It's tough to develop impressions about people over the internet - its an anonymous medium & enables people to interact with folks you may never meet in the real world. After talking to dudes via this crazy board, tho, you can develop a sense of what they're about. I'll say this: Neither JP or Shig come off as some people who want to promote hate or violent action against folks of different creeds. So, Guzzo, I don't think your comments about either them in regards to anti-homosexual sentiments are fair. I've seen both guys use the word "gay" or "fag" on the board, but I'll try to put it into context. When Shig talks like this, he's making fun of the wackos who use these words in ernest. Same for JP. If you or I make a choice not to use these words it's a matter of personal preference & it's something that can't be forced on other people. You might prefer that they not use "fag" or "gay" or whatever in such a casual manner, & you're entitled to say what you want on that, but to accuse either jp or shig of prejudice is unfair & underminds them both.
It's tough to develop impressions about people over the internet - its an anonymous medium & enables people to interact with folks you may never meet in the real world. After talking to dudes via this crazy board, tho, you can develop a sense of what they're about. I'll say this: Neither JP or Shig come off as some people who want to promote hate or violent action against folks of different creeds. So, Guzzo, I don't think your comments about either them in regards to anti-homosexual sentiments are fair. I've seen both guys use the word "gay" or "fag" on the board, but I'll try to put it into context. When Shig talks like this, he's making fun of the wackos who use these words in ernest. Same for JP. If you or I make a choice not to use these words it's a matter of personal preference & it's something that can't be forced on other people. You might prefer that they not use "fag" or "gay" or whatever in such a casual manner, & you're entitled to say what you want on that, but to accuse either of prejudice is unfair & underminds them both.
peace
h
I didn't accuse JP or Shig of prejudice. I did say I can't have a conversatin with JP about homophobia because he is blinded by his relationships with people. For some reason he seems to come across with the same opinion and even the same actions as me however he also seems threatened when I come with a documented example of what I consider homophobia, and its not cause of what was said but rather his relationship to the person cited as an example.
For some people its hard for them to seperate their personal feelings from the topic at hand.
I know now that I can't speak with JP about homophobia because he feels he and his group of peoples are above reproach on the subject.
Shig on the other hand I don't feel I used a homophobic statement against. I called him a bitch and I stand by it. I don't think bitch is a duragatory slang term for gay people. If it belongs to any group its women. But believe me I ain't calling Shig a woman either. I'm calling him an animal below a human unable to decide for himself and quick to puppydog around with other people when they shit talk. Dude almost wagged his tail when he saw me a couple days back.
lets face it you've turned a blind eye towards homophobia.
Stand by your words.
My beef with you is that your efforts toward ending homophobia basically begin and end with this site. Yet you have the fucking stones to say what's quoted above to someone who has lived with - and fought - homophobia all his life.
IMO, using words like gay, ghey, homo, faggy, etc. as synonyms for shitty, wack, bad, crappy, etc, does not promote equality between people of differing sexual orientations. I know they're just words, but words are what we use to communicate & they have ideas and values connected to them. People shouldn't be told how to speak. We have to live with ourselves & and do what makes us comfortable. I've stopped using the word "gay" as a pejortive term because gay people deserve better than to have their lifestyle equated to mundane things. If people are okay using these words as derogatory terms it's their business, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that doing so is nothing less than disrespectful.
IMO, using words like gay, ghey, homo, faggy, etc. as synonyms for shitty, wack, bad, crappy, etc, does not promote equality between people of differing sexual orientations. I know they're just words, but words are what we use to communicate & they have ideas and values connected to them. People shouldn't be told how to speak. We have to live with ourselves & and do what makes us comfortable. I've stopped using the word "gay" as a pejortive term because gay people deserve better than to have their lifestyle equated to mundane things. If people are okay using these words as derogatory terms it's their business, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that doing so is nothing less than disrespectful.
