? I'm not the only one pondering this question. I agree, Israel has every right to defend itself and has taken action to ease tensions with Palestine, but you can't go killing dozens of civillians and destroying a country when a handful of lunatics start shit. I know I'm over simplifying things greatly here, but look at the sequence of events:
To me, it seems like killing a fly with an atom bomb. We all know Israel is the super power in that region. They want to "punish" the people of Lebanon for not taking action against Hezbollah.
It always pains me to see the people caught in the middle. I can't see how other means couldn't have been taken.
So is Israel's bombing campaign doing anything to strengthen the "sane" wing of the Lebanese government's hand? I'm not an expert on Lebanese political winds , but I don't think prior to this, hezbollah had much wide-spread popularity thoughout the country. Beirut infact is one of the more open-minded, diverse, and "westerinzed" cities in the region is it not? I just don't know if Israel's wild and frenzied bombing of a major capital city is either farsighted OR rational, not to mention justified.
Look at Paul's analogy - if Canada, or Mexico lobbed a gang of missiles into the country, abducted a couple soldiers and killed 8 more, what would we do? What would you recommend? Negotiation? Sanctions?
Shit is soft dog. I don't like killing and I am for sure not some kind of hardcore gun dude. But you gotta look at it like this: Israel has been attacked repeatedly by all of its neighbors, most of whom declare openly that they want the entire nation - and its inhabitants, who just so happen to be all one ethnic group - wiped off the face of the map. How long do they turn the other cheek, negotiate, swap, etc? The vast majority of Israelis is for war, last I heard... as are the majority of Muslims in the region. So war it is.
Maybe it's cause I'm part Jewish. Put yourself in those shoes though. That so-called "fringe group" (which in fact represents the majority of public opinion in the Middle East) wants to ANNIHILATE Jews in the region. What would you do fam?
Yes and we have to live with that. Bush's actions in Iraq have increased the threat to all of us. If there is another terrorist attack on US soil because of Iraq, people who did not vote for Bush will also suffer.
That is the way of the world.
I would like to hear some possible alternatives, because right now all I am hearing is that Israel should just "DEAL WITH IT" (nolatency)
First of all, Israel is NOT a superpower, by any regional standards. Population wise, it is the size of Toronto. Land-mass, maybe 3x Toronto. Budget wise, it is a *tiny* fraction of any reasonably sized country, with expenditures, including defense, being $50 billion US (with a considerably lower level of revenues). That superhappyterrific and absolutely necessary IDF that everyone always mentions first about Israel has crippled the people economically, and there are few capitals in the developed world (I say 'developed' because everyone always equates israel with the West) one can travel to where it is clear that the infrastructure has been so heavily debilitated by decades of fighting. By world standards, Israel is a 3rd world nation, however, because of the systematic global anti-semetism, no one will admit to that.
Day, let me ask you this. If we in Canada rejoiced at the deaths of those in 9/11, would you change your views on us? Haven't you ever seen footage of Hezbollah supporters frantically shouting praise for those who attack the West, and Israel, especially during the aftermath of 9/11? If we were to take particular glee in your fellow countrymen's deaths, wouldn't you start to think of Canada as evil? If after this, with all our anti-US rallies, then decided to for instance, to launch an attack on Buffalo, but then kidnapped border patrol men in Niagara falls while the U.S. army was busy protecting those being hailed with our offensive in Bufallo, and again many within our country celebrated the success of that kidnap a kin to those celebrations following Italy's victory of the world cup, would this change your perspective? Well, this is *exactly* what is happening with every successful attack on Israel, this last one being absolutely no exception.
I agree that it is unfortunate no other option exists. I agree that the necessary use of force is sad, especially when those "superpower" IDF forces are really just 19 and 20 year old boys. However, for the sake of Israel and the safety of it's citizens, there is no other option. Unfortunately, most in the west view the Middle Eastern conflict as a Judeo-Christian, and maintains that same system of beliefs in trying to come to a solution. The terrorist rhetoric is completely different, and needs a different solution, unfortunately being force. There is just no other way...