IMO, using words like gay, ghey, homo, faggy, etc. as synonyms for shitty, wack, bad, crappy, etc, does not promote equality between people of differing sexual orientations. I know they're just words, but words are what we use to communicate & they have ideas and values connected to them. People shouldn't be told how to speak. We have to live with ourselves & and do what makes us comfortable. I've stopped using the word "gay" as a pejortive term because gay people deserve better than to have their lifestyle equated to mundane things. If people are okay using these words as derogatory terms it's their business, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that doing so is nothing less than disrespectful.
IMO, using words like gay, ghey, homo, faggy, etc. as synonyms for shitty, wack, bad, crappy, etc, does not promote equality between people of differing sexual orientations. I know they're just words, but words are what we use to communicate & they have ideas and values connected to them. People shouldn't be told how to speak. We have to live with ourselves & and do what makes us comfortable. I've stopped using the word "gay" as a pejortive term because gay people deserve better than to have their lifestyle equated to mundane things. If people are okay using these words as derogatory terms it's their business, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that doing so is nothing less than disrespectful.
IMO, using words like gay, ghey, homo, faggy, etc. as synonyms for shitty, wack, bad, crappy, etc, does not promote equality between people of differing sexual orientations. I know they're just words, but words are what we use to communicate & they have ideas and values connected to them. People shouldn't be told how to speak. We have to live with ourselves & and do what makes us comfortable. I've stopped using the word "gay" as a pejortive term because gay people deserve better than to have their lifestyle equated to mundane things. If people are okay using these words as derogatory terms it's their business, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that doing so is nothing less than disrespectful.
while you all can try to defend the use of these terms it doesn't make the place very gay friendly and has in fact made gay folks stop posting or never post at all, there are a lot of gay folks with crazy knowledge and its our loss
No that's like holloween? Extentions? Cuz it don't look real...
Re: Shig
epiphany worthy post sir.
Re: this thread is gay
Re: yeah context, that's all
Re: they're/you're not gay people or orange people they're just people like your fam, why the need to qualify them as, to judge or categorize like...who wants to be known for that way...
Re: Bravo!
"ew - look at that guy staring at me. Probably a fag - I like totally hate fags. Especially really good looking ones like that, with hot bodies. Fucking faggots!"[/b]
Re: Bravo!
you pick the wrong website if you believe are cruising for gay people deserve equality to hook up with.
trust me I've been banging my head against this wall glory hole for a couple years now
Re:
that all depends if you have left or right-wing views
1) I'd like to see people stop throwing around terms like "gay" and "faggot". I don't think they're defensible on the basis of: A) "I'm not being homophobic" or B) "Gay people call each other fags so it must be ok" C) some other dumb ass excuse.
Bottomline, we're grown folk around here. "Gay" was some shit you used in 5th grade to describe someone's Trapper Keeper. At the point where your twins drop (or the female equivalent), you should outgrow the need to still flex terms like that but obviously, as this site demonstrates again and again, a lot of us are in a severe state of arrested development. I'm neither cosigning nor dismissing Guzzo's points: I just think we're a lot bigger (or should be) from having to resort to dumb ass graemlins that read "ghey."
Don't even get me started on our use of sexist language.
2) Not that I've done it here, but I'll gladly stop bashing (certain) Christians once (certain) Christians start taking a private practice and trying to make it a public policy that infringes on other private practices. I find it ASTOUNDING that anyone even thinks that Christians are really under attack at all. I mean, sure, there's a lot of criticism directed against fundamentalists, but has it harmed the Christian power base in American politics or society? HELL NO.
Anyway, that's my contribution to the 5+ pager this is probably destined to be.
TripleDub: it's threads like these that only 110% back up my previous point: I'll be glad when we stop talking politics around here.
1) I'd like to see people stop throwing around terms like "gay" and "faggot". I don't think they're defensible on the basis of:
A) "I'm not being homophobic" or
B) "Gay people call each other fags so it must be ok"
C) some other dumb ass excuse.
Bottomline, we're grown folk around here. "Gay" was some shit you used in 5th grade to describe someone's Trapper Keeper. At the point where your twins drop (or the female equivalent), you should outgrow the need to still flex terms like that but obviously, as this site demonstrates again and again, a lot of us are in a severe state of arrested development. I'm neither cosigning nor dismissing Guzzo's points: I just think we're a lot bigger (or should be) from having to resort to dumb ass graemlins that read "ghey."
Don't even get me started on our use of sexist language.
2) Not that I've done it here, but I'll gladly stop bashing (certain) Christians once (certain) Christians start taking a private practice and [stop] trying to make it a public policy that infringes on other private practices. I find it ASTOUNDING that anyone even thinks that Christians are really under attack at all. I mean, sure, there's a lot of criticism directed against fundamentalists, but has it harmed the Christian power base in American politics or society? HELL NO.
Anyway, that's my contribution to the 5+ pager this is probably destined to be.
TripleDub: it's threads like these that only 110% back up my previous point: I'll be glad when we stop talking politics around here.
I wholeheartedly agree with the above.
Paycheck:
I really enjoyed reading your post about your brother and various experiences with homosexuality (no ayo ). I too have homosexual family members and I couldn't be happier because of it. I am very grateful that I've grown up in a diverse family (I have three mothers and one father, one of my sisters is white and the other is black, and my brother is 6'10" while I'm 5'7". Figure that out, suckers!). I think your attitude towards this issue is admirable and I genuinely enjoy reading your comments.
Guzzo: You already know how I feel on this issue, but again, I am glad you are concerned about prejudice and discrimination on this site (and in general). Even if you are on a soapbox, I wish others would get up on theirs.
Bottomline, we're grown folk around here. "Gay" was some shit you used in 5th grade to describe someone's Trapper Keeper. At the point where your twins drop (or the female equivalent), you should outgrow the need to still flex terms like that but obviously, as this site demonstrates again and again, a lot of us are in a severe state of arrested development. I'm neither cosigning nor dismissing Guzzo's points: I just think we're a lot bigger (or should be) from having to resort to dumb ass graemlins that read "ghey."
This reminds me of that scene in Beef where they keep cutting back-and-forth between 50 cent and Ja Rule calling each other bitch and faggot and then finally when 50 cent has to outgrow those words he drops the
"I really don't like that guy"
I always took peoples "ghey" talk for tongue-and-cheek. And this isn't necesarilly a good thing, I just always hope/assume that people have the best of intentions when it comes to treating people of varying sexuality. I figure with all that musical knowledge, sneaking a bit of ignorance in there would be difficult.
Sayin though, I don't want to see the sayer graemlin go.
1) I'd like to see people stop throwing around terms like "nigga" and "negro". I don't think they're defensible on the basis of: A) "I'm not being racist" or B) "Black people call each other nigga so it must be ok" C) some other dumb ass excuse like I have black friends or I have a bunch of 2pac CDs (or Richard Pryor records).
Bottomline, we're grown folk around here. "Gay" was some shit you used in 5th grade to describe someone's Trapper Keeper.
That is so true. It was always the kid that got stuck with the Garfield one, too. Like why can't you get G.I. Joe or Transformers like everyone else? Garfield is gay and so is your Trapper Keeper.
TripleDub: it's threads like these that only 110% back up my previous point: I'll be glad when we stop talking politics around here.
If we did that then we'd have to talk about music. What's that all about...
In general, Soulstrut exhibits sexist and homophobic tendencies on a daily basis. It's the weakest thing about the site, justify it anyway your want with you gay friends and all, but it is weak.
Nothing personal, I still love you guys, but that shit is so weak.
Now please deal with my opinion ( and all of the others like mine ) and don't throw a fit now. We are grown up's here... a... sort of.
Yeah, umm "Fags" are ok by me (as is everyone else who isn't out to hurt others) and deserve respect. Thanks.