RON
I gotta ask.
For all of you here who criticise Israel's action these past few days, where have you been during the last year since Israel completely pulled out of Gaza and the only Arab/Palestinian response has been to lob over ONE THOUSAND missiles into Israel since that time?
Where was your condemnation over that during this whole year?
That's right.
Quiet as a fucking mouse.
Couldn't have said it any better... werd.
RON
You're right.. it's a very complicated situation, and certainly, the U.S. involvement makes it hard for those who don't like the U.S. or it's policies in the Middle East to negate Israel's existence entirely... but I'll tell you what is NOT complicated and what does NOT involve the U.S. - people being missile targets day in and day out from various borders of a country. There is nothing virtually anyone can say about a nation deserving a halt to this... if the Palestinians or Hezbollah were to target Egyptian people and population centers every day for years, wouldn't there be a right of the Egyptians to strike back?
Foreign policy is one thing... and certainly, the U.S. has demonstrated, to say very lightly, the "complicated nature" of it... but people don't deserve to live in daily fear because they live in Israel.
RON
To my knowledge that has all been between Hamas/Palestine and Israel and to be quite honest with you, it seemed like business as usual between the two. I know about rockets being fired into Israel but never heard much about damage or casualties. I did, however, hear about them blowing up a family having a picnic on the beach in retaliation. I'm not saying anything other than what I saw in the news so don't read into that as taking sides, because I think EVERYONE in this situation is fucked up.
Jon,
I totally agree with you. I think they should eliminate the "fucking scum" (which any group who lobs rockets at innocent people and hides behind other innocent people is just that) that caused this whole problem to begin with. Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda etc. all need to be dealt with no question.
It's well known that this attack is being sponsored by Iran and most likely Syria to destablize the current governing majority in Lebanon and to hopefully bring about a consolidated war against Israel (I'm assuming the latter).
I think what we're seeing here is Israel letting loose after decades upon decades of tension within that entire region. It's understandable considering all the dynamics of what has led up to this week. I ask you though, do you condone what is being done or do you think they should go after Hezbollah specifically? I'm sure Mossad and the Israeli government have files upon files on all those dudes.
Bullshit.
You can disagree about policies all day long.
You can also take a stand as a human being as say "it's WRONG" to continuously attack Israel without any provocation whatsoever.
But you don't.
Like a good portion of the world, you remain completely silent whenever Israel is under attack.
It's only when Israel finaly strikes back that you're all on some "let's give peace a chance" bullshit.
Or "Israel is the agressor".
Or "Israel is overreacting".
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
Over ONE THOUSAND MISSILES fired into Israel since they've completely withdrawn from Gaza.
So much for an olive branch.
I agree and I don't think anyone suppports the position of Hezbollah, but at the same time I don't think anyone is supporting the indescriminate bombing and missilig that Israel has engaged in as a retalliation. to bring 9/11 in the picture, I don't think anyone in the US was against retalliation against the parties responsible. However just taking out a whole country ie. Iraq because they are thinly associated with terrorism and/or the adminstration just wanted thier oil reserves (:)) made the whole "war on terrorism" a different story. not exactly the same, but to say Israel should carpet bomb the country because to end civil war/create stability the new Lebanese Government agreed to allow Hezbollah seats in parliament is jst weak. Especially when you are trying to take the moral high ground. I just think that the retalliation/reaction could have been handled in a lot better manner. Hindsight is 20/20 though... I guess.
Such as?
Second, you can't *just* go after Hezbollah "specifically" - it's not like they're sitting in some army barracks, waiting to be bombed. They are nextdoor to families, in civilian territory, hoping that (again) Israel will either stay out in fear of too much collateral damage or go in and kill a bunch of innocents, thereby further igniting the opposition.
Palestinian fired rockets.
Do the knowledge.