Here's how it works on Soulstrut:
Black is good as long as it fits into my pre-conceived notion of what that is, and that's rappers and jazz musicians[/b]
Girls are good as long as they are hot and fit into my pre-conceived notion of what they are, which is porn stars, rap video models and hot folk singers[/b]
Fags are bad unless they are related to me or don't fit into my pre-conceived PC notion of who they are and what they prefer to be called[/b]
Jews are ok, but they're not a "real" minority because they look 'White'[/b]
White people are flaming racists unless they happen to be me or my friends and have listened to enough Hip Hop to cancel out a lifetime of conditioning and are henceforth "down-ass brothas"[/b]
Asians are under the radar, unless they're Japanese and like hip hop, in which case they are also flaming racists and bigger culture vultures than Whites, thus making White people blamesless, after all, all White people know that Asians and Blacks are racist too so that makes it OK[/b]
Write it down on a 3"x5" notecard and sit it by your computer. Refer to often.
how do the hyper pc-types here rationalize the misogyny, homonegativity and racism present in so many classic rap records? i find it odd that people who would quickly profess their love for cube or short (or really any rapper ever) would also get worked up over hearing/seeing the words "fag" or "bitch." i'm not saying that i disagree with your position (although i thow around words like that more often than i probably should), just that it seems diametrically opposed to your taste in music.
I still am trying to understand how dudes get worked up about words on a website rather than actual issues. I actually talked about personal experience. No one else in this thread has even approached it.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
My background is that words are words. I learned a long time ago that it's best not to get my thong in a twist over some words. Partially because I was actually called names like "fag" or "nigger lover" and other assorted shit like that. I learned to get over it. I learned not to judge a person because of words they use; I have met a great many people who, because of how they were raised or where they were raised use words that I wouldn't; sometimes, they don't even know it's bad. It's not for me to tell someone how to speak, when they were brought up in a completely different environment from me.
At the end of the day I really can't feel this kind of partial PC bullshit. I mean, the guy who accused me of not believing in equality for Gay people resorts to sexist epithets to further his argument. People brag about their sexual exploits and then ask for the women's side. White guys type Black slang they would never actually say in real life. Wear afro wigs on Haloween or pimp cups. Dudes pick fights with me, when they could've had a field day in the recent Phill Most thread.
I am down to get rid of graemlins, or police language. If that's what will make everyone happy. I'm not fighting for the ability to say "fag". Or use a graemlin. That is the province of these fools who think what happens on soulstrut is somehow bigger or more important than real life. To whom I say, get off the computer. There are so many more productive ways to use your time and admirable morals.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
how do the hyper pc-types here rationalize the misogyny, homonegativity and racism present in so many classic rap records? i find it odd that people who would quickly profess their love for cube or short (or really any rapper ever) would also get worked up over hearing/seeing the words "fag" or "bitch." i'm not saying that i disagree with your position (although i thow around words like that more often than i probably should), just that it seems diametrically opposed to your taste in music.
Dave Hickey, in his essay "Pontormo's Rainbow," says something that might come close to being an answer to your question. He's talking about a campaign waged during his childhood (in the 1950s) to clean up cartoons and cartoon violence. He states that kids know that running over a real cat with a lawnmower would most assuredly result in a lot of blood and one dead cat, whereas Jerry running over Tom with a lawnmower results only in a shaved strip down Tom's back. Which is precisely why it's funny and entertaining: because it's not real.
He goes on to say that, for the vast majority of us, there's a huge difference between what we want to see and what we want to see represented. He extrapolates this to include all visual arts. I'm doing my own extrapolation here when it comes to music, because it applies (at least for me) to certain things.
For the most part, I'm not into hearing sex rhymes, but there are certain guilty pleasures (read: entire Beatnuts releases). And there is quite a bit of rap violence that, for better or worse, I truly enjoy listening to. But I don't ever wanna see that shit play out in the real world. Keepin' it on wax makes it very different to me.
Having said that, I've always been bothered by anti-gay lyrics (which sucks, as a hip-hop/dancehall DJ). I just don't play that shit. I don't want it banned--that's really not my call--but as a DJ, I get to decide what I will and won't play.
And finally: I think folks should feel free to use whatever language they want on this site and out in the world. I just hope they are at least aware of what they're saying. When you call a guy a "bitch," you're feminizing him and implying that women are weak. Several examples of this have been stated earlier in this thread. Like I said: Feel free, but know that you're kinda showin' your ass.
[Wow, that reads all rambly, doesn't it? Sorry if I'm sidetrackin' here.]