Indiscriminate bombing? Those targets are very much chosen and fliers are usuallyl dropped prior to the attack so civilians have an opportunity to leave.
9/11 comparable? I understand why you cited 9/11 and the U.S. Government's percieved desire for oil, but Israel only wants peace for it's citizens and so it's OWN economy can proper, not oil. It gave up oil fields to Egypt at the end of the 6 days war.
Carpet bombing? See my first response.
moral high ground? Whenever possible, Israel takes it because it knows that the whole world watches every little move it makes. Why do you think these bombings occur at night, mostly at empty buildings when everyone has gone home to bed? Yet, with this even being said, even though Israel does all it can to avoid civilian losses, the 'targets' (aka. terrorists) hide AMONG civilians knowing the IDF is reluctant to take them out there... and so the moral choice is always the following: 'let the terrorist live for the sake of the civilians around him (usually his supporters who aren't armed but help him) so he can kill more Israeli's' or 'kill him and potentially halt another attack against Israel and endure the wrath of the world'... this is 99% of the problem.
What are your news sources 33third?
What do you think Israeli policy should be to daily attacks on it's people?
RON
This is misguided on several levels.
First off, when we went to Afghanistan with massive international and national support, we killed a lot of civilians. Nobody really lost a lot of sleep because, well, that's war. We "took out a whole country" in Afghanistan. But I don't see a lot of protest.
Second off, we didn't go to Iraq for oil reserves, I think that's been clearly proven by the current oil market, we went to establish permanent military bases which is of course why this is all happening now.
I mean, what would justify Israeli military action? What does Hamas, or Hezbollah, have to do? Detonate an atomic bomb in Tel Aviv? Drive a bus full of explosives into Ariel Sharon's hospital room? Shit man.
And acting like Israel can easily take out Hezbollah while spairing the masses of innocent civilians... It would sure be nice, but that's just not reality.
'heard about'? With all due respect, I think it's best you become more saavy on the topic, from both sides, before you throw around your opinions in this area.
For the record, my posts have clearly indicated my position. However, that doesn't stop me from consulting news sources like aljazeera or the daily post (lebanon), or even reading books like those written by Noam Chomsky (who, symbolically, is another problem in the Middle Eastern conflict - one thing that the other side does NOT suffer from nearly as much is dissent - i gotta hand it to the terrorists - they are making a UNIFIED FRONT against Israel).
RON
You sure you're from Canada??
Hahaha... true enough!!! I read it only because he was coming to my university to give a lecture... after finishing, I didn't go to see him.
RON
Well, has anyone come forward with a reasonable justification for the airport bombing and the naval blockade yet? It is the wide scope of the retaliation that is coming under fire. Isreal has the right to defend itself, but there are no missle attacks coming from anywhere near Beirut. Attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure are irrelavent to Hezbollah's footholds in the South.
It's like if a bunch or hardline republicans decided the only way to stem illegal immigration is to drive down to Arizona and lob bombs over the border. Why would Mexico try to take out LAX, strike at downtown Houston, and seal off US Gulf ports?
So in some ways this is an over-reaction. But the over-reaction must be seen in the context of a country that has lost all patience, that is saying to its neighbors, you are not the only people who can go crazy. You are not the only ones with a right to be unreasonable. We too are capable of extortion, particularly when our existence is so threatened. And this is a kind of extortion. Israel is telling the rest of Lebanon to send its military to the south and take on Hezbollah or else its borders will remain closed. In the end, this could be an opportunity for Lebanon to root out this destabilizing presence. But as others have pointed out, the immediate effect is that Hezbollah will gain sympathy
Overall, some good points.. However, I would say that Israel certainly has more capacity to over-react, and even this over-reaction, is still ultimately restrained... in addition, unfortunately, no one will percieve it the way it needs be.. again, the train of thought in that part of the world isn't condusive to that.. and the global hypocritic sympathy will definitely contribute to this..
RON