Comments
shits heating up again
It's tough to develop impressions about people over the internet - its an anonymous medium & enables people to interact with folks you may never meet in the real world. After talking to dudes via this crazy board, tho, you can develop a sense of what they're about. I'll say this: Neither JP or Shig come off as some people who want to promote hate or violent action against folks of different creeds. So, Guzzo, I don't think your comments about either them in regards to anti-homosexual sentiments are fair. I've seen both guys use the word "gay" or "fag" on the board, but I'll try to put it into context. When Shig talks like this, he's making fun of the wackos who use these words in ernest. Same for JP. If you or I make a choice not to use these words it's a matter of personal preference & it's something that can't be forced on other people. You might prefer that they not use "fag" or "gay" or whatever in such a casual manner, & you're entitled to say what you want on that, but to accuse either jp or shig of prejudice is unfair & underminds them both.
peace
h
the one thing i agree whole-heartedly in this entire thread.
I didn't accuse JP or Shig of prejudice. I did say I can't have a conversatin with JP about homophobia because he is blinded by his relationships with people. For some reason he seems to come across with the same opinion and even the same actions as me however he also seems threatened when I come with a documented example of what I consider homophobia, and its not cause of what was said but rather his relationship to the person cited as an example.
For some people its hard for them to seperate their personal feelings from the topic at hand.
I know now that I can't speak with JP about homophobia because he feels he and his group of peoples are above reproach on the subject.
Shig on the other hand I don't feel I used a homophobic statement against. I called him a bitch and I stand by it. I don't think bitch is a duragatory slang term for gay people. If it belongs to any group its women. But believe me I ain't calling Shig a woman either. I'm calling him an animal below a human unable to decide for himself and quick to puppydog around with other people when they shit talk. Dude almost wagged his tail when he saw me a couple days back.
Stand by your words.
My beef with you is that your efforts toward ending homophobia basically begin and end with this site. Yet you have the fucking stones to say what's quoted above to someone who has lived with - and fought - homophobia all his life.
many gay people do.
Dogophobe
while you all can try to defend the use of these terms it doesn't make the place very gay friendly and has in fact made gay folks stop posting or never post at all, there are a lot of gay folks with crazy knowledge and its our loss
No that's like holloween? Extentions? Cuz it don't look real...
Re: Shig
epiphany worthy post sir.
Re: this thread is gay
Re: yeah context, that's all
Re: they're/you're not gay people or orange people they're just people like your fam, why the need to qualify them as, to judge or categorize like...who wants to be known for that way...
Re: Bravo!
Re: Bravo!
Re:
1) I'd like to see people stop throwing around terms like "gay" and "faggot". I don't think they're defensible on the basis of:
A) "I'm not being homophobic" or
B) "Gay people call each other fags so it must be ok"
C) some other dumb ass excuse.
Bottomline, we're grown folk around here. "Gay" was some shit you used in 5th grade to describe someone's Trapper Keeper. At the point where your twins drop (or the female equivalent), you should outgrow the need to still flex terms like that but obviously, as this site demonstrates again and again, a lot of us are in a severe state of arrested development. I'm neither cosigning nor dismissing Guzzo's points: I just think we're a lot bigger (or should be) from having to resort to dumb ass graemlins that read "ghey."
Don't even get me started on our use of sexist language.
2) Not that I've done it here, but I'll gladly stop bashing (certain) Christians once (certain) Christians start taking a private practice and trying to make it a public policy that infringes on other private practices. I find it ASTOUNDING that anyone even thinks that Christians are really under attack at all. I mean, sure, there's a lot of criticism directed against fundamentalists, but has it harmed the Christian power base in American politics or society? HELL NO.
Anyway, that's my contribution to the 5+ pager this is probably destined to be.
TripleDub: it's threads like these that only 110% back up my previous point: I'll be glad when we stop talking politics around here.
_ Intelligent hoodlum
"my spine allows me to suck my own cock"
_Monch
AYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I wholeheartedly agree with the above.
Paycheck:
I really enjoyed reading your post about your brother and various experiences with homosexuality (no ayo
Guzzo: You already know how I feel on this issue, but again, I am glad you are concerned about prejudice and discrimination on this site (and in general). Even if you are on a soapbox, I wish others would get up on theirs.
"I really don't like that guy"
I always took peoples "ghey" talk for tongue-and-cheek. And this isn't necesarilly a good thing, I just always hope/assume that people have the best of intentions when it comes to treating people of varying sexuality. I figure with all that musical knowledge, sneaking a bit of ignorance in there would be difficult.
Sayin though, I don't want to see the sayer graemlin go.
Here's how it works on Soulstrut:
Black is good
Girls are good
Fags are bad
Jews are ok, but they're not a "real" minority
White people are flaming racists
Asians are under the radar, unless they're Japanese and like hip hop, in which case they are also flaming racists
Write it down on a 3"x5" notecard and sit it by your computer. Refer to often.
That is so true. It was always the kid that got stuck with the Garfield one, too. Like why can't you get G.I. Joe or Transformers like everyone else? Garfield is gay and so is your Trapper Keeper.
If we did that then we'd have to talk about music. What's that all about...
Nothing personal, I still love you guys, but that shit is so weak.
Now please deal with my opinion ( and all of the others like mine ) and don't throw a fit now. We are grown up's here... a... sort of.
ap
Yeah, that about covers it.
I mean, there's so many people on here who don't know shit about music. I guess it follows that many people on here who don't do shit about injustice like to talk about it a lot.
My background is that words are words. I learned a long time ago that it's best not to get my thong in a twist over some words. Partially because I was actually called names like "fag" or "nigger lover" and other assorted shit like that. I learned to get over it. I learned not to judge a person because of words they use; I have met a great many people who, because of how they were raised or where they were raised use words that I wouldn't; sometimes, they don't even know it's bad. It's not for me to tell someone how to speak, when they were brought up in a completely different environment from me.
At the end of the day I really can't feel this kind of partial PC bullshit. I mean, the guy who accused me of not believing in equality for Gay people resorts to sexist epithets to further his argument. People brag about their sexual exploits and then ask for the women's side. White guys type Black slang they would never actually say in real life. Wear afro wigs on Haloween or pimp cups. Dudes pick fights with me, when they could've had a field day in the recent Phill Most thread.
I am down to get rid of graemlins, or police language. If that's what will make everyone happy. I'm not fighting for the ability to say "fag". Or use a graemlin. That is the province of these fools who think what happens on soulstrut is somehow bigger or more important than real life. To whom I say, get off the computer. There are so many more productive ways to use your time and admirable morals.
I am sorry that I lost my temper last night.
I find this strange too. How come no one gets offended by stuff like that? This place is odd sometimes.
Dave Hickey, in his essay "Pontormo's Rainbow," says something that might come close to being an answer to your question. He's talking about a campaign waged during his childhood (in the 1950s) to clean up cartoons and cartoon violence. He states that kids know that running over a real cat with a lawnmower would most assuredly result in a lot of blood and one dead cat, whereas Jerry running over Tom with a lawnmower results only in a shaved strip down Tom's back. Which is precisely why it's funny and entertaining: because it's not real.
He goes on to say that, for the vast majority of us, there's a huge difference between what we want to see and what we want to see represented. He extrapolates this to include all visual arts. I'm doing my own extrapolation here when it comes to music, because it applies (at least for me) to certain things.
For the most part, I'm not into hearing sex rhymes, but there are certain guilty pleasures (read: entire Beatnuts releases). And there is quite a bit of rap violence that, for better or worse, I truly enjoy listening to. But I don't ever wanna see that shit play out in the real world. Keepin' it on wax makes it very different to me.
Having said that, I've always been bothered by anti-gay lyrics (which sucks, as a hip-hop/dancehall DJ). I just don't play that shit. I don't want it banned--that's really not my call--but as a DJ, I get to decide what I will and won't play.
And finally: I think folks should feel free to use whatever language they want on this site and out in the world. I just hope they are at least aware of what they're saying. When you call a guy a "bitch," you're feminizing him and implying that women are weak. Several examples of this have been stated earlier in this thread. Like I said: Feel free, but know that you're kinda showin' your ass.
[Wow, that reads all rambly, doesn't it? Sorry if I'm sidetrackin' here.